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Cheney Faces Uphill Battle; Threats to Law Enforcement; Craig Donahue is Interviewed about Almost Being Hit with Airline Debris. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 16, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So that is something that we heard again and again, I never thought I would vote for a Cheney. The question, though, are there enough Democrats and independents to make up, you know, the vast Republican math here in Wyoming. The answer probably is no, but we will see how the primary goes.

Now, polling places, like the one behind me here, the old Wilson schoolhouse, open in about 30 minutes or so. They'll be open until 7:00 p.m. here. The question, though, really is more looking forward. Liz Cheney, if she falls short today, what are her next steps? I'm told her speech tonight will offer a path forward for her ultimate goal, which still remains trying to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office.

John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jeff Zeleny for us this morning, in Wilson. Jeff, great to see you. Thank you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's bring in our panel to talk about this, CNN political director David Chalian, CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp, and CNN political commentator and former special assistant to President George W. Bush, Scott Jennings.

What does this battleground, S.E., in Wyoming signify to you?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I think we know what's going to happen to Liz Cheney. I think the writing's been on the wall since she decided to make Trump her number one target and keeping him from the White House her number one priority. I think she's resigned to that.

But, clearly, if you've decided in today's political climate to take on Trump as the other ten Republicans did on that -- who voted to impeach, you're probably not going to win that battle. You might - you might - you might win the war in that enough people are coming together to try and marginalize Trump, but you're not going to win this battle. The energy is too strong. A certain kind of energy is too strong around Donald Trump. I think you know what I mean.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I -- come on. CUPP: I'm keeping it classy. I'm keeping it classy.

JENNINGS: Yes.

KEILAR: A reference to a comment about energy yesterday. You can Google it. I'll leave it at that.

CUPP: I'm keeping it classy.

JENNINGS: Having worked for the Cheneys in the White House, I never thought I'd see the day when we had Democrats coming out and saying, I'm voting -- I'm voting for the - I am I'm old enough to remember when they were calling to throw Dick Cheney in the war crimes jail, and now we've got Democrats voting for the Cheneys in Wyoming.

I - look, I think there is a difference between what Liz Cheney did and say what Lisa Murkowski did. Both cast the same vote. Also, a difference between what they did and what Brian Kemp did.

You actually, in some instances, can go against Donald Trump, but what Cheney did was make it her entire life's direction.

CUPP: Yes.

JENNINGS: Like, this is her one and only mission. Kemp, Murkowski, they just sort of ignored Trump and they just kind of moved on with their lives and it looks like they're going to be -- well, Kemp did win and it looks like Murkowski's going to be OK.

So, I actually think there's a path out of challenging him and it's just not -

CUPP: (INAUDIBLE).

JENNINGS: Not making him the center of your life. Now, that's her choice and she'll going to be a national candidate, I presume, and that's her goal. But you can -- you actually, I think, can navigate this if you just think it through a little bit.

CUPP: But, I mean, interesting. She's not the only one whose image has been kind of remade by Donald Trump. He has had this effect, right? I mean 2012 Democrats told us Mitt Romney was a monster. Literally a monster. His image has shifted. John McCain was always a war hero, but lots of people thought also a warmonger. His reputation and his family has sort of shifted. Trump has done some stuff to Republicans and even some Democrats to make them look a little different after him.

JENNINGS: But he also still has a clear hold on the party.

CUPP: Yes.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And if indeed we hear from Liz Cheney tonight, at some hint toward some 2024 ambition, or to -- I'm not sure it's clear that there's a path there for her to the Republican presidential nomination, any clearer a path than it is to re-election here in Wyoming. BERMAN: Well, talk more about that. We're here with management, I

should say, David Chalian, (INAUDIBLE).

JENNINGS: I told you HR was going to come for (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: I know. They are.

KEILAR: Well, here they are.

BERMAN: Jeff Zeleny talks about a future for Liz Cheney. What does that mean? What are the range of realistic possibilities?

