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Nancy Pelosi Says Bipartisan Gun Control Talks Are Underway; Democrats Are Going To Try To Negotiate With Republicans On Gun legislation; Lawmakers Go On Recess Tomorrow, Will They Be Able To Work Over The Phone Or Return To Washington; Guns Outnumber People In America; Many Americans Believe There Should Be Commonsense Gun Reform; Officials Are Focused On Gathering Factual Information Around The Shooting Timeline; Shooter's Grandmother Is In Critical Condition After Being Shot. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 26, 2022 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Xavier Lopez's mother says she will never forget his smile, which could cheer anyone up. He was excited to start middle school, which was only months away. Xavier's mom was there to cheer him on as he received his honor roll certificate. He too was 10-years-old.

Lexi Rubio, 10, was also a start student at Robb Elementary and her parents were also at the school to celebrate her making the all A honor roll and getting a good citizen award hours before she was killed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELIX RUBIO, FATHER OF LEXI RUBIO: I read a journal here recently (inaudible) wanted to go to Australia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (off-camera): She wanted to go to Australia?

KIMBERLY RUBIO, MOTHER OF LEXI RUBIO: She wanted to go to law school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (off-camera): Law school?

K. RUBIO: Yes, at St. Mary's, because that's where I go to.

F. RUBIO: All I can hope is that she's just not a number. Hopefully, something gets resolved. That's all we ask. Hopefully, something gets resolved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (off-camera): I know this is very difficult, but what would you like to get resolved? What would you like to see resolved at this point?

F. RUBIO: Ban violent guns. I'm a cop. I'm a deputy here in Uvalde County. This is enough. This is enough. No one else needs to go through this.

[07:31:15] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:35:28]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The sun rising over the Robb Elementary School. You can see the crosses that were placed here at this memorial overnight. This morning, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that bipartisan gun control talks are now underway. Senate Republicans discuss various gun policies Wednesday, but failed to settle on a consensus.

CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill with the latest on this. There are talks, Lauren, how are they going?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a significant departure yesterday when Senator Chuck Schumer, the Majority Leader, made it clear that he is going to give Democrats some time to try to reach across the aisle, to try to negotiate with their Republican colleagues on gun legislation.

Senator Chris Murphy, a Democrat from Connecticut who is leading this process, told me yesterday he already had had several conversations with Republicans trying to see if there was anything that they could do, whether that was something on background checks or red flag laws, mental health legislation, anything that they could do to try to move the needle forward.

He told me, quote, "He's a sucker for trying to find some kind of bipartisan bill." But like you said, Republicans having a private conversation during their conference lunch yesterday afternoon, but not coming up with any consensus of what their party might be willing to support.

At the end of the day, time can be the enemy here with these kinds of negotiations. And we've seen time and time again, Senator Murphy and others, try to move the ball forward. Also significant yesterday, Senator Kyrsten Sinema, someone who has a strong track record of working across the aisle with her Republican colleagues, said she wants to lead some of these conversations.

As well, we saw her talking on the floor with Republicans, like Senator John Thune, the Republican Whip, as well as Marco Rubio of Florida, someone who wanted to push forward a school safety bill yesterday. So, a lot of impromptu conversations happening.

But lawmakers going on recess after today. So, the question becomes, what can they accomplish next week over the phone? Will they return to Washington with a plan forward? That is a big question that still remains to be seen, John.

BERMAN: If there's a will they can accomplish a lot. We'll see. It's good that the discussions are happening. We'll see where it goes from here. Lauren Fox, thank you so much.

KEILAR: So while lawmakers remain divided on Capitol Hill, the fact remains that an overwhelming majority of American's support at least some gun control measures. So, why hasn't Congress acted?

John Avlon with our Reality Check.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Nineteen children murdered in their classroom. Look at their faces, say their names and know that we do not have to accept this as normal in America.

