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Committee to Show Alleged Links Between Trump, Extremists; Liz Cheney's Role on January 6th Committee Taking Political Toll; NASA Unveils Deepest Image of Universe Ever Taken; Poll: 64% of Democrats Want Someone Other Than Biden in 2024. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired July 12, 2022 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Tuesday, July 12. I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar.

[06:00:00]

And we have new reporting about what we will hear this afternoon in the next public January 6th Committee hearing; and also revealing new information about what they are digging into behind the scenes.

A specific meeting inside the White House is looming large. A meeting the committee says has been described to them as insane. A meeting that preceded, by hours, former President Trump's tweet calling on supporters to be at a protest in Washington on January 6th and that it would be wild.

Committee member Jamie Raskin, who will lead today's hearing, says when Trump wrote this, he became the first president in American history to call for a protest against the peaceful transfer of power.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: The committee says the hearing today will focus on how extremist groups were inspired by that tweet. How they mobilized in response, coming to Washington that day. And also, what connections exist between Trump's circle and these extremist groups.

Witnesses include rioter Stephen Ayres, convicted for his role in the insurrection, who talked about civil war. And a former spokesperson for the Oath Keepers will also testify.

We're also learning this morning that the committee will reveal new information about efforts by members of Congress to pressure former Vice President Mike Pence to block the counting of electoral votes.

BERMAN: All right. Let's bring in former senior investigator for the January 6th House Select Committee John Wood and CNN senior Washington correspondent Pamela Brown.

Pamela, let's start with the reporting here. Let's talk about the witnesses at today's hearing. You have new information?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. We're learning that Stephen Ayres is going to be talking. He was accused and then pleaded guilty to illegally entering the Capitol building on January 6. He was one of the ones that posted Trump's tweet, saying that everyone should come to the Capitol building; it's going to be wild, and he said that there will be a civil war. So he's going to be a key witness today.

Also testifying, you have Jason van Tatenhove. He was the former spokesperson and self-proclaimed propagandist for the Oath Keepers group. And we know that the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys, these are two groups that are going to be under scrutiny today, as the committee tries to lay out the connections between these groups and people connected to Trump world, including people like Roger Stone, who had long -- long-time ties to the Proud Boys group. There was reporting about the security he had on January 6, involving the Proud Boys.

Also under scrutiny today, former national security adviser Michael Flynn. He was in that crazy December 18 meeting where there was talk about martial law and seizing voting machines. And so he's going to also be looked at today.

We should note, though, Roger Stone and Michael Flynn have not been charged in this.

BERMAN: Right. Pam, we'll pause for one second. John Wood, we want to bring you in for analysis. First, on the witnesses today, this convicted rioter, what is important for the committee to get from him, to tie him to what?

JOHN WOOD, FORMER SENIOR INVESTIGATOR FOR JANUARY 6TH SELECT COMMITTEE: Well, I think they'll want to hear about what role Donald Trump and his rhetoric played in inspiring the attack on the Capitol. I know there's been a lot of attention to, you know, the question of whether there was any direct coordination between Donald Trump or anybody on his team and then to these domestic violent extremist groups or others who were involved in the riot.

I'm not sure we'll see quite that. But I do think we'll probably hear some powerful testimony that Donald Trump's words and actions inspired the attack on the Capitol.

KEILAR: And Pamela, I know also you have some reporting on Pat Cipollone's deposition, where that meeting at the White House that you talked about, that insane meeting, factored so large?

BROWN: Yes. And this is something that we know the committee is going to be focusing on today in this hearing. And we know that Pat Cipollone, according to sources I've been speaking with, when he testified last Friday for nearly eight hours, he talked about being in that meeting in the Oval Office with Michael Flynn, with Sidney Powell, with others, and just how contentious this meeting was.

One source told me his view of it was that it was absolutely insane. And so he walked the committee through that meeting, where people close to Trump, allies of Trump, were pushing him to use presidential powers to overturn the election.

And so it won't be surprising if they show a clip of that, of him speaking about that meeting today. And also other aspects that he testified to, as well. We know committee members have said that they will be showing clips of him.

KEILAR: John, how important is it that these dots are connected? The meeting on the 18th, the tweet on the 19th, directly to the violence that we saw on the 6th?

WOOD: I think it's extremely important. And when you mentioned the meeting on the 18th and the tweet on the 19th, it's important to keep in mind that the timing, the meeting in the 18th sort of late in the evening in the Oval Office and actually went back to the residence, seems to have lasted well into the night. And then the tweet on the 19th was actually very early in the morning on the 19th. So it may have been just a couple hours or less between that meeting and the tweet.

[06:05:05]

And so, I do think it's important to hear first-hand from these witnesses the extent to which Donald Trump inspired them to take action to attack the Capitol.

