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New Day

Committee Says, Trump Incited Attack After Unhinged White House Meeting; Rioter Blames Trump for Sparking Capitol Attack in Testimony; Surveillance Video Shows Police Retreating After First Shots. Aired 7- 7:30a ET

Aired July 13, 2022 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: You must spend $10,000 to get the $20,000 to have any chance of winning. And sure enough, this guy in second place actually gets this answer right. I couldn't believe it. I had no idea what the heck he was talking about. He gets the answer right but only by $3,000, thereby guaranteeing pretty much that he loses, it was like going for a two-pointer with two seconds left in a basketball game, no time left in a clock, when you needed a three- pointer to win, one of the worst bets I have ever seen.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: What do you think happened?

ENTEN: One of two things, nerves, maybe he just got nervous and didn't know how to do the math, or maybe he was trying to guarantee second place. But if you're on Jeopardy!, you go for the win.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, no, there's no second place.

ENTEN: But you get $2,000 if you get second place versus $1,000. But that makes no sense. I just think he screwed up the math.

KEILAR: Are you mad at him or are you mad with him?

ENTEN: I'm mad with him.

KEILAR: How are you feeling?

ENTEN: I'm mad with him. Look, there's a lot of pressure that goes on when you're on that show. I'm not mad at him. But it's just sad because when you had the chance, he had the chance to be a Jeopardy! champion, which is something you can say for your lifetime and he screwed it up.

BERMAN: Took a two-pointer when he was down by three at the end of the game. That's exactly right. That didn't happen here. Let's just make that clear.

Harry Enten, thank you very much.

KEILAR: Look at that guy.

BERMAN: New Day continues right now.

KEILAR: He didn't bet $3,000.

ENTEN: What a cute guy.

BERMAN: All right. Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Wednesday, July 13th. I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar.

And we have revealing new text messages, suggestions of possible witness tampering by Donald Trump, and a profanity-laced, unhinged meeting designed by some to try to keep Trump in power, the January 6th committee laying out how the former president planned for a march on the Capitol and wanted it to appear spontaneous. The hearing also highlighted Trump's hold over the rioters. Two witnesses, including a rioter in the Capitol attack, described how groups were radicalized by social media and Trump himself. And the convicted rioter at this hearing apologized to a group of Capitol police officers who were injured that day. Not everyone accepted that apology.

KEILAR: There was a text exchange involving Trump's former campaign manager that caught many people off-guard. Brad Parscale writing that Trump's rhetoric killed someone. He blamed his former boss for the deadly violence.

And for the first time, we saw clips of testimony from former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. He described a chaotic Oval Office meeting complete with cursing, screaming and bizarre strategies for overturning the election.

The panel's vice chair, Liz Cheney, closing the session with a significant new piece of information saying that Trump tried to contact a witness who has not yet appeared before the committee. That information has been referred to the Justice Department.

BERMAN: Jessica Schneider in Washington with what this hearing laid out and what it means going forward. Jessica?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. John, this is just the latest testimony tracing how Trump inspired these right-wing extremists, and it's really echoing what we've heard from a number of accused Capitol rioters in court, that they were following Trump's explicit direction when they stormed the Capitol.

The committee here is continuing to piece together how determined the former president was to not only overturn the election but also stir up violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice over): The January 6th House select committee revealing details about an unscheduled meeting in the Oval Office just weeks before the insurrection.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): What ensued was a heated and profane clash between this group and President Trump's White House advisers, who traded personal insults, accusations of disloyalty to the president and even challenges to physically fight.

SCHNEIDER: The meeting lasted well into the night and some of its attendees were repeating unproven election fraud claims and pitching then-President Donald Trump different ideas to overturn the election.

PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I saw General Flynn, I saw Sidney Powell sitting there. I don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice.

SIDNEY POWELL, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYER: Cipollone and Herschmann and whoever the other guy was, showed nothing but contempt and disdain of the president.

CIPOLLONE: We're asking one simple question as a general matter, where is the evidence? So --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What response did you get when you asked this panel, where is the evidence?

CIPOLLONE: A variety of responses, based on my current recollection, including, we can't believe you would say something -- things like this, like, what do you mean, where's the evidence? You should know.

