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Ex-Aide: Trump, Meadows Knew of Violence Potential Prior to Attack. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired June 29, 2022 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to viewers here in the U.S. and around the world. It is Wednesday, June 29, and I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman this morning.

[05:59:45]

Former President Donald Trump in significantly more legal jeopardy today than he was this time yesterday after explosive testimony from a former top staffer to chief of staff Mark Meadows, who had incredible access at the White House.

Cassidy Hutchinson, a once loyal and trusted insider in the Trump White House, delivered blockbuster testimony before the January 6th Committee, painting a damning portrait of an unhinged Trump before and during the Capitol attack. She described a volatile and irate president who knew the crowd was armed and still wanted them to have access to the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, You know, I don't "F"-ing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Taking the "F"-ing mags away. Let my people in. They can march the Capitol from here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, you will hear from an array of attorneys, including several former federal prosecutors, who will explain why that exchange, the one you just heard there, puts the former president in a different legal category.

And there's more. According to Hutchinson's testimony, former White House counsel Pat Cipollone warned about the criminal liability that Trump and others might face saying, quote, "We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable."

And this morning a new possible avenue of investigation, witness tampering. This after Vice Chair Liz Cheney revealed messages received by some witnesses before their depositions.

KEILAR: Jessica Schneider begins our coverage from Washington on this. This was a bombshell hearing, Jess. JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It was, Brianna. Cassidy

Hutchinson is just 26 years old, but she had that up close and unparalleled access to the president and top White House officials in those final months of Trump's term.

She was the top aide to chief of staff Mark Meadows, and with her office just steps from the West Wing, she witnessed stunning interactions surrounding January 6th.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUTCHINSON: That evening was the first moment that I remember feeling scared and nervous for what could happen on January 6th, and I had a deeper concern for what was happening with the planning aspects of it.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Cassidy Hutchinson chronicling the days and hours leading up to the January 6 Capitol attack. The former senior aide to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows recalling a meeting between Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows on January 2.

HUTCHINSON: I remember looking at him saying, Rudy, Could you explain what's happening on the 6th? And he had responded something to the effect of, We're going to the Capitol. It's going to be great. The president is going to be there. He's going to look powerful.

I went back up to our office, and I found Mr. Meadows in his office on the couch. He was scrolling through his phone. I remember leaning against the doorway and saying, "I just had an interesting conversation with Rudy, Mark. Sounds like we're going to go to the Capitol."

He didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, There's a lot going on, Cass, but I don't know. Things might get real, real bad on January 6th.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): The White House counsel's office was gravely concerned about then-President Donald Trump's speech and desire to march to the Capitol, according to Hutchinson.

HUTCHINSON: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of, Please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): As the rioters were storming the Capitol, Hutchinson testified Trump was cheering them on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Agreeing with the chants to, quote, "Hang Mike Pence." HUTCHINSON: Mark had responded something to the effect of, You heard

him, Pat. He thinks Mike deserves it. He doesn't think they're doing anything wrong.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): She says Cipollone replied.

HUTCHINSON: People are going to die, and the blood's going to be on your "F"-ing hands.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Hutchinson testifying in the clearest detail to date about Trump's desire to lead the crowd to the Capitol, despite warnings that many present were armed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had Glock-style pistols in their waistbands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eighty-seven thirty-six with the message, that subject, weapon on his right hip. He's in the tree.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Hutchinson recalled that before the president took the stage, he insisted that metal detectors be removed and individuals with weapons be allowed in to fill the crowd and eventually march to the Capitol.

HUTCHINSON: He was very concerned about the shot, meaning the photograph that we would get because the rally space wasn't full.

I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, I don't "F"-ing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the "F"-ing mags away. Let my people in. They can march the Capitol from here.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Hutchinson said Trump took the stage thinking that Meadows was still figuring out a way for Trump to go to the Capitol after his speech. She added that Trump got into his SUV after his speech and was seen in this video, presented by the committee, driving away.

Hutchinson recalling a conversation back at the White House with then- deputy chief of staff Tony Ornato about an alleged altercation in the SUV between Trump and his Secret Service agent, Robert Engel, when he learned that they would not be taking him to the Capitol.

[06:05:05]

HUTCHINSON: The president said something to the effect of, I'm the "F"-ing president. Take me up to the Capitol now, to which Bobby responded, Sir, we have to go back to the West Wing.

