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January 6th Panel Subpoenas Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone; Attorneys Say, Ex-Trump White House Aide Stands By All Her Testimony; Soon, Biden to Hold NATO News Conference Amid Crises at Home, Abroad. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 30, 2022 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER BONJEAN, ATTORNEY FOR R. KELLY: So, it didn't come as a great, big surprise. We were prepared for it and we are now prepared to fight this appeal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ad the defense had gotten unsealed just days before the sentencing that R. Kelly had been sexually abused himself starting when he was six years old by family members, nonfamily members, there was even alleged one family member took pictures of him in compromising positions.

The judge said that this could be a reason for why this happened. She took into consideration but it was not a reason to have an excuse. Brianna, John?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: No excuse for everything we learned in that trial. Jean Casarez, thank you.

And New Day continues right now.

Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar alongside John Berman on this New Day.

Former Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone subpoenaed after new testimony revealed he repeatedly raised legal concerns about January 6th.

And President Biden is set to hold a news conference at the NATO summit in Madrid. We will be there live.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The Supreme Court issuing its final opinions of the term today and Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson prepares to be sworn in.

Also, we're learning new details about the horrific discovery of migrants inside that truck in Texas.

KEILAR: Good morning to viewers here in the U.S. and around the world, it is Thursday, June 30th. I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman this morning. And the White House lawyer who, by all accounts, did everything in his power to keep President Trump in check has been subpoenaed by the January 6th committee. The panel clearly believes that Pat Cipollone is a central figure in their investigation. Witnesses say he pushed back on the fake electors scheme and Cassidy Hutchinson told the committee it was Cipollone who warned that if Trump went to the Capitol, quote, we're going to be charged with every crime imaginable.

Cipollone did meet with the panel informally back in April but has been reluctant to do more. Now, a source is telling our Dana Bash he might agree to at least a limited transcribed interview.

BERMAN: And first on CNN, a defiant Cassidy Hutchinson standing by her testimony despite denials by the Secret Service. The former top aide to Chief of Staff Mark Meadows told the panel that Trump was so unhinged, so determined to join his armed supporters at the Capitol that he tried to grab the wheel of his limo and lunged at an agent's throat.

Moments ago, we did hear from the January 6 committee co-chair, Liz Cheney, who did an interview with ABC's Jonathan Karl. This is her first interview since that dramatic hearing.

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REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I think that what Cassidy Hutchinson did was an unbelievable example of bravery and of courage and patriotism in the face of real pressure.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: As you know, there is an active campaign under way to destroy her credibility. Do you have any doubt at all in anything that she said to you?

CHENEY: I am absolutely confident in her credibility, I'm confident in her testimony. The committee is not going to stand by and watch her character be assassinated by anonymous sources and by men who are claiming executive privilege.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right. Let's bring in CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former State and Federal Prosecutor Elie Honig, Chief National Affairs Analyst Kasie Hunt and CNN Political Commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin. She was a Trump White House Communications Director, she worked with Meadows and is friends with Cassidy Hutchinson.

All right, first, Elie, to you. What would you be asking? If you are on the committee and you are interviewing Pat Cipollone, what would you be asking him?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: First question, that is statement that you made to Cassidy Hutchinson about every crime on the books, did you say that to Mark Meadows? Did you say that to Donald Trump? Because if he did and we don't know but it stands to reason that he did as White House counsel, that goes right to their intent. That means they were told by the most authoritative lawyer in the White House what we are doing right now is illegal in all of these ways. And if they proceeded, as it appears at the did, that is remarkably damning as to intent.

BERMAN: Elie, our reporting, Dana's reporting is that he might agree to a limited transcribed interview, in other words, he's going to carve out some areas where he may not answer because of some privilege. What would that be? Where would the carved out area be?

HONIG: So, that would be up to the negotiation. But it sounds to me like they are working on a deal where he will testify about the conversations perhaps he had with some people but not Donald Trump. They've done this before. When Marc Short testified, reportedly, they let him avoid talking about his conversations with Donald Trump.

Now, I think the natural reaction to that is, but that's the most important thing, what did you say to Donald Trump. The problem for the committee is they have no leverage. As a practical, matter they are at Pat Cipollone's mercy.

