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Ongoing Protests in Iran; David Schoen is Interviewed about the Trump Documents; Professor Fired over Complaints. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 06, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:33:12]

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ABIR AL-SAHIANI, SWEDISH MEMBER, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: Until the women of Iran are free, we are going to stand with you. (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE). Women, life, freedom!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: That was a Swedish politician, Abir al- Sahiani, cutting her hair in front of the European parliament in solidarity with the women in Iran.

The nationwide protests now against the regime, they are gaining momentum weeks after demonstrations first started taking place.

With us now is CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour.

We see these demonstrations. They appear to be growing. The ayatollah now forced to respond. International condemnation and unity in some ways.

Christiane, where do you see things maybe differently today than they were a week or two weeks ago?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, it is incredible that these demonstrations and protest continue apace despite what is being increasingly viewed by the international community and Human Rights Watch and other human rights organizations as the excessive use of force by Iranian authorities against these protesters, many of whom are women and children and certainly young people.

They have analyzed photos and videos that we keep playing showing the use of AK-47 Kalashnikovs, handguns. We know rubber bullets was used -- were used at the university the other day. And we understand that they've analyzed at least 47 individuals, mostly women and children, who have died because of this kind of lethal force.

So, that is what is now really getting people like the politician you saw of the EU very angry, calling on the EU foreign policy chief to actually condemn Iran and say that Iran will be held accountable. And, finally, Josep Borrell did that today, tweeting that the Iranian authorities will have to be investigated for this use of force.

[08:35:03]

But, beyond that, the protests and their longevity are really important. And they're really triggering a nerve all over the world. These are going viral, these pictures. So much support for the Iranian women and young people and the men who support them is gathering around the world because it's basically about freedom. It's not because of the economic situation, although that is definitely having an impact because Iranians are really chafing under the inability to even have a future. So, their freedoms are very, very important to them right now and they see this as potentially a moment to seize. At the time, as you mentioned, the supreme leaders is very unwell. And, yes, he came off, some people say, his death bed to condemn these and to promise a harsh countdown. But, you know, many have reported that he may - you know, may not be long for this world and that will create a whole nother political dynamic.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And, Christiane, these protests are spontaneous. This movement appears to have no leader. And I was struck by an interview you conducted with a scholar just this week who called this an act of political suicide that the Islamic Republic is committing against itself by targeting this new generation of young women. That really struck me.

AMANPOUR: Exactly, Bianna. It's really important because what they -- what she was saying, this scholar, an Iranian woman who fled from the last demonstrations, the so-called green revolution in 2009, and now is a teacher at UPenn (ph), she basically said this is the future of Iran. This is a gen-z demonstrated and protests.

And these are people who sort of kind of made their peace with the regime as long as they weren't overly constrained and constricted. But the current president is very hard line and made, as part of his campaign in the summer, the increasing oppression of women and their dress code and their right as part of his central campaign and enabled these morality police to go out and monitor them and crack down.

You know, this is not all the time, and that's why sometimes you see these uprisings. But you're right, this is very important. And, as she said, a potential act of national suicide.

At the same time, the Iranian regime is busing out hundreds of thousands, or at least tens of thousands of their supporters in counter demonstrations. And their narrative is that these are riots and not legitimate protests.

BERMAN: Christiane, the situation in North Korea seems to be escalating by the day. Tests, more tests. U.S. warships now in the region in support of South Korea.

The question, as it almost always is once this starts in this cycle, it's, how far will it go? AMANPOUR: Well, that's interesting because, as you say, all of that's happening and there are an unprecedented number of these ballistic missile tests and firings under Kim Jong-un's rule. I mean it's really - it's like 24 already this year, 22 of them today. One -- a couple went over Japan. I mean it's very provocative.

But an interesting quote that I saw with Jeffrey Lewis (ph), a nuclear expert to CNN said that it's potentially likely that this kind of testing, including nuclear testing, will go on while the North Korean regime tries to perfect its ability to - to have nuclear weapons that are deliverable. So, that's a little bit of a worry.

And in the United Nations Security Council, the U.S. ambassador has basically pointed the finger, without mentioning, two, quote, permanent security council members, i.e. Russia and China, as enabling North Korea.