CHALIAN: Listen, she's not going to actually announce a presidential campaign tonight. I don't think that. But I do think, my understanding is, her team is preparing for her to give a speech that what S.E. is saying, this goal of keeping Donald Trump out of the Oval Office is going to remain front and center as her goal. And so she's not taking a 2024 run off the table. It means she wants to continue having a voice. She will have the January 6th commission through the rest of this year at least, if indeed she does lose and her term is up, and I envision that she is going to want a voice in that Republican Party process. I just don't know if given the way the party is structured right now that there is a real path to the nomination for president for Liz Cheney.

JENNINGS: Right. It seems (ph) very unlikely (ph).

BERMAN: What about -- what about third party?

CUPP: (INAUDIBLE).

CHALIAN: I mean, perhaps a third party, John, but I don't see a lot of success for third parties in American presidential politics.

CUPP: Also, I mean, her politics are very polarizing. I know that she has become, you know, a friend to Democrats because of her positioning on Trump, but she's very conservative.

[08:35:03]

I don't see a natural, you know, voting bloc for Liz Cheney. She's to the right of me. And, you know, Democrats might like her right now, but as I said earlier, people - people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime and I think she's in Democrats' life right now for a reason. And once she has done her job, they'll remember how darn conservative she is.

KEILAR: And maybe this season, but maybe not a lifetime.

CUPP: Definitely not a lifetime.

KEILAR: Is Mrs. Palin going to Washington?

JENNINGS: Good chance of it. We'll see. I mean, you know, she had, on the one hand, was a -- sort of an electrifying figure when she came on the scene. I remember being on the floor of the Republican National Convention when she gave that speech. And we've - we've come a long way since - since that night.

But, you also remember, she quit the governor's office. She became a reality star. She kind of left Alaska. That - I think that left a bad taste in some people's mouths.

She was sort of the prototype for the performative politics that Donald Trump ultimately perfected. And now it's come full circle.

So, we'll see. My suspicion is she's not going to love the congressional life as much the -

CUPP: Yes.

JENNINGS: Being a vice presidential candidate or a reality TV star life. But, you know, it's only a two-year job if you want to - if you want to get out.

KEILAR: A season, if you will, a season.

CUPP: Uh, yes.

BERMAN: So, David, there are Democrats looking -- and this story was first published by "The New York Times," saying that - what, the Republican campaign committee for the Senate is pulling some funding for advertising in some key states, including Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, and I'm missing one.

CHALIAN: Yes, I think Nevada was one.

BERMAN: And Arizona.

CHALIAN: And Arizona, yes. I think there were four.

CUPP: Yes.

BERMAN: So what does this mean and not mean?

CHALIAN: Well, I think we have to not overread this. It is never a good look when you are taking reservation money down, right? I mean you're signaling something about your cash flow and you're making priorities and choices. And that happens for all these committees.

It is also, as you know, in this world where you can't directly coordinate with those that want to spend on the outside, one way to signal to your outside partners of where you would like them to spend money is taking your reservations down in places, knowing that a super PAC perhaps can step in and add more money. And Democrats that I've spoken to this morning are not -- will not be surprised if they see the Republican super PAC step in and try to fill some of this gap.

JENNINGS: I think David's exactly right, you shouldn't overread this. This is, without getting to much into the weeds of how this works, they're moving money around and there's different ways the committees can spend money. But there's also the looming, as David illuded to, Senate leadership fund. You know, Senator McConnell's affiliate group on the outside, which has become the biggest spender for Senate races. And I'm just -- on the Pennsylvania piece, Republicans are all in on Pennsylvania. I mean to get to 51, the road runs through Pennsylvania. So, I don't - I wouldn't read that this is Republicans giving up on Dr. Oz.

CHALIAN: They're all in, but they have been behind closed doors quite disappointed in Mehmet Oz's performance thus far. That much is clear through reporting.

BERMAN: They're all in because they have to be, not at this point because they're happy about it.

JENNINGS: Yes, demands it. Absolutely.

BERMAN: David, Scott, S.E., great to see you all. Thank you.

A Pennsylvania man has been charged with threatening to kill FBI agents following the Mar-a-Lago search. We have new details ahead.

