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New Day Saturday

Transport Min: AirAsia Didn't Have Permission to Fly; U.S. Sanctions North Korea Over Sony Hack; Two Large Pieces of Debris Found; Flu Activity Hitting Peak Levels

Aired January 03, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: New overnight: two large pieces of debris and an oil slick. What these reveals about how AirAsia Flight 8501 crashed. And new questions raised as to whether AirAsia even had permission to fly that route the day of the crash.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: And weather say mess. We've got heavy snowfall, thunderstorms, ice as well. More than 20 states are waking up to a fierce winter blast. It is bad now, but it is only going to get worse.

PAUL: And we need to reiterate this. The flu officially reaching epidemic levels, at least 15 kids killed by the virus, thousands of people I know are sick. We're going to talk more about it and give you the information you need to know.

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PAUL: And despite all of that, we wish you a good morning.

BLACKWELL: Yes. A great start to the day.

PAUL: I know.

We hope that you are feeling well today. So glad you're with us. I'm Christi Paul.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Just after 6:00 on the East Coast. And we're starting this hour with the startling information coming out this morning in the search for the wreckage of AirAsia Flight 8501 and all the souls who perished on board.

PAUL: Yes, Indonesia's transport ministry said AirAsia flight 8501 never requested permission to fly from the city of Surabaya in Indonesia to Singapore last Sunday and that is the route the doomed plane took when it went down in the Java Sea six days ago, with 162 people aboard.

BLACKWELL: So, we're hearing this as searchers are turning up more debris. Just hours ago, they found two big metal pieces in the Java Sea. There was an oil slick that was spotted first.

PAUL: Rough conditions is keeping divers from retrieving more bodies today. We know 30 victims have been recovered thus far. And six of them have been identified, but we're following the latest on AirAsia Flight 8501 with our team of experts.

So, we want to begin with CNN's Andrew Stevens in Surabaya, Indonesia.

Andrew, what you can tell us about these two new objects that were found in the Java Sea?

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christi, they're easily the biggest piece of debris so far picked up in the search for 8501. One was roughly 30 feet by about 15 or 16 feet, a rectangular shape. And the other one was about 20 feet long, about two feet or so wide.

Now, we don't know exactly what they are. They were picked up on metal detection devices but there have been no eyes on them. The reason for that, as you said, the weather down there remains very, very tough indeed.

We're talking about four-meter high waves. Some pilots reporting five-meter high waves. Strong winds and driving rain. They can't get -- divers can't even get the remotely operated vehicle into the water to confirm what is down there. What those pieces of debris are.

The hope is that they're going to provide a clue as to where the main part of the wreckage of 8501 is actually located. We still don't know. All we know is a few days ago, that Indonesian air force saw a shadow and we had no confirmation of anything else.

This is the key because they think the fuselage, the cabin, is mainly intact when it sank, when it crashed and sank. If that's the case, the black boxes will be there -- the voice, the data recorders. Also, there will be expected many, many bodies still trapped within that cabin. So, that is the grim assessment and that's a working assumption of the investigators.

But as I said, terrible conditions on the site, even though it's the most sophisticated vessels and assets out there, it's actually getting in to see eyes on what is actually down there. It's so frustrating.

PAUL: Oh, I'm sure.

I want to ask you, though, about these new questions this morning, as to why Flight 8501 was flying the route specifically on a Sunday, because as we understand it, according to "The Wall Street Journal," they were not permitted to do so, to fly this route on this Sunday.

What do you know about the investigation?

STEVENS: Well, the Ministry of Transportation in Indonesia has clearly said they weren't allowed to fly on Sunday. It was clear that AirAsia did have a license to operate, fly between Surabaya here in Indonesia and Singapore, but that license was only four days a week, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday -- not Sunday.

So, they were not flying with the correct. This is actually from the Indonesian ministry of transport. Let me just read this to you, I paraphrase it a bit. But basically, it says, "The flight of Indonesia AirAsia route Surabaya-Singapore was operated outside of the permitted license. This is a violation against the agreement in the route provided."

Now, as a result of this violation, they have suspended -- the Indonesians have suspended AirAsia from flying that route, that Surabaya to Singapore route. And they have announced an investigation. The investigation is going to be to looking at the operations of AirAsia Indonesia. That's a subsidiary owned by the AirAsia group. So, they're going to be looking at AirAsia Indonesia. They're going to be looking at Surabaya airport, the operators there. How could this plane being allowed to fly if they didn't have the right permits?