The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol.

Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel. and when Mr. Ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles. SCHNEIDER (voice-over): A Secret Service official familiar with the

matter told CNN that Ornato denies telling Hutchinson that Trump grabbed the steering wheel or agent.

The Secret Service notified the Select Committee after Hutchinson's testimony that the agents involved are prepared to testify under oath that the incident did not occur.

The committee standing behind Hutchinson's account while encouraging others with information to come forward.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Look, I believe Cassidy Hutchinson. I think she's a very -- a very smart, very capable, very honest individual. She has no incentive to make up something that isn't true.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: The committee also says it has evidence that has emerged of witness tampering. Vice Chair Liz Cheney presented several messages from witnesses, saying they've been pressured from Trump allies to "say the right thing."

Cheney now says the committee is taking it seriously, and she even indicated they're looking into next steps, something that could potentially indicate a possible criminal referral for witness tampering -- John and Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Jessica Schneider, thank you for that report.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, "EARLY START" anchor and attorney at law, Laura Jarrett; state attorney in Palm Beach County, Florida, Dave Aronberg; CNN law enforcement analyst and former Secret Service agent Jonathan Wackrow; and CNN political correspondent for "The Hill," Amie Parnes.

I'd like to look at this and ask, what's different this morning than yesterday? Laura, I want to read you this sentence from Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. This is something she said she heard, something to the effect of, from former President Trump, before his speech to the marchers who wept up to the Capitol; he said, "You know, I don't 'F'-ing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the 'F'-ing mags away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here."

LAURA JARRETT, CNN ANCHOR: It's one of the more disturbing and perhaps legally consequential pieces of testimony yesterday. You know, there was -- there was so much there that's just sort of off-the-wall crazy.

But that piece right there, I think, is what makes an essential connection that had yet to be made, which was he was aware. He had advanced awareness that the supporters were armed, and yet sent them down to the Capitol anyway. And not only sent them down, wanted to go down himself.

Which I think is part of the reason you have the former White House counsel running around with his hair on fire, telling Hutchinson, at least according to her testimony, that, We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if he goes down there.

Because the White House counsel is there to see around corners. And what he sees coming is a really bad train for all of them if the president of the United States ends up going down there and participates in what ends up being a violent insurrection, which multiple people apparently knew had the ability to turn violent.

KEILAR: It goes without question, Dave, what did the president know and when did he know it? And he knew they were armed. He knew it before they were going to the Capitol. He also knew it before he told them to fight like hell and to head for the Capitol. How problematic is that for him?

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: It's very problematic. And he, according to the testimony, wanted to get rid of the metal detectors, so that they could descend on the Capitol and do what? He said --

KEILAR: Well, so they could descend on the Ellipse, right, to get into his --

ARONBERG: Right, but --

KEILAR: -- his rally, so then they could go to the Capitol.

ARONBERG: Correct, but he wanted to march with them to the Capitol, and he wanted them to remain armed.

KEILAR: Yes.

ARONBERG: Because he said they were not a threat to him. Well, who were they a threat to? The people counting the votes.

So this moves the needle for prosecutors if they want to charge him with obstruction of an official proceeding or conspiracy against the United States. It also puts another charge possibly on the table: incitement of a riot. That's hard to do, because you have broad First Amendment protections. But now we see that he may have intended to incite imminent unlawful activity.

KEILAR: How much does that matter that he said, They're not a threat to me? I mean, we know what he's saying. He's saying they're a threat to someone else. But he didn't necessarily say that. She didn't testify that he said that. Does that -- does that matter? How far does that go?

ARONBERG: Well, it goes to criminal intent. And ultimately, prosecutors are going to have to take all the evidence and decide whether to charge one of these serious crimes.

But what the power of this testimony does is that it's the first time you top -- tie Donald Trump directly to the mob on that day. This is going to leave a lot more ketchup stains, I think, on the walls of Mar-a-Lago. BERMAN: And that's what I'm getting at here. What is the legal

jeopardy he's in this morning that he wasn't yesterday? Now you have testimony that says he had foreknowledge of the violence or the possibility for violence. You have a witness saying she heard him say that out loud.

[06:10:10]

Does it open up new charges? Possibly you're saying yes, it's the incitement charge. Maybe seditious conspiracy, which were harder cases to make before this, yes?

