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Cipollone Testifies before Committee; Highland Park Suspect's Father Speaks Out; Former Japan Prime Minister Assassinated. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired July 08, 2022 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: About Donald Trump's conduct and it would be hard for the Justice Department to just look away from that and not consider it at all. We'll see if more comes out after Cipollone.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, they're certainly learning a lot from the hearings, as we understand it.

MURRAY: Absolutely.

KEILAR: Sara Murray, thank you so much for that.

All right, let's talk more about this now. Let's bring in CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson, and criminal defense attorney Stacey Richman with us.

OK, so, as Sara pointed out, we're expecting that they're going to learn something, but what's the most important thing, Joey, that you think they can learn that executive privilege isn't going to get in the way of?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: State of the mind of the president, right? In the event that you're talking about a situation where you're overflowing an election and you're trying to incite riot, et cetera, you want to know what the state of mind of Donald Trump was. I think that's the critical issue. Not only as to him, but I think you could get to that state of mind, Brianna and John, as to his interaction, not only with Trump, but as to his interaction with other officials who were sounding the alarms.

We know that he was very concerned, that is Mr. Cipollone, with respect to what this was all about preceding the event itself. We know he was concerned the event, of course, of which I speak, is the insurrection. We know he was not only concerned preceding it, he was concerned during it and after it. And so I think you want to drill down to the extent that, right, what did your boss know? There are all these privilege issues that, you know, could or could not come up, but I think they could be defeated. I'll address that later.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, but, Stacey, if the goal -- Joey Jackson's goal is to get to the president's state of mind, Pat Cipollone, we know, would like to wall off his conversations with the former president of the United States. So, how will you get to the state of a mind of somebody you can't ask directly about?

STACEY RICHMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there's going to be a lot of questions about who was present, who was there, whether or not the executive privilege or the attorney/client privilege in parallel was vitiated. So, they are going to be searching for what was happening, what was going on, what context things were happening. And, yes, he's going to try to stand back.

Look, to have this job is a great honor for anybody, and he's probably in this situation watching things melt down. And he will be honest, he's there under subpoena, because if he tells a lie, that's a violation of 18 USC 1001. So, he has an obligation of honesty and he doesn't want to trip that up. And, yes, you are correct, he will be doing everything to state privilege, privilege, privilege. And there will be challenges to that to try and draw that out.

Then you have the question of the crime frauds exception. Was anything done that was a breach of the law that was in anticipation or forward- happening that he would have to -- that the privilege would not cover, or was everything in past tense. So that's going to be a whole other layer and issue here.

KEILAR: What could he say about Mark Meadows that wouldn't get tripped up in some objection because of hearsay or dismissed, discounted because of hearsay?

JACKSON: Yes, so I don't know at this point, Brianna, that we're concerned about hearsay. In a court of law, I think we're more concerned about that. At this point, the committee wants to know everything, right? We'll worry about those hearsay issues.

I think there's a lot to be said about Mark Meadows and his involvement, his interaction, his knowledge, his really enabling of the president, his advice given to the president. But I also think, in litigating these issues, and they won't be litigated, you know, when you talk about privilege, which is very important, because when you have conversations with the president, your client, you want to ensure that those conversations are candid. So, we put a privilege to attach to them to make sure no one else gets to them.

But the issue in my mind is whether or not a privilege even applies. If you're talking about a president, Stacey alluded to it, we're talking about potential criminality. So, to what extent does the crime fraud exception prevent any privilege application. In addition, we're not talking about representation of the president in his official capacity. These were acts that were related to him as a candidate, they were related to him as a person who wanted to remain president. That's not -- there's nothing official about that and there are other reasons. But I think Mark Meadows -- and not only him, there are other people, right, around this whole thing who have knowledge.

Last point. We also know that there were other lawyers who testified before that committee, such as the attorney general. Remember him? Bill Barr. Such as the acting attorney general, right, Jeffrey Rosen. Such as a number of others who were lawyers and they testified as to their communications with the president. Why should he not do so as well?

KEILAR: All right, you guys, we have much more to talk with you about, if you can just stick around for us.

The father of the Highland Park gunman is defending the decision that he made to help his son get legal clearance to buy guns.

BERMAN: And the shocking, breaking news out of Japan this morning. The former prime minister, Shinzo Abe, assassinated. CNN's special live coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:41]

BERMAN: New developments in the July 4th parade shooting in Illinois that claimed seven lives and injured dozens more. We're hearing from the father of the suspected gunman who helped his son legally obtain the firearms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT CRIMO JR., SHOOTER'S FATHER: I filled out the consent form to allow my son to go through the process. They do background checks, whatever that entails.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. CNN's Camila Bernal joins us now live from Highland Park in Illinois with the latest.

