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Bannon Says He's Willing to Testify Before Committee; Top Dems Rule Out 2024 Amid Fear a Challenge Hurts Biden; Gas Prices Fall for 26th Straight Day. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired July 11, 2022 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to viewers here in the U.S. and around the world. It's Monday, July 11th. I'm Brianna Keilar alongside John Berman this morning.

[05:59:51]

And prosecutors are saying their January 6th plot included explosives and a death list, and now an Oath Keepers insider will testify publicly in a consequential week for the January 6th Committee. A former spokesman for the far-right militia group is set to testify about the group's inner workings tomorrow and the role that it played in the effort to overturn the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON VAN TATENHOVE, FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR OATH KEEPERS: Just to give a historical precedence to this group and how they have kind of radicalized. I was the propagandist for the Oath Keepers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Committee members believe they can connect the dots between Donald Trump's inner circle and the Oath Keepers. The Justice Department detailing new evidence of militia trainings, of explosives and also a death list ahead of the insurrection, which highlights the threat and extensive planning by these groups as they prepared to bring violence to the nation's Capitol.

BERMAN: And an abrupt about face. Steve Bannon, Trump's former chief strategist, suddenly saying he is willing to testify before the January 6th Committee.

This after the former president sent a letter waiving executive privilege. Of course, the committee and many legal experts believe no privilege existed in this case anyway.

And consider the timing: Bannon is set to face trial next week on criminal contempt charges after defying the congressional subpoena to appear before the panel. His attorney is now requesting that trial be delayed.

KEILAR: So let's bring in Whitney Wild. She is live in Washington with the very latest on this -- Whitney. WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is

expected to be a pretty robust hearing, a lot of things to tic through, John and Brianna.

But one of the major things this hearing is going to focus on is how this violent mob came together and the role of extremist groups in that deadly insurrection.

One of the big focuses will be attempting to connect the Trump allies to these militia groups such as the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys. And more specifically, this hearing could examine connections between Roger Stone and Michael Flynn and extremist groups.

A source tells CNN the committee plans to feature Jason van Tatenhove. He's, again, a former spokesman, as you just heard, he says he's a propagandist for the Oath Keepers, or at least was. He maintains that he was never an actual member of the group but instead was just an employee.

Congressman Jamie Raskin told CBS on Sunday that Tuesday's hearing will reveal the fundamental importance of a meeting that took place in the White House on December 18, after which Trump sent out a tweet, asking his supporters to come to D.C. on January 6th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): People are going to hear the story of that tweet and then the explosive effect it had in Trump world, and specifically, among the domestic violent extremist groups, the most dangerous political extremists in the country at that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: Members of the committee have also said it's very possible that the public will hear from former White House counsel Pat Cipollone, who testified for nearly eight hours on Friday.

Brianna and John, this all comes as the Justice Department releases new evidence in a case against the Oath Keepers. Prosecutors say through their investigation into that group, investigators found two illegal short-barrel firearms, grenades and also discovered bomb- making recipes.

KEILAR: Whitney, thank you so much. Pretty amazing details that we're learning there.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, CNN senior national correspondent, Sara Sidner; legal and political analyst Terry Austin; and Chris Whipple, author of the book, "The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden's White House."

Sara, I want to start with you, because you've done extensive reporting on both the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. This spokesperson, Jason van Tatenhove, worked for the Oath Keepers as this employee, like, years ago.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BERMAN: It's -- I'm curious what you think he might provide, because what is important here, according to Whitney and according to Jamie Raskin and others, is this connective tissue between the White House and the Oath Keepers. So what do you get from him?

SIDNER: Look, I think what you get from him is how much the leader of the Oath Keepers has an influence on the others. I think you're going to start seeing -- maybe we will hear from him. Does he send out directives? Are they responded to? Are people going to say, yes, we're going to do this?

Because the government has Stewart Rhodes as one of the nine defendants who are facing the toughest charges you can face, right, in this case.

And so Stewart Rhodes has said all these things both before and after online. You can find him talking about going after the government, even talking about the fact that he believed Joe Biden was not the president and that the president must do something, and we must do something as a group.

But there's also all these messages on Signal being sent from him and others to each other, talking about things like pre-combat inspections, very militaristic language about what they were going to do on January 6th.

And then you have -- you just heard from Whitney Wild -- one of the co-conspirators bringing things like weapons, things like explosives to a hotel in preparation for this.

So he might show some connective tissue between all of these people and the power that, perhaps, the leadership has over some of the members.

[06:05:04]

KEILAR: Bennie Thompson, the chairman of the committee, set the bar on what they're trying to achieve here at the very beginning of this series of hearings. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Are there going to be witnesses that describe actual conversations between these extremist groups and anyone in Trump's orbit?

