Return to Transcripts main page
New Day Sunday
Experts Say It's Too Soon As Governors Consider Loosening Lockdown; Harvard Researches: Testing for Coronavirus Must Increase By More Than Three Times for U.S. to Reopen; Trump Lashes Out at Governors Over Testing Shortfalls. Aired 7-8a ET
Aired April 19, 2020 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:00:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president taking aim at governors suggesting at one point they simply don't want to use the testing capacity they have.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have tremendous capacity. The Democrat governors know that, they're the ones that are complaining.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president is taking advantage of these briefings to replace really what would be his rallies. It needs to be apolitical and by people who are really just focused on the science and medicine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are getting furloughed, losing their jobs, they need to get access to food.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're lining up in many cases for miles for donations at food banks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: None of us is working and we have kids, and they don't know that we don't have money to support them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good to be with you on this Sunday morning. I'm Victor Blackwell.
CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Christi Paul. Thanks for keeping us company here.
BLACKWELL: So, governors across America are feeling pressure to loosen the social distancing rules. There are more anti-lockdown protests seemingly supported by the president. They're popping up across the country. Right now, more than 97 percent of Americans are under some type of a stay-at-home order.
PAUL: The thing is, we're hearing from medical experts who say this is too much too soon when it comes to reopening. Researchers at Harvard say the U.S. is going to have to triple testing to half a million a day if the economy's going to reopen successfully.
BLACKWELL: So, yesterday, the president called out state leaders for not making what he calls full use of coronavirus testing capacity, although Democratic and some Republican governors say there just are not enough supplies to get the job done. They say that the president, rather, also says he thinks some governors have gotten, in his words, carried away, with social distancing.
PAUL: Our reporters are standing by with the very latest. We want to start with Kristen Holmes at the White House.
So, Kristen, help give us some clarity to the different -- the different narratives that we're hearing.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Christi and Victor.
Well, yes, two very different narratives. Of course, you have the president saying there's so much capacity, this is the governors' fault and the governors are saying we need help from the federal government. So, here's how state officials across the country have explained it to me, and we also heard New York Governor Andrew Cuomo saying the same thing yesterday. But essentially, they say, yes, there are labs, state public labs as well as private labs within their states that they know are not at capacity.
Now, Cuomo himself said he actually reached out to these labs and state officials tell me the same thing, which is essentially, yes, there's capacity, but these states actually cannot do these tests, because they do not have the supplies to do them. They need those chemicals, those reagents which are backlogged. They are in short supply and they also need swabs.
Now, President Trump said he's sending out the swabs out this week. Of course, we're going to hold the administration accountable, make sure those states are getting what they need. But you have to keep this in mind. It is not just Democratic governors, it's Democrats and Republicans. However, President Trump seems to be taking just issue with those Democrats. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They don't want to use all of the capacity that we've created. We have tremendous capacity. Dr. Birx will be explaining that. They know that. The governors know that. The Democrat governors know that. They're the ones that are complaining.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And we want to make clear, there is no evidence that any governors are deliberately not using their testing capacity. You have to remember, these states are the ones that are having huge issues with money. They want to get the economy reopened. They are just being careful, because they also don't want to see a surge. They believe that the right way to do that is to have rapid mass testing which yet none of them seem to have. BLACKWELL: They're also being careful, Kristen, based on the guidance
from the president. Thursday nights, he puts out this detailed plan. Friday morning, he tweets to liberate states that do not meet the gating criteria to start the plan and he called these protesters that we're seeing very responsible people although they're not following his guidance.
What is he saying about the protesters that -- I mean, we saw more on Saturday.
HOLMES: Well, it seems that he is supporting them. Now, I kind of want to give some background here, because I talked to multiple senior officials yesterday about this and they say President Trump is frustrated. That he put forward a conservative guide and he feels he should be getting better media coverage. He's annoyed that he's not, that he says that medical experts are telling him that things are going to be in a good position soon to reopen the economy, and we know that he is anxious to reopen the economy. That has been clear. He's trying to do it as early as May 1st.
Now, those medical experts, they have clearly stated that they believe that would be a stretch, particularly to open the whole economy. But now, you're seeing this message of protesting. You're seeing protesters heading to the capitol, really trying to force these governors to reopen the economy.