KEILAR: This as an FBI organization calls the growing threat of violence against law enforcement real and imminent. How did we get here? We have your "Reality Check" next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:30]

KEILAR: New this morning, an FBI organization rep tells CNN's Josh Campbell that calls for violence against law enforcement are real and imminent. This as a Pennsylvania man faces federal charges for allegedly threatening to kill FBI agents following last week's search of Mar-a-Lago. Writing on social media, quote, if you work for the FBI, then you deserve to die.

John Avlon with our "Reality Check."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Political violence. It's a phrase that should chill the heart of every American because it represents the breakdown of our democracy. And yet, even as Congress completes a stretch with significant bipartisan legislation under President Biden, there are signs that we may be entering a new season of political violence.

Since the FBI searched ex-President Trump's estate to remove top secret documents, the unhinged chatter online has been increasing, with an FBI representative telling CNN overnight that calls for violence against law enforcement are real and imminent. Yesterday we saw the arrest of a Pennsylvania man for threatening to slaughter FBI agents, according to court documents. He hasn't entered a plea yet. That followed an assault on an FBI office in Cincinnati on Thursday that left the shooter dead.

Social media posts attributed to the men presented a similar twisted mindset, pumped up by hyper-partisan propaganda. A new variation on an old virus known as aggressive defensiveness. It's a toxic mix of victimhood and violence. A formula that's been used to radicalize people for centuries. Now, I first heard the term aggressive defensiveness in a book called

"Field of Blood" by Joanne Freeman, which details America's slide toward Civil War in the 1800s. She unearthed the fact that there were over 70 acts of violence between congressmen for the north and south under the Capitol Dome. As she writes, Republicans urged their congressmen to fight in self-defense. Southerners would start a war in Washington in self-defense. Conspiracy theories encouraged this kind of magical thinking.

And so it is today. That's not to say that America's on the verge of civil war, but the underlying excuses for demonizing people with political differences are much the same.

Now, here's a troubling sign from a new survey by Pew Research on the partisan divide. Get this, the number of Republicans and Democrats who believe that people from the opposite party are more immoral than other Americans jumped more than 25 points or more over the past six years. This is kindling. Aggressive defensiveness creates the condition for first strike violence because it's seen as preemptive, a reaction to a perceived existential threat.

[08:45:03]

Now, listen to some of the language used by the man who tried to storm the FBI office in Cincinnati in his Trump Truth Social post that came the day the FBI arrived at Mar-a-Lago. Quote, we can't organize, so we can't plan a rebellion. They've been conditioning us, especially this summer, to feel unable to react, except online and by voting at rigged elections. We must return violence this time.

And then, leave work tomorrow as soon as the gun shop opens. Get whatever you need to be ready for combat. We must not tolerate this ones (ph). They've been conditioning us to accept tyranny.

This is the downstream effect of election lies that try to twist a fairly elected government of the people into an enemy of the people. This isn't just alternative facts. This is alternative reality.

Now, likewise, posts attributed in court documents to the would-be Pennsylvania shooter adopted far right slurs about pedophilia and comparisons of U.S. government agencies to the Nazi SS and calls for civil war.

The more overheated our political rhetoric gets, the more people hear political leaders justify lies and rally supporters to rush to the ramparts with extremist appeals, the more we run the risk that some unhinged soul will take it as an incitement to violence.

Now, since America's civil war, anti-government violence has shifted from white terror organizations like the KKK to radical leftist groups like the Weather Underground in the late '60s and '70s, to white wing extremist groups in recent decades, like the Three Percenters, whose founder told me in an interview over a decade ago that all politics in this country is now just dress rehearsal for civil war. And that was well before members of the Three Percenters stormed the Capitol inspired by a lie. Now, let's be clear, aggressive defensiveness is a threat by people who feel threatened. It's also a coercive political tactic. In the run-up to the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln compared it to a robber who holds a pistol to my ear and mutters through his teeth, stand and deliver or I shall kill you and then you will be a murderer. This is illogical and absurd, but it's not a joke.

Even as we calmly pursue accountability, consistent with the rule of law, we need to ratchet down the rhetoric right now before it's too late, especially from Republican leaders who still want to represent the legacy of Lincoln.

And that's your "Reality Check."

KEILAR: John Avlon, thank you for that.