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Yes.

TAPPER: There will be?

THOMPSON: Yes. Obviously, you'll have to go through the hearings, but we have a number of witnesses who have come forward that people have not talked to before that will document a lot of what was going on in the Trump orbit while all of this was occurring.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Terry, how important is it that there is a strong link, that there is very strong coordination?

TERRY AUSTIN, LEGAL AND POLITICAL ANALYST: It's a big important issue, because that is how the DOJ is going to be able to bring charges.

What the select committee is doing now is gathering information. They themselves can't bring charges, but the DOJ can. And if we can establish a link between Trump, his aides and all of the Oath Keepers and the other organizations who had these extremist acts, then we can probably bring charges against Trump and his aides. So they have to make those links.

It will be forensic evidence. It will be testimony. It will be videotapes. And all of that is going to help the DOJ bring charges. They can bring seditious conspiracy charges. They can bring fraud charges. So there are a number of things they can do, particularly obstruction of a process, because they tried to stop that electoral slate.

So there's a lot they can do, and putting those links together is going to help the DOJ actually bring those charges.

BERMAN: Chris, what do you think the committee needs to do tomorrow, and how often will we hear the name Roger Stone?

CHRIS WHIPPLE, AUTHOR, "THE FIGHT OF HIS LIFE": Well, I don't know about Roger Stone, but just think about Trump saying on national television about the Proud Boys, "Stand back and stand by." I mean, it all fits, doesn't it?

And, you know, so I agree that this is potentially devastating, tomorrow's testimony, because if you can connect Trump to a premeditated plan to launch a violent mob on the Capitol, then, you know, game, set and match.

But in another sense, I think that what happens tomorrow almost doesn't matter when you consider what we already know.

What we know is that Donald Trump and Mark Meadows and others were told in no uncertain terms that they lost the election. They went ahead and tried to subvert the election anyway.

They launched a mob to attack the Capitol. They knew the mob was heavily armed, and they didn't care how many people died.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I think -- I do know something about previous presidential scandals, and compared to this, you know, Richard Nixon and H.R. Haldeman, their crimes look like parking violations.

KEILAR: Like parking violations. That's saying something.

I want to talk about Steve Bannon, because we learned now that he's willing to testify. We should be very clear, because he says he's testifying, because Donald Trump has told him that he's waiving privilege, executive privilege that, to be clear, actually never pertained to him.

BERMAN: I'm waiving the right to dunk a basketball. I can't dunk a basketball. It's the same thing. That's like the legal analysis.

KEILAR: It's sort of like if there was no basketball at all.

BERMAN: Right.

KEILAR: And, yes --

WHIPPLE: It's fascinating, and it's also preposterous, as you say. I mean, Trump had absolutely no authority to waive executive privilege, Bannon didn't -- wasn't working at the White House. Executive privilege has to yield when there's evidence of criminality.

And you also have to wonder if -- what in the world can Steve Bannon say --

KEILAR: Well, so what is he doing?

WHIPPLE: -- to exonerate Donald Trump?

KEILAR: What do you see him doing here?

WHIPPLE: It's desperation. It's total desperation on the part of Trump. He's watching himself get killed at every -- at every hearing on national television and wants to throw something against the wall.

And so this is the -- the equivalent of rolling a hand grenade into that hearing room. But I think it blows up on Trump and Bannon. I mean, and for sure, we know that Bannon is not going to be put on live television. They're going to depose him first.

So it's really -- you know, when I heard it, I thought of the old McEnroe phrase, You cannot be serious. Why are they sending Steve Bannon in? Anybody's guess.

BERMAN: Sara, does this do anything for his legal case? I mean, he faces this trial on criminal contempt in a week. Does this mean this goes away?

SIDNER: It could possibly mean they might have some sort of compromise. It's two separate issues.

The contempt charges, there are two of them, two counts. Those are still going to stand. He faces $100 up to, you know, days in prison up to a year, frankly. And whether or not he testifies is not going to affect that.

But he could reach some sort of agreement with the DOJ that if he testifies, then he will have these charges dropped against him. But they have serious evidence against him for these charges, because he totally ignored the subpoena back in September.

[06:10:07]

And so whether or not he agrees to come before the committee now really doesn't matter because he did defy that subpoena, and they have those charges against him. But it can't hurt if he testifies.

KEILAR: Let's remind people what Steve Bannon said on his program on January 5th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. It's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen, OK, it's going to be quite extraordinarily different. And all I can say is strap in. The war room posse, you have made this happen and tomorrow it's game day. So strap in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I mean, Terry, he's going to be asked about that. How do you see that going down?

AUSTIN: Absolutely. And he wants to testify in public but he better testify behind closed doors, because the answer to that question is really going to implicate him; and he may just very well take the Fifth.