And they're going to be looking inside the office of the director general of transportation. That's actually inside the ministry of transportation itself, to find out what they knew and why this plane was allowed to fly.

Now, the only thing we've heard from AirAsia Indonesia so far is from local TV reports. They're quoting the boss by the name of Sunu (ph), it's common to have one name. And he has said that AirAsia Indonesia will be fully complying with this investigation, and won't say anything until the investigation is complete.

But, certainly, a damning piece of information coming out as to why exactly this plane was flying when it shouldn't have been. Suspected there are going to be implications here, legal implications, and also insurance implications, as well. If it's flying illegally, was it insured? I'm no legal expert, but certainly these are sort of questions no doubt to be raised -- Christi.

PAUL: No doubt about it. All right. Andrew Stevens, we appreciate it so much. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: So, we've got a lot to talk about. We've got this investigation, these two pieces found that have been. And, of course, the weather.

You know, some waves are 13 feet high. You got monsoon conditions. The weather, of course, continues to be a major problem for AirAsia, the search for the 8501.

We've got with us now, meteorologist Karen Maginnis, captain and CNN aviation analyst Les Abend, and retired Navy Captain Raymond Chip McCord, who has been involved in more than 50 ocean salvage operations.

Karen, I want to start with you. I want you to set the stage for us, and give us an idea of the weather that the search crews are dealing with and when things might clear up.

KAREN MAGINNIS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: From the very beginning, we know this is monsoon season across this region of the world. They're in the ITCZ, the intertropical convergence zone. So, you get these huge squalls of rain. It is the rainy season. And they have seen some phenomenal rainfall,

even by their own standards.

But as we look over the next 24 to 48 hours, we see a little bit of a window. It's a glimmer of hope for people who are searching for this missing plane. There are bits and pieces here and there. But the surface of the water has been very rough, between 13 and 18-foot wave heights. Also, the winds have been gusting up to around 15, 25 miles per hour.

Now, it looks like it's going to be a little improved. It may be a narrow window, but at least the wind seems to be dying down. Once you see some of this yellow disappear. That lets us know that those winds are going to be a little calmer, 10 to 15 miles per hour. That will be good news.

This happens on Sunday. It looks like that wet weather, Victor and Christi, for the most part could see, not completely rain-free. But we're looking at an improved weather situation for Sunday. Maybe a little going into Monday.

BLACKWELL: All right, Karen. We'll continue to watch the weather, of course. Thank you so much.

I want to go to Chip and talk about conditions here, because initially, right after this search, there was some relief that the search efforts would happen in shallower waters. Nothing like the South Indian Ocean as we watched with MH370. But the shallow water proves to have its own challenges.

Three weeks of battery life left on this black box. With these conditions, do you imagine that it will be a race against the clock, or do you think it won't take that long?

RAYMOND "CHIP" MCCORD, LECTURER, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECH: Well, the issue is, they need to be prepared to get in the water, put their equipment in the water, whenever the whether allows them to. So, they just have to stay on station and just be patient to get -- to take whatever the weather allows when the waves knock down. And then they have to be able to get in the water. And hopefully, they're going about this systematically with the sonar, trying to locate where all the debris is, and then they can put either divers or machines in the water, so that they can identify and then recover the victims and the flight recorders.

BLACKWELL: Les, let's talk about the two pieces that were discovered. One of them is 30 feet by 15 feet. The other one, just smaller than that. When you heard about those two pieces and the oil slick that was discovered just above them, was there anything that was brought in mind to you immediately, what can we learn from that?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, it's hard to say, victor, at this point in time, what those pieces are. I mean, they could be pieces of the wing, although I would be more inclined to say pieces of the fuselage. If there was an oil slick indeed near it, that could have been portions of the engine that still remains intact and leaked a little bit. It may not be oil, it could have been hydraulic fluid, too, that's in the fuselage.

Everything that's found helps forensically with the piece of the puzzle to find out why this airport ended up where it did.

BLACKWELL: Les, this other development element overnight. The investigation into why AirAsia Indonesia was flying on a Sunday. Is this a small technicality as some have characterized it? Or do you think it speaks to a larger issue?

ABEND: You know, this is peripheral to the accident investigation. Is it a contributing cause? I very much doubt it. I mean, the bottom line is this airplane flew in those particular conditions. Air traffic control dealt with the aircraft appropriately, at least as far as I know.

