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Interview with Ambassador John Bolton on President Trump's Claims to have Declassified Documents Found at Mar-a-Lago and U.S. Policy toward Iran; Former New York City Mayor and Trump Against Rudy Giuliani Target of Investigation in Georgia into Claims of Voter Fraud; Secretary of Education on Teacher Shortage Across Nation. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 16, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I never heard of it, never saw it in operation, never knew anything about it. The president never said anything to me during 17 months there. I just think it's a complete fiction.

Look, the president said he had to take classified materials to his residence, and therefore, he declassified them by doing that. Look, nobody's worried about unauthorized people in the residence quarters at the White House. If there are unauthorized people there, we have got a problem a lot more serious than documents being compromised.

Moreover, if this existed, there had to be some way to memorialize it. The White House counsel had to write it down. Otherwise, how would people throughout the government know what to declassify? You don't declassify a document just as to Donald Trump. If a document is declassified, it's declassified. And no such record keeping system existed. And I think this is just a sign of how worried the president's advisers are about the nature of the problem he's in right now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A fiction, you called it.

BOLTON: Yes. Look. If he has declassified hundreds, maybe thousands of documents that he took to the residence because he worked very hard on this at night, as we all know, over four years, the media should be filing Freedom of Information Act requests for all documents declassified by Donald Trump pursuant to this standing order. I'd love to see what gets produced.

BERMAN: And we know from seeing the receipt of items taken from Mar- a-Lago that there was a box labeled as SCI, sensitive compartmented information. Can you think of any reason a former president would have to have sensitive compartmented information in his residence?

BOLTON: No. Look, in a normal administration a president is quite likely to write memoirs. He'll want and deserves access to highly classified information. Arrangements are made for former presidents and indeed for former cabinet officers who leave under happy circumstances, that SCIFs are set up that they can go to and look at this classified information. I don't think there's any explanation that carries any weight whatever why Trump just didn't follow the normal procedures, except he thought he wasn't subjected to procedures.

BERMAN: We've now seen this Department of Justice response in a filing to an effort by media organizations to get a hold of this affidavit that led to the search of Mar-a-Lago. And in this Department of Justice response fighting it, they say that there is highly classified material in the affidavit. They also say, "Disclosure of the government's affidavit at this stage would also likely chill future cooperation by witnesses whose assistance may be sought as this investigation progresses as well as in other high-profile investigations." You've worked on sort of both sides of this, Ambassador, inside the Department of Justice and also inside the security world. How do you read this filing?

BOLTON: Well, I think it says there are very significant problems here for President Trump and many of his advisers post presidency. But I think we have got to distinguish between the legal battle that's going on and the political battle. I think the Justice Department position sounds perfectly reasonable on the legal battle, but on the political battle, I think they're being overwhelmed by Donald Trump. If we were in a coliseum with two gladiators, one of them Donald Trump, the other Merrick Garland, we'd be about to witness the slaughter of the lambs.

The Justice Department understandably wants to follow its normal procedures. It is facing an adversary who couldn't care less about normal procedures. And I do think the department has got to do more here. I know it's hard, but they're still not doing enough to explain why this search warrant was executed and why now they don't want to release the affidavit.

Last night, for example, when they filed their motion, they should have put somebody on camera at the Department of Justice reading from it. They should have tweeted it. They should have sent it to every member of Congress. I'm not asking them to say more than what they have said in their court filing, but they have got to do more to explain what they're up to. And they've got to think of creative ways to justify it to a very skeptical public in many respects.

BERMAN: So you're saying better P.R., but are you saying they should release the affidavit, parts of the affidavit, or let members of Congress see some of the classified material? What's your view on that?

BOLTON: Look, the argument is that you can't even release a redacted version of the affidavit because most of it would be redacted. I'm not surprised by that. I can't -- I don't know what the documents are. I don't know what sensitive sources they've spoken to. I'm just saying that you've got to be more realistic about the political environment that they're operating under.

And I would say this, I think this is something if President Biden thinks this is a legitimate investigation, he needs to say something. Other politicians need to weigh in.

[08:05:03]

Otherwise, to pick a Watergate metaphor, right now the Department of Justice is twisting slowly, slowly in the wind. It is a target for Donald Trump, and it's not being defended.

BERMAN: In your book, you refer to former New York city mayor Rudy Giuliani as a swamp creature. And I don't think you meant that as a term of endearment. And Fiona Hill testified of Rudy Giuliani, you said that he is a hand grenade that is going to blow everything up. That was in relation to the situation with the call to Ukraine. Ambassador, how surprised are you to see the former New York City mayor now as a target of an investigation in Georgia?