[07:05:04]
And the president siding with them.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: These protesters are protesting your social distancing guidelines?
TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, I notice a lot of protests out there, and I just think that some of the governors have gotten carried away.
You know, you have a lot of people that don't have to be told what they're doing. They've been really doing everything we've asked them. We have a few states where frankly I spoke to the governors and I could have gotten them to do, if I wanted to, to do what would have perhaps been politically correct, but they've been doing incredibly --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And one thing to note here is that many of these protesters seem to be Trump supporters. We saw MAGA hats as well as Trump flags. So, that might go to part of why he's being so supportive of these protesters.
BLACKWELL: Kristen Holmes for us there at the White House -- Kristen, thank you. This morning on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION", Jake Tapper will be
speaking with Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, New York Senator Chuck Schumer. They're going to talk about the battle to help small businesses. Also on the show, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan and Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer right here on CNN at 9:00 Eastern.
PAUL: And, again, just clarity so we're all in the know. Experts are saying the U.S. needs to be conducting half a million tests every day. And right now, we're only conducting about a fraction of that.
BLACKWELL: So, let's get to the hardest-hit state. CNN's Jason Carroll is in New York.
Jason, we know that to get these tests completed, the governors need the supplies to do that, and what are we hearing from Governor Cuomo about the effort to acquire them?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, the governor and state officials are troubled by what some of the numbers they're seeing here coming from the experts. Experts are saying that in order to get this country up and running, that the United States has to basically triple the amount of testing that it's doing. If you look at that research coming out of Harvard, researchers there basically are saying that in order to get the country open by mid-May, the number of daily testing needs to be at about 500,000 to 700,000, and right now, they say, we're at about 146,000.
And so, a lot of folks look at that and say, where's the problem here? What happened? Well, you look what happened at the CDC. You saw a contamination of the lab there and that caused a delay in testing. You got a shortage of tests that are out there.
New York's Governor Cuomo has basically been saying, look, in order to get the state back on track, it's going -- testing is going to be key. Numbers in terms of hospitalizations may be down. The number of intubation may be down. Social distancing is working.
But economically, in order to get this state back on track, testing is going to be key. And he's pointing at the federal government saying they need to do their part.
PAUL: So, Jason, the other -- the other thing here is that it seems there is a competition between states to get those supplies. What do we know about that availability and the fact they have to compete with each other?
CARROLL: Yes. Look, Governor Cuomo has said repeatedly that in terms of what he's doing, in terms what the state is doing, they are tapping into state resources. They are looking at the private sector, but he says when you look at the national landscape of this, Christi, basically that there are 30 manufacturers throughout the country that basically deal with the lab equipment for these tests. And you've got all of these states competing to try to get the same thing from these 30 manufacturers, manufacturers, which, by the way, are regulated by the federal government. This is why Cuomo says, look, this is not about a time for politics.
This is a time the federal government to do, and he talked a little bit about that last night with former President Bill Clinton during a global initiative event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: One of the things that really has bothered you is this competition among the states for vital equipment, which has bothered a lot of smaller states even more, because they feel like they're losing a bidding war.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: So it was like being on eBay internationally, competing against every other state and competing against the federal government to buy the equipment. And if you're a smaller state, New York could outbid you and California could out bid you and Illinois could out bid you.
We're going to have the same situation on testing. You watch. These private sector companies do testing. No one has the scale or the volume that we need. So, you're going to have another situation of 50 states all competing, trying to buy the testing. I've been saying today the federal government has to take over testing. And let them figure out how to bring it to scale.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: So while you've got all this back-and-forth going on between the states and the federal government, a reminder. You've got hundreds of people who are still dying every single day right here in the state of New York -- Victor, Christi.
PAUL: All right. Jason Carroll, so appreciate the report. Thank you.
BLACKWELL: As we see the numbers. We should revisit what we heard from Kristen Holmes, these growing protests across the country. More expected in the next few days.
And CNN's Natasha Chen reports on these protests, and what the opposing sides are saying to one another, often face-to-face.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Protesters stood shoulder to shoulder in many states over the last several days, to voice frustrations with stay-at-home orders and to demand an end to the economic shutdown brought on by coronavirus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Freedom and liberty, we're losing it!
