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Biden Slightly Ahead of Trump in Matchup; Alex Holder is Interviewed about "Unprecedented"; Sudden Avalanche in Kyrgyzstan; Mark Leibovich is Interviewed about His New Book. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired July 12, 2022 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Used to the idea. He's been a politician his entire adult life. So he - he's used to the idea of that. I don't have to be beloved by everybody, I just have to beat the person that I'm running against.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, if you're a Republican looking at the poll we just had up there and seeing Biden beating Trump, what are you thinking this morning about Donald Trump.

LOUIS: Well -

BERMAN: In the midst, by the way, of the January 6th committee hearings?

LOUIS: Sure. If you're a Republican who's even remotely thinking about possibly challenging Trump for the nomination, that gives you a little bit of hope and an argument to make to some donors, but I don't think that's going to be nearly enough to dislodge him as the central figure who basically has the nomination for the asking and will control whatever happens, whatever the outcome is.

So, if you're Ron DeSantis, you look at this and you say, you know, I've got a case to make here because it does - it looks like even with all of this negative information about Joe Biden, Trump, in the polls, can't pull it off. Maybe I can.

BERMAN: He's the guy who lost to Joe Biden once. And, according to the polls, is still losing.

LOUIS: It's his strongest card right now, you know. I mean, and it - look, that's not a great place for Joe Biden to be, for the president to be in that situation where you're still within spitting distance, about three points behind, you know, or three points ahead of somebody like Donald Trump, who's been impeached twice and we've got all of this January 6th committee information.

But, at the same time, you know, you've got to get past him if you're a Republican. And you can make the case all you want that, hey, he might lose to Joe Biden for a second time. It remains, of course, to be seen whether Republican donors and Republican voters are going to buy that. BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Errol Louis, thank you so much.

LOUIS: Thank you.

KEILAR: So, a new documentary is revealing footage of former President Trump discussing efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Filmmaker Alex Holder joins us next.

BERMAN: Russian forces reporting huge explosions in southern Ukraine. The details of one of Ukraine's largest attacks on a Russian-occupied area.

KEILAR: And officials in Uvalde, Texas, voting unanimously to raise the minimum age to buy an assault rifle. The family of Robb Elementary School shooting victim Amerie Jo Garza will join NEW DAY ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:36:08]

KEILAR: CNN has obtained exclusive new footage from the documentary "Unprecedented." This clip from December 7, 2020, shows Donald Trump talking about trying to overturn the results in Georgia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: They should open it up, verify the signatures. When you do, you'll see that all of those people that signed didn't have the right to vote. They were forgeries and other things. And all we want is that. And that's simple. Or a special session. Let their legislature make the decision because they're already largely on our side because they see what happened in Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now is documentary filmmaker Alex Holder. He had behind-the-scenes about to the Trump White House and the Trump family for his film "Unprecedented" which is streams right now on Discovery Plus. Warner Brothers Discovery is the parent company of CNN.

It's such an important day to have you here because today the January 6th committee is actually going to be looking at how a rioter was inspired by Trump's language. And I know this is something of a lot of interest to you. His December 19th tweet telling supporters to come to D.C. on January 6th.

As you went through this whole process with your documentary, what did you find out about how Trump's language and the language of those close to him inspired people?

ALEX HOLDER, DIRECTOR, "UNPRECEDENTED" ON DISCOVERY PLUS: I was absolutely clear. And this language actually existed sort of before the election results came out. During the campaign, the rhetoric, the belligerence, this sort of almost cruel language that was being used by those supporting the president, mainly, at least in my interactions, the three eldest children. You know, things like, let's make liberals cry again. Or things like, we have to fight at all costs. And this sort of idea that this was a battle. And I think that that rhetoric definitely led to sort of this feeling that then translated past the election, obviously into the events that took place on January 6th, after the president had been falsely claiming that the election was stolen.

KEILAR: And, from your observations, was he aware the effect that his language would have on supporters?

HOLDER: I mean, I think at best it would be highly sort of -- I mean, there's an irresponsibility of that, right? I mean, I think it would be unlikely to say that he wasn't.