Thoughts and prayers are not enough. And it's not politicizing a tragedy to ask what we can do to make this heartbreak happen less. That's the least we can do in a self-governing society, right? Because this is not inevitable. It's a choice. You know that "ONION" headline they reprint after every major mass shooting, "No Way To Prevent This, Says only nation where this regularly happens."

That's the dark truth. After all, we live in a country where guns outnumber people. America has more guns per person than Yemen, which is almost eight years into a civil war. And all those guns aren't keeping us safe. We're the world leader in mass shootings. In fact, guns account for 79 percent of all homicides in America in 2020. Compare that to just 4 percent in the U.K., 13 percent in Australia, 37 percent in Canada.

But here's the worst step, guns are now the leading cause of death among children in America, that's according to the "New England Journal of Medicine." This isn't pro-life, this isn't consistent with the vision of the founders. The Second Amendments call for a well- regulated militia or even frontier gun culture, where you had to leave your guns at the town line.

It comes about because we've twisted our gun laws to disconnect from any concept of common sense. Now, if you talk about limiting specific weapons these days you'll get called anti-state socialist or worse. So, nobody better mention that the machine gun was heavily regulated in the 1930s with the support of the NRA.

Another new article of gun faith is the right to walk around town carrying a weapon of war, but that definitely wasn't the case when the Black Panthers did it in the late 1960s. Listen to then-California Governor Ronald Reagan.

[07:40:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN (R), GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: There is absolutely no reason why out on the streets civilians should be carrying a loaded weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: And more recently, our original Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia freely acknowledged the legitimacy of, quote, "Longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill. Where laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive place, such as schools and government buildings. Where laws composing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." So, stop pretending there's nothing we can do in the face of kids getting killed at school, that this is some inevitable byproduct of freedom, because that's B.S.

Not only is there plenty of room for common-sense gun reforms, there is much more common ground than you might think.

Now check it out, this Pew Survey from 2021 shows that 85 percent of Republicans and 90 percent of Democrats support preventing people with mental illness from buying guns. Common sense, right?

Not only that, 70 percent of Republicans and 92 percent of Democrats support background checks for buying weapons at gun shows and private sales, 66 percent of all Americans support creating a federal gun database to track gun sales, 64 percent of Americans support banning high-capacity ammunition magazines and 63 percent of Americans support banning assault-style weapons, a policy that our country had in place from '94 to 2004, but was allowed to sunset, after which mass shootings rose dramatically.

There's also broad agreement that allowing people to carry concealed weapons without a permit is a terrible idea. And we'll if the Supreme Court agrees in a few weeks.

Finally, according to the Quinnipiac poll from last year, 74 percent of Americans support red flag laws, which allow police or family members to petition a judge to remove guns from a person who's deemed to be dangerous to themselves or others. And some conservatives in Congress have indicated some openness here.

Now look, I know, cynicism passes for wisdom in Washington for a reason. No bipartisan gun reforms passed after Sandy Hook, so why would this time be different? Well, maybe because we've a decade more of mass shootings.

Because the NRA has been hobbled by self-inflicted scandals. And because these stats are evidence that there is common ground to be found. Modest actions that could lower the number of gun deaths in America, entirely consistent with the Second Amendment.

The only question is whether members of Congress will have the courage to listen to the majority of Americans. It's a test of our decency as well as a test for our democracy.

And that's your Reality Check.

KEILAR: Test of our humanity.

AVLON: Yes.

KEILAR: John Avlon, thank you. Berman?

BERMAN: All right, we're getting new details on what happened here at the Robb Elementary School as parents did arrive on the scene as this massacre was still happening. Joining me now is Lieutenant Chris Olivarez, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. Lieutenant, thank you so much for being with us. We have learned more details. We are still looking to fill in some of the gaps here, so I do appreciate your help.

I do understand when the shooter arrived here you have said he was engaged by a school resource officer. Engaged how?

LIEUTENANT CHRIS OLIVAREZ, SPOKESMAN FOR TEXAS DEPT. OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Right. So, good morning. So, yes, as you mentioned of course, our main focus right now as the lead investigative agency is to provide factual information, gather the facts.