ARONBERG: Correct. Seditious conspiracy would be the hardest one. It's an agreement with other people to use violence to stop a lawful government function, but it's not impossible.

I thought beforehand incitement of a riot would be off the table. I mean, there's a broad protection under the First Amendment. But with this testimony, everything is back on the table, and it's up to Merrick Garland whether he has the stomach for this fight.

KEILAR: It -- you know, we always say hindsight is 20/20. Well, it turns out foresight appears to be 20/20 with what so many folks at the White House knew that day.

AMIE PARNES, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE HILL": Exactly. It's funny, it's like everyone knew how bad things were in the White House, how he has these, like, fits of rage, the former president; how he's able to be this unstable man.

And yet, we have this clear picture now of the final days in office, and who he was; and what he was thinking; and what he's feeling; and how he's throwing things against the wall; and how he's trying to, you know, control where his Secret Service detail is going; and how he's expressing how angry he is that he's not in on it.

BERMAN: Amie, my question to you politically here is Republicans watching this, again, what's different this morning than it was yesterday? I don't know that you ever expect people to come out and say "Donald Trump is terrible," who have been supporting him all this time. But does it shift, maybe, some of their passion, some of what they're thinking for 2024?

PARNES: I think there are some hardliners who still will be for him no matter what, they are baked in, not going anywhere.

But I did hear from people yesterday, supporters of his who were a little bit concerned, who said this is a little bit too close to the vest. It's a little too damning. It's coming from one -- one of his loyalists, who worked inside the White House, who heard directly from him.

And so it opens up new prospects for other people, like maybe a Florida Governor DeSantis, who is itching to get into the race and his supporters. I know I heard from some of them yesterday who were kind of, you know, champing at the bit waiting, licking their chops and excited by the prospect.

BERMAN: Really? You heard DeSantis supporters watching this, saying basically, This is good for us?

PARNES: Yes. I mean, behind the scenes if they're being honest, they will tell you that, you know, this was a good day for them.

JARRETT: You wonder is who the storyteller is matters here. You know, she's relatively soft-spoken. She's not hysterical. She's telling it, as we were talking about off-camera, in such a composed way, juxtaposing to the chaos and just utter, like, nonsense that she's describing. She's so put together.

And she is -- I mean, she's a true believer. This is someone who worked for Representative Scalise. This is someone who worked for Representative Meadows. This is -- this is not, you know, someone who's sort of half in and half out. She was all the way MAGA and has managed to do this at the young age of 26, knowing what the repercussions are for her.

She knows she's already received threats. She knows, you know, she's going to be persona non grata. Trump is tweeting about her. So this couldn't have been an easy lift for her. And so perhaps that gives some -- lends some credibility to the fact that someone who had something to lose did this.

PARNES: Definitely. I think she was a credible witness. That was -- that was the main takeaway from yesterday.

KEILAR: Yes. Very credible. So I think Liz Cheney has tweeted something.

BERMAN: Yes, I wish I had foresight. I don't know what this says, so I'm reading this out loud for the first time. Liz Cheney just tweeted, "As we heard yesterday, White House counsel Pat Cipollone had significant concerns re. Trump's January 6th activities. It's time for Mr. Cipollone to testify on the record. Any concerns he has about the institutional interests of his prior office are outweighed by the need for his testimony."

Look, obviously, one of the reasons they wanted Cassidy Hutchinson up there was to put pressure on some of the people who have been reluctant. Liz Cheney said as much yesterday. Do you reasonably think they feel more pressure today to testify?

ARONBERG: Absolutely. You have this 25-year-old who has more courage than any of these older, more experienced MAGA leaders like Pat Cipollone, like Mark Meadows, who's hiding from subpoenas, and who wanted a pardon from his actions.

Now, Cipollone is really important, but he may try to avoid a subpoena. He may try to claim attorney/client privilege. But ultimately, there's a crime/fraud exception. You can't use attorney- client privilege to hide a crime. And as Pat Cipollone said to others, there are a lot of criming going on here. KEILAR: Jonathan Wackrow, to you, Cassidy Hutchinson describes a

situation where Mark Meadows kind of leaves it to the Secret Service detail to break the news to Trump, Hey, you're not going up to the Capitol.