The bottom line, it is what it is. This airplane flew. Whether or not it flew on a permit doesn't change the situation.

BLACKWELL: Chip, we know that there will likely be divers standing by when the waters allow for them to get in and search for the parts of the plane and the victims and the black box. What conditions are required? Do you need completely flat calm waters? Or can these divers have a bit of a challenge? Nothing like we're seeing now, but some movement?

MCCORD: No, they can tolerate some. It depends on the height of the waves and the length of the waves, if you will, how steep they are.

The most important thing is, if they are going to be diving, that they know exactly where they're diving. In other words, they have to have a really good map of the records in the water before they start jumping in the water, if you will. And once they start going to the water, they need to be diving off flat forms that are fixed. Not just floating around the ocean. But rather, with several anchors out so that they can make sure that they maintain their position with respect to the plotted debris on the bottom.

BLACKWELL: And hopefully, that comes soon. And as soon as those conditions permit they can get in and continue to search below the surface -- Chip McCord and Les Abend, thank you both.

We'll have more throughout the morning.

PAUL: So, the U.S. is slamming North Korea with sanctions over the Sony hack case.

BLACKWELL: Plus, a little girl miraculously survives a plane crash in Kentucky, the only survivor.

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BLACKWELL: Quarter after the hour now.

President Obama is turning up the heat on North Korea. He signed an executive order slamming the country with a new set of economic sanctions. That's in response to its alleged role in hacking Sony over the movie "The Interview", that satire about North Korea's leader.

PAUL: The president wrote, quote, "The order is not targeted at the people of North Korea but rather is aimed at the government of North Korea and its activities that threaten the United States and others."

CNN's Will Ripley is joining us now from Beijing live.

Will, thanks so much for being with us.

Who do these sanctions target specifically?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Three different government entities and ten individuals associated with those entities. So, you're looking at North Korea's intelligence organization, their primary arms dealer and their defenses of resource development entities.

But then, you have publicly named ten individuals, some of whom are working out of North Korea, operating under the radar. Many of them under the arms export business, which is a big way that North Korea makes it money in places like Africa, Iran, Russia and Syria.

So, by publically naming these people and also sanctioning the entities that they're tied to, you could really have a pretty serious impact on the DPRK, which is exactly what the administration is hoping for here.

BLACKWELL: So, the Obama administration said there will likely be some element of its response to North Korea, that the American public would not know about, some covert operation. Is there an indication that the U.S. was involved in bringing down North Korea's Internet connectivity recently?

RIPLEY: It's resting that you mentioned that, because what the White House also said was that these sanctions were their first phase, their first step that they're taking against North Korea, which would imply that the U.S. is denying any involvement on that cyberattack. However, it also doesn't rule out any future cyber attacks.

But keep in mind, North Korea unlike most of the world is really not that connected via the Internet or other agencies which is why sanctions don't have a tremendous effect on the country, because it's already so isolated. And a cyber attack would also have a very little effect because so little of North Korea is actually connected to the Internet.

PAUL: So, any indication on how North Korea will react to these sanctions?

RIPLEY: We're still waiting for an official response, Christi, from the North Korean government. I reached out just within the last few hours to my source in Pyongyang. I also monitored state media.

So far, they're keeping quiet with it. But if we know North Korea, if we can judge their past behavior, there will likely be some sort of fiery rhetoric accusing the United States of unfairly blaming North Korea for something they have repeatedly denied. And there is skepticism at home from private cyber intelligence

experts who say that they're not entirely convinced that North Korea was behind this. But the U.S. government strongly believes, based on their evidence, that North Korea did launch this cyberattack. So, despite of what Pyongyang says, the U.S. is clearly moving forward with actions this country.

PAUL: All right. Will Ripley, good to see you this morning, sir. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: We got a busy day here. And let's to your "Morning Read" now.

PAUL: Yes, according to a 911 report, the police chief of a community near Atlanta says he accidentally shot his wife while sleeping with a gun in the bed. William McCollom's wife is in critical condition in the hospital right now. He's not been charged but he's on administrative leave while that shooting is being investigated.

BLACKWELL: A man accused by U.S. authorities of being an al Qaeda operative has died. Abu Anas al-Libi was captured in Libya in 2013 and brought to the U.S. He was accused of being involved in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

Now, he pleaded not guilty and was awaiting trial. His family says he suffered some health problems.