He knew something was going to happen. What was he talking about? And that's exactly what the committee wants to know. He knew that people were probably bringing weapons. He knew that people were going to go to the Capitol. There was going to be an insurrection, and he's going to have to come up with an answer. And that answer is definitely going to implicate him.

So I think we're going to see him talk about some issues that don't implicate him, but for other issues, I do think if he does testify, he's going to have to take the Fifth.

BERMAN: So let's go back to what we're going to see tomorrow and this testimony surrounding the Oath Keepers and this idea of the connection. You've done reporting on the Oath Keepers. What were they doing in Washington around those days? Who were they with? We know they were near, around, Roger Stone. What does this all lead to?

SIDNER: Yes, I mean, it is, again -- they're looking for connective tissue. They're looking for direct connection between groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys.

And there is some video evidence that we have all seen of members, especially one member who is charged in this case of seditious conspiracy, who is standing right there with Roger Stone, Robert Minuta. And all of these people who have been charged, by the way, have pleaded not guilty.

But there are three members of the Oath Keepers who have pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy, the strongest charge that has been brought by the federal government. And so it's interesting, because I'm sure they're getting some information, potentially, from those people who pled.

But it's the connective tissue and whether or not they can prove that there was direct connection between people like Roger Stone to the White House, to the Oath Keepers, to the Proud Boys, telling them what to do or where to go; or that they knew of their plans and did nothing or were encouraging their plans.

It's very interesting that Bannon, by the way, just going back to him, that, you know, it's about a week until there's supposed to be a jury selected for his case. That seems a little suspicious if you look at it on its face.

And Stewart Rhodes, the leader of the Oath Keepers, has also said that he would testify, but he wants to make sure he does it publicly. And some of this, I think a lot of people are suspicious as to whether they are going to go out there and really try and make Donald Trump look good by defying -- you know, maybe they say one thing in the deposition, and then they go out in front of the public and say this whole other thing. And so that's a fear, as well, for a lot of people.

BERMAN: All right. Sara, Terry, Chris, thank you all so much for being with us this morning.

Brand-new CNN reporting this morning. Are concerns within the White House about the possibility of a challenger, a Democratic primary challenger to President Biden in 2024.

And down, down, down. Gas prices dropping for the 26th day in a row.

KEILAR: Plus, as Vladimir Putin's war forces the starvation of millions, Ukraine says it's amassing an army of a million fighters to recapture the South. CNN is there live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:05]

KEILAR: As doubts emerge about President Biden's chances in the 2024 election, potential Democratic challengers are insisting they will not run and warning others to follow suit in not doing so.

New CNN reporting shows prominent Democrats are closing ranks, fearing division could winken [SIC] -- weaken the party's chances against Donald Trump.

Joining us now is CNN's senior reporter Edward-Isaac Dovere, who's done some extensive reporting on this.

You've talked to a lot of Democrats about 2024, Isaac. What are they telling you?

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Look, there is a sense here that, yes, things are obviously not great for the president's standing at the moment; but among Democrats, especially those who get talked about a lot as potential challengers -- people like California Governor Gavin Newsom, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker -- saying to me, no, they will not run, and no one should run. That Democrats need to unite and stop fighting with each other, because otherwise, they are essentially back biting their way into a return of Trump and Trumpism.

BERMAN: As always, Isaac, it's a really interesting article and piece that you just published. The theme, though, is that there doesn't seem, as of now, to be a challenger, a primary challenger to Joe Biden. However, the White House is still nervous about it, right?

DOVERE: Well, look, they are watching what's going on. I've had conversations with people in the White House saying, Look, we're looking at what's happening. It could happen. We think that there could be someone there maybe.

But what they, I would say, didn't know as much as I do now through this reporting, is that these people were ruling it out. The White House has been looking at people like Gavin Newsom and saying what are they up to, as Newsom has stepped forward a little bit more into the national scene, but Newsom telling me, as I said, no, he will not run. Absolutely not.

KEILAR: A lot can change, though, right? A lot can change. But if Democrats lose the house in November, does that change anything? Does that change the dynamics in this decision about Biden's odds heading into 2024?

[06:20:08]

DOVERE: Look, I think that the safest thing to be is a political reporter now in this period of -- that we're going through is someone who doesn't make predictions at all about what's going to happen.

We don't know what November is going to ultimately look like. Obviously, a lot of things seem to have taken shape at this point, but what that looks like, how that affects Joe Biden's decision, we don't know.

And there's a member of Congress that I talked to, a Democrat, who said to me, Look, no one is better at holding off and making a decision about running for president than Joe Biden. No one is more famous for it, and he is the president.

