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Wyoming Republican Representative Liz Cheney Loses Primary to Trump-Backed Challenger; Liz Cheney States She is Considering Presidential Run in 2024; Soon: Giuliani to Appear Before Georgia Grand Jury as "Target"; Abbas Calls Israeli Acts Toward Palestinians "Holocausts". Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 17, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R-WY): That was a path I could not and would not take.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So if she is going to continue this fight, the question is how, where, and in what office does she plan to do it? She was asked about this on NBC just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you thinking about running for president?

REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R-WY): That's a decision that I'm going to make in the coming months. I'm not going to make any announcements here this morning, but it is something that I'm thinking about, and I'll make a decision in the coming months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: In Alaska, incumbent Republican senator Lisa Murkowski, who voted to convict Trump during his second impeachment trial, advanced to the general election along with Trump- backed candidate Kelly Tshibaka and Democrat Patricia Chesbro. And in a special House election in which Alaska used rank choice voting for the first time, we are awaiting to see the fate of former Alaska governor and former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

But the story this morning is in Wyoming, and that's where CNN's Jeff Zeleny is joining us now with the latest. Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Brianna, good morning. We are getting more details of what the next steps for Congresswoman Liz Cheney will be. Overnight, her campaign team filed paperwork with the Federal Election Committee changing her campaign to a leadership PAC that allows her to donate to other candidates. It allows her to travel around the country, sending a message. But the name of the leadership PAC, so interesting, called The Great Task. And she used those three words last night here in Wyoming.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R-WY): The great and original champion of our party, Abraham Lincoln, was defeated in elections for the Senate and the House before he won the most important election of all. Lincoln ultimately prevailed, he saved our union, and he defined our obligation as Americans for all of history, speaking at Gettysburg of the great task remaining before us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So now that is the name of the new leadership group, The Great Task. It was a speech infused with sweeping history, really using the Civil War as a metaphor for what she believes the challenges and crises this country faces right now.

While the outcome of the election may have been somewhat anticlimactic, that did not make it any less important in terms of the conversation and the next chapter of what she plans to do against the former president. But the questions now are, what is the market for that in the Republican Party? It seems quite limited at this point. She called on Democrats, independents, and other Republicans to join with her in this great task. But the question is what exactly that will take. But her aides are telling me this morning that she is going to be thinking about this for several months, making no decision. Of course, she remains in Congress in her Congressional seat until early January.

BERMAN: Jeff, you talk about Democrats. What about this notion that some people had that maybe enough Democrats would cross over to support Liz Cheney?

ZELENY: Well, John, it is clear that many Democrats and independents changed parties to vote for her, and it will be fascinating to get a sense of that from the secretary of state's office here to see how many actually did. It was at least some 20,000 or so.

But the reality is that simply was not enough. But if that hadn't happened, the landslide would have been more overwhelming, even so, more than 30 points. So yes, many Democrats, I can tell you, we talked to so many here that did over the last several days, so thousands did.

But the Cheney campaign believes that, look this is Wyoming, that that is a sign that there is a broader appeal for this type of a message. But again, in the Republican Party, it seems quite limited. But now at least she is turning her attention back to the January 6th Committee, those hearings pick up next month. John and Brianna?

BERMAN: Jeff Zeleny in Jackson. Great to see you, Jeff.

KEILAR: And joining us now to discuss, CNN chief national correspondent and the anchor of INSIDE POLITICS John King.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

KEILAR: Good morning. It's so great to have you on this day.

Can you just put into context this moment in history where you go from Liz Cheney two years ago winning by more than -- she wins with more than 70 percent of the vote, and here she gets creamed with a spread of more than 30 percent even though she has Democrats going to her side.

KING: She stood up to Trump and Trump got 70 percent of the vote in conservative Wyoming, and this is the defining fight in the Republican Party right now. She knew it. She knew it. She explained last night, she had a choice, she had a choice. Join her leader, Kevin McCarthy in the House, join the leadership in telling a lie, repeating a lie, supporting a lie that somehow Donald Trump was cheated in 2020, or stand up for it.