Right now what we're trying to establish and corroborate exactly what was that role for that initial school resource officer. Was he responding in his vehicle? Was he off his vehicle? What was the distance between him and the shooter? So, we're trying to establish exactly what was his role and did he encounter the shooter.

So, we spoke to that school resource officer yesterday evening, our Texas Rangers did an interview with him. So, I'm hoping to receive updated information today at some point in regards to what was his exact role when initially saw the shooter prior to going into the school.

BERMAN: Was he armed?

OLIVAREZ: Yes. So, these police officers. Their title is a school resource officer. They are assigned to particular schools, but they are armed. They are commissioned police officers.

BERMAN: And are you aware at this point if he did fire his weapon?

OLIVAREZ: At this point, we are not. Initially, there was information, there was preliminary reports that as far as engagement there was an encounter between him and the shooter at some point, where there was gunfire exchanged.

But, right now we are trying to corroborate that information. That's why we spoke to the officer yesterday as part of this investigation, because again, we want to provide factual information to make sure we corroborate every statement, every, as far as anybody that's making statements out there, to corroborate what's ever being shared.

So, that's why it's very important also for anybody, anyone out there that has heard or witnessed anything to contact the Texas Department of Public Safety so we can speak to them and corroborate their statements.

BERMAN: I understand that. And that's what we want. We want the accurate information.

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: So at this point what you're telling me is the officer was armed. Unclear if he did fire his weapon. I do want to ask you about --

OLIVAREZ: Yes.

BERMAN: -- the door to the school. The shooter gets into the school. Was the door locked?

OLIVAREZ: So, what we know right now, and again, everything is still preliminary. We're still trying to establish what security measures were in place. We do know for a fact that the shooter was able to make entry into that school unimpeded as far as there was no type of security as far as locking mechanisms at that initial doorway.

So, we're trying to establish exactly what were the policies, what were the procedures for the school. So, we're working closely with the school district, with the superintendents to see what the policies were in place.

But also one thing I want to add too with that initial school resource officer, once we're able to corroborate exactly what was his role, we knew -- we do know for a fact that the shooter was carrying a backpack prior to entering the school. And that backpack was left at the doorway prior to entering.

And so, we know that backpack contained numerous magazines, numerous rounds of ammunition. So, that ammo could have been used to carry out potential killings inside that school. So, that's one key point that I want to point out, that that backpack was left behind.

BERMAN: Understand. The backpack was left behind. So, as bad as it was, what happened here, what you're saying is it could have been even worse. The door was not locked, the shooter gets in.

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: We do understand that then was an encounter with other law enforcement officers, who had arrived on the scene, where shots were exchanged back and forth.

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: Can you tell us definitively, was that before after he entered the building?

OLIVAREZ: So, when the initial school resource officer arrived on scene there were several other police officers from Uvalde that arrived as well immediately. And as that gunman entered the school way -- entered that hallway of the school, those police officers also followed right behind that shooter. At that point, there was gunfire exchanged.

They were met with gunfire upon entering the school. Those two police officers were shot. At that point, the gunman was able to barricade himself inside the classroom in which he carried out those mass killings, where 19 children were killed as well as the two teachers.

BERMAN: Again, and it's still chilling to hear you say that. But, the shots themselves --

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: -- were exchanged inside the school, correct?

OLIVAREZ: Right. So, we're also trying to establish also as far as how far were those officers inside the school. Did this occur right at the doorway or were they able to make entry? And if they did make entry, how far were they inside the school prior to those shots going off? But we do know for a fact and I can tell you factually, is that those officers were shot by the gunman upon entering the school.

BERMAN: What's their condition this morning?

OLIVAREZ: So, they sustained non-life-threatening injuries, the officers that were involved, as well as the Border Patrol agent. They all have been released from the hospital.