And what she hears -- and it's secondhand -- but what she hears about what then ensues is that Trump actually lunges to try to get the steering wheel and that he -- there's actually sort of an altercation with his Secret Service detail. There is reaction from the Secret Service. What do you make of all of this?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, listen, the -- the testimony was stunning, but we're seeing that pushback by the Secret Service now. The truth will come out, right?

[06:15:04]

The Secret Service said that those agents are willing to testify under oath and give their side of the story.

But what I don't want lost in all of that, because I think that that back and forth is a little bit of a distraction. The real point here is that there was a decision made by the special agent in charge at that moment not to go to the Capitol. Why?

The reason being is because, based upon the Secret Service threat methodology, the way that they conduct their protective operations, the U.S. Capitol was starting to deteriorate. The crowds, the -- the protesters, the rioters that were going, they knew that the Capitol was becoming destabilized.

You never take the president into an environment that would be a danger to him or others. So they knew that. This is basically part of the protective methodology that the Secret Service deploys everywhere.

So this was a factual decision based upon real-time intelligence at the moment not to go to the Capitol, but to go to -- back to the White House and then reassess what the next moves were.

BERMAN: The physics of the SUV itself, a lot of people, Jonathan, have been wondering if it's even possible for someone, sitting where the president was, to lunge at the wheel or touch the Secret Service agent there. Based on your experience, possible?

WACKROW: There is a possibility, but I just think that the -- what happened inside that vehicle, you know, there's a lot of daylight between both sides right now in terms of what actually happened.

We do know that -- from previous testimony that the special agent in charge, Bobby Engel, did say that there was a -- you know, a disagreement between the president and himself.

But this is where the protective model worked for the Secret Service. Right? We don't take direction by a protectee. We operate in a threat- based methodology that always keeps the protectees safe and secure regardless of what they want to do. Right? They want to take the mags down, that's not something -- this is why we don't let presidents dictate security protocols, because they have different motivations and intent.

The Secret Service is there to protect those individuals, that crowd, you know, from any types of threats. And they keep -- they have to do that job, you know, uninfluenced by other factors.

BERMAN: Laura, just one cleanup point here on the law here. Hutchinson testified what she heard --

JARRETT: Yes.

BERMAN: -- about what happened in that SUV.

JARRETT: Yes.

BERMAN: -- not what she saw or not what did happen.

JARRET: And her lawyer has been -- was tweeting last night about that right away. As soon as all of this background, I should mention, not on the record but on background pushback came from Secret Service about -- or the testimony, he said, Look, she's testifying what Ornato told her, as opposed to what she saw or what she observed. Her testimony is -- is insulated from anything like that.

But it's -- there's still going to need to be some clarification, I think, on the record from Secret Service about what they're saying. Are they saying this simply did not happen, or are they saying that she simply wasn't told that this happened? There's going to have to be, I think, some more clarification on that.

ARONBERG: It would be great if they testified under oath, under penalties of perjury like she did. And then it could be used later in a criminal trial, possibly against Donald Trump, because it's not hearsay if they were in the car when it happened.

BERMAN: And the committee should want to get all the information they can get in this case.

Thank you all for being with us this morning.

Ahead, we are going to speak with a member of the January 6th Committee, Congressman Pete Aguilar, his reaction to the testimony. And, again, what did Liz Cheney mean when she teased out the possibility of witness tampering? Much more on that.

So he was attacked by rioters and died the next day. Now the brothers of Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick join us with their reaction to this new testimony.

And two men charged now in the deaths of 51 migrants in Texas. We have the latest on the investigation.

KEILAR: Plus, Christiane Amanpour, one-on-one with Ukraine's first lady on her personal struggles during the war with Russia.

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[06:23:10]

KEILAR: Cassidy Hutchinson, who was an aide to former President Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows, revealing new details, alleging that Trump knew his supporters at the rally were armed before they went to the Capitol; before he told them to fight like hell and head to the Capitol.

Joining us now are Ken and Craig Sicknick. They are the brothers of fallen Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who was assaulted during the Capitol riot, later suffered strokes, and died of natural causes the following day.

Ken, to you first. What was the toughest thing that you learned yesterday?

KEN SICKNICK, BROTHER OF OFFICER: Actually, none of it was new to me. I mean, I knew from -- just from stories that Trump had a temper. I knew of the weapons.