PAUL: In weather, winter storms may delay dangerous travel plans this weekend. Oh, what a mess it is in some places. Snow falling in Lubbock, Texas, earlier this morning. That's what you're looking at here. As much as a half foot can accumulate in parts of the western Texas. The Lone Star State is not alone, though -- 24 states facing winter weather warnings and advisories today.

Karen Maginnis is in the CNN weather center with the latest weather headlines.

I don't remember here, Hawaii had a blizzard warning?

MAGINNIS: They did.

PAUL: When did you hear that?

MAGINNIS: Who knew? Up around 11,000 feet. But take a look at what's happening in our forecast, the arctic air. As a matter of fact, this polar air is moving towards the south. Chicago Wednesday, high temperature, minus 3 degrees.

And we've got dangerous driving conditions from interstate 40 from Amarillo to Albuquerque, with an ice mix, very dangerous. Kansas City could see an icy mix for most of the morning.

And if you're traveling to Chicago, to Detroit, Pittsburgh, you're looking at what could be an icy mixture, some very strong gusty winds expected there. And they're saying from Pittsburgh to Irwin, we're looking -- in Pennsylvania, they're looking at numerous car accidents. And along the Gulf Coast, we could see some thunderstorms for this afternoon, a rainfall heavy. Temperatures right now in the teens and twenties, but the wind-chill factor in some cases makes it feel well below zero. But we'll keep you updated, as we plunge into arctic air.

Back to you guys.

PAUL: Well, that's time of year.

Karen Maginnis, thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: Consider this story. A deadly plane crash kills four in Kentucky. But a 7-year-old girl survives. We'll have details of her amazing story.

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PAUL: Twenty-two minutes past the hour right now. A small twin- engine plane crashed in Kentucky, killing four people. But what's so remarkable about this is a 7-year-old on that flight survives.

BLACKWELL: It's an unbelievable story.

Let's bring in CNN national reporter, Nick Valencia.

Nick, it's amazing that this girl survived and with nonlife- threatening injury. She got up and started to walk.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's just incredible. I mean, some people would call this a miracle clearly.

The small twin-engine plane took off from Florida on its way to Illinois, and some point midflight, the pilot reported some engine trouble. They lost contact. Now, the 7-year-old walked three quarters of a mile through rugged terrain.

Larry Wilkins was at home fortunately, 71 years old. He says his dogs had started barking at the door. He'd just finished watching local news, on his way to the computer to check Facebook. When he goes to the door and he opens it, and he says this is who was behind it.

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LARRY WILKINS, TOOK IN 7-YEAR-OLD PLANE CRASH SURVIVOR: I went to the door. There was a little girl, about 7 years old. Crying, not bad, her lips were quivering pretty good, she was pretty bloody. She had a bloody nose. And her arms and legs were scratched up real bad. And she told me that her mom and dad was dead.

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VALENCIA: It's incredible. Four people died in that plane crash. A 7-year-old girl luckily made it out alive. He said when she showed up at the door, guys. She was barefoot. She had one sock on, dressed for Florida weather.

He's surprised she made it through that terrain. I asked him, are you surprised? This is a very rural area, not many houses, not many people in their homes during winter. He said he was home, had the light on, and she probably saw the porch light on from the woods.

But he was more surprised that he didn't hear the crash itself. It took investigators about two hours to locate the wreckage. That's what surprised him the most. He said if it wasn't for his dogs barking at the door, he may have never heard her faint little knock.

BLACKWELL: A sense of direction to go in direction of homes. All of these things come together. No wonder people are calling this a miracle.

VALENCIA: Yes. And he said it was difficult for him to make out what she was saying. She was in shock. When the investigators showed up, when the EMTs showed up, they put a neck brace on her, she was complaining of a superficial injury on her left arm, and she wanted him to go with her to the hospital, but because, he's not a family member, he couldn't go along with her to the hospital.

We do understand, though, that she may have an older sister.

PAUL: OK.

VALENCIA: And that maybe where she is right now. We're not identifying her. Her name is out there. Her family name is out there. A 7-year-old girl, he's calling her the bravest little girl he's ever met.

PAUL: Just want to make sure, you know, she's in good hands, and now, she's with other family members because she's going to have a lot to reconcile.