So I'm more fascinated by the next chapter. This was -- Wyoming is Wyoming. To Jeff's point, yes, hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people independents and Democrats switched parties to stand with Liz Cheney, but there is just not enough. And it's not going to happen in Wyoming.

BERMAN: So the what's next is fascinating. And we just had some news a few minutes ago, Liz Cheney in an interview with Savannah Guthrie said she's not about to make an announcement, but in a way she did.

[08:05:06]

She said I'm considering. I'm deciding right now whether I'm going to run for president. And that is declaring something.

KING: It is. So the first contest for the Republican nomination is 17 or 18 months away. She would have to make a decision, obviously, months and months before that to organize. So everybody should think about that, everybody should watch that, that's the big flashing light.

I'm much more interested in the next three, four months. What she said last night in her speech, I urge all Americans not to vote for election deniers. So now she has this super PAC. She has tens of millions of dollars left over that she raised in the Wyoming race. Can they prove it? This is the test. You will learn about what you can do, can you move voters, can you beat Trump, can you beat election deniers, you'll know more about that terrain in 2024 if you try it and play hard in 2022.

So will they raise money? Will they run ads? And then can they go out and campaign? And can you convince enough Republicans in battleground states like Arizona, like Pennsylvania, elsewhere, to not support Republican candidates? Can you convince Republicans this is more important? And so can you switch the House there? No. I think the dynamics in the House seem pretty clear, although let's watch. But you could make an impact in some very key governor races and some very key Senate races, and it's a laboratory, if you will.

BERMAN: You think this is a test run to see how much of a spoiler she can be? KING: She does not waste words. So why did she say that last night? I

urge all Americans, meaning Republicans, really, and independents who are up in play in a midterm election year. Normally there's a Democrat in the White House, therefore his party gets punished in the midterm election year. But she was looking straight ahead and saying, this is a moment, this is a moment of choosing. The Republican moment of choosing about Trump will come in 2024. There is a lot of time between now and then. In our business, and in politics sometimes we're always trying to get -- we're trying to skip chapters. We're in the middle of a pretty fascinating drama. I think we should go one page at a time.

KEILAR: What would make her say, no, I'm not going to run against Trump if she felt, perhaps, she was going to just play the foil and help him?

KING: So there are serious conversations among Liz Cheney, Larry Hogan, people like that, about what does it take? What if a bunch of us ran as anti-Trump candidates? Do we need just one? What's going to happen?

The first question is, Mike Pence is going to be in New Hampshire this morning at the Politics and Eggs Breakfast. What does he say about this? Does it make him more defiant and do you more stand up to Trump? Or do you say, wow, look what just happened in Wyoming. Trump is the tail that wags the dog. I'm getting back in line and I'm going to mute myself?

So if you're watching, does Ron DeSantis, if Trump runs, does Ron DeSantis have the courage to run? How many others have the courage to run? And so then you're looking, there is the anti-Trumper. Donald Trump won because you had those 16 candidates at the beginning of the race. You had Rubio, you had Bush, you had Cruz, you had Rand Paul. And Trump won early on because he was getting 30 percent of the vote.

If there is a whole bunch of Trumpy candidates, Trump-like candidates, and one anti-Trumper runs, a strong anti-Trumper, you can get 25 percent, maybe you can get 30 percent. That's why I think the 22 test, how much can you get? Can you learn how much you can get as you head into 2024?

Plus, let's just be honest, we have no idea what Trump will look like in 16 or 17 or 18 months. Just in part because of all the investigations, in part because you do find for Republicans, who support what he says, who deny the election, which is just wrong, who just say, though, but can he win again? Can he win again? For all the mocking of Joe Biden they do, in a dark room, whether or not on camera, Republicans have to realize, Joe Biden beat Donald Trump, and he beat him pretty good.