BERMAN: Christiane Amanpour, thanks so much for being on this morning. Great to see you.

AMANPOUR: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, soon, five members of the Oath Keepers will return to a D.C. courtroom for their historic sedition trial. We'll have more coming up.

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[08:42:49]

BERMAN: A federal appeals court has decided to expedite the Justice Department's challenge to the legality of a special master overseeing the review of thousands of documents seized from Mar-a-Lago. It comes after Donald Trump drew the Supreme Court into the fray.

With me now is David Schoen. He was a lawyer for Trump during his second impeachment trial and he's now representing Steve Bannon in his border wall fraud trial.

Counselor, great to see you.

I want to talk about a subject that you and I have been discussing now for some time, which is the idea of mens rea, which in this case broadly means, what did Donald Trump know about the documents marked classified that were at Mar-a-Lago?

The story over the last few days, first in "The Washington Post," and then matched parts of it by CNN, is that Trump asked a lawyer, Alex Cannon, after the first group of boxes were returned to the archives, asked this attorney, Alex Cannon, to say, OK, that was everything, that was all the documents you asked for marked classified. And the reporting is that Alex Cannon said, I can't say that. This attorney said I can't say that because I don't know that to be true.

OK, what's the legal significance of that? DAVID SCHOEN, TRUMP'S DEFENSE LAWYER DURING 2ND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: Well, first of all, I have to back up one step. I personally wouldn't believe anything that Alex Cannon says. He's a guy who has proven himself in the past to say anything he's asked to say, in my experience at least.

But if it were true -

BERMAN: Can I say - if he's saying - if he - if he - if he's going to say anything he's asked to say, if he felt he could get away with it, if Donald Trump asked him just to say that was everything returned, would he say that?

SCHOEN: Well, first of all, I think the government has turned the crews to Alex Cannon and Justin Clark, quite frankly, now. So, again, I just don't think they have any credibility.

But your question still stands. I think it's a valid question, whoever said that.

Yes, I think that there would be some significance. As it's playing out now, you know, we have the representation later that - that all classified documents were returned. That apparently turns on whether the documents were declassified, whether there was the authority to declassify them and so on. So, it may be a semantic issue. But I think that, you know, obviously, the - the investigation is interested in both - both statements.

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BERMAN: It does raise questions, you're saying, I'm not saying it answers them, but it raises questions about what Donald Trump knew, and that maybe he did know that he was in possession of classified documents.

SCHOEN: The states as reported certainly raised that question. I think that's a fair thing for you to say, certainly. The question is, how that's going to play out. And again, if the - if the answer turns on that the documents were properly declassified, you know, that - that sort of determines the issue in some sense.

BERMAN: The Supreme Court. So, now the Trump team has taken a very specific part of this case to the Supreme Court. And that's what I want to ask you here. They've asked the Supreme Court to overturn the appeals court. But, in doing so, they say they're not asking for DOJ to stop investigating the documents marked classified. So, in essence, I'm asking, what does that matter then?

SCHOEN: Right. Well, as usual, you've gone right to the point. It is a very narrow request. The request is that the special master also be able to review those 100 documents.

But, quite frankly, I think that with the decision on Tuesday by the 11th circuit to expedite the merits of the appeal, it's even less likely that the Supreme Court would or should take this case. Remember, the standard for the Supreme Court to take it is irreparable harm. The - now what's happening in the 11th circuit is, on October 14th, the government is going to file their brief on the merits. By November 17th, the whole issue of whether there was the authority to appoint a special master is going to be before the court.

And, frankly, even though this other panel has decided about the classified documents, I think that that issue can still be raised before the new panel that's going to be assigned to hear the merits of the appeal.

And, quite frankly, I'm a little surprised by the procedural question anyway. They cite in their brief a rule from the 11th Circuit that says they can't get on bonk (ph) review, meaning to have the whole court review that panel decision that, you know, allowed the Justice Department to go forward and restricted Judge Dearie from considering those documents. But that rule says that any such motion would be treated as a motion for reconsideration by the panel. Remember, they had a pretty favorable panel. They had two of the five best judges they could get on the 11th Circuit.