VALENCIA: Just to think, the wherewithal, you just lose mom, you just lose dad. Your older sister as well, April cousin. Who knows how long she was in that plane --

PAUL: Right, right.

VALENCIA: -- all the way to the house. It's just remarkable.

PAUL: It is something else. Thank you for bringing us the story, Nick.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Nick.

PAUL: Appreciate it.

BLACKWELL: All right. Ahead, the grim task of identifying the victims of Flight 8501 and how more time under water as these crews continue to search. How that time under water could make the task more difficult?

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PAUL: All righty. Grab your coffee. We're ready to wake you up here at the bottom of the hour. Thirty minutes past the hour here. I'm Christi Paul.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Always good to be with you.

New this morning, Indonesia's government wants to why AirAsia Flight 8501 was flying on Sunday, the day it crashed into the Java Sea with 162 people aboard.

PAUL: Indonesia's transportation agency says the airline did not permission to fly that particular route from the city of Surabaya to Singapore on Sundays. And it is now launching an investigation.

BLACKWELL: Despite terrible weather conditions, searchers have spotted two large pieces of metal debris on asset floor. They're believed to be from the plane. But waves reaching 18 feet in some cases have been preventing divers from their grim job of retrieving more bodies.

PAUL: And hope, I mean, that's what so many of these families of Flight 8501 are clinging to right now. They're waiting to hear anything about the people that they love who were on that flight.

Now, as this search drags on, each day, as you can imagine, it feels like an eternity. We've got mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters who are lost at sea. So far, 30 victims have been recovered, 132 are still missing.

We want to bring in CNN's Paula Hancocks who is live at a hospital in coastal Indonesia. And that's where a lot of the victims are being brought.

Paula, good morning to you. What are you learning this morning?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning. As you say, there have been 30 bodies retrieved so far. But none of those bodies were retrieved today. So, an entire day where they were unable to find victims.

The main reason for that, of course, is the weather. As you say, these waves are not easy to work with. You've got dozens of divers who are sitting on ships at the crash scene, waiting. Just waiting and hoping for a break in the weather. So, it's really frustrating for the operation.

But the interesting point, of course, they did find two large metal objects. They were going to send a remote control vehicle down below to take some pictures so they can analyst them and find out what it is. It's not clear that they can do that because of the choppy sea.

We understand that the press conference going on right now with the search and rescue agency. We're hoping to have those answers for you very soon. But, of course, it's very frustrating for those families as well who want to know the (INAUDIBLE), who want to know what happened to their loved ones and why.

PAUL: So, 30 bodies have been recovered. Only six have been identified. And I know it's grim and I'm trying to be as sensitive as possible.

But with the nature of their deaths, is it -- are they finding it difficult to positively identify the remains?

HANCOCKS: Well, certainly, it's just the worst of occasions, really. And the conditions, the fact that these bodies are in salt water. And have been for some days, and day seven.

So, obviously, that is going to affect the bodies quite dramatically. We spoke to the executive director of the DVI, the group that's in charge of identifying the bodies, I asked him, how do you do it?

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ANTON CASTILANI, EXEC. DIRECTOR, DISASTER VICTIM IDENTIFICATION: The first identified their body was identified using (INAUDIBLE), using fingerprint. And then after, we have to find another method, let's saying, use (INAUDIBLE) dental records, DNA and some other things.

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HANCOCKS: Now, of course, there is a time limit as well on these operations. Bodies may be floating at the moment, but the fear is those that are loose and floating in the sea may start to sink within a few days and obviously, it will make it so much more difficult to find them.

Victor, Christi, back to you.

PAUL: Yes. And we hope they do for the sake of those families.

Thank you so much, Paula Hancocks. We appreciate it.

BLACKWELL: It's a gruesome reality. But as we just discussed, the remains of the passengers and crew, they may also hold clues as to what happened on 8501.

So, let's talk about it. Joining me now for more, Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. He also worked on the Casey Anthony defense team. And we've got Shawn Pruchnicki with us as well, an air safety expert and a flight accident investigator.

First to you, Lawrence, we all know this is an indelicate topic. So, taking into consideration the sensitivity of the day part, we're in mornings now. What could the conditions of these bodies tell us about what happened, Lawrence?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, I think one of the things, besides identifying each of the 162 people on board has to do with determining cause of death. And I think we need to know if these individuals were alive when that plane entered the water.