Good morning.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

Look, I think motive continues to be the biggest question here, why did he do this? But as we wait for clarity on that, there are a lot of questions as to the role that his father played in all of this because we do know that Robert Crimo Jr. sponsored his son's gun license. And as you mentioned, he told "The New York Post" that he essentially approved this gun license because he thought his son was going to use the guns at the gun range.

And here's what he told "The New York Post" about the guns. He says, he bought everything on his own and they're registered to him. They make me like I groomed him to do all of this. I've been here my whole life and I'm going to stay here, hold my head up high because I didn't do anything wrong.

Now, Crimo also told "The New York Post" that he was furious about what his son had done and that he believes he deserves a long sentence, referring to this as the consequences of his actions.

[06:40:05] He also pointed to mental illness, but then told "The Post" that he did not see a lot of it. But we do know that according to authorities police were called to the shooter's home almost two dozen times in the years leading up to the shooting. And really the bottom line is that his background checks was fine and he bought all of these guns legally.

So, again, there's just a lot of questions as to what could happen in terms of his father and, obviously, everyone here in this community just wanting to know why this happened as they try to heal and move forward.

John.

BERMAN: All right, important questions.

Camila Bernal, thank you very much.

Back with us, Joey Jackson and Stacey Richman.

Stacey, the issue of what kind of liability the father could have, civil and criminal, for vouching for his son in the purchase of the firearms, the state's attorney, essentially the district attorney, of Lake County told CNN yesterday there's not a per se violation of law. If you vouch for someone on an FOID card, that's the card you need to buy a weapon, and they end up doing something terrible like this. So, not a per se violation of the law.

RICHMAN: Well, there's different aspects of the law. So, you have the criminal law and you have the civil law and then everybody thinks about, what do we owe a situation morally. That's an aside.

In the criminal law, unless there is a codified statute stating if you sign up for this application you are responsible for another, well, there really isn't a criminal charge for the father. I mean he is not controlling the mind of the other because that's one of the main aspects of criminal prosecutions, mens rea.

Now, there are certainly aspects where you have criminal negligence where you can have a prosecution where it doesn't require that level of knowledge, so perhaps there's a criminal negligence statute they can find that fits him, OK. But as the prosecutor is stating now, intentional -- intentional acts against the father, we don't see it there, which is different from the other set of parents in the other shooting because they were well aware that the kid had a gun, they had facilitated the gun.

What I had provided to CNN, and I think you have a copy of it, is that he had taken responsibility for whatever his minor applicant did with the use of the firearms and that ammunition. And that document is what he filled out in order for his son to go through this application process. So, will he have civil liability? Absolutely. He signed on the dotted line for that.

KEILAR: Because, criminal or not, dad's saying, they do background checks. Well, you know what would have popped up in a background check if dad and other family members --

RICHMAN: Were honest.

KEILAR: Had chosen to be, you know, not just honest, but also had chosen to make an issue of what the - what Crimo had done, would have been that encounter with police where he threatened to kill his entire family.

JACKSON: No question. So, Stacey's the consummate criminal defense attorney. We've known each other a long time. And, as a result of that, you know, she has the defense's position here, and I think articulate that as to whether the father can be charged.

Let me put my prosecution hat on for one second.

Look, the reality is, is that you don't only prosecute people for intentional actions, you would prosecute them because they are reckless. And if you're the father and if police have come to the home dozens of times, as was reported, in the event the police took 16 knives, a dagger, a sword, in the event police were there because you were attempting suicide and you were endangering other people, I call that reckless behavior. And you know what, there's a statute that addresses it. It's called involuntary manslaughter.

Quickly thing. By way of analogy, we see in the Crumbley's case in Michigan, the charges that they are being faced with, why, because of their knowledge as to what their son was about and their failure, right -- he shot and killed four, injured seven others in the school -- their failure to do anything about it.

KEILAR: But they also purchased the weapon. It wasn't his, it was theirs, and they left it unsecured. So, it's different.

JACKSON: So there are -- there are always distinctions, absolutely. But the bottom line is, if you have knowledge of this and you have knowledge of your son's mental acuity or lack thereof in addition to his lack of stability and trying to harm himself and family and you're going to endorse an application and then sit back and say, I had nothing to do with it, I think prosecutors, because of the public pressure, and because of the fact that it's the right thing to do to be creative and to move forward and to deter other people from doing this, I think you could see charge of the father. That's my position.

BERMAN: We will see.

Joey, Stacey, thank you both very much.

BERMAN: We are going to speak to the uncle of the gunman ahead on NEW DAY.

So, shock across the globe this morning after the assassination of Japan's former prime minister, Shinzo Abe. New details on this just, again, shocking shooting and the race to save his life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:48:53]

KEILAR: We're tracking some major breaking news out of Japan. The assassination of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. He was shot twice while delivering a campaign speech.

(VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Abe was rushed from the scene in an ambulance and then he was transferred by medical helicopter to a hospital. Doctors say a bullet that killed him, the bullet that killed him, was deep enough to reach his heart.

Let's bring in CNN's senior international correspondent Will Ripley. We also have CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson.

Will, I don't think we can overstate how significant this is, what a shock this is to people in Japan, and also to people around the world familiar with Shinzo Abe.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a shock on so many levels. It's a shock in that Japan's gun violence is almost non-existent. The fact that there was a homemade weapon that was kind of taped together really speaks volumes of how you walk through the streets of Tokyo or any other Japanese city and you feel safe, and politicians feel safe.

[06:50:02]

To get so up and close and personal with crowds. I mean, there are social media videos posted showing Shinzo Abe, just hours before he was killed, or the day before, you know, shaking hands, doing the, you know, the heart sign with people, you know, as he was out on the campaign trail.

Even after he resigned as prime minister, he was still working very hard, not only giving stump speeches like the one this morning when this happened, but also just speaking out on behalf of issues that are important to him and important to Japan. One of them being the issue of Taiwan and defending Taiwan, the self-governing democracy.

And so Shinzo Abe, he was extremely influential. He was very much well-liked. The fact that he could have - you know, develop a friendship with Donald Trump and take him out for hamburgers in Tokyo and play golf and one of the first world leaders, by the way, to kind of figure out how to manage our former president and the United States, but yet also be able to, you know, try to mend, you know, frosty relations with China, you know, to work around the region, to give Japan a greater role. He is a big voice, a hard worker who will certainly be missed by many levels. And his death, as you said, just shocking.

BERMAN: Nic Robertson, he was a towering figure inside Japan. And for most of the last decade, a global leader in terms of economic power and also global stability. And to see someone like that assassinated in 2022, it really is shocking. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And it really

speaks to the range in number of tributes and the speed with which they've come in and the heartfelt nature of those tributes from Taiwan, from Singapore. You know, look at Australia. We've had two former prime ministers, Malcolm Turnbull, Scott Morrison, and the current prime minister there, Anthony Albanese, all, you know, offering their condolences and talking about their sadness about this.

But, I think, look, Abe was very big on the world stage. He had decided to sort of expand, not only Japan's defense posture, its defense forces, and that didn't go down so well inside Japan. But he was a man, as we've heard from Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who was a man of vision. And I use that particularly carefully and particularly precisely here because him -- Shinzo Abe taking Japan on the world stage, just think about it, when he was prime minister 2012- 2020, in the first two years he visited almost 50 different countries. So, he gave Japan a bigger global role and a stronger defense force.

The vision part is because that's exactly what partners like the United States began to need as relationships with China worsened. And this divided sort of global situation between the United States/China on one side, Japan was very firmly a good ally and becoming an increasingly strong ally here in Europe, hence the strength of statements that we've heard from Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general of NATO, saying that he was a true Democrat. What does that really mean in practical terms?

Well, it meant at this latest NATO meeting, where Japan is not a member, it had a seat at the table. It was invited to Madrid. The prime minister invited to Madrid to join other NATO leaders because of Japan's strong role, you know, and value as part of an alliance where NATO, the United States, European partners sought China for the first time as a threat to value and security and stability.

So, in this way, Abe did prepare Japan for an outsized and bigger international role than it had had for many, many decades. And it came at a time when the world needed it. So, I think this is why we're seeing such an outpouring of support. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, you know, talking about him this morning, saying he was a champion of multilateralism. He really was a big leader that walked with a large footprint on the world stage.

KEILAR: Yes, and that's why this is a shock on so many levels.

Nic, Will, thank you to both of you.

International reaction, as we heard there, just pouring into this assassination of Shinzo Abe, the former Japanese prime minister. Malcolm Turnbull, the former Australian prime minister, is going to join us next.

BERMAN: Also this morning, the person who could be the most important witness to appear before the January 6th committee. What do they expect to hear from former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [06:58:49]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Friday, July 8th. I'm John Berman, with Brianna Keilar. And we do have major breaking news this morning.

Japan's longest-serving prime minister, a towering figure on the global stage, has been assassinated. Former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe shot to death during a campaign speech today.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Abe suffered bullet wounds to the chest and neck. He was rushed from the scene in an ambulance, but one of the bullets reached his heart. Doctors could not stop the bleeding.

KEILAR: Moments after the shots were fired, Abe's security detail, as you see here, tackled the suspect to the ground. He's being described as a local resident in his 40s. And the gun that he appears to have used here looks like it was handmade. A motive at this point unknown.

But Abe, yes, a towering figure in Japanese and international politics. He had close working relationships with both President Obama and President Trump, which was a sign of his considerable political skills and range.

[07:00:05]

His death is being felt around the world.

So, let's begin now with CNN's Blake Essig.