I didn't know that he was asking them to let these people go through the magnetometers, but I knew that the weapons were on the site.

That's been one of the stand-by arguments from his supporters, saying there were no weapons. It was completely peaceful. I know from a very good source that there was a roomful of weapons that were confiscated during the riots.

So -- but the events leading up to it, the fact that Trump did absolutely nothing to stop the riots, he knew they were happening, it's upsetting. My brother could still be here if he wasn't in front of the Capitol building, defending it.

BERMAN: Craig, the testimony from Hutchinson was that Trump was told that there were people that were armed there but said, They're not here to hurt me. He said they can then go march to the Capitol.

To hear him say, They're not here to hurt me, how did that make you feel?

[06:25:09]

CRAIG SICKNICK, BROTHER OF OFFICER: Angry. It's astonishing that so many people are following this demagogue, who apparently, it's all about him. No if's, and's or but's. Doesn't matter what happens to anybody else, doesn't matter if family members or others are killed. as long as Trump gets what he wants, everything is good. If he doesn't, he gets angry.

What does that tell us about him as a person? Why would people continue to follow him? It boggles the mind.

KEILAR: I think, Ken, that was -- that was one of the very new things, right? Was that he said, They're not here to injure me. They're not going to hurt me. And he didn't say that they're here to injure someone else, but is

that what you took from it? That he was fine with them going to the Capitol and injuring whoever was in his way to get to the Capitol?

K. SICKNICK: I mean, that can be inferred. I don't know exactly what he meant. Finding out the information about who this guy is, the more information you get, the more it kind of narrows in that he probably was just thinking of himself and didn't care if anybody else got hurt. If he knew people had guns, and sharpened flag poles, and tasers, and chemical spray, why would he not, at that point, tell the crowds while he's still in front of them, Hey, listen, let's do this peacefully. We don't need to invade the Capitol. We don't need to injure, I think it's over 140 police officers that were injured. I've met many of them. And including one police officer who subsequently died, my brother.

BERMAN: Ken, you were with your mother in the car, I think, listening to part of this hearing. How did she react to hearing this?

K. SICKNICK: There was -- there was one moment, and we're trying to recall what the moment was, but I look over to her; and she has a tissue to her eye. She's crying.

BERMAN: Do you know -- I know you can't remember the specific moment, but did she say why this was getting to her the way it was?

K. SICKNICK: Because of -- that, you know, just hearing that he was doing nothing to stop this. That's -- I think that that's probably what the -- in general why she -- why she ended up getting real upset.

KEILAR: Craig, what was listening to this hearing like, compared to listening to some of the others?

C. SICKNICK: It's a constant roller-coaster of emotions. I mean, you see -- you speak to some people who tried to do the right thing, tried to stop what's going on.

Unfortunately, the person in charge was, you know, above the law, literally, and apparently continues to be so. Let's see if that changes.

BERMAN: Do you hope it changes, Craig?

C. SICKNICK: Yes, I do. It would be nice to see justice served. Unfortunately, I have a feeling so many people are 100 percent biased one way or the other, and they're not going to listen.

KEILAR: Do you think what we learned yesterday might change that, though? Does that -- do you hold out any hope from what you learned yesterday?

C. SICKNICK: A few people may change their minds. I seriously doubt the diehards will. They don't seem to listen to reason. They still claim the hearings are a sham. They don't want to listen to people who were actually there, who are telling their stories now. You know, how do you change people's minds that are completely made

up? Unless -- unless something happened to their own family, that doesn't seem like they're capable of changing their minds.

KEILAR: Do you think, Craig, prosecutors might have their minds changed and say, Maybe there's more here, and we need to move ahead?

C. SICKNICK: That would be nice to see. I have my doubts that it will, however. I would not want to be the attorney general right now, making a decision that is going to definitely cause serious controversy and, unfortunately, probably more violence.

KEILAR: Ken and Craig, we appreciate you being with us. Thank you so much.

K. SICKNICK: Thank you.

C. SICKNICK: Yes, thank you for having us on.

KEILAR: Trump world is reacting to this testimony from ex-White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson, and we have some new CNN reporting on this next.

BERMAN: And some Republican lawmakers privately stunned by these new revelations. What will it do to the loyalty to Donald Trump and his prospects for 2024?

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