BERMAN: You know, people have such short memories. People forget that Barack Obama, there were questions about whether or not he would face a primary challenge when he ran for reelection in 2012. This is something that happens.

But Isaac, again, based on your reporting, it sounds like what you're saying is, if you had a chance to talk to the White House, because your reporting just came out minutes ago, they actually might be relieved by what you're reporting this morning.

DOVERE: Yes, I think that that is the case here. To hear these people say so strongly that they won't run and that they don't think anyone should run and that it is time -- we've seen a lot of questions being raised by other Democrats over the last couple of weeks about where Joe Biden is, about Joe Biden's age, about his response to a lot of things going on, the abortion decision, many other things.

But these people saying it is time to stop. We've got to unify. There is -- there are bigger things going on here about where the country is headed, about what's going on with our democracy; and that especially these questions about maybe pushing Joe Biden off the scene are not things that are helpful to the party.

KEILAR: So then what do you make of -- you mentioned Gavin Newsom. He engages Ron DeSantis, who's seen as a potential Republican candidate. How do you explain, then, as he's taking this role as kind of aggressor in a pretty unusual way for just a California governor who isn't considering a presidential run?

DOVERE: There is no question with Newsom and with J.B. Pritzker, the Illinois governor, that there is a lot of push to have a more active, a more responsive and aggressive approach from President Biden and from other leading Democrats. That's what Newsom and others are pushing for here, that they want the party to be taking on Republicans much more forcefully.

Of course, in the way that things go politically, when someone -- a politician starts making noise about what his or her party should do and what it should be on the national stage, and Gavin Newsom advertising in Florida, as he did last week, that raises some real questions about what's going on.

But I'll tell you, when I spoke to Gavin Newsom, I said to him, People in the White House have said to me, what is Gavin Newsom up to? What are you up tor, Governor?

And he said, I'm glad you asked it that way. Please tell them I'm not running.

KEILAR: All right. Well, I'm so curious what the response is going to be to your reporting, Isaac.

Isaac Dovere, thanks for sharing it with us this morning.

BERMAN: Can I ask, do they need you to tell? I mean, why does Gavin Newsom need you? You're great. I mean, no one loves you more than I do.

KEILAR: He has a phone.

BERMAN: But why -- but why would they need you to tell the White House that?

DOVERE: You know, John, I'm not going to argue with any politician who wants to call me up and tell me what they're up to.

But I think what you see here is that the White House did try to ask Newsom what was going on, what was he up to there in a roundabout way. But there is this question of, if Joe Biden himself called up Gavin Newsom and said what are you up to, maybe that would lead to some other questions in itself.

BERMAN: Fascinating. Just fascinating.

KEILAR: Isaac, thank you.

DOVERE: Thank you.

KEILAR: Drivers getting some relief, a little relief, maybe not enough. Surely not enough at the pump as gas prices sink from last month's record highs. We'll talk about that next.

BERMAN: And what might look like a pool party, it's actually a political uprising by people desperate for food.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:28:16]

BERMAN: All right. Drivers are seeing relief at the pump. According to AAA, the national average for a regular gallon of gas is 30 cents cheaper than it was a month ago.

Here now CNN business correspondent Rahel Solomon. What, 26 straight days dropping?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, compare that $4.68 to about $5 a gallon last month, and you can start to understand the relief that consumers are feeling at the pump.

So there is a bit of good news in this report, and there is a little not-so-good news.

So the good news, of course, is that prices are lower and that they could continue to go even lower. The bad news is the reason why.

So part of it is demand destruction, this idea that prices perhaps got too high that people started to really pull back. We did get a bit more supply, and we'll likely get more, so that's some good news.

But also recession fears really hitting the commodity crude really hard. So if we take a look at WTI, the U.S. benchmark for crude this year, you can see it's been a wild ride. So about 75 bucks there at the start of the year. It hit about 125 in March, and now we're closer to 103.

And the reason why crude matters so much for prices at the pump is because crude is about 60 percent of what we pay at the pump. So when crude moves one way or the other, it really impacts what we see at the pump.

Now, in terms of recession fears, a lot of commodities have gotten hit hard with these -- these concerns about a recession. Copper for one.

So crude -- this is an interesting thing. Crude prices are already sort of still elevated. There's not a ton of support for this idea that they're going to plummet, because even in times of a recession, U.S. oil consumption hasn't declined by more than 10 percent.

If you look at the last five recessions, U.S. oil consumption declined less than 10 percent. So the concern is that prices still remain elevated.

That said, one analyst telling me that his prediction is about $4.50 a gallon in the next couple of weeks, and that's certainly some relief for people at the pump who are feeling really stretched.

BERMAN: A little bit lower than it is even now.

SOLOMON: Exactly.

BERMAN: All right. We'll watch it carefully.

[06:30:00]