BERMAN: Connect the dots for us a little bit more, John, if you would. The meeting was hours before the tweet. What's the implication there?

WOOD: Well, that's what we want to find out. Now, whether there was something that was said at the meeting on the 18th regarding January 6th, I don't know. I'd be interested to hear that.

But even if not, was there something about that crazy meeting that went on for hours that inspired Donald Trump to then send that "will be wild" tweet referring to January 6th. It seems like it's hard to believe that it was just pure coincidence.

BERMAN: Why he thought it would be wild, what he heard about the possibility for what was being organized for January 6th, that type of thing?

WOOD: I think that would be very important to hear. I don't know whether that was discussed at that December 18th meeting. But that's one of the things we'll want to hear about. And Pat Cipollone may be in a position to shed some light on that.

I think we're going to hear a lot of Pat Cipollone, even though he's not going to be a live witness. I think we're going to hear a lot of excerpts from his videotaped deposition. That's something that the committee has done very effectively in the previous hearings.

KEILAR: And Pamela, the Overstock CEO will be speaking with the committee on Friday. Tell us about that.

BROWN: Yes, that's right. So he's the former CEO of Overstock. He's a Trump ally. He has been on the front lines, pushing the election lie, pushing conspiracies. He was in that meeting on December 18th in the Oval Office. And he's going to now be meeting with the committee behind closed

doors according to my colleague, Jamie Gangel. Our reporting is that there are no ground rules set right now, no topics discussed.

But it is really interesting, and he can shed light, potentially, depending how cooperative he is, on all those efforts, Trump pressure campaigns to overturn the election.

I mean, he has totally bought into the election lie. He even wrote a book about it called "The Deep Rig." So he is going to be a really interesting witness for the committee.

BERMAN: It gets to what exactly we're talking about right here. In essence, today's hearing will focus on that meeting and what happened after it, but Byrne, who will testify, I guess, later in the week behind closed doors in a deposition, he was there also, Pamela, right?

BROWN: Yes, he was there. He was right at the center of it. And he was one of the Trump allies in that meeting, along with Sidney Powell and Michael Flynn and others, who were pushing Trump to use presidential power to overturn the election: to seize voting machines; to appoint Sidney Powell as a special counsel to investigate voter fraud.

So he was right there in the center of it, of that meeting that is under so much scrutiny.

KEILAR: John, I think as we're watching these hearings, we're seeing more dots being connected than we thought would be. Of course, the most important dots might have been that Cassidy Hutchinson testimony.

But when you look at this all together, what does this reveal to you about the approach of the DOJ, what it has been, and what it should be?

WOOD: Yes. I think the Justice Department, if it has been really active in this investigation beyond the rioters themselves, it's doing so in a very covert way, because there's very little public indication of action.

I know there was a recent news article suggesting that there's more of a discussion of Donald Trump's role in light of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, which is a little bit surprising that they, you know, would wait until Cassidy Hutchinson testified to do that. Because while Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was certainly very compelling, very newsworthy, Judge David Carter, a federal district court judge in California, several months ago wrote an opinion in a case involving Dr. John Eastman in which Judge Carter said that it was more likely than not that Donald Trump and John Eastman violated at least two federal criminal statutes. So, you would think that would have gotten the Justice Department's attention back then.

BERMAN: Pamela, Roger Stone and Michael Flynn, they have -- we have heard -- we saw a little bit of testimony from Michael Flynn already on tape, pleading the Fifth. But how central do you expect them to be in today's hearing and the overall findings of this committee? BROWN: I think that they are going to be a huge part of today's

hearing.

Look, these are two people who were very close to Donald Trump. They were on the front lines, trying to push people to overturn the election, pushing these conspiracy theories. Michael Flynn, for one, pushing to have voting machines seized and to enforce martial law.

And they're the two people, central figures in the big lie and efforts to overturn the election. So, absolutely, they're going to be a big focus today. And also, Roger Stone's connections to Proud Boys and extremist connections. That will also be looked at today.

BROWN: Pamela, thank you so much for the reporting.

John, we really appreciate the perspective.

[06:10:06]

WOOD: Thanks.

BROWN: Thanks for being with us this morning.

BROWN: Thank you.

BERMAN: I'm going to move now, because we have more to discuss. Obviously, we were just talking about the legal and the investigatory implications of what will happen in today's hearing.

There's also the political implications of all of this, not just on the former president but also on the people involved, including the vice chair of the January 6th Committee, Liz Cheney, who faces a primary soon.

Joining me now is CNN senior data reporter, Harry Enten. What are her current prospects according to the polls, Harry?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I appreciate that you got in your morning exercise walking over here.

So I think this gives you a pretty good understanding of what has happened with Liz Cheney in Wyoming. We can look at her disapproval rating. That is the people who really don't like the job she's doing. Before voting to impeach Donald Trump, her disapproval rating was 26 percent. After voting to impeach Donald Trump, look at that. It went up 46 points to 72 percent. She is not a popular person in the state of Wyoming.