BERMAN: That's the Mike Pence argument. That's the argument from Pence world that they'll whisper to you, which is, yes, Trump lost.

KING: Right. Look, I'm fascinated by it. This is what I do. So I can stay at the map all day long looking at 2024 states and which primaries could Liz Cheney do well in. Could she deny Trump this. I think the biggest challenge is just, that's exciting, that's interesting. But it's way too far down the road. Anyone who tells you they know what's going to happen here, ignore them. Because we don't know. We just live in the incredibly volatile times.

It's the same people who said we're not ready for a black president. There is no way Donald Trump could win the Republican nomination. OK, that was a fluke, but there is no way he can win the presidency. Joe Biden is done in 2020, there is no way he can win. Just remember, just remember all that, and just take it one day at a time.

KEILAR: When she said last night, she invoked Lincoln and the fact he lost House and Senate races before going on to be president, did you take that to mean she was likening herself to Lincoln? Or did you take that, maybe it's both, to mean she was saying to Republicans, look at the long game. Just because you lose the battle doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your eye on winning the war?

KING: I think both. Both. I think she was trying to say some fights are worth fighting, taking the risk, even if you may lose. Lincoln did not in the end, the union survived. But it was a risk. And the other thing is Republicans, please, please, please, this is a proud party, with a great legacy, and a great history. Can we have it back, please? Yes, we don't live in the age of Abraham Lincoln, but what happened to smaller government? Where happened to market solutions? Where are the market solutions?

[08:10:00]

For example, Joe Biden signed a huge policy achievement yesterday. You can like it or not like it at home depending on your politics. It's a huge policy achievement. It does big things in healthcare, for the first time makes these giant investments in climate. Republicans all voted no. Liz Cheney wants the Republicans to have a plan. Here is a market approach to the healthcare solutions. Here's a market approach to climate. That's what we need in the country, big policy debates about big challenges, and let them vote and we'll see what happens. Then you have elections.

We're gone. The Republican Party is not a policy driven party anymore, an ideological party anymore. It's a Trump party. And it's a grievance party. It's a party built on the idea that Joe Biden is not a legitimate president, which is not just factual. They have stood on that ground, quicksand, longer than many people thought they could, but eventually you sink in quicksand.

KEILAR: What happens to Liz Cheney if she is to enter and she decides, I may be one of many candidates or I'm going to take on Donald Trump, and then the discussion starts being around conservative issues, which she is very strong on. Democrats will like her, because of what she said about Trump, because of the position she has taken, but once she starts talking about where she is on the issues, that's when they start to realize she's in a very different place than they are.

KING: She's a very, very, very -- I could go on with a few more veries -- she's a very conservative Republican. She's more conservative than her dad, Dick Cheney, the former vice president of the United States, on many on these issues. But she says she wants to put country first. I think, look, when we get there, watch how her speeches, she talks about little girls in America. If you had a strong conservative Republican woman in that field, that could be interesting. You may have Kristi Noem, the governor of South Dakota may be in that race as well. Does she have, again, does she have the courage to run if Donald Trump is in there?

The Republicans who are preparing to run now all remember what happened. Think of all those Republican candidates lined up on the debate stages in 2016, and think about what the human chainsaw that is Donald Trump did to them. They all know that. So do you run against him and have that happen to you? Or do you back off if he runs? That's what Liz Cheney and anyone else needs to watch. How many people are running, therefore is there a lane for me?

She may run anyway. If she believes somebody needs to run to stand up to him, she may run saying I know I'm going to lose. There are things that need to be said. But we're a longways away from doing the math, is there a real lane. And we'll learn, we'll learn in the 2022 midterms. We will learn in the off-year elections next year as well. This is constantly changing. Every day, you come to work every day, you leave today, you think this -- you know what the story is going to be tomorrow. You come to work, and wow, look at all the things that happened overnight. So let's just go one day at a time.

BERMAN: I can't plan for the afternoon.