DEREK LYONS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE STAFF SECRETARY: And then there was a discussion, well, we don't have it now but we'll have it or whatever.

ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: Flynn kept screaming at me that I was a quitter and he kept on standing up and turning around and screaming at me. And then at a certain point, I had it with him.

[07:05:00]

So, I yelled back, either come over or sit your f'ing ass back down.

SCHNEIDER: Days before the meeting, a draft executive order called for the secretary of defense to seize voting machines. It was never issued.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why was this on a broader scale, a bad idea for the country?

CIPOLLONE: To have the federal government seize voting machines, it's a terrible idea. That's not how we do things in the United States. There's no legal authority to do that.

SCHNEIDER: Trump said he wanted to appoint Sidney Powell special council and give her security clearance. It's a move that White House Counsel Pat Cipollone said would be a grave mistake. He, along with other cabinet members, encouraged Trump to concede the election.

EUGENE SCALIA, FORMER TRUMP SECRETARY OF LABOR: I conveyed to him that I thought that it was time for him to acknowledge that President Biden had prevailed in the election.

CIPOLLONE: If your question is, did I believe he should concede the election, at that point in time, yes, I did.

SCHNEIDER: The following day, Trump sent out this tweet, calling for supporters to gather in Washington, saying, be there, will be wild, which set off an intense social media campaign to promote the January 6th rally. The committee presented evidence that Trump's call to march to the Capitol was planned in advance, presenting a draft tweet never sent that reads in part, massive crowds expected, march to the Capitol after. Instead, one rally organizer texted that POTUS is going to call for it unexpectedly.

Trump adlibbed parts of his Ellipse speech calling for rally-goers to march to the Capitol. This encouraged rioters, like Stephen Ayres, who has pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct for entering the Capitol illegally.

STEPHEN AYRES, CAPITOL RIOTER: Basically, the president got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. So, we basically were just following what he said.

REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): Did you think that the president would be marching with you?

AYRES: Yes, I think everybody thought he was going to be coming down. He said in his speech, kind of like he's going to be there with us. So, I mean, I believed it.

SCHNEIDER: The call to Washington also attracted far-right groups, like the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, both of which had strong connections to Trump allies Roger Stone and Michael Flynn. Former Oath Keeper Spokesman Jason Van Tatenhove testified before the committee the grave danger these groups pose to the country.

JASON VAN TATENHOVE, FORMER OATH KEEPERS SPOKESPERSON: I think we need to quit mincing words and just talk about truths, and what it was going to be was an armed revolution.

This could have been the spark that started a new civil war, and no one would have won there.

SCHNEIDER: The committee ultimately making its case Trump should be held accountable for the events of January 6th.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): President Trump is a 76-year-old man. He is not an impressionable child.

And Donald Trump cannot escape responsibility by being willfully blind.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (on camera): And Vice Chair Liz Cheney also talked about the fact that they have information that Trump has tried to contact a witness and they've referred it to the Justice Department. John, DOJ hasn't responded to this new information of possible witness tampering, but, interestingly, Chairman Bennie Thompson confirmed that the committee has finally started handing over details to the DOJ about the hundreds of interviews the committee has already done. This has long been a tension point between the committee and Justice Department and it all comes as the feds continue to ramp up their sprawling criminal investigation. John?

BERMAN: Yes, a potentially important development.

Jessica Schneider, thank you so much for that.

KEILAR: And joining us to discuss, CNN Anchor and Correspondent Audie Cornish and Assistant Professor of Law at Brooklyn Law School Alexis Hoag-Fordjour.

Alexis, where are we now? Where did this hearing leave us?

ALEXIS HOAG-FORDJOUR, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF LAW, BROOKLYN LAW SCHOOL: Yes. I think it was extremely important to hear that these breadcrumbs are being laid and the purpose is for really two reasons. One, we have potentially the Department of Justice that can take up these issues, potentially as criminal charges moving forward. We know that the committee does not have the power to prosecute but they can refer matters to DOJ, which we already know that they're doing. And then the second part is that the committee, at some point, is going to be issuing a report.

I believe it's going to be timed shortly before the midterm elections. So, is the American public, are the voters going to take up these breadcrumbs and respond accordingly at the midterm elections?