So, again, we're trying to speak to those individuals as well and corroborate any information as far as their role. But I can tell you for a fact, as I mentioned, they were met with gunfire. They did enter that school.

BERMAN: OK. The shooter barricaded himself inside the classroom. Barricaded himself how, exactly?

OLIVAREZ: So, what we do know is that the gunman was able to make entry into the classroom. We're still trying to establish if there was any type of locking mechanisms on the doorway from the inside of the classroom, because the gunman was able to barricade himself.

We know there was adjoining classrooms where he was barricading himself and that's where he was able to carry out that mass shooting where also there were 17 injured in that close proximity of that -- of that classroom. So, again, trying to establish exactly how he was able to barricade himself in that classroom.

We know that the initial -- well, actually the secondary response team or tactical team that was comprised of Border Patrol, local police officers also county deputies, were challenged at that doorway. They were unable to make initial entry.

But again, at that point, they were able to successfully force their way into that doorway, into that classroom, where they were able to shoot and kill the shooter before he could carry out any other potential killings.

BERMAN: I actually -- when you say barricaded, it indicates that somehow he created a literal barrier to entry, a physical barrier, either by locking or putting something in the way of the door.

[07:50:10]

How -- to what extent did that happen.

OLIVAREZ: Right. That's correct. Right, so correct. You're right on point --

BERMAN: So, he actually put -- he put things up?

OLIVAREZ: -- with that. So again, we're trying to establish -- well, what I mean by barricade is what I'm trying to -- what I'm referring to is that he barricaded himself in the classroom.

That could have been by locking the classroom from the inside where no one could get -- make entry into that classroom. So, we do know for a fact that those response team, that secondary response team that arrived on scene, tried to make entry into the classroom, they were challenged.

And what I mean by that, they were met with gunfire. They were trying to get into that classroom. So, we're trying to establish if that classroom was locked. And if it was locked, was there some type of a barricade? Was there some type of locking mechanism that did not allow those officers to make entry initially? But they were able, by force, to make entry into that classroom.

BERMAN: Ultimately, they were able by force. OK, the shooter is now inside the classroom, these two adjoining classrooms.

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: How long was he in there?

OLIVAREZ: Right. So, I understand that's what everyone wants to know is a timeline. We're trying to establish a timeline from the initial shooting with the grandmother to the point where the shooter was killed. And also, in between that. So, we're trying to establish every single timeline, how -- as far as how long the shooter was inside the classroom, how long did the shooting take place.

But as of right now we have not been able to establish that. We want to provide factual information as opposed to just providing timelines that are preliminary. We estimate anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour. That was a statement that was made by our director of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

But, again, we're trying to establish was that comprised of from the time of the initial shooting to where the suspect was killed? Or was that from when the suspect arrived at the school?

So, again, a lot of information that we're trying to corroborate so we can provide that actual information to the viewers and to everyone else. And also to the victims of the families.

BERMAN: And I -- OK, and I do understand that. And all of my questions are just trying to -- trying to provide the biggest, most complete picture to the families --

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: -- to the country as to what happened here. You say 40 to 60 minutes. There's some question about whether that's from when the shooter arrived or when got into the classroom.

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: It's still a long time. Why did it take as long as it did for the tactical team to go in?

OLIVAREZ: Well what they tell us that too (ph), that we know several officers were off-duty and they still responded to the scene. Again, trying to establish exactly the timeline as far as the response time.

We know that officers were on scene, as I mentioned earlier, we had the school resource officer that was initially on scene, still again trying to establish his role. And we had secondary officers that arrived on scene that were actually met with gunfire upon entering the school. So, we know law enforcement was there. There was an immediate presence from law enforcement.

Again, trying to establish a timeline, we need to gather all those facts, working with FBI trying to gather surveillance video, talking to witnesses. So again, right now we do not have an accurate or concrete timeline to provide to say the gunman was in the school for this period. So, we want to provide that factual information once we're able to obtain that.

BERMAN: I do understand. But, there was a period of time when the gunman was in the school and there were law enforcement officers on scene. And those law enforcement officers that were here during that period were not going in. Correct?