BERMAN: David Schoen, I'm sorry we're sort on time today. I promise you we'll continue this conversation soon.

SCHOEN: Thanks very much.

BERMAN: So, a college professor says he was fired because students complained his class was to hard. The debate over who was to blame here.

GOLODRYGA: And, breaking overnight, dozens of people dead, including young children, after a gunman opens fire at a childcare center in Thailand. We're learning more that this hour.

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[08:51:56]

GOLODRYGA: A renowned NYU chemistry professor has been fired by the university because too many students say they did poorly in his class. According to "The New York Times," 82 out of the 350 students in his course signed a petition saying that their low scores demonstrated that his class was just too hard. Maitland Jones is one of the nation's top professors in his field and wrote an influential textbook on chemistry. Before his tenure at NYU, he taught for decades at Princeton University before retiring as a professor emeritus.

"The Times" reports that prior to Jones' termination, the director for undergraduate studies at NYU's chemistry department wrote to him in an email saying, quote, the plan would extend a gentle but firm hand to students and those who pay the tuition bills, an apparent reference to parents.

With us now to discuss, CNN columnist Jill Filipovic.

Jill, you know, John and I were just talking about this off camera as well. We each have our own opinions, but curious to get your thoughts on how the story was presented, how students come across in it and what role, if any, parents in what I just mentioned there, tuition, factored into his ultimate firing.

JILL FILIPOVIC, CNN COLUMNIST: Sure. So, I think it's very easy to read this story. It's kind of outrage bait. You know, kids these days, gen-z snowflakes, all the stereotypes, I think it's important to emphasize that the students here didn't actually ask for the professor to be fired. That was an administrative decision. And at least from the correspondence that "The New York Times" published, it does seem like the decision was made at least partly based on concerns about parents and parents who hold the purse springs.

You know, to me that really speaks to the degree to which college has become less of a public good and more of a business. And I'm not sure that that actually fulfills the purpose of educational institutions, that it serves students particularly well. And it certainly doesn't serve adjunct professors very well who are overwhelmingly in a pretty precarious employment situation.

BERMAN: Yes, there are two aspects to this story, and I really don't feel like I fully understand what went on there based on this story. But a couple things jumped out to me. Number one, the second midterm, apparently the class average was 30 percent on the midterm. And you have to ask yourself, if an average score on a test is 30 percent, you know, is it all the students or maybe do they need to be taught better? You know, I mean, there may be some teaching involved there if no one's getting above that score or not enough people are.

And the other thing, again, I wonder how this story would be received if the headline was 84-year-old untenured adjunct professor with the lowest evaluations, apparently according to the article, in the science department is fired, if it would be received differently than it's been.

FILIPOVIC: Yes, I think that's absolutely right. I think there are a couple of things going on here. The professor pointed to the -- his observation that student performance has pretty significantly declined in the past decade.

[08:55:05]

And then I believe the term he used was fell off a cliff after the Covid-19 pandemic sent so many students learning from home. So, I do think that is a real concern. And I do think universities, as well as high schools, and all educational institutions have a real obligation here to look at Covid learning losses and try to repair some of this damage.

On the other hand, it is the job of the professor to teach, not to have every single student pass the class. But if such large numbers of your students are doing poorly, I think it is a moment for self- reflection and to ask yourself, you know, am I teaching this class effectively? Are the students really the problem or am I a part of it?

You know, I also think it's worth emphasizing here that most adjunct professors are not in the position of Professor Jones, who came from a tenured position at Princeton, who is this kind of elite member of the adjunct staff. They're disproportionately female, disproportionately professors of color and are very -- treated as very disposable by universities. So, this is also very much a worker's rights issue and an employment issue.

GOLODRYGA: Jill Filipovic, thank you.

Look, no one's doubting whether or not he's an expert in his field. It's just, maybe his teaching style isn't right for students or university.

BERMAN: Or - I mean, or, maybe the students have too much power. I don't know. I just feel like I need to know more about this whole thing.

GOLODRYGA: An interesting story.

BERMAN: All right, just in, we're getting word from South Korea that North Korea has flown warplanes near the border. This comes as tensions rising.

New details ahead. Stay with us.

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