CHEN: Ignoring social distancing measures that have been key in slowing the deadly pandemic spread, many gathered at the steps of state capitols directing anger toward governors whom President Trump criticized Saturday.
TRUMP: Some of the governors have gotten carried away. CHEN: But it's the Trump administration who told those very governors
to enact state-by-state efforts. When asked about people who choose not to listen to his own administration guidelines.
REPORTER: Would you urge those protesters to listen to local authorities?
TRUMP: I think they're listening. I think they listen to me. They seem to be protesters that like me, and respect this opinion.
CHEN: And they did, evidenced by the Trump 2020 flags and actions that seemed to follow what the president called for in this tweets, to, quote, liberate Michigan, Minnesota and Virginia.
GOV. JAY INSLEE (D), WASHINGTON: This is just grossly irresponsible, and it is dangerously bombastic, because it inspires people to do dangerous things.
CHEN: Those who dangerously flouted the rules to protest their governor's authority said it was out of frustration.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a small business owner and my business shut down forcibly on the 17th of March and I have yet to see any unemployment, any money come through from the government and I'm sitting here without a paycheck with no definitive answer on when I will be returning to work, and I don't think that's right.
CHEN: Desperation is high, but so is the risk.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D), NEW JERSEY: With all due respect, anybody who thinks we're doing this just to take away people's liberties and rights isn't looking at the data that we're looking at. We're doing what we're doing to try to save lives.
CHEN: Natasha Chen, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL: And thank you to Natasha Chen there.
BLACKWELL: Up next, these images from across the country. These groups of people who cannot afford to buy groceries, waiting in these long lines at food banks. We'll tell you how the states are now helping to make sure that families have enough to eat.
PAUL: And you may know what we're talking about here. The trouble of coping with tragedy when so much of the suffering is happening alone. We're talking to a man who lost his mother to COVID-19, about the challenges of healing in this environment, and what's happening now.
Stay close.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:17:41]
PAUL: Seventeen minutes past the hour right now.
This morning, Pope Francis celebrated his first mass outside the Vatican since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic. The mercy Sunday mass from a chapel about a half mile from Saint Peter's Square.
BLACKWELL: This is also Easter for Eastern Orthodox churches around the world. The celebrations started late last night in Moscow with nearly empty churches. There are more than 200 million members of the various orthodox churches.
Another 5.2 million workers filed for unemployment benefits last week. The total now, 22 million people since mid-march. And the sudden loss of jobs has also meant are turning to food banks to feed their families.
PAUL: Now, we're showing you some pictures here. Look at this, this is out of Hampton, Georgia, this week. hundreds of cars lining up at the Atlanta motor speedway just for a box of food.
CNN's Natasha Chen has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHEN: This bumper-to-bumper traffic wasn't caused by any car accident nor is it any rush hour commute. For many people in these cars, there is no more commute, because there's no longer a job. No longer a paycheck, and because of that, with increasing alarm, there is no more food.
VALERIE HAWTHORNE, NORTH TEXAS FOOD BANK: People are getting furloughed and losing their jobs, they need to get access to food.
CHEN: Across America, from coast to coast, in red states and blue, in big cities and small towns are scenes like these. People who can no longer afford to go to the grocery store, people who don't know where their next meal will come from and how they'll pay for it. They're lining up in many cases for miles for donations at food banks.
HAWTHORNE: We're seeing a lot of people never had to seek food before. So, we've very sensitive to that.
DALAI PATINO, OUT OF WORK MOTHER: This really help us out a lot because we don't have no income at all.
CHEN (on camera): No income?
PATINO: No. None of us is working and we have kids and they don't know that we don't have money to support them.
CHEN: At a time when a word unprecedented is used frequently to describe the pandemic's havoc. This is unsettling images do have a precedent and it's a sobering one. "The New York Times" editorial board called it the contemporary equivalent of the old black and white images of Americans standing in bread lines during the Great Depression. In some states, the demand has been so great, the National Guard has been called in to help food banks with coordination and distribution.