BOLTON: Well, I have to say, I'm very saddened by that this. I'm saddened that this has happened to Rudy Giuliani, and I think it's going to happen to other people. But it tells me that President Trump may be right behind him in terms of liability. If Rudy is in trouble as the target of an investigation, then I think Trump almost certainly is as well.

BERMAN: I do want to ask you about Iran, if I can, for a second here. On Friday, author Salman Rushdie stabbed, he's recovering, thankfully, this morning, but with life changing injuries. Iran has denied any responsibility for the stabbing attack on Friday, but in some ways has celebrated it. You were the target of an Iranian assassination operation. There was money offered to kill you. What does this say about Iran and how it operates today, its sense of impunity, and where it is on the world stage?

BOLTON: Well, I think that's the critical question when we come to a range of issues, including Iran's general support for international terrorism, but most importantly, its pursuit of nuclear weapons. The Biden administration, like following the Holy Grail, made concessions for the last 17 months to worm its way back into the deal, which was a bad deal to begin with. This is a regime for which commitments mean absolutely nothing. They're prepared to make a lot of commitments to break free of the economic sanctions that have been imposed since the U.S. withdrew from the deal, and to get back money that has been frozen. They're not going to slow their nuclear program down in the slightest.

And I think really when Congress comes back after Labor Day, people need to tell the administration you are pursuing a dangerous path for the United States. These assassination plots against Masih Alinejad, an Iranian American human rights advocate in New York, against Salman Rushdie, not just against me, but against former Secretary of Defense Mark Esper, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and many other people, show the Iranians think they can proceed with impunity. And until we demonstrate to the contrary, I think a lot more people will be vulnerable as well.

BERMAN: Ambassador John Bolton, we appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you for your time, sir.

BOLTON: Thank you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Prosecutors in Georgia informing Rudy Giuliani that he is a target of their 2020 election interference investigation. The former Trump attorney has been ordered by an Atlanta area judge to appear in person before a special grand jury tomorrow. CNN's Nick Valencia is live outside of the courthouse in Atlanta with the latest here. Nick?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Brianna. Rudy Giuliani had tried to delay his testimony before the special purpose grand jury here in Georgia, but a Fulton County judge ruled that he must appear tomorrow. He'll be doing so as a target of this criminal investigation, a significant development. This is the first time a member of former President Trump's inner circle has been named as a target of this criminal investigation, an investigation that began with the now infamous phone call between the former president and Georgia's secretary of state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: All I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.

VALENCIA: This now infamous call --

TRUMP: And flipping the state is a great testament to our country.

VALENCIA: -- helped to spark a special purpose grand jury investigation in Georgia, but it's not only what he said, but what he said, setting up a possible showdown in Atlanta.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER: They have now told me I am the target -- I'm a target of their Atlanta investigation.

VALENCIA: The ex-president's former lawyer Rudy Giuliani now a target in the investigation into whether Donald Trump and his allies violated the law in their attempt to flip election results in Georgia. Investigators scrutinizing Giuliani's appearances before state lawmakers in 2020, where he pedaled baseless claims of widespread irregularities and voter fraud, attacking voting machines.

GIULIANI: Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, this is not a machine you want counting your votes.

[08:10:00]

VALENCIA: And a week later, Georgia election workers.

GIULIANI: They look like they're passing out dope, not just ballots. It is quite clear they're stealing votes.

VALENCIA: Those statements came after other false claims Giuliani made regarding the Georgia recount following Trump's loss.

GIULIANI: They're counting the same fraudulent ballots. The recount being done in Georgia will tell us nothing because these fraudulent ballots will just be counted again.

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: In the case of Rudy Giuliani, you know, his involvement in all the other stuff, but also his involvement in attempting to influence the Georgia legislature and making false statements to the Georgia legislature about the existing -- existence of fraud. And you can't make false -- you can say whatever you want on TV, but if you make false statements to the government and government officials like the legislators, that's potentially a crime.

GIULIANI: We're starting to live in a fascist state.

VALENCIA: Giuliani on Monday seeming to give a glimpse into a possible defense.

GIULIANI: I was his lawyer of record in that case. The statements that I made are either attorney-client privileged because they were between me and him, or they were made on his behalf in order to defend him.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: There is a crime fraud exception, and if they're sitting and talking about criminal activity, there's no attorney client privilege.