BERMAN: How does that compare to, say, an average member of Congress's approval rating?

ENTEN: Yes, this to me sort of is the giveaway. So the disapproval rating for House members in their home districts, the average is 31 percent. Cheney at 72 percent. Of all of the members of Congress, according to this mass CES data set, Liz Cheney has the worst disapproval rating of any member of the House of Representatives. BERMAN: So people looking at this race, the oddsmakers, obviously, are

leaning one way?

ENTEN: They are leaning one way. Harriet Hageman is -- look at this. The betting odds, 92 percent;, Liz Cheney's opponent. Liz Cheney, at this particular point, just an 8 percent chance of winning. And I've been watching this. This chance that Liz Cheney has has only gone down the closer that we get to her August primary.

BERMAN: So the betting markets don't like her chances, but donors like to support her. She is raising a lot of money.

ENTEN: She is, but there is a big schism in what's going on right here. So this is the fundraising contributions by location. Out of state, Liz Cheney is winning this, big league. Look at this. This is nearly a $6 million edge.

But, of course, ultimately, what matters is the voters in the state of Wyoming. And look at the in-state contributions. What do we see here? We see that Hageman actually has a pretty large advantage, at 643,000. This was through the last fundraising period. We'll get some new data coming out soon. To Liz Cheney's just 270,000.

So Liz Cheney is basically getting a lot of money from out of state. She's quite popular with folks nationally, but in the state of Wyoming where it actually matters for her electoral chances, she's actually trailing her challenger.

BERMAN: You know, one point I think we should make here is that you know who knows all of this? Liz Cheney. I mean, she's fully aware of the costs this would have on her politically.

Yet, she is still choosing to vice-chair this committee. She does think it is crucially important.

What do we know about how people perceive her role in that hearing?

ENTEN: Yes, so again, you know, I was talking about the schism that Liz Cheney has sort of been having. And so this is an interesting data point from Quinnipiac University. It's essentially do you approve or disapprove of Liz Cheney's job as vice chair of the January 6th Select Committee.

And what we see is that overall nationally, we got a pretty even split here. If anything, slightly more people approve than disapprove. But here is, I think, the key nugget. A lot of Democrats approve 75 percent to just 7 percent disapprove.

Among Republicans, look at that. The vast majority, 61 percent, just 17 percent approve of the job she's doing.

BERMAN: And again, Liz Cheney would argue she's doing this because she thinks it's right, not because she wants to do it to win in Wyoming.

One thing people that people do ask, Harry, is that, well, she's running for reelection in a primary. Could there be cross-over voters? Could some of these Democrats in Wyoming, some of the Democrats in Wyoming who like the job she's doing, could they maybe push her to victory in the primary?

ENTEN: You said the Democrats. There are about as many Democrats as you can possibly fit in this room. And while it's a large studio, it ain't that large.

The voter -- the voter registration in the state of Wyoming, 71 percent of the voters there are Republican. Even if you can get some Democrats to vote in that primary, just 15 percent of them are in fact Democrats in the state of Wyoming. I think on one block here on the upper west side, you could probably find as many Democrats are in the state of Wyoming. They just don't exist. They just don't exist.

BERMAN: Not enough Democrats to make a difference in the cross-over vote?

ENTEN: No, Liz Cheney, look, she's doing what she thinks is right. But ultimately, I think it will probably cost her her political career in Wyoming.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you --

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: -- so much for that.

So, alarming new polls for the White House, including one that shows 64 percent of Democrats want someone other than President Biden as their nominee in 2024.

Plus, the deepest view ever of the universe, ever captured. The stunning new image from NASA next.

[06:15:05]

KEILAR: And CNN obtains new footage of Donald Trump's efforts to overturn election results in Georgia, as the filmmaker joins us live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They should open it up, verify the signatures. When you do, you'll see that all of those people that signed didn't have the right to vote. There were forgeries and other things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: This morning, we're getting a look at the deepest and sharpest infrared image of the early universe ever captured.

President Biden releasing the stunning first image from NASA's Webb telescope. And it reveals the light from thousands of galaxies as ancient as 13 billion years old.

CNN's Rachel Crane is joining us now. I mean, it looks fake it's so cool looking.

RACHEL CRANE, CNN INNOVATION AND SPACE CORRESPONDENT: I know. I mean, space enthusiasts and scientists around the globe, they had their mind -- minds blown here looking at this image.

[06:20:03]

And what you can see here, there's thousands of galaxies in this image, the sharpest and deepest infrared image of our universe we have ever seen.

And, you know, just a hundred years ago, you guys, we thought we were the only galaxy. And now, we have an understanding that just in this tiny little sliver of the universe in this image, there's thousands of them.