[07:20:05]
GOV. JOHN BEL EDWARDS (D), LOUISIANA: Thirteen hundred ninety-six Louisiana National Guardsmen who are working on COVID missions. They helped packaged 1.1 million pounds of food at food banks across the state.
CHEN: Meanwhile, some farmer across the country have been left with no choice but to dump crops that are typically sold to restaurants that are now closed. Some have tried to donate, like this Wisconsin creamery, leaving milk for people to take. But delivering mass quantities of fresh produce in a small window of time before it goes bad is a challenge.
The American Farm Bureau along with the nationwide network of food banks Feeding America have asked the U.S. Department of Agriculture to stream line a system that connects farms and food banks, but until that happens --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't have a buffer. There's no safety net for these folks. There's no savings.
CHEN: We're likely to see more food going unused and more lines of people that could certainly have used it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL: Natasha Chen there, Natasha, thank you so much.
I know we've heard a lot of stories about people who are really going the extra mile here to help slow the spread of this virus and there's a woman, Bibi Ramnauth who owns an upholstery in Georgia. Now, she has lupus, that's an autoimmune disease. It puts her at higher risk for coronavirus. When the CDC suggested people wear masks, she and her family got to work in a big way.
BLACKWELL: Yes. So far made almost 2,000 masks. They've donated hundreds to local hospitals, nursing and retirement homes. She says she's trying to do whatever she can. Everything she can, trying to keep herself and everyone in her community safe.
Great work. She was a mother, a dancer, a cook and a friend who prioritized looking out for other people. Well, she died alone without her family by her side, because of the coronavirus. What her son wants you to know about the virus. He is up with us next.
CCOMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:26:02]
PAUL: So, among the numbers on the right side of your scene, they're not just numbers. They're people who have died because of this pandemic, and this morning we want to remember one of them, Francesca Porco. Her family says she always looked out for others, loving, compassionate full of life. And listen to this. They say that they find comfort in picturing her
in the garden in heaven, picking tomatoes, pruning roses and getting ready to prepare a family dinner.
Francesca came to this country from Italy. She's a Catholic loved dancing, gardening, particularly cooking. She was 72-years-old when she passed away last Saturday, and she was laid to rest on Friday.
But as you can imagine, and as many may know, not everyone could attend the funeral. Some funerals, they're just not even happening right now. Many in the family had to join via FaceTime but her friends and the people who loved her made sure to gather outside the family's home for this last good-bye. Take a look.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
PAUL: That's the kind of moment they will remember forever. All the people that were there. Her son Dom Porco was one of them and he's with us now as well.
Dom, before we get into anything else, tell us about your mom. Just the sweetest, the most poignant things being said about her.
DOM PORCO, LOST HIS MOTHER TO COVID-19: Oh, my mom was just -- she loved, like, you know, cooking and hosting. One of her, you know, favorite things, if I brought a friend over, she had to make sure that everyone was fed and, you know, having a good time, and she looked out for others, and, you know, my mom was full of culture and life.
She loved the old traditions. She passed them on to me, and she was also, like, really awesome on the dance floor. I think -- with my father, you know, if my mom was there, a party, she just could, like, tear apart a tango or a waltz. It was incredible to watch her.
PAUL: And she looks, in these pictures you are showing, looks vibrant and healthy. This was an illness, COVID-19, it took over rapidly. Did it not? Talk to us about what happened?
PORCO: Yes. Actually, my mother had been, she had been diagnosed with a very mild bone marrow cancer. So she'd been treated in the hospital a few weeks before she caught this virus and I don't understand why the doctors encouraged going for a nuclear scan and chemo, but we really think that that's probably where she contracted it and then got it. After she came back that Wednesday from chemo, like, she started feeling tired, developed a fever and cough and within a matter of days, she just -- God, really bad.
She spent 30 hours in an E.R. at Hackensack University Medical in Bergen County, New Jersey. It was horrific. And one of the gifts I gave myself -- sorry, my mom, I taught her hour to use a video chat. She's calling from an E.R. room stuck with another woman. They didn't have a laboratory, using a bedside latrine type of thing.