OLIVAREZ: Well, as I mentioned, there were two officers that did make entry when that shooter was making entry into that school-way. So, there was an immediate response. And right after that, we had a special response team that arrived, as I mentioned earlier, that was comprised of federal law enforcement officers, local police officers, a county deputy, they all made entry into that school.

Then you had other officers there that were trying to evacuate children and teachers by breaking windows around the school trying to pull children and teachers from those windows, trying to evacuate them to preserve any further loss of life. So, there was immediate response. But again, trying to establish exact timeline, we're still working on that right now. That's all part of the investigation.

BERMAN: Understood. Again, what I was just trying to establish is between the time when those officers were first met with gunfire and then the attempt that did ultimately break down the door, what was the nature of that pause between those two periods? That's what I'm trying to get at there. And it is during that period that we are now hearing stories about parents who arrived on the scene.

"The Washington Post" spoke to Javier Cazares, who is the father of Jacqueline Cazares who was killed here. And Javier told "The Washington Post," he says, "There were five or six of us fathers hearing the gunshots and police officers were telling us to move back. We didn't care about us. We wanted to storm the building. We were saying, let's go, because that's how worried we were and we wanted to get our babies out."

[07:55:02]

So these fathers were willing to go in. Why were they stopped?

OLIVAREZ: Right. I can tell you right now, as a father myself, I would want to go in too. But, it's a volatile situation. We have an active shooter situation. We're trying to preserve any further loss of life. We cannot have, and as much as they want to go into that school, we cannot have individuals go into that school, especially if they're not armed.

So, we also have officers that arrive on scene. There's so many different components involved in an active shooter situation. We have officers that arrive on scene trying to set up a perimeter, so we cannot have any other individuals try to go into that school. But, I understand and I completely understand, because I can tell you as a father myself I would want to go into that school whether I was armed or not armed to save my child.

But again, it's a very volatile situation. There's so many components involved. A lot of unanswered questions. And that's what we're trying to provide by doing a thorough investigation.

BERMAN: What video evidence do you have from the scene?

OLIVAREZ: So, as of right now we're working with FBI. FBI is trying obtain surveillance video from the school. They're doing digital, cell phone forensics as well. And what I mean by that, also trying to establish or obtain information from the suspect's phone if there was any type of social media post that were -- that was posted. Any other facts that would help the case.

And as -- in terms as far if there any indicators for this shooter leading up to this mass shooting. So again, trying to establish and get all that information, all those facts, all that evidence, talking to witnesses. And also, what's going to be a key witness to this investigation as well is the grandmother.

So, we're -- our prayers are with her. We're hoping that she pulls through. She is critical at this time. But she will be a key witness to this investigation and she'll be able to tell us the history of her grandson. And then also if there was any indicators prior to this mass shooting.

BERMAN: Did the school have surveillance video?

OLIVAREZ: From what we understand right now, yes. And that's what the FBI is working on right now. I can't get into detail because that is a component, that is something that they're trying to establish as well. That's part of their investigative efforts. But, once we're able to obtain all that information and put it together, we will have accurate information that we can provide as part of this investigation.

BERMAN: All right, Lieutenant Chris Olivarez, I do appreciate you being with us. Again, this isn't about second-guessing. This is about trying to understand --

OLIVAREZ: Right.

BERMAN: -- what happened. The families, as you well know, have questions. You've been here, you've been on the ground. We all appreciate your continued willingness to talk to us so much. And we look forward to speaking with you again.

OLIVAREZ: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, the father of Uvalde Elementary School shooting victim, 10-year-old Amerie Jo Garza spoke to CNN about the pain that he's going through after the loss of his beloved daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGEL GARZA, SHOOTING VICTIM'S FATHER: I can look at this girl (inaudible). Oh, my baby. How do you shoot my baby?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: How could you shoot my baby. More from this heartbreaking interview ahead.

[07:58:18]

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