In other words, people could have experienced such a tremendous impact upon hitting the water that that would have killed them. And I think the issue for a pathologist is whether or not the seawater has entered not only the lungs, but also the stomach and intestines, et cetera. So, the issue as to whether -- you know, what -- how the plane was flying, the elevation, the speed and the impact zone, you know, the impact angle, those are things that we won't know until we get the black boxes.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: But the bodies can tell us a story. And, of course, you can eliminate the possibility of fire or explosion. But, really, we don't know if the plane hit the water in one piece. And then broke up upon impact. Or it broke up upon hitting the bottom of the sea. So, there's a lot of questions still.

BLACKWELL: Let me get into the black box you just brought up for a moment and go to Shawn.

Shawn, more than three weeks left on the battery there on that pinger on the black box. But with the divers not being able to go in, aircraft being called back and the sloshing there of the shallow water, do you think it's going to be a race against the clock? It's come down to the last couple of days or hours.

SHAWN PRUCHNICKI, AIR SAFETY EXPERT, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: You know, I actually don't think it's going to, and there's a couple reasons why.

One is, we do still have lots of time, the only reason we're holding is because of the extreme weather conditions. So, you know, give it a few days for that to clear out. That's going to facilitate that search effort.

But there's another important piece of this, this is different than MH370. I think we're going to be able to find a debris field, within a certain period of time, a reasonable period of time. I would be surprise if it goes more than a week. And once they find that, even if it takes several weeks even if the pingers have already expired, once they find that wreckage debris field, they're still going to be able to find the boxes. So, a little bit different situation, I still think they're going to be able to find the boxes within this week.

BLACKWELL: Shawn, is it typical to find several dozen victims, several dozen bodies and then go for a stretch and you find none, as we're seeing that -- none were found today during the search?

PRUCHNICKI: Yes, actually it is. The reason being, because of the currents and of course, the water is extremely rough due to the water that the bodies do in fact start to scatter, unfortunately.

But that doesn't mean that -- you know, we still haven't found the primary debris field yet. And yet, where that debris field is, looking, taking into account, the weather and drift conditions, I'm willing to bet they're probably going to find more. In other words, a more concentrated core of victims. So, I'm still hopeful they're going to find some more. But, you know, he's exactly right. That we only have probably several

more days before we start seeing some of those victims that are floating before they start descending through the water unfortunately. Very uncomfortable topic, but unfortunately, that's the reality of what we're looking at, at the moment.

BLACKWELL: An important part of the investigation.

Lawrence, Indonesian officials tell CNN, and I want to read it, let's put it up on the screen for folks. That according to local wisdom and culture, not all families accept autopsies. So, for the sake of the investigation, we agree and it is accepted by Interpol to perform autopsies on the pilot, co-pilot and some randomly selected passengers.

How would that impact what happened here? Is random selection going to lead investigators to a clear conclusion of what happened here?

KOBILINSKY: I think that really to do this the right way, each and every individual requires an autopsy. There may be some critical finding in a particular individual that will shed light on what happened here. You know, there are a number of possible scenarios where a piece of information found on one body could make the difference in determining what happened.

It does turn out that under water, decomposition is slowed down as compared to in the air. On the other hand, the water is relatively warm, so we are fighting time here. And the sooner the bodies come up, the easier it will be to identify them.

But, really, autopsies need to be done on all of these individuals. I don't think there will be any difficulty really in identifying each and every one of them. But, I think that, you know, legally, I would think that autopsies would be required despite cultural concerns.

BLACKWELL: All right.

PRUCHNICKI: Victor, if I can join in a second.

BLACKWELL: Yes, quickly, go ahead, Shawn.

PRUCHNICKI: Yes, it's important to understand why it's important to have an autopsy of the crew members. Something we really haven't talked about yet.

And very briefly, the reason why that is so important is, one we need to determine the time of death to those individuals. If something happened prior, if they were incapacitated prior to impact, but also who was flying the airplane.

We can tell from a forensic standpoint who had hands-on controls, where they were touching, what they were doing, helps to add additional information to other data we're going to get from other sources. It's very helpful to have that forensic profile.

BLACKWELL: And, of course, we're hearing so many great things about this pilot and this young co-pilot. But you also have to get back the toxicology reports to eliminate all of those possibilities as well.

Shawn Pruchnicki and Lawrence Kobilinsky, thank you both.

KOBILINSKY: Pleasure.

PRUCHNICKI: Thanks.