A piece of debris from an airliner falling out of the sky, barely missing our next guest. He's going to join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:11]

BERMAN: Do you ever get the feeling that the sky is falling? Well, if you're one man in Maine, that feeling is totally legitimate. A nearly 7-pound piece of airplane debris came crashing down outside of the state capital building and just barely missed him.

Joining us now is the man who was just barely missed by this falling object, Maine State Capitol Police Screener Craig Donahue.

Craig, had this hit you, how much would it have hurt?

CRAIG DONAHUE, MAINE CAPITOL POLICE SCREENER: Well, if it hit, probably would have left a pretty good mark. It was seven to eight pounds falling from the sky, unannounced. And would have been a pretty good wake-up call, I think.

KEILAR: What were you thinking? Tell us about how this happened, what it was like, and what you were thinking when you realized what it was.

DONAHUE: I was returning from lunch, heading up a small hill towards the state house, Maine state house. And as I was just looking down, I was cresting the top of the hill, going around a little corner and I heard a loud thud and it sounded like metal rolling on, you know, concrete or metal. There was a ting, ting, ting. And I looked and I'm, like, what the heck is that thing. And it was a 7-inch cylinder, about 5 inches wide, hollow in the middle and grease all over it. And I looked around and I didn't see anybody. There were two guys standing (ph) next to a building and they both came walking toward me and they were like, where did that come from? And we were just looking at each other.

And you look around and if you look around there was nothing going on. It was a Friday afternoon. Sunshine and really there was nobody else up in that area. So, we were kind of looking around and, you know, we didn't (INAUDIBLE) each other, we just looked up. Like, did it fall from the sky? And we're, like, space station stuff? What is this thing?

And so we just kind of looked around and I said, well, they're not going to believe this when I go inside. So I picked it up. I'm, like, holy cow, this thing is heavy. So, I grabbed it and brought it in and gave it to the officer working up at the state house kiosk area and it just flew off from there. We had to report it to the airport, which is just a few miles away from the state house, and the FAA got involved. So they're currently investigating exactly what this piece is.

BERMAN: Go buy a lottery ticket, Craig.

KEILAR: For sure.

BERMAN: You've got -- you've got great luck.

DONAHUE: You say that, and everybody is, like, go buy a lottery ticket. Go buy a - and it's like, I don't know if I've already used my luck up because if it was 10 seconds later, I think I would have been hit in the head with that thing. So, there was my luck.

KEILAR: Oh.

BERMAN: You got it.

Craig, listen, space junk never falls in the same place twice, so you're safe from here on out.

DONAHUE: Yes.

BERMAN: Great to speak to you this morning. Best of luck to you. Be safe. Bring an umbrella. That's all I can say.

DONAHUE: Yes. Well, they got me a nice hard hat now to wear when I go outside. So, we're good.

BERMAN: Like that.

KEILAR: Oh, Craig, so glad you're on the good list.

DONAHUE: Yes, so far.

BERMAN: A long awaited apology, nearly 50 years after an iconic appearance at the Oscars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:59:16]

KEILAR: Time now for "5 Things to Know for Your New Day."

This afternoon, President Biden signs a sweeping climate and healthcare bill into law. A $750 billion bill investing in energy and climate projects that limits prescription drug prices and taxes large corporations. BERMAN: Author Salman Rushdie is said to be articulate in his

conversation with investigators. He remains in the hospital with severe injuries after a stabbing attack in western New York.

KEILAR: A former L.A. County Fire captain walked off the witness stand three times under questioning about taking photos of Kobe Bryant and his daughter's remains after they died in a 2020 helicopter crash.

BERMAN: Millions of MamaRoo baby swings and RockaRoo rockers have been recalled after reports of infants getting entangled in the straps. The company says to contact them immediately to register for a free strap fastener.

[09:00:02]

KEILAR: And the academy apologizing to Sacheen Littlefeather for abuse she endured at the 1973 Oscars. She was heckled while on stage on behalf of Marlon Brando to protest Native American mistreatment in the film industry.

BERMAN: These are the "5 Things to Know for Your New Day." More on these stories all day on CNN and cnn.com. And don't forget to download the "5 Things" podcast every morning.

CNN's coverage continues right now.