And it was horrific. She spent 30 hours there and I just started bawling my eyes out. I couldn't believe it, and they finally moved her up to the ICU floor and had a nebulizer-type of mask, and I thought that was a ventilator, I wasn't even sure, like and she told me, like, you know, she said she had the virus. The doctor suspected it. They didn't really confirm.
[07:30:01]
I told her listen to them and just do what they tell you to do and they'll take care of you and I told her I loved her.
She said I have to sleep on my stomach and I had a minute and a half to say good-bye to my mom not thinking she would be on life support the following morning.
CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: Not realizing that that was good-bye.
PORCO: Yes.
PAUL: I know we're running out of time here, but there are people whose most personal experience with COVID is watching it on TV and I'm not making light of that either, because there are people who are so concerned about their jobs and their families in other ways.
But because of your personal experience with this, what do you think we collectively should know about, about this virus, and what it does, and what, how things are going to change for you now?
PORCO: It tears apart your family dynamic. You can't see your loved one. You're praying for, like, a glimpse into an ICU room. You can't see them and, like, I will -- not have peace. I thought my hands were tied and I couldn't help my mother and I also have a few other friends.
My landlord died. Diana Tenant (ph), she was 51 years of age and, like, literally in a couple of days, she was just gone. Look, a healthy 51-year-old. My friend's father, Aldo Bacerelli (ph), like another amazing figure in our community, gone, just like that, and he was in the same ICU ward as my mom.
And, you know, the amount -- the impact almost numbs you because it just becomes the norm. People -- it's not really the norm. These statistics are family members. These are our loved ones.
Like they want to open up the economy and they're saying, well, the numbers are low. I'm like, yeah, that was my mom, you know? It sucks. It really sucks. That's the only way I can put it.
PAUL: Dom, I'm so sorry for you and your family. I want to tell you how much we appreciate, though, you talking to us. I know that it's hard. I know there are going to be hard days ahead.
But you are not alone. There are a lot of people who are pulling for you, there for you, and we are in that camp. So, please, do take care of yourself and your family, and we wish you a lot of healing right now. Thank you so much.
PORCO: Thanks, thank you, Christi. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
PAUL: Of course. Bye-bye.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: You hear Dom's story, just those last 90 seconds, last minute and a half that he did not know would be the last time he'd see his mother.
The reality is for a lot of families that they have to keep the distance, that they don't get to say good-bye in person. That leaves a lot of people suffering alone, and loved ones who have to mourn alone. Doctors, nurses have to face the loss of a patient that they weren't able to save.
PAUL: So, it's our next guest's job to kind of help all of us navigate through those challenges. Her name is Kaytlin Butler. She's a chaplain at Mount Sinai Hospital. She's with us now from New York.
Kaytlin, what do you say to family members who cannot see the person they love as they're dying?
KAYTLIN BUTLER, CHAPLAIN, MOUNT SINAI HOSPITAL: Uh-hmm. You know, there's no life and no death that is the same, and so there's no one size fits all answer to that question. You know, I'm not in the business of platitudes or easy answers, and really my role is, in those moments, is to listen. You know, I want to hear the story of that life. I want to hear the story of that family.
I had the great privilege this morning of watching a couple videos of Dom's mom Francesca and her dancing at that wedding, and it's just -- it's such a privilege to be able to hear those stories, and to offer space for it and to join them in the grief, and this devastating loss. It is absolutely unfathomable.
BLACKWELL: You know, there are several groups here, people, you've got the loved one, the son, the daughter, who potentially is losing a parent, but you've got the person who's been diagnosed who is suffering with COVID. I read this "New Yorker" profile the subheading was, how do you comfort the suffering when you're not allowed in the room? So how do you?
BUTLER: Hmm. We meet them where they're at. I have held phones outside of hospital rooms. I have sat on the phone with people. I have held my hand on the door and I do the best I can and I pray that there's a higher power makes up the difference of what I can't do.
And I encourage families and I encouraged, gosh, I would encourage Dom and it sounds like his family's already done it so beautifully.