PAUL: We have to talk about the flu activity this year, because it is already hitting peak levels across the nation. And it is so dangerous. I mean, 15 kids have died already. We're talking to a doctor, so it doesn't happen more.

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PAUL: Thirty-year fixed mortgage rates inched up this week. Fifteen- year rates dropped a bit. Here's your look.

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PAUL: Forty-three minutes past the hour. So glad to have you with us.

Flu activity, it is unusually high for almost half the nation. Look at this, the CDC reporting high outbreaks in 22 states as well as Puerto Rico. Flu activity spreading fast and it's deadly.

Three-year-old Ashlee McCarthy (ph) of Iowa, one of 15 children, 15, who died as a result of this year's flu outbreak. She died less than 72 hours after she began showing flu symptoms.

The CDC already calling this year's outbreak an epidemic, very early into the flu season. Strains are spreading so quickly, doctors say they're actually overwhelmed.

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PATSY STINCHFIELD, DIRECTOR OF PREVENTION CONTROL, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF MINNESOTA: Flu cases we've been seeing with children are record breaking this year, unprecedented numbers, really high in the first three weeks of December, almost one an hour.

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PAUL: So, let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner at Vanderbilt University.

Dr. Schaffner, we're so glad that you're with us.

Why is this year's outbreak so bad, so fast?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, it's an early outbreak Christi, and it's close it's a viral outbreak, Christi, caused by the viral strain which we call H3N2, which causes more severe disease. And further, the dominant strain is actually different from what's actually in the vaccine. So, the vaccine only provided partial protection. It's kind of a double whammy, I'm afraid.

PAUL: Yes, I was going to say. They said that it's only say covering -- the vaccines didn't cover more than half of the strains tested. At this point, do you suggest that people should go get vaccinated?

SCHAFFNER: Well, I think they should and the reason is, that the vaccine protects against several strains. And there's more than one strain of flu out there, even though the dominant strain is a little bit off. The others are right on target.

And those others are active often as the flu season progresses.

PAUL: This is what I think is really frightening. There was a boy in Tennessee, a 6-year-old, who went to the hospital. I think he had gone to the doctor. He was sick. He went to the hospital because he seemed to get sicker. He died in the waiting room waiting to be seen by somebody of the flu.

As a parent, how do we know that our child is in a severe enough state that they need to be treated immediately?

SCHAFFNER: Well, Christi, look at difficulty breathing. Are their lips blue? Have they suddenly taken a turn for the worse? All of those things should make you seek medical care just as quickly as possible.

But call your health care provider even if your child is moderately ill. Your provider might provide an antiviral medication that would shorten the duration of the flu and make complications less apt to happen.

PAUL: Yes, I mean, the flu is a virus, yes? So it can't be treated really, the symptoms, yes?

SCHAFFNER: Actually, the flu is indeed a virus. But we have antiviral drugs that work against the virus.

So, particularly for people who have underlying illnesses, asthma, heart disease, diabetes, if you're old or if you have young children, very young children. Those are the ones who are most likely to get the complications. Pregnant women also.

Those people -- if you get sick, we have flu out there. Call your health care provider. You may get an antiviral that will reduce the severity of the illness.

PAUL: Well, this is something interesting as well that I don't think I've read about before, specifically in Tennessee, doctors are asking patients to stay home rather than coming in their offices. And they're conducting appointments over the phone to prevent the outbreak.

I mean, is that normal? Is that a normal factor?

SCHAFFNER: Actually, it's happening all over the country. Call in, when you have flu in the community, you're likely to have influenza. The doctor can make a good assessment over the phone.

You don't have to go out and then spread the infection to others, particularly in a doctor's office. Then the doctor can call in a prescription. Your family member can get it and you can start treatment promptly.

PAUL: But again, the difficulty in breathing is the first time that a child or someone who might have the flu is in a real dangerous state?

SCHAFFNER: Absolutely. And look at that child, if you think that child is really sick, call.

PAUL: Absolutely. Dr. Schaffner, we appreciate you being here. Thank you.

SCHAFFNER: Thank you. Stay healthy.

PAUL: You too. Thank you so much.

Victor?

BLACKWELL: All right. If you think that clean living can stave off most kinds of cancer, you probably should reconsider that -- at least if you find the studying of the Johns Hopkins medical study that finds roughly two-thirds of cancer in adults can be attributed to random gene mutation. That's just bad luck.