[07:05:01]

Because if Cipollone says, no, I'm out, not talking to you, the committee does not have the time left to go into the courts. We saw how long that took with Don McGahn. They have six months left at most. They just don't have the time. So, maybe they're thinking of something is better than nothing.

KEILAR: Because the dynamics with Pat Cipollone are so different than they are with Cassidy Hutchinson. And you can see where if he's going to be wanting to claim privilege, he's going to do it on, did you tell Donald Trump that.

KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right. No, exactly. I mean, that's really kind of the only standing that he has. But I do think that it's interesting that they finally actually sent the subpoena. The reporting that we got was basically he's not going to do it without a subpoena, right? We've seen that from a number of people who were close to the former president. In some ways, it gives them political cover with the president. I'm not sure that that's what's going on in Cipollone's case but I do think it's important.

And the other thing here is, don't forget like the public outside pressure here. To your point, that piece of this is very important because of the limited amount of time that they have. So, Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony put incredible pressure on Pat Cipollone. I think that's why you're seeing this movement.

BERMAN: And you heard Liz Cheney basically referring to it right there, Cassidy Hutchinson did this, all this men, and she did say men, are hiding behind various forms of privilege.

Alyssa, you are friends with Cassidy Hutchinson. Let me just ask right now, you've talked to her, how is she doing?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: She's doing remarkably well, I think better than I would have been doing in her shoes. I think she's struck by the magnitude of the moment but she went into it clear-eyed, knowing obviously her life would change overnight but that this was incredibly important testimony she had to bring to the committee.

So, I mean, Cassidy actually came to me and said, there's more I want to share with the committee a couple months ago. I put her in touch with Congresswoman Cheney. She got a new lawyer and that's how this testimony came about.

And one thing I want to say just real quick on Pat Cipollone. I think he's a gold mine even if he can't talk about what he advised the president on, even just confirming that he told the White House chief of staff you will have committed every crime under the books. So, there is a lot that could come out of that written testimony.

BERMAN: Can I just follow up on one thing? She came to you and said she had more even after she had spoken to them once?

GRIFFIN: Yes. So, what people need to understand is Trump world was assigning lawyers to a lot of these staffers who themselves don't have --

HUNT: They're assigning lawyers?

GRIFFIN: Well, I should say covering the cost of lawyers for people who don't have big legal defense funds to themselves.

HUNT: They were paying Cassidy Hutchinson's lawyer?

GRIFFIN: It's my understanding. You would have to confirm that, but she had someone, Stephon Positano (ph), who had been in the White House Counsel's Office, is still aligned with Trump world. She did her interview, she complied with the committee but she shared with me there is more I want to share that was not asked in those settings, how do we do this?

And in that process, she got a new attorney of her own. Congresswoman Cheney had a sense of what questions needed to be asked that weren't previously. So, that's how this shocking testimony that people didn't realize before kind of came about and it didn't come up in her earlier interview, some of these facts.

HUNT: So, this sheds a lot of interesting new light on a lot of things but especially the -- some of those -- we know at least one of those text messages that Liz Cheney showed on the screen at the end of the hearing that suggested there was pressure from Trump world actually went to Cassidy Hutchinson. So, I mean, in the event that --

KEILAR: That was a big question we had, is that what she's basically saying here?

HUNT: Yes. And if the reality is now that she previously had a Trump bought and paid for lawyer, she switches lawyers, suddenly is getting text messages that suggest that, I mean, there's a lot there.

HONIG: This is ringing a lot of bells from my time as a prosecutor. It's very common -- I used to do mafia cases, okay?

KEILAR: You are perfect for this.

HONIG: Sadly, yes. The boss, the family, provides, pays for the attorneys for everyone on the indictment or as many people as they can.

BERMAN: Can I just enter very quickly here? By the way, there are two sides of this. Also, there are very junior people who can't often afford their lawyers too, so you have various committees and political committees that will provide counsel not necessarily something that's nefarious, I digress. Continue.

HONIG: It's not necessarily illegal, and, yes, sometimes people say, thank you, I need a lawyer. But the practical effect of that ass witnesses, like Alyssa was apparently saying with Cassidy Hutchinson, feel like, well, there are certain things I can't really say in front of this lawyer. And I'll tell you, the number one flag for us as prosecutors, this person may be ready to flip, they change out lawyers and go get a lawyer on their own.