I mean, at the end -- the president of the United States, I think it's the first time ever, standing up outside, you know, The Ellipse at January 6th and he was cursing. That - I think that's the first time a president on purpose did that. I mean it was absolutely remarkable. So, it was all about that rhetoric and that sort of belligerence all the way through.

KEILAR: Turning back to an interesting moment from your documentary, I want to note how he described insurrectionists after the fact, after January 6th.

Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we talk for a minute about January 6th?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes.

Well, it was a sad day, but it was a day where there was great anger in our country. The people went to Washington primarily because they were angry with an election that they think was rigged.

A very small portion, as you know, went down to the Capitol. And then a very small portion of them went in.

But I will tell you, they were angry from the standpoint of what happened in the election, because they're smart and they see and they saw what happened. And I believe that that was a big part of what happened on January 6th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Did you ever get the impression that he understood January 6th, what happened was bad?

HOLDER: I mean, they're -- every time I watch that clip, I sort of -- it actually gives me sort of, like, you know, goose bumps because he's condoning the situation. I mean he's saying that the reason January 6th happened is because this group of people went into the Capitol because they were smart and believed the election was stolen.

[06:40:09] Well, the only person that told them the election was stolen was him. So, he is drawing a clear line between his lie and the events on January 6th. He's not making any claims of some of the conspiracies that have come out saying there were actually people on left, or that people were sort of pretending to be Trump supporters. He's actually admitting, categorically, that those people that went in supported his position that the election was stolen and was essentially trying to do something about it, i.e., potentially assassinate the vice president and intervene in this ceremonial process on January 6th.

So, if people are looking for a smoking gun, I mean that's him admitting it, categorically, in Mar-a-Lago, two months or so after the event took place.

KEILAR: Fair to say he has affection there for them, his --

HOLDER: Absolutely. He called them smart. That was extraordinary.

KEILAR: I also want to ask you about a moment that I know stood out to you about when Trump had Covid. What was it that struck you about what sort of he fixated on at the time?

HOLDER: This was actually really interesting in that, obviously, a lot of the sort of theories has been sort of spoken about in the context of January 6th. But the series looks at the entire sort of election campaign. Obviously, this extraordinary moment when Trump gets Covid. And during the election, the White House had come out and said that the president was OK and everything would be fine.

When I interviewed him after the fact, he actually talks about how scared he was when he had Covid. And he talks about how he was shocked when the doctors told him he had it and then says that he knew people, a few people, friends of his who had died from Covid. And what struck me was how he was the president of the United States of America that was in charge of sort of trying to deal with the Covid pandemic where tens of thousands of people had tragically died. That, to him, wasn't sort of important. What was important to him was the fact that he had a few friends that were - that he was connected to, that he was able to sort of understand and, therefore, that's what made him scared about getting Covid.

KEILAR: That that wasn't a concrete fact to him that all of those people had died?

HOLDER: Exactly. Or at least whether it was a fact, he probably didn't even understand it. To him it's all about the personal connection. And I think the series sort of goes into that. It's about, you know, what does it mean to be a Trump. And, again, we go into sort of what the brand and the interactions between the kids and his relationship with them as well.

At the end of the day, he doesn't really care about anything other than Trump, the brand.

KEILAR: Alex Holder, we really appreciate you being with us. Thank you. HOLDER: Thank you.

KEILAR: This three-part documentary series "Unprecedented" is streaming right now on Discovery Plus. And you can see it there.

Ten tourists buried by an avalanche. How the man shooting this video managed to somehow survive.

BERMAN: And growing calls for New York prosecutors to drop a murder charge against a bodega clerk who fatally stabbed a man in his store.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:47:03]

BERMAN: A jaw-dropping moment captured on video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, God. Oh, dear God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Oh, dear Hod is right. That video, just a huge avalanche racing down the mountain and sweeping over videographer Harry Shimmin (ph). Nine other tourists were hiking that mountain in Kyrgyzstan when they heard the ice cracking right before that wall of snow came crashing down at that incredible speed.