[07:35:02]
But it's to say good-bye together, in the ways that they can. You know, I -- Francesca seemed like somebody who was just so full of life, and -- and the way they said good bye, her by the house and the cheering, the so beautiful. The ways that we're trying to find, invent new ritual and new ways to grieve. I encourage family members to talk, to say out loud to their loved one everything that they would need to say. You know, my -- in the article it mentioned that my own mom died, and,
you know, she died alone. And I -- I can only imagine that I have asked myself some of the same questions that families are asking themselves right now, which is what was she thinking? What was she feeling? That it hurt? You know, the same questions you cycle over and over again for a lifetime and it's painful.
And at the end of the day, my prayer for Francesca and for all of these people that we're losing and the scale is unfathomable. I mean, I really -- even being in the hospital, I can't wrap my mind around the loss that we're facing.
It -- it is absolutely gutting. My prayer for them is same at my prayer for her. God, I pray she know she was loved. I pray Francesca felt so surrounded in some way or another by all the love that she put into this world.
BLACKWELL: I'm sure listening to that conversation, between Christi and Dom, I'm sure she knew she was loved.
Kaytlin Butler, thank you so much for the work you do and for your time this morning.
We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:41:42]
BLACKWELL: A Louisiana pastor, who has defied restrictions on holding gatherings of 10 or more, religious services, is now asking you to donate your stimulus check.
Pastor Tony Spell was hit with a summons for violating the state's order banning gatherings. Here's a clip from when the two of us spoke. This was two weeks ago just before Palm Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: But, Pastor, let me ask you if, if you believe the science and I assume you are pro-life. Is that correct?
TONY SPELL, LOUISIANA PASTOR: Correct. I am pro-life.
BLACKWELL: How is this a pro-life stance to put people in jeopardy of contracting a disease, getting a virus that has no treatment, no cure, often has no symptoms, and has killed more than 8,400 people, 8,500 people this morning in our country in five weeks?
SPELL: My response to that is people's hope is in the house of God. If they do contract the virus if they have fears of the virus, the church is more essential now than ever to pray with people, to let them know there is a balm in Gilead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: Back with me now, Pastor Tony Spell of Life Tabernacle Church.
Pastor, welcome back.
SPELL: Thank you, Victor, for having us on this morning.
BLACKWELL: Yes. I'm going to hold up on your challenge in a moment. First, that was Saturday, right before Palm Sunday. And since then your local attorney, who is one of more than 1,000 who attended the Palm Sunday service, he has now contracted coronavirus and is in the hospital. His wife did not attend, but she is also, tested positive.
Seventy-eight-year-old Harold Orillion, he died Wednesday, the local coroner's office says he died of COVID-19, and reports are he attended your services, too.
Did he attend services? Was he a member there, Mr. Orillion?
SPELL: Victor, I'm going say that the rights endowed to us by our Creator are inalienable. I may be defying our governing body's orders but we are to obey God rather than men. Yes, all of these do attend our services, however, you have no way to prove they contracted these viruses in our services anymore than the hundreds of other places --
BLACKWELL: That is absolutely true and an important point, pastor. My question, the follow-up, then, is, if you know that these people, and we know now they have contracted the virus, have you reconsidered having these services online considering that it could be spreading, some people are asymptomatic, throughout the congregation, when you put people together?
SPELL: We have not reconsidered, victor. In fact, Easter Sunday I had 16 different states represented in our Easter Sunday morning service in the congregation. Actually, people are coming out in more numbers to worship freely, because they are seeing that this is such a false balance in our nation. It seems to me like everything is open, except for the church right now. Everything is --
BLACKWELL: That's not true. Not everything is open except for the church.
[07:45:01]
But I want to ask you for people, pastors around the country, who are having these teleworship services, they are able to relay the message, to relay the gospel. Why can't you?
SPELL: We cannot, because the word of God commands us to assemble together, and it is discrimination for me to get on this screen and try to reach the people who do not have the ability to watch me on the screen. That is, if anybody should be up in arms, it ought to be the civil rights movement who are asking me to discriminate against my poorer congregation who do not have Internet, cannot watch me on the phone.
We pick them up. We're running 27 buses this morning, pick them up and bring them to church, feed them a meal and then we're going to have a worship service.
BLACKWELL: You know, you --
SPELL: That's how we can operate.
BLACKWELL: You talk about your core members, your 27 buses you send around.