GRIFFIN: And one thing I would say on a more practical note, I think -- and I don't want to speak for Cassidy -- there was an element of not even fully understanding the significance of some of the things that she saw. And as the committee has gone about its work, she's like, wait, this connects to this. This connects to this. And I wouldn't be shocked if more witnesses end up coming forward after her testimony because they realize they can kind of fill in more gaps as they've heard this all laid out.

KEILAR: In the deposition, you answer what you're asked.

GRIFFIN: Exactly.

KEILAR: So, she wasn't asked some of the questions that she was asked in this hearing. Is that part of it?

GRIFFIN: That's my understanding, yes.

KEILAR: Okay. Sorry, go on.

BERMAN: While we're going down this road --

KEILAR: Yes, let's do it.

BERMAN: -- because this has taken a little bit (INAUDIBLE). Okay.

So, was she aware, did she anticipate the pushback that would take place here and particularly with what she testified she heard from Tony Ornato?

[07:10:09]

GRIFFIN: I think so. I, again, don't want to speak for her but that was the one piece of her testimony that was based on hearsay. I was told this, not that she witnessed it. And I think that has been blown out of proportion because his intent to go to the Capitol alone when he knew there were armed people going there to try to stop the election is significant enough.

I think the fact that the committee allowed her to use it means that it can mean a number of things. I think, for one, it puts the pressure on Tony Ornato to actually testify. I'm not of the mind that he's going to, but he's someone I know to have been dishonest in the past. I think she's kind of wearing the brunt of that right now but I think she's going to be vindicated in the long run.

KEILAR: Okay. Under oath, not under oath, these are two different things. Like you said, you know Tony Ornato, you've tweeted about him. Do you think that he would lie to undermine her testimony?

GRIFFIN: I think he would lie not under oath. He's not going to perjure himself. I think he's going to come up with a lot of reasons to not testify or comply with the subpoena if he's given -- has that opportunity.

HUNT: Yes. I mean, we should really underscore the sort of bizarre circumstances under which Tony Ornato was operating in the White House at this time, right? It is extremely rare that a Secret Service agent -- and he was sort of detailed to the White House, he wasn't officially really with the service at the time. I mean, it's a very complicated arrangement. That is -- I don't want to say unprecedented because I don't have the knowledge to quite say that, but let's just say I've covered at least four administrations now, I've never seen anything like that before.

There are also -- you know, there's reporting that he is very much involved with -- you have to remember Trump always took his personal security very seriously. He was trailed for many years by this guy named Keith Schiller who I remember -- I knew Keith because he was around from the very beginning when Trump came down that escalator, he was the one who was there, he was always by Trump's side, and the sense is that Ornato filled those shoes once Schiller left. That puts him in this like close physical proximity to Trump and there are a lot of questions about what his future is like. Is he going to run security for the Trump Organization? So, I mean, the motives and the pressures on him are pretty extraordinary.

HONIG: Can I just add to that? With this whole dispute, look, I found Cassidy Hutchinson to be a very credible witness for a lot of reasons, but it is fair game to try to pick it apart. That's what happens when you take the stand and Congress or in a trial, but I am not buying the Tony Ornato story. And let me tell you why. He has a habit of this. Cassidy Hutchinson said, Tony Ornato told me these damaging things, Ornato denied it. Alyssa Farah has said that the same thing happened to her. She told the story that Ornato had told her, Ornato, said, no, she's lying. Keith Kellogg, same thing.

So, there're two scenarios here. Either Hutchinson and Alyssa Farah and Keith Kellogg are lunatics who made up out of whole cloth this thing that Ornato told them for no reason, with no incentive -- I know you're right here, I don't think you're a lunatic -- I'm not going to go with option A. Or option B, Ornato has this habit of talking out of school, saying things that are embarrassing, and when they come out, just saying I never said that, I'm going option B.

KEILAR: Fascinating conversation, you guys. Thank you so much for that.

And ahead, we're just moments away from President Biden addressing international and domestic issues at the NATO summit in Madrid. We have a live report next.

BERMAN: Four people now charged after officials discover dozens of migrants dead in a truck in Texas. The sheriff's plea to President Biden.