KING: It is fascinating on so many levels. In both parties actually what is happening. And so one day at a time I think. 2024 will get here soon enough.

KEILAR: And you'll get us there as well. John, thank you. It's great to have you here.

KING: Great to be here. Haven't been here in a long time.

KEILAR: And we will catch you on INSIDE POLITICS at noon, of course.

So any time now, Rudy Giuliani is set to appear before a special purpose grand jury in Georgia as a target of their election interference investigation. We have a live report from the courthouse.

And, quote, everyone is saying no. Brand-new reporting on former President Trump's struggle to build a top-notch legal team.

BERMAN: And commercial air travel could soon be going supersonic. The business deal that could get you to your destination twice as fast.

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[08:17:00]

KEILAR: Any moment now, Rudy Giuliani is expected to appear before the special purpose grand jury in Atlanta, which is investigating the Trump team's efforts to flip the 2020 election results in Georgia.

Giuliani was told he is a target of that investigation.

CNN's Nick Valencia is live for us outside of the Fulton County courthouse with more on what we should expect here -- Nick.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, good morning, Brianna.

Rudy Giuliani after some legal wrangling and much anticipation is expected to appear before the special purpose grand jury here in Fulton County. And, remember, he was supposed to appear here last week before his team filed a late motion for a continuance listing health concerns as the reason he couldn't travel by air. Ultimately, though, a Fulton County judge ruled he must appear today and he will.

He's going to be talking about his three appearances before state legislators here in the wake of the 2020 election. District Attorney Fani Willis who is leading this investigation wants to know more about what he said to those lawmakers as he spread conspiracy theories and baseless claims of election fraud.

This is a significant development in this investigation. Giuliani is the first person, part of Trump's inner circle, to be named as a target of a criminal investigation here, this investigation is a criminal investigation. He's also the biggest name to testify here.

Giuliani has called this criminal probe, said he has no faith in it, saying it is politicized and there is already some efforts to get District Attorney Willis, who is a Democrat, disqualified from investigating some of those that she has targeted.

Overnight, 11 of the 16 fake electors asked a judge to disqualify her from investigating them. Remember, it was those electors, those fake electors that participated in a scheme to subvert the Electoral College and try to illegitimately certify Donald Trump as the winner of the 2020 election in the state of Georgia when he was not. Willis has already been disqualified from investigating one of those fake electors, State Senator Burt Jones because she held a fund-raiser for his political opponent.

All of those 16 fake electors, just like Giuliani, had been named targets of this investigation, which as we have seen has been wide ranging, wide reaching, and broad in scope. Giuliani is expected to appear sometime later this morning without an attorney and behind closed doors -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Nick, thank you for that live for us from Atlanta.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New reporting from "The Washington Post" that former President Trump is struggling to assemble a team of veteran lawyers to defend him against the Justice Department investigation into the handling of confidential documents at Mar-a- Lago.

Joining us, national political reporter at "The Washington Post" Isaac Arnsdorf, who is part of the team who broke the story.

Isaac, great to see you. What are you reporting this morning in terms of the search for

lawyers?

ISAAC ARNSDORF, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: So there is definitely a recognition among some of Trump's advisers that they need some more legal firepower here, that this is a very serious and complicated case, has a lot of legal issues, up against the Department of Justice with all its resources, and they need some heavy hitters. They need some people who have experience working and winning cases at this level.

And that's -- the problem is they have actually been going around trying to add those people to the team, and they have been hearing a lot of nos.

BERMAN: So they do have two lawyers with experience. They have Evan Corcoran, right, who is Bannon's lawyer and Jim Trusty, who's also someone who's got federal experience here.

Why do they need more? And why are people saying no?

ARNSDORF: Yeah, they also have John rally who has been handling some of the interactions with the Justice Department and he also has some experience. But then, you know, looking at the rest of the team you've got a former OAN host, you've got a property insurance lawyer who joined the bar in 2014, and you've got someone who leads a three- person firm and used to be the general counsel for a parking garage company.