VALENCIA: The news about Rudy Giuliani being targeted coming the same day that they ruled Lindsey Graham of South Carolina must testify before the Fulton County grand jury. He denies pressuring Georgia's secretary of state to toss legal ballots and is expected to testify next week. Giuliani is expected to appear Wednesday. No word if he will invoke his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

DEAN: I think this is moving ahead full speed, and I expect that it will be a pretty devastating case that will include Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

VALENCIA (on camera): Getting answers out of Giuliani may prove to be a very tall task for this special purpose grand jury. Giuliani's attorney says, though his client is expected to appear, he can make no promises how responsive he will be. Brianna?

KEILAR: Perhaps a preview there. Nick Valencia live for us in Atlanta.

As students are heading back to school, there is a teacher shortage across the country. So what needs to be done? We'll ask Education Secretary Miguel Cardona next.

And tag this under my own personal nightmare. A mysterious object falls from the sky and crash lands six feet from someone in Maine. That man is going to join us ahead.

BERMAN: I suppose it matters what object falls mysteriously from the --

KEILAR: Any object at that speed. BERMAN: It is primary day in Alaska and Wyoming. Two Republican

critics of the former president fighting for their seats. We'll discuss ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:24]

KEILAR: America is facing a shortage of teachers, educators leaving the field in droves with few ready to replace them, and for many they say it is just not worth it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILARY COWEN, FORMER TEACHER: It occurred to me one day I would never allow myself to be treated the way I was being treated as a professional educator in any other area of my life.

RYAN COLE, TEACHER: Do more, do more, do more, cost of living is going up, we don't get paid a lot to begin with, I work a full other job 25 hours a week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now is a secretary of education, Miguel Cardona.

Sir, thank you so much for being with us.

I know you're hearing this from teachers. They have a myriad number of reasons why they are, you know, leaving. Are we at a crisis level here?

MIGUEL CARDONA, EDUCATION SECRETARY: You know, I mentioned across the country, we're at the doorstep of a crisis. And if we don't take it seriously, we're going to be facing what we were experiencing during the omicron spread where our teachers didn't have COVID, but they had to quarantine. We couldn't keep our schools open.

Look, across the country today students are preparing or are going into school for the first day. There is so much promise, so much hope and I'm excited about this school year. But we have to address this issue head on. We have to make sure that our teachers are getting a competitive salary.

You know, teachers make 20 percent less than college graduates in other professions.

And in states like Montana, for example, a starting salary is $32,000. What are you going to do with that?

You know, that's why as your clip showed, teachers have to get other jobs. They're driving Uber on the weekends. That's unacceptable in this country with teachers with master degrees to have to do that.

They bent over backwards for students the last couple of years and before. We need to make sure we're honoring our educators, paying them a competitive salary but also providing them working conditions where they can grow and feel heard as we re-imagine our schools.

KEILAR: So, Secretary, you've heard there are so many different creative ways that states and districts are approaching this.

In Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis has a program to get veterans in the classroom as teachers.

I want to talk to you about the specifics of this program, because it does include veterans. This is for veterans who do not have a bachelor's degree and actually are far from it, but working towards it.

First, though, let's look at why DeSantis said this is needed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): For too long, the requirements to be a teacher have been too rigid, with union bosses insisting that all educators get certain credentials that often have little impact on teaching performance.

Every morning, our students recite the Pledge of Allegiance, while looking at "The Star-Spangled Banner". And it is fitting that the teacher in the classroom is somebody who took an oath and put his or her life on the line to preserve, protect and defend our flag and the freedom it represents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: He says requirements to be a teacher have been too rigid. What do you say to that?

CARDONA: You know, across the country, what I'm hearing from parents is they want to make sure their children can catch up. You know, the pandemic robbed them of a lot of time with their teachers, time with their classmates. It's really important that we make sure that our teachers are qualified and have the training necessary to teach.

Again, let's respect the profession. It is a profession. And, you know, in Florida, for example, they're 45th out of 50 states in teachers making a livable wage. I think that's an issue that should be addressed also in Florida.

Again, right now, across the country, we're dealing with shortages. There are short-term solutions that we're encouraging at the federal department of education such as using the American Rescue Plan dollars to incentivize teachers to come back in, provide bonuses, bring teachers back out of retirement without affecting their benefits, using the federal dollars.

[08:20:11]

But long-term solutions are also needed. In Tennessee, we have an apprenticeship program that provides pathway for students to become teachers. In Nevada, I saw in high school, high school students learning to become teachers and they're going to be going to UNLV to get their degree and they go back into that same community that served them. We need short term and long term solutions.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Can I ask you -- in Florida, it is a little bit of that, because you're talking about veterans who have four years in military service, minimum 60 college credits, so minimum two years of college, they have to be working toward their bachelor's, it would be a temporary certificate they get a passing score on a Florida subject area examination.