Researchers stressed some cancers are still strongly tied to the behaviors, like smoking and too much sun exposure, and they say early detection is still key to finding cancer.

Also, we're following the big global story, a lab technician in the Centers for Disease Control still being monitored for the symptoms of the deadly Ebola virus. You know how many people have been killed by Ebola. That number nearing 8,000 in the three West African nations that are dealing with this. Now, this worker may have been exposed during a lab mix-up there at the facility. Monitoring will continue through mid-January.

Again, those three west African nations nearly 8,000 deaths, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea. The world health organization said that more than 20,000 cases have been reported in those three countries -- Christi.

PAUL: And new this morning, new questions coming up about whether that AirAsia flight should have even been in the air last Sunday before it crashed.

We have more plane coverage coming up for you. Stay close.

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PAUL: I want to share breaking information we're just getting into CNN.

Indonesian search teams have now found four large objects believed to be parts of AirAsia Flight 8501. That's up from two just last hour, and one of these new ones is about 60 feet long we're told. It's impressive that they can find them when you talk about the strong winds and 18-foot waves that are challenging searchers as they comb the Java Sea especially at a time -- I find this on Twitter and Facebook, a lot of people are asking how can you, since we can track almost anything through GPS not be able to find a high tech plane, that they can vanish?

BLACKWELL: But there soon may be a solution to this. Here is CNN's Alison Kosik.

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ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Right now, when an airplane disappears, the story of what went wrong vanishes with the black box.

But what if we had those answers all along?

RICHARD HAYDEN, FMR. DIRECTOR, FLYHT: We would know where the aircraft has gone, where it is, and we would have information on what happened in the meantime.

KOSIK: Canadian company Flyht makes live-streaming data recorders that sends information in real time. It's part of a satellite-based system that monitors a plane's exact location, engine conditions, and more.

HAYDEN: System transmits every, say, every five to ten minutes on a normal flight.

KOSIK: If something goes wrong, like the plane deviating from its route, the system will start streaming live second-by-second data.

SCHIAVO: That kind of information is not only life-saving, but it adds a tremendous measure of security for our country.

KOSIK: There are several mechanisms that transmit a plane's data, but Hayden says, unlike those systems, the technology behind Flyht is more extensive, sharing a tremendous amount of information. So much information critics say it could be difficult to monitor and analyze if widely adopted.

Right now, Flyht's technology is only fitted to a few hundred planes. It can be installed for about $100,000. Normal data transmission costs between a few dollars to $15 per flight hour, and goes up for continuous streaming in a rare emergency, a cost carriers might not be willing to pay.

SCHIAVO: They're very cost sensitive and they simply will not add additional safety measures unless mandated by the federal government.

KOSIK: But with more questions about another missing commercial jet, the high-tech black box may get a second look.

HAYDEN: The technology exists, it's in service, it's economical, and the question now is how to get more widespread use of it.

KOSIK: Alison Kosik, CNN.

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PAUL: All right. Alison, thank you.

So, we have 13-foot waves, these monsoon-like conditions causing some problems for the search teams in the Java Sea. You know, it did not stop them as we are just now learning to find four new large pieces of debris today. Are they getting closer to the core site here? We're going to continue to look at that.

Also, new developments today in the Tamir Rice case in Cleveland. That 14-year-old boy shot to death by a police officer. We'll let you know the developments.

Stay close.

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BLACKWELL: Here's some of the top stories making news.

John Hinckley will not face new charges in the death of former president Ronald Reagan's press secretary. James Brady's death last summer was ruled a homicide three decades after he was shot when Hinckley tried to assassinate President Reagan. Hinckley faced charges related to Brady's shooting during his 1982 trial but found not guilty by reason of insanity.

PAUL: Officials in Cleveland turned over investigation into the death of 12-year-old Tamir Rice to the local county sheriff's department. Rice was shot and killed by a Cleveland police officer. The mayor says the case is being transferred to assure transparency and accountability.

BLACKWELL: Actress Donna Douglas has died at the age of 81. She was probably best known for her role as Elly May Clampett, the daughter on the long-running sitcom, the "Beverly Hillbillies". The family reports she had been suffering from pancreatic cancer and died at her home in Louisiana surrounded by friends and family.

PAUL: And stay there, we've got a busy morning for you. Lots to talk about.

BLACKWELL: The next hour of your NEW DAY starts now.