I want to bring in CNN chief climate correspondent Bill Weir.

Bill, you know, I'm sure you're looking at this thinking the same thing we are, oh, my God.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. It's miraculous that that Brit wasn't filming the last seconds of his life there. That the whole party actually got out unscathed. One woman cut her leg in the aftermath there as well.

But this is a really disturbing trend as we widen out and think about it on a global scale. The temperatures at near 12,000 feet in that part of the Himalayas, it's on the north China border, were about 70 degrees in the days before. Freakishly warm. And we believe, and scientists will possibly confirm it, that it was a glacier collapse as a result of that, which then touched off that avalanche there.

Miraculously, again, nobody hurt in this one. But just last week, in the Italian Dolomites, a similar thing happened after their epic heat wave. That one tragically killed 11 people who were on the mountain at the time.

And here in Iceland, where I'm filming a different story, they actually have an Icelandic term called (Speaking in Foreign Language), it's - I'm butchering the name, but it's a glacial outburst flood which happens when a volcano actually melts a glacier from below. Well, now science believes, we're the volcano. Humanity's, you know, climate change - human caused climate change is warming up these places and making these rivers of ice hugely unstable. You've got the immediate concern of communities downhill from those places, even causing glacier lakes to cause little mini tsunamis up in the mountains there. But then there's the long term effects, John, because those are the water towers, the Alps of Europe, the Himalayas of Asia, all the water comes from there. And those glaciers aren't re-freezing any time soon.

BERMAN: Yes, even more terrifying to think you could see more of this.

Reporter and Icelandic speaker Bill Weir, thank you very much.

WEIR: You bet.

BERMAN: The Biden administration working on a plan for a second booster for all adults, as new contagious - as a new contagious subvariant of coronavirus spreads in the United States.

KEILAR: Plus, hours from now, the January 6th committee's next public hearing will get underway, this time focusing on the role of extremist groups in the deadly insurrection. What to expect, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:54:04]

BERMAN: Without the complicity of the Republican Party, Donald Trump would be just a glorified geriatric Fox watching golfer. That is the assertion of reporter Mark Leibovich in his new book "Thank You for Your Servitude." He says, it is not another Trump book but rather it is about, quote, the busy parasitic suck-ups who made the Trump era work for them, who humored and indulged him all the way down to the last, exhausted strains of American democracy.

And Mark Leibovich joins us now.

How about those words. No, this is -- so this book isn't about Trump?

MARK LEIBOVICH, AUTHOR, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVITUDE": Well, of course. I mean you cannot write a book about politics over the last seven years without including Donald Trump and having a lot of Donald Trump in the middle of it.

But this is about - I mean - and, believe me, a lot of books have been and will be written about Donald Trump and what we're going to learn and so forth. But this is a book about those who allowed him to happen. It's about the Republican Party essentially. It's about Mitch McConnell, and Kevin McCarthy, and Lindsey Graham, and Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio, and all the way down to, you know, people who are - know fully well what he's about.

[06:55:11]

Some of them were very vocal about it in 2016. And yet, because they needed to make these decision, whether for the betterment of their careers or some weakness internally, they just sort of went all in with Donald Trump. And they're sort of still riding this horse, whether they like it or not.

KEILAR: You wrote a piece for "The Atlantic," which is adapted from your book. But it also includes some new references, and I wanted to read one that really stuck out to me. You said the courage and character of Ukraine stands in perverse contrast to America's cowering Republican Party whose resistance might as well have been led by the Uvalde Police.

And Republicans, though, and you talk about this so much in the book, they don't see themselves like that at all. You talk about how they discussed being in on the joke.

LEIBOVICH: They do. I think on some level they do see. I think they know exactly what's going on. They don't let themselves think about it, but that -- I think one of the reasons Liz Cheney has gotten the backlash she has from so many of her colleagues, you know, many of them former friends who sort of ignore here in the hallways now is, they look at her and they see someone that they can't beat. They know she's right. They respected the heck out of her until about two years ago. They still do. But they know that she has a level of courage and wherewithal to actually do something about it. It's something they all know intuitively still exists, very much exists as a clear and present, you know, threat to the country.