Let me ask you about what you're starting today. Tough time for so many people. 22 million people nearly, newly unemployed. You talk how needy some members of your congregation and this is what year launching today. Let's play a clip from your video online.
SPELL: Uh-huh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPELL: Number one, April the 19th, 2020, it began. Rule number two, donate your stimulus money. Rule number three, donate it to evangelists, North American evangelists who haven't had an offering in a month. Missionaries, who haven't had an offering in a month. If you don't have a church, give through my website.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: You now are asking people who you know in your congregation who don't have much, can't even get to you without you picking them up to hand over the $1,200 stimulus check. Why?
SPELL: The Pastor Spell's stimulus challenge is to help people who do not get stimuluses such as evangelists and missionaries. So this morning, these evangelists and foreign missionary whose have not had payments for five weeks now will be in the service this morning where we'll give them a large offering.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKWELL: Hold on, Pastor. Non-profits and faith-based ministries can apply for the Paycheck Protection Program. You can get the economic injury --
SPELL: We don't want to.
BLACKWELL: But that is your choice. If you know that your people --
SPELL: Victor --
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKWELL: Sir -- I just made sure that I printed out on these Small Business Administration website, you have the option. My question is and I'll let you answer. I will let you answer.
SPELL: Yes.
BLACKWELL: But to say that people who you know don't have much, you have to go and pick them up to bring them to your church.
SPELL: Uh-huh.
BLACKWELL: To then ask them to hand over the $1,200.
SPELL: That's right.
BLACKWELL: The only money some people will have, and you have another option, why not give that money to them and why isn't this a time for the church to give to those who do not have?
SPELL: We are giving to those who do not have. Number one, I said, this is a challenge. We are challenging you, if you can, give your stimulus package to evangelists and missionary whose do not get the package. They don't file taxes the way you and I do Victor, number one.
Secondly, we are giving to those people who are the most needy. OK? We are giving to them and we do not want SBA loans. We don't want the government to give us a dime. We are happy to provide for ourselves. Never will our federal or state government put one penny into our church, because the second they do, they control us.
BLACKWELL: You are tax exempt though, right?
SPELL: We are 501c3, tax exempt. Yes.
BLACKWELL: OK, you'll accept that status but not apply for the loan.
Pastor Spell, I got to wrap here.
SPELL: Thank you.
BLACKWELL: Thank you very much for coming back and making your case.
SPELL: God bless America.
BLACKWELL: Quick break. We'll take -- we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:51:06]
PAUL: So, I know a lot of us are stressed right now. Well, there's a simple way, and it's free to get some relief, we look at how deep breathing may be some of the best medicine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I manage about 40 rental units. If someone came to me with a problem, I was consumed by it.
When issues happen, I would feel personal about them. That was when I realized I don't want this taking space in my head. The deep breathing is helpful. This allows me to stop and just be quiet. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just simply take a pause and to say, huh, let me
take a few deep breaths. It's shown to have improvements in anxiety and sense of panic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Imagine that you're blowing up a balloon in your belly. When you release your breath, it's like releasing air from a balloon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When someone is anxious or stressed, their breathing rate gets faster. Takes some slow, deep breaths. The rate of breathing actually goes down. We have a reduction in our blood pressure. We also a have a reduction in our heart rate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can be anywhere and going to the post office rather than flipping out about the line, this is an opportunity to relax. It's so handy. It's available 24 hours a day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[07:55:12]
BLACKWELL: So, listen, we have to get creative with celebrations and actually each of us, we were part of a first-hand look at that yesterday, but yours, yours is pretty special.
PAUL: Well, not a lot of sweet in this 16th birthday, I can tell you that. Not mine, clearly. But I received a text from my daughter's friends who asked if they could do this for her.
(VIDEO CLIP PALYS)
PAUL: I'm telling you anybody who says teenagers are not thoughtful, do not have a lot of teenagers in their house. Thank you to all these sweet, thoughtful, compassionate, smart girls who made a 16th birthday as good as it could be. They're her greatest gift.
BLACKWELL: Yes.
PAUL: Thank you so much to them. And good idea if anybody needs them.
And thank you for starting your morning with us.
BLACKWELL: "INSIDE POLITICS WITH JOHN KING" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