BERMAN: Can I ask if you're talking about a legal referral or possible legal action, what did we hear yesterday that makes that more or less likely?

HOAG-FORDJOUR: We heard dots slowly being connected, again, that DOJ will pick up, not necessarily the committee themselves to prosecute, that could point to, again, seditious conspiracy, which is sort of a lesser included offense of treason, whether that's Trump or other key actors. We also have information from Representative Liz Cheney, the vice chair, at the very end, we heard from the committee that Trump was potentially engaged in witness tampering.

[07:10:07]

That is a federal offense and it's not just actual, but the attempt to tamper with a witness.

KEILAR: I also wonder if this hearing set -- if it met the mark that Bennie Thompson, the chair, had set when he was saying that they did have these connections between Trump world and extremists. Did you think that he sort of made good on his promise for what they had?

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think we're always sort of conflating what's necessary for a criminal prosecution and what's necessary for the public, what's necessary for the congressional record, what's necessary to prevent this from happening in the future. To that end, I thought the most intriguing part was the anonymous Twitter employee who spoke out, because that person interpreted some of those tweets as being a direct communication of sorts and was saying this actually scared them.

I don't think it's an accident this person is anonymous because they also spoke about the idea that Twitter was conflicted when it came to regulating Trump in any way or moderating his speech, because he was their biggest, proudest user.

I want everyone to step back and think about what this moment would be like if the president, if the former president was still on Twitter. We've only been hearing about what he thinks and sort of how he's feeling about these hearings kind of secondhand through Truth Social, et cetera. Imagine if he still had that platform now.

BERMAN: You also, Audie, thought the line of questioning, the moments with this convicted rioter were interesting, Stephen Ayres. What did you see there?

CORNISH: What I saw was the committee trying to frame this person as a little bit of a victim. Did you feel used by Trump? Did you feel tricked by Trump? It was sort of this idea that you were suckered into this election lie. But I think of the Capitol police officer, I believe it was Dunn, made an excellent point last night, which he said there's choice and then there's sacrifice. So, while there are some people who maybe chose this path and are suffering a consequence from it, there are others who did not choose it and are suffering it as well, be it election workers, the Capitol police themselves and in some ways the country, right, that's going through this kind of paroxysm of cultural stress.

BERMAN: Can I just ask, is there a legal reasoning? And, again, this is not a legal format and I think you're absolutely right pointing out that there are separate things going on here. And just because may be legal or illegal, it doesn't it's not important. But the committee chose to suggest that he was there because of Trump, that but for Trump, he might not have been there.

CORNISH: Exactly.

BERMAN: And, Professor, is there a legal reason ultimately that they would do that?

HOAG-FORDJOUR: Again, I think it's important for the American public to be educated. This is why these hearings are public. This investigation is not just the nine members of the committee, it's 40 members, 40 sort of investigators, which include the U.S. attorney.

So, there's always going to be a shadow of preparing elements for potential prosecution, but, again, as Audie mentioned, it's doing two very separate things, educating the public and then potentially leaving these breadcrumbs for DOJ to put together.

CORNISH: And speaking to people like Ayres, people who would have gone to the rally, people who feel like maybe this is a show trial, who believe things that Trump is saying. The committee and Liz Cheney specifically seems to also be speaking to that community and giving them in a way a kind of public off-ramp, saying, look, we get it, you may have been drawn into this, but look what happened to people who are. Think about this in a serious kind of the consequences of this.

And I think that also reflects the fact that the hearings are having more of an impact than certainly Republicans, the RNC expected that they would.

KEILAR: Ayres testified Trump sends out the tweet essentially calling off the mob and that's when he left. I mean, he's making it clear, if Trump had said something sooner, then maybe he would have left.

The question I have on moral versus legal culpability, though, is, sure, I mean, we can totally see that Trump is morally culpable from this hearing. But he is impervious to shame. He is running for president again, it certainly appears. It doesn't appear that that's going to stop him.

So, without some sort of legal culpability, where does that leave us other than with someone who did this before could be inclined to do it again and doesn't care about whether this is going to stop him or not? It doesn't seem that he will.

