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Pope John Paul II Moved to St. Peter's Basilica

Aired April 04, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The body of Pope John Paul II now in the basilica at St. Peter's at the Vatican. It has been moved. This moving memorial service continuing. This mass, on this day, two days after the passing of Pope John Paul II.
Welcome to our continuing coverage. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We have extensive coverage this hour.

First, let's go back and listen and watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The pilgrimage has begun and will continue. We heard from the director of the press office of the Holy Sea. This will continue throughout night. That is, until 2:00 in the morning, because between 2:00 and 5:00, the basilica will be shut for normal maintenance and technical reasons. Then it will be open again to the pilgrims, who will wish to pay their respects to the pontiff, who was everything for god, and who had given everything to god and to mankind until his last breath.

The words to those who are close to him, holy father, he was told that the square was full of people, especially young people, and with a very weak voice which still could be understood, he replied, "I went out looking for them. Those young people. I found them, and now they have come to me. I thank them."

These were his last words which say everything.

BLITZER: The service is now effectively over, the movement, the moving of Pope John Paul II's body into the basilica at St. Peter's. He will lie in state here as thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands will have a chance to walk past and touch, perhaps, feel, the grace of this fallen pontiff.

We're watching all of this, together with our Alessio Vinci. He's on the scene for us.

Alessio, explain to our viewers what has happened up until this moment today.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Wolf.

These beautiful songs and sounds that you hear from inside St. Peter's Basilica is the liturgy of the word, a prayer service based on the gospels led by the Cardinal Camerlengo, who is basically the Church official, the cardinal in charge of Church affairs throughout this interregnum between the death of a pope and the election of a new one. Basically, what has happened today, in a few words, Wolf, is that the people's pope has been returned to the people. Throughout these past few days, we have seen a private display for the Church officials and the Vatican officials, the Curia, other people with Vatican connections, the diplomatic corps, being able to privately pay their respects inside the Apostolic Palace, which has been for the past 26 years-plus the home of John Paul II, the bishop of Rome. And for the last two days, only people with special access to that place, that location, were allowed in to pay their respects.

I, with a group of other journalists, have been privileged to be there earlier today, Wolf, in the Clementina Room, a magnificent room inside the Apostolic Palace. And they have been -- where the pope has been there on display for the last two days.

Now, today, what happened is that the body of the pope has been transferred from the Apostolic Palace into St. Peter's Basilica, where at about 8:00 p.m. tonight, in about two hours' time, the pope, the lying in state of John Paul II will begin in earnest, so that tens of thousands, perhaps more, hundreds of thousands of people will finally be able to pay their respects to a pope that they loved so much.

And what we've been seeing for the last few hours is a procession from the Apostolic Palace to the St. Peter's Basilica, through St. Peter's Square, where several thousands of people have been waiting for this moment to see and to say a last goodbye to the pope, as he left, basically, his home behind.

The procession was led by Cardinal Camerlengo, and he was carried -- the body of the pope was carried by a group of people known as the Pope's Gentlemen. These are the people who are basically usually the ones in charge of welcoming dignitaries during official visits at the Apostolic Palace, as well as helping out the people arriving at the Apostolic Palace for private audiences with the pope.

He was, of course, flanked by the trusted Swiss Guards. And the procession was led by the Cardinal Camerlengo, as I said, but also by the other cardinals, as well as simple priests.

Now, the day began, of course, with a meeting known as the General Congregation, which is all the cardinals who are making their way here to Rome, are meeting regularly, beginning today, every day, until the conclave. And basically, this is a meeting mandatory for all the cardinals participating in the so-called conclave, which is a process of electing a new pope.

And in these meetings, they basically make decisions on ordinary or important matters which cannot be postponed. I know in particular, of course, organizing the funeral, the burial and the conclave itself. And at the end of a two-hour meeting this morning, we were told that the funeral of Pope John Paul II will begin, will happen on Friday morning at 10:00 a.m. local time here in Rome.

We do know that Pope John Paul II has not left any instructions about any specific places where he would want to be buried. There were some speculations, perhaps, that he could have left a letter behind asking to be buried in Poland. No such letter, no such instructions were left behind -- left behind. So according to tradition, the pope will be buried in the crypt underneath the St. Peter's Basilica.

BLITZER: Alessio, I'm going to interrupt you. President Bush is speaking about the passing of Pope John Paul II now at the White House. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... express our gratitude to the almighty for such a man. And, of course, we look forward to the majesty of celebrating such a significant human life.

One more.

BLITZER: Holding a news conference right now with the visiting president of Ukraine, President Yushchenko. We'll be monitoring that news conference for additional information.

Let's go back to Rome. Our Aaron Brown is on the scene as well.

Aaron, set the stage for us. What's it like to be there right now?

AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's -- at the risk of sounding disrespectful -- I certainly don't mean it that way -- we're in a kind of odd state of the in-between. What has happened, the passing of the pope on Saturday, the shock of that, though certainly it was not unexpected, the sorrow, the kind of intense sorrow that that generated in Rome and around the world has, in many respects, has taken place over the weekend. And now we're in a kind of in-between, as pilgrims arrive, as we prepare for Friday's funeral. And beyond that, we prepare for selecting the pope's successor.