And so, one issue is the level of experience and also the leadership. You know, who is in charge here? Who is going to run this? And, you know, ordinarily representing the former president in a high profile case like this would be the opportunity of a lifetime, that all sorts of famous lawyers would be clamoring for.

But, you know, the issue here, and we have seen this before, like if you think back to the Mueller investigation, when Trump had a similar struggle to get really serious, seasoned, well-respected lawyers on his team, you know, he doesn't always take advice, he doesn't always pay the bill, and he's very controversial.

A lot of firms and a lot of lawyers don't want the headaches that would go along with representing him. You know, we heard from one lawyer, a story about how, you know, they went to the oval office for something and told him not to tweet and by the time they got to the White House driveway and checked their phones, there was a tweet.

BERMAN: Isaac Arnsdorf, thank you for being with us and sharing your reporting.

ARNSDORF: Thank you.

BERMAN: Outrage this morning over comments by Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas about the Holocaust, while standing next to the leader of Germany.

Plus, a conservative warns that a new era of political violence in the United States is already here. He's going to join us next to explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:26:26]

KEILAR: Anger this morning after Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas compared the Israeli treatment of Palestinians to the Holocaust and made the comments in Germany right in front of the chancellor.

CNN's Hadas Gold is live for us in Jerusalem with more on the reaction here -- Hadas.

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, this is far from the first time that Mahmoud Abbas has made or written comments about the Holocaust that have been controversial and drawn condemnation. In the past, he said certain things like Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves.

But this was potentially a new one, I think, because he made these comments about the Holocaust in Germany as you said, right next to the German chancellor. He was appearing at a press conference in Berlin with the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. When he was asked about whether he would apologize to Israel and Germany for the 50th anniversary of 1972 Munich Olympic attacks where 11 Israeli athletes and a West German police officer died.

And instead of answering that directly, he said if you want to go over the past, go ahead and then made the comparison to the Holocaust. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRESIDENT (through translator): From 1947 to the present day, Israel has committed 50 massacres in Palestinian villages and cities - in Deir Yassin, Tantura, Kafr Qasim and many others -- 50 massacres, 50 Holocausts. And until today, and every day, there are casualties killed by the Israeli military. Our request to say enough, come towards peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLD: Now there are reports that Olaf Scholz, and German chancellor, grimaced in response to that comparison but made no response to the state. He's been criticized for that. But he did issue a tweet a few hours later. I'll read it to you.

He said: I am disgusted by the outrageous remarks made by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. For us, Germans in particular, any relativization of the singularity of the Holocaust is intolerable and unacceptable.

Of course, these remarks are garnering widespread and harsh condemnations here in Israel. Israeli prime minister issuing a tweet saying that it was a moral disgrace and a monstrous lie, 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, including 1.5 million Jewish children, history will never forgive him, speaking of Abbas. Now, Mahmoud Abbas' office issued a clarification in an updated

statement this morning. He said in part, he reaffirms the Holocaust is the most heinous crime that has occurred in modern human history and said that what he meant was that he was trying to speak and remind people, he says, of the massacres committed against the Palestinian people, he says, by Israeli forces, crimes he says that have not stopped to this day -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Hadas Gold live for us in Jerusalem, thank you for that report.

BERMAN: So new warning this morning about the rising political temperature in the United States. One journalist writes, quote, we should no longer wonder if we can avert a new era of political violence in the United States. It is already here.

Joining us now is contributing writer for "The Atlantic", Tom Nichols.

Tom, thanks so much for being with us.

What struck me about your piece, which is a wonderful read isn't just that you say the political violence is already here, but you say it is coming from people who believe in nothing. What do you mean by that?

TOM NICHOLS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Yeah. Unfortunately it's not the kind of organized political violence that we think of when we think of a civil war with military units being formed around flags, and a cause that, you know, whether it is states rights or slavery or, you know, the kind of confrontation of the 1860s.

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