Is that insufficient or do you think this is creative and worth a look?

CARDONA: You know, I don't have the details of the Florida program specifically. I love anything that's going to provide opportunities for those who are looking into the teaching profession. And ensuring they're connected to good teacher preparation programs that teach pedagogy and ensuring that the educators have skills needed to meet the needs of our students, the ever growing needs of our students. That's critical.

While I don't have the details of the Florida program, I will say that getting teachers into the classroom is step one. Keeping them there is critically important thing as well.

And as we heard from the clip before I started speaking, too many teachers across the country are not feeling the respect they deserve and are not feeling the working conditions are conducive to their growth. We need to change that.

KEILAR: One thing they're not feeling respect on is this tax deduction. We know that teachers spend a lot of money out of pocket on their students. The out of pocket expense tax deduction just got a bump of 50 bucks from 250 to 300. Is that enough?

CARDONA: You know, it has become almost the norm for teachers to do more with less, and to be expected to pay out of their pocket for supplies that should be provided by districts.

With the American Rescue Plan dollars, that shouldn't be an issue. We should make sure our classrooms are fully funded. That our students are getting the support that they need.

So, you know, while I understand the question is about the tax credit, let's take a step back and say, let's make sure our schools have the resources they need so teachers are not dipping into their own pockets, to make sure that kids get what they need.

KEILAR: This 1-2 punch of learning loss during and because of COVID. I mean, we're going to see a lot of remediation needed for this and we're talking especially with the most vulnerable students in the U.S., coupled with the effects of this teacher shortage.

Are you worried that we are going to see a generational impact that we'll see the effects of for years? CARDONA: You know, I am worried that if we're not taking it

seriously, we will. In those states that are not looking at this as a potential issue for their state, I do believe that it can develop into a generational issue.

At this point, what I know is happening across the country is that these federal funds are being used for summer programming, for tutoring, to provide additional support for those students as you mentioned who were impacted the most by the pandemic -- our students with disabilities, our students who didn't have access to technology early on in the pandemic.

I am seeing the funds being used for that, I want to encourage that to be the case, but I also want our states to think about long-term solutions.

The American Rescue Plan was intended to reopen schools safely, provide the support that our students need to catch up. However, an investment will be needed by state and local leaders to make sure they're doing their fair share with the same level of urgency as the president to keep our educators supported and keep our students learning at high levels. That's how we're going to compete internationally.

KEILAR: All right, such an important topic as our kids are starting school and what should be a beautiful new year for them and they're confronting this.

Secretary Cardona, thank you for being with us this morning.

CARDONA: Thank you. Thank you.

KEILAR: Primary voters in Alaska are heading to the polls this morning. Are they going to send Sarah Palin to Washington?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And the latest in the trial surrounding photos taken at Kobe Bryant's deadly helicopter crash. Why the county fire chief walked off the stand three times during testimony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:21]

BERMAN: It is primary day in Alaska and Wyoming. Former Alaska governor and Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin vying to fill Alaska's lone seat in Congress. Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski, the only Republican senator up for re-election this year who voted to convict Trump is on the ballot.

And in Wyoming, Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, vocal Trump critic and vice chair of the January 6th committee is facing off against Trump-backed challenger Harriet Hageman.

Let's go to CNN's Jeff Zeleny who is in beautiful Wyoming for us this morning.

Good morning to you, Jeff.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. It is primary election day here.

And by the end of today, Congresswoman Liz Cheney is going to know her fate, whether she's going to be elected essentially for a primary at least for her fourth term in Congress or if she will fall like many of her House ten Republicans, the ten Republicans who voted for the former president's impeachment.

This is a very uphill climb for her. She realizes that. But one thing she is doing in the final days of this campaign is trying to reach out to Democrats and independents, urging them to switch over.

Listen to Annette Langley who we talked to yesterday about why she is voting for Cheney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNETTE LANGLEY, JACKSON, WYOMING RESIDENT: I had to change my party today to vote for Liz Cheney because I'm really concerned about the misinformation that is going around the country, and I never thought I would vote for Cheney, but she has earned my respect over her handling of the hearings over January 6th, and I just -- I felt she needed -- she might not win, but she needs as much support as possible for doing what she's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So that is something that we heard again and again. I never thought I would vote for a Cheney.

[08:30:00]