KEILAR: That it makes them feel bad about themselves?

LEIBOVICH: I think it does. I mean, look, I don't want to venture too much into psychology here, but, look, Liz Cheney, I think, is a - I mean they say, oh, well, she's just, you know, playing to the liberal base now. I mean, yes, Liz Cheney is probably the most admired politician in certain parts of the country. I mean she got a standing ovation at the Reagan Library at a speech a few weeks ago. She got a profile in courage award at the Kennedy Library in Boston, I mean a standing ovation there. You know, of course, you know, do these people get re-elected in Wyoming? Usually not, but who knows.

BERMAN: But you write that behind the scenes - and, again, and so much of this is what people say publicly versus behind the scenes. That's a running theme here.

LEIBOVICH: Yes.

BERMAN: That there are Republicans in Congress who were saying thank you to her?

LEIBOVICH: Well, yes, quietly. Make sure, you know, off the record, thank you. I really admire what you're doing. Are you doing OK? They'll look her very earnestly in the eye. She doesn't tend to appreciate this.

But, yes, no, there's a ton of this. And that is the joke that we're talking about here. I mean, look, in public life, especially in politics, there's always going to be a gap between what people say publicly, what people say privately, different audiences and so forth. I think anyone can recognize that. But, in all of my years covering politics, and in doing this book and

talking to Republicans who are living through this, I've never seen that big a gap between the public, the private, the conscience, what they're able to live with themselves on because it creates a real dissidence.

KEILAR: You talked to former House Speaker Paul Ryan, who described to you not being a crier but sobbed uncontrollably as he watched what happened in January -- on January 6th where he'd spent so much of his - I mean his entire adult life, right?

LEIBOVICH: Yes.

KEILAR: But also you note he was not inclined to grapple with his potential complicity in this situation?

LEIBOVICH: Yes. I mean, look, people are complicated. I don't - you know, I don't say, OK, this was the worst, this is the second worst, this person sort of got out at the right time so, you know, give them a - I mean Paul Ryan, when I talked to periodically through the years, you know, when he was - when he was Mitt Romney's running mate, when he was leaving the speaker's office in 2018, and then, a few months ago, just sort of debriefing in the events of the last few (INAUDIBLE). And he - you know, he, I think, very genuinely just was watching TV, burst into tears, just couldn't believe what he was seeing.

He saw his old security detail sort of going mano a mano with these rioters. And I said - and he was saying that I just - was just -- I don't know what to do, but I just was overcome. I mean I'm not John Boehner. I'm not a crier.

And then finally I just said, look, I mean, were any of these sort of tears of complicity? And, yes, he still - he sits on the board of Fox News, which is an entity that is, you know, probably has more to do with Donald Trump's continued rehabilitation as anything. And, you know, he didn't want to go there, but, look, it's complicated. I don't want to sort of cast judgment on anyone - well, maybe I do a little bit.

BERMAN: But it's - you know, and you take each case differently, which I also respect in here. We only have about 45 seconds left. But, you know, you addressed one of the giant questions of the last six years, which is, what happened to Lindsey Graham. And your answer, I think, is unique compared to some of the others I've seen. In some ways you say this is really just about Lindsey Graham.

LEIBOVICH: Sure. I mean that's - that's sort of a universal apply all thing in politics. But, you know, Lindsey Graham has always been about being in the mix, being relevant, to use his word. And, you know, whether it was next to John McCain, or John McCain's, you know, arch enemy, Donald Trump, it makes him relevant. It puts him in the frame. It gets him on TV. It keeps him well fed. It keeps him sort of at the dice table, as he would say.

BERMAN: Mark Leibovich, whenever I see you, I always think, I just want to make sure that he has enough time and people leave him alone so he can do his writing because his writing is so damn good.

[07:00:04]

LEIBOVICH: You know, from your mouth, John. No, I appreciate you having me on.

BERMAN: Thank you so much and congratulations on the new book.