HOAG-FORDJOUR: Agreed. And what I thought particularly frustrating about some of the testimony we heard yesterday is, where were these truth tellers at the impeachment trial in February of 2021? And so we have testimony right now from Cipollone, from Herschmann, the, quote/unquote, normal folks at that December 18th meeting, where you had Sidney Powell on the one hand and sort of normal White House folks on the other hand, saying that they knew Trump's plan was nuts, that there wasn't evidence to support it, that it was likely illegal, warning other people not to go to the Capitol.

[07:15:04]

Where was this information --

CORNISH: The truth tellers are here by subpoena now.

HOAG-FORDJOUR: Exactly. That's what he did.

BERMAN: It's double-sided. One is that these people certainly could have come and volunteered that information any time they want, the other part is the Democrats in the second impeachment trial chose not to call witnesses because it would prolong the event. But who knows what would happen had they done it.

Audie, there's one more hearing we know of, we believe it to be next week. What's left, do you think, for this committee to do?

CORNISH: Well, they're saving this kind of moment for the end, so to speak. I can't guarantee that it will be the end. But there is that a gap in time between the start of that riot and when the White House goes silent before we hear Trump come out with a statement. So, what happened during that time? Who was the president speaking to? Who were his allies speaking to? What happened between them and security officials? Did they reach out to the Defense Department? Did they say, we need to send more support to the police? All of those questions about, in a way, this part of the hearing will be about inaction. What didn't the president do, why didn't he do it at that time, and does that also signal part of sort of a broader plan to maintain power through what was supposed to be a day of peaceful transition?

BERMAN: Audie Cornish, Professor, thank you both so much for being with us this morning, great to see you both. And congratulations.

KEILAR: Yes, congratulations.

So, this morning, new surveillance video reveals the clearest account of the delayed police response to the Robb Elementary School shooting in Uvalde, Texas, just heavily armed officers failing to breach the classroom for more than an hour as the gunman continued firing.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is live for us in San Antonio with more. Shimon, we knew what was on this tape, but there is something different about seeing it, especially after how many lies we've heard about the response.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, and seeing officers who we were led to believe certainly in the first few hours, in the first few days, were running towards the gunfire. But you see officers here running away from the gunfire, doing everything they shouldn't have been doing.

And we know what's on the other side of those walls, the kids that are inside that classroom. For the family members, they are angry, they are upset in a way that this video came out. They were not prepared for it to be released in the way that we see it here today. And, of course, this is all because this is so disturbing. And we should warn our viewers that this video is disturbing and difficult to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PROKUPECZ (voice over): May 24 outside Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas, an edited version of surveillance video shows the gunman crashing his vehicle and then running toward the school. Released by the Austin American-Statesman, at 11:32, the video shows the first shots fired outside the school. A teacher called 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kids are running. Oh, my God. Get in your room, get in your rooms. Get in your rooms.

PROKUPECZ: At 11:33, another surveillance camera shows the gunman entering an empty hallway, unhindered, walking casually with his gun hanging down. He slows down and peeks around the corner. A boy sees him as he starts shooting and the boy runs.

According to the Statesman, the gunman fired his weapon, an AR-15- style rifle, inside two classrooms for two and a half minutes, stopping and starting multiple times. The surveillance video shows seven police officers entering the hallway within three minutes, armed, some with rifles. Within one minute, more shots are fired, 16 rounds in total. And police can be seen retreating, running back down the hallway to take cover.

Then at 11:52, 19 minutes after the gunman entered the school, the video shows more officers arriving, heavily armed, some with ballistic shields. Still, they wait.

At 12:04, 31 minutes after the gunman entered the school, law enforcement is still waiting. At least 19 officers are now in the hallway, according to the official timeline.

At 12:21, 45 minutes after police arrived, the gunman fires another four shots and police start to move down the hallway again, but remaining outside the classrooms.

At 12:31, an officer is seen using the hand sanitizer.

At 12:43 and 12:47, more 911 calls for help, and the caller says children are aware the police are outside the door.

[07:20:01]

Then at 12:50, 74 minutes after police first entered the school, officers breached the classroom door and killed the gunman.

At this point, the video shows officers in the hallway pushing to go in. The surveillance video reveals how police waited for more than 70 minutes in the hallway, at times, some rushing toward the classrooms, other officers hanging back.