KEILAR: And the search for a shooter is on in New York City after a 20-year-old woman shot and killed while pushing her infant baby in a stroller.

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[07:15:00]

BERMAN: All right. New overnight, a significant development in Ukraine, the Ukrainian military says it has driven Russian forces from Snake Island, that's right here. The Russians have occupied that island from the very beginning of the war. Ukrainian officials calling it a remarkable operation to force Russian troops to evacuate on speed boats. Here are some images that we've seen from this operation.

You will recall, this is the place where early on, like in the opening days of the Russian invasion, Ukrainian soldiers refused to surrender. This is one of the commemorative stamps they have made telling the Russians go eff yourself.

Russia, for its part, claims its forces left the island, quote, as a gesture of good will.

KEILAR: The Ukraine war will surely come up during President Biden's news conference, which is scheduled for just about 45 minutes from now, as the president wraps up what has been a successful and highly consequential NATO summit meeting. Some disagreements, though.

Let's go live now to CNN's Kaitlan Collins who is in Madrid with the latest. Kaitlan?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna. It is the final day of this NATO leaders summit here in Madrid and, of course, there are a lot of questions for President Biden when he comes out any moment from now to take those questions. But so much of it has centered on just how much you've seen NATO really transformed into a much more muscular NATO ever since last year, of course, and the last four months since this Russian invasion of Ukraine is still under way, still going on.

And so there are big questions for the president about the momentum here when it comes to support for Ukraine, because you've heard these officials say that they will support Ukraine for as long as it takes. But, obviously, that comes at a cost when it comes to sending weapons, weapons that President Zelenskyy and Ukraine says he wants to see arriving faster because he says his forces need them, as he's hoping to bring this war to an end by the end of the year.

One other thing, of course, is the expansion of NATO. That has been one of the biggest tangible achievements coming out of this summit now that they have formally invited Finland and Sweden to join, obviously something that President Putin of Russia did not want to see happen and something that has happened very quickly. But you've also seen President Zelenskyy respond in kind to that yesterday when he was virtually addressing these leaders basically asking why Finland and Sweden and not Ukraine, because so far we have not seen any kind of a clear pathway for Ukraine to join NATO.

[07:20:09]

So, those will be big questions in addition to the grain shortage, the food shortage that you've seen happening that's been sending prices higher around the globe, whether or not these leaders could actually come to an agreement on trying to solve the blockade that is basically been put into effect for several months now by Russia, as they are blocking it from getting out of Ukraine.

So, those will be really big questions that are facing Biden as he does take questions before departing to go back to the White House in Washington.

KEILAR: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much, busy day there in Madrid.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, CNN's Senior Political Commentator and former Senior Adviser to President Obama David Axelrod, and CNN Anchor and Correspondent Audie Cornish.

David, obviously, the president -- this is a president who doesn't give a lot of news conferences and is giving his first one in a while. What image does he want to present to the world and also here in the United States?

DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think two words, strength and command. That is what he needs to do, John. As you know, this is -- every presidential press conference is important, when you don't have them very often, they're more important. But this is particularly important because here we are in June before a midterm election, the president's approval rating has slid into the 30s, which is disastrous for the party if it is sustained.

And so he needs to show command and strength in this have press conference because that's what people say in polling and focus groups, that they feel he is lacking. There's so much swirling around not just events in Europe, the biggest land war in Europe since World War II, but also obviously here at home inflation, abortion, the January 6th hearings and all of those consequences.

So, it's going to be a real test for him and I'm sure that they knew that when they circled it on the calendar that this end of conference press conference was going to be particularly important for this president at this time.

BERMAN: Audie, first of all, let me say this is the first time I have had a chance to talk to you either on air or in-person, a longtime fan. It is great to have this chance to talk to you.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Nice to meet you.

BERMAN: So, if you are one of the reporters, what are some of the questions that need answers at this point from the president?

CORNISH: Well, reporters obviously are proxies for the public, and so far, President Biden has given a lot of speeches, he's even started doing op-eds, those are all one-way conversations. This is an opportunity to have a two-way conversation.

To David's point earlier, the context here is also important. This is essentially a U-turn of sorts in terms of U.S. foreign policy. The approach to NATO for the last couple of years, particularly under Trump, America First, those images you might remember of the former president with his arms crossed and kind of, you know, countries standing around him became like a symbol of that pullback from the kind of institutional approach that Biden is prone to. And I think that the president probably feels unsure of footing in this environment where there have been great gains, albeit gains knitted together by Russia's aggression.