So, you know, just to understand how powerful this $10 billion observatory is that we have in the sky. Bill Nelson, the NASA administrator, yesterday saying at the White House that this slice of the vast universe covers a patch of sky approximately the mass of earth covers a piece of sky approximately the grain of sand held at arm's length by someone on the ground.

So, this is just the beginning here, this image. And it's really hard to look at that, you guys, and think that we're alone in the universe. I mean, we're talking, you know, billions and billions -- hundreds of billions of galaxies out there.

So, this is just the beginning of the science that James Webb is going to be beaming back to Earth from a million miles away. NASA will be releasing other images later on in the afternoon. We know we're going to get a look at an exoplanet. That's a planet that orbits another star. We're going to be able to see inside of its atmosphere to get a sense what that atmosphere is comprised of.

Could it potentially harbor life? We don't think that this exoplanet can. But these are sort of the secrets that this telescope, this time machine, really, is going to start to reveal to us. It's going to answer or help us get closer to answering those big questions, are we alone? How did the universe begin? So again --

BERMAN: Such small questions. Tiny questions.

CRANE: Yes. They're certainly the ones that keep me up at night and I know space enthusiasts around the world. So this is a really, you know, historic day in space, these first images being released.

KEILAR: It is beautiful. Thank you, Rachel Crane, for making us feel small this morning.

BERMAN: Yes.

KEILAR: We do appreciate it, actually. Thanks so much.

So ahead, we're going to speak with former NASA astronaut Mike Massimino. Why he says more photos set to be released today are also going to blow our mind.

BERMAN: Blow our minds. Scientists are wigging out.

KEILAR: They are freaking out.

BERMAN: That's what's happening They are wigging out at this.

KEILAR: President Biden's poll numbers sinking to all-time lows. Nearly two-thirds of Democrats want a new nominee by 2024. But how does Biden fare against Donald Trump?

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, dear God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: How a group of tourists survived that enormous avalanche that swept right over them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:26:51]

BERMAN: President Biden is facing skepticism from inside his own party. According to a "New York Times" poll, 64 percent of Democratic voters say they would prefer that their party have a different candidate.

But despite low ratings here, in a hypothetical 2024 rematch with former President Donald Trump, Biden actually has a narrow lead, 44 percent to 41 percent.

So, let's talk about this with CNN political commentator Errol Louis. He is also a columnist at "New York magazine" and the host of the You Decide podcast.

Let's talk about, first, that 64 percent number. But we also should mention that when you look at younger voters, it goes to above 90 percent who don't want Biden, and that's a huge number. What is the takeaway for you, Errol?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the takeaway is that there are elements of the Democratic base -- young voters, black voters -- who are not interested in what they're seeing. They don't like what they're seeing.

There are all kinds of economic problems. The top concerns in that same poll are, you know, the economy and jobs and inflation, which is basically the same issue, right? It's the economy.

They -- they are holding the president accountable for that, as they should. And it's not looking good for him. I mean, the brighter spot, of course, is that when you match him up against almost anybody, or against nobody, you get very different outcomes. Against somebody, he's not doing so -- he's not doing so badly. The idea, then, being Joe Biden, in the eyes of many voters, is not the right candidate, except for all of the others.

BERMAN: We'll talk about the Trump factor in a second, because that's fascinating almost as a separate issue. But when you look at these numbers among the Democrats, too, and you ask them what's the reason for you not to approve, the No. 1 reason is age. Age and then job performance.

Frankly, it's not totally clear to me that you would necessarily separate the two. I think age might be a vessel for some people who aren't happy with his overall performance, but, still, to have age be so high.

LOUIS: Well, you know, this is uncharted territory. We've never had a president who was this old. And to the extent that people have evolving ideas, you know, we're only one generation into the time when you could even have an age discrimination suit.

You know, like if you were talking about any other job besides president, you could probably get yourself in some hot water by saying, oh, I just think the person is too old, you know, separate and apart from their actual performance.

So we don't know where voters are going to -- are going to eventually settle.

I strongly expect that the next 79-year-old candidate for president is going to probably do better than this one. But we're trying to sort of figure out, as a country, what we think about this. And of course, every single slip, whether it's physical or verbal, is going to be looked at and examined very harshly.

KEILAR: Elections are choices, right? So when you're looking at this hypothetical matchup, if you're Joe Biden, do you feel good about what you see?

LOUIS: Sure. I mean, he says it all the time: "Don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to the alternative." He knows how to win elections.

I mean, you had sort of similar kinds of skepticism about Joe Biden, taking away age, back when he was running in the primary in 2020. You know, I mean, he was in fourth or fifth place for I don't know how long until he sort of turned it all around in South Carolina.

So he's used to the idea -- he's been a politician his entire adult life. So he's used to the idea that I don't have to be beloved by everybody. I just have to beat the person that I'm running against.