Despite that, some officials are outraged by the video's release. During a city council meeting, Uvalde's mayor expressed his anger at the media.

MAYOR DON MCLAUGHLIN, UVALDE, TEXAS: I want to go on the record. The way that video was released is one of the most sickening things I've ever seen.

There's no reason for those families to have to see -- they don't need to relive that. They've been through enough.

PROKUPECZ: As for the families of those 19 students and 2 teachers who were massacred at Robb Elementary, some say the video's release has caused them more pain.

JAVIER CAZARES, FATHER OF UVALDE VICTIM: It got leaked. It got shown all over the world. And we are pissed. These families didn't deserve it. I don't deserve it. That's a slap to our babies' faces and we're tired of this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: And, Shimon, I mean, we hear officials outraged by the leak of this video to the media. I think we should be clear that whatever the feelings of the family members are, they're certainly valid. But these officials who are so upset by this, it seems like a bit of a distraction. The video is what it is and it was going to be released. PROKUPECZ: Right, it was going to be released. It was expected to be released on Sunday. But there was a plan in place for the families to be together, to watch this together. They were going to have counselors available for them, clergy available for them.

The thing is, I think, that people need to understand for these families, this is how they learn information. It's usually from outside sources, outside government sources. Yes, reporters on the ground doing the work that needs to be done. But I think that they really feel betrayed. They feel betrayed, obviously, by the law enforcement, by community leaders, by the politicians, and then to see something like this come out in this way, they weren't really prepared. They were preparing for Sunday. Sunday was the day that they were going to be together, they were going to have the opportunity to ask questions of legislators who have been running this investigation.

But for them to see it come out this way, they just feel it was cold, it was just not the right way to do it, that they shouldn't be at home seeing this video pop up on Facebook. A lot of them are on Facebook. This is how they're communicating with one another. They have groups. And that started, the video started popping up on Facebook and they couldn't believe what they saw.

And that is potentially why, in part, they are upset. But, obviously, watching this video and seeing these officers standing around for so long, knowing the kids were inside and not doing anything, ultimately, that obviously is what is so, so, so upsetting to them.

KEILAR: Yes. Look, someone chose to leak this to the media and you wonder if this would have been different if the way information were released over the course and the way information were shared and lies were told was different. Shimon, thank you so much, you've been doing outstanding reporting. We appreciate it.

So, next, an apology from a rioter to police officers who were hurt in the attack on the Capitol, he's going to join us live.

And also joining us, Dr. Anthony Fauci with a new warning about the COVID variants that are rapidly spreading across the country.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a live shooting here. There's a live shooter. There's a live shooter. There's a live shooter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: A little league game cut short by gunfire, the terrifying moments captured by a mother, and she will join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:25:00]

BERMAN: An emotional moment at the January 6th committee hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RASKIN: Last month on June 28th, Sergeant Gonell's team of doctors told him the permanent injuries he has suffered to his left shoulder and right foot now make it impossible for him to continue as a police officer. He must leave policing for good and figure out the rest of his life.

I wonder what former President Trump would say to someone like Sergeant Gonell who must now go about remaking his life. I wonder if he can even understand what motivates a patriot like Sergeant Gonell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Congressman Jamie Raskin praising Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell's heroism, the permanent injuries he suffered on January 6th now forcing him to leave policing for good.

Joining us now is U.S. Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell. Sergeant, thank you so much for being with us.

I think I learned along with the rest of the country that you were retiring, leaving policing. How do you feel about that?

STAFF SGT. AQUILINO GONELL, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE: Thanks for having me, John. It's a life-changing moment for me. I mean, I had to plan -- now, instead of celebrating a promotion since I passed the lieutenant test, now I have to plan my retirement and my life with those injuries.

So, it was a nice tribute from the committee, from Jamie Raskin. I greatly appreciate it. But people need to understand that what happened on January 6th, it was horrible. And if it wasn't for some of the office or for some of the people or the mob, it was horrible for me, and it still is. Because I still have to --even if I leave the department, when I leave the department, it's not under my own terms, and I'm still involved in some of the investigations that will follow me when I leave.

So, thank you for that tribute.

[07:30:02]

That's one thing that I just had to say to the committee.