And so this is going to be a moment where he can really lean into foreign policy in ways he probably feels strong, but, of course, all of those pressures from back home that David has just mentioned are certainly going to come to the forefront.

BERMAN: Audie, he's clearly comfortable talking about issues surrounding Ukraine but it is a complicated issue, right, if he's asked, for instance, how do you see this ending or what's the endgame here for Ukraine, he hasn't really weighed in on what he thinks or how he thinks Ukraine should be willing to negotiate.

CORNISH: Probably because it's not up to him, right? In so many ways, it's up to Russia. And it's up to Zelenskyy and Ukraine. I mean, obviously this is a country that has stood strong independently for all of these months in a way that many people did not expect.

And I'm sure, and David can talk about this more, there's been a lot of conversation about how exactly does NATO support Ukraine in particular, but you can't sort of divorce that from the context of the fact that all of these countries are now saying, wait a second, NATO is significant, NATO is important, NATO has a good reason for being. It was only a few years ago when people were writing op-eds sort of doing the wither NATO.

So, this has really turned things around. That does not mean that President Biden won't have to answer questions about abortion and how his administration could be more aggressive, and I know obviously a lot of progressive activists are talking about that, or even about the Supreme Court. We're going to have the seating of Ketanji Brown Jackson. And so I think those things are definitely -- he can't get away from those things even in this moment.

[07:25:00]

BERMAN: You know, David, Audie brought up abortion and a lot has happened since the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade, a lot of new pressure from Democrats and progressives for the president to do something. And you know that today he will be faced with those questions. Why aren't you doing X? Can't you do Y or Z?

AXELROD: Right.

BERMAN: How do you think he handles that?

AXELROD: Well, first of all, John, this is the problem that he has right now. He's got a fistful of problems that don't have easy solutions and people are looking to him because we invest in the present in this sense of huge authority beyond what is realistic, they're looking at him to say what will you do now? What can you do now? And too often he's left with inadequate answers just because there aren't any easy answers.

Yes, there are people who want him to realign the Supreme Court. There are people who want him to somehow wave a magic wand and have the Senate do away with the filibuster and pass laws to rectify this. And there are other more prescriptive ideas, all of which have complexities.

So, I'm sure that he's coming in with answers in his pocket that at least suggest forward movement, but unlikely that any of them are going to satisfy the critics.

BERMAN: Yes, what he answers and how he answers --

CORNISH: Yes. But can I jump in here for a second?

BERMAN: Sure. Go for it.

CORNISH: I was just going to say David's comment about the magic wand, remember that candidates run saying I can fix X, right? I mean, they are the ones who tell the public, I'm going to fix things, I'm going to change things when I get into office. And I think one of the things that progressive activists I'm seeing are talking about in particular is that if Democrats want to do something they can but they have built up a sort of long list of consequences that they fear so much that there is inaction, but that that inaction itself, it's not immuneable (ph), it's not permanent.

And I think this is a shaky moment for someone like Biden who is such a Democrat at heart in the way we think about it, a party person, and he very much, I think, believes a lot of these, we can't do X, we can't do Y. And that is the challenge of this moment is having the base saying, well, wait a second, we want to challenge every assumption we have about those consequences.

AXELROD: Yes. No, Audie, there is no doubt that that is the environment, particularly among progressive Democrats, but people across the country who are concerned about this particular issue and other issues. But the reality is you can't -- through shear will, whether you are an institutionalist or not, you can't turn 48 votes into 50, and a lot of what is required requires 50 votes. And that is the reality of governing in a 50/50 Senate and a 50/50 country that Biden is facing.

BERMAN: David Axelrod, Audie Cornish, great to have you both on this morning. Thank you.

AXELROD: Thank you.

BERMAN: And we will have special live coverage of the president's news conference at NATO. That begins shortly, so stay with us.

Four people charged in what the Department of Justice is calling the worst human smuggling incident in the United States. The sheriff will join us live next.

KEILAR: And a woman shot and killed at any point blank range in New York City while she was pushing her very young baby in a stroller. We have details ahead.

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