And it's an opportunity, I think, for those of us who have been here to, at one measure, take a breath and step back. It's been a remarkable privilege to have reported such a historic event, and also to take a look at some of the issues that now present itself to the pope's successor, to some of the issues that face the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church in the United States faces one set of issues. For example, there's a push to be more progressive or more liberal, if you will, while the Catholic Church in some of its fastest-growing areas in Africa, and in Latin America, the push is in quite the opposite direction.

So it's an opportunity to share with viewers, I think, some of the challenges that the billion-plus Catholics in the world face as their leadership, in some respects, the last great monarchy in the world, the papacy and the Catholic hierarchy, gathers to not simply select the man who will lead it in going forward, but also to deal with the issues that it knows well that that man will have to face.

BLITZER: Aaron, we see these glorious images on television, but do they really do justice to what you see there in person? In other words, does the TV pictures that we see really convey the majesty of what's unfolding?

BROWN: Well, I said the other day, and I'll say it again, the television does a lot of wonderful things, but what it doesn't do is convey very well a sense of feeling. So we can show you, and we have proudly shown you, and will the majesty that unfolds. You'll be able to see the colors, if you will. What you can't experience unless you touch the ground, as we reporters say, is the intensity of the feeling of an event like this.

At the risk of, take my word for, it it's profound, it's unforgettable. You see it in people's eyes, in the most casual moments.

Now, the fact is Rome is also a city that went back to work today. The traffic coming in is the traffic that exists in Rome on a late afternoon rush hour. Horns honk, people yell at cops, and all the rest. But there is a kind of -- and this was particularly true, I thought, in that first 24-hour period -- a kind of stillness that seemed to embody the city and the souls of the city the television, for all its wonderful, glorious power, is incapable yet of projecting.

BLITZER: In looking at the faces of the pilgrims who have come, the faithful, Aaron, are they crying? Are they smiling? Are they hopeful? Or can you not just categorize them in one kind of description?

BROWN: Well, I wouldn't try. I wouldn't try.

I mean, to be honest, to some extent people don't come here with "pilgrim" label on their shirts. So you don't always know.

What I think you know is that what we are experiencing -- and this is true particularly among Catholics, but I think to a certain extent among non-Catholics -- is not some great tragedy. The pope lived a long, full, rich, important, productive, wonderful life. He died a dignified death at an age that was, I think, we would all say we would be -- hope to god that we live so long.

So it's not a great tragedy that you see in people. It is a great sense of sorrow, particularly among Catholics.

There was a Catholic leader who said the other day -- it's a line I'll never forget because I think for the first time as a non-Catholic I began to understand something. He said, "Today, we Catholics, today we are all orphans."

And so imagine the feeling, if you will, of losing a father. And I think you imagine well the feeling that Catholics in the city of Rome and Catholics, the billion-plus Catholics around the world, particularly the most devote of those million -- billion-plus Catholics must feel.

BLITZER: Aaron, I'm going to have you stand by.

To our viewers, I just want to update you. The pictures that you're seeing on the right part of the screen, that was the procession carrying the body of Pope John Paul II from the Apostolic Palace into St. Peter's Basilica just a little while ago. These are live pictures now. The Vatican inside that crowd, a huge crowd, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, already there.

Bill Hemmer is right in the middle of things. Bill, first of all, where are you?

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am in St. Peter's Square, Wolf. Just -- oh, I would say just a little somewhat south of this exact center of the square.

Wolf, I wanted to show you the crowds that have come out here. This is the main road that leads into St. Peter's Square. It goes back about a quarter to a half-mile behind me.

For the past 3.5 hours, Wolf, it has been nothing but a sea of humanity. All these people waiting for their chance, their opportunity to come into St. Peter's Square. And one would think, also, that a number of these people will get in line to pay their final respects to the body of Pope John Paul II.

Now, part of the reason why they're frozen, Wolf, is because when we waited for the procession to come into the square, is that the police here stopped everybody from moving. It was a sign of dignity and respect, and also a sign to take a moment and pause to think about what was happening in front of them.

And there were two -- there were really two waves of applause that came in here, Wolf. The first one was when the cardinals came with the body first. You heard a polite applause come across. But when the pope's body was brought up the steps, right before he entered St. Peter's Church, they rotated the body around, showed it to the crowd yet again, and then we heard the applause much louder the second time.

We have seen people here throughout day trying to get a better view. You can imagine it's just a huge area here in St. Peter's Square. And you see a lot of husbands trying to help their wives get a boost up to look over other people, you see some people climbing on top of the barricades to get a better view as well. And everybody seems like they have a camera to try and capture this moment, this moment in time, and this moment in history.

The crowds are moving again, and they will for several days now, about 4.5 as best we can tell. When the funeral comes around, Friday, the end of this week, it will be quite a scene and quite a moment.

The one thing that's difficult for us to know at this point, Wolf, is how many people will truly get the opportunity to pay their final respects to the pope. The public viewing begins tonight around at 9:00 local time in the evening, which is about 3:00 there in D.C.

It's just a bit past 6:00 in the evening now. So about three hours from now the official public viewing will get under way. And that will continue for 21 hours a day up until Friday morning. St. Peters, the church, will only close for three hours a night, from 2:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. All part of the idea to help as many people that want to see the body of Pope John Paul II and pay their final respects to give them that chance here in the Vatican -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Bill, is there any estimate how long these people are going to have to stand in line to get a glimpse of the pope?

HEMMER: No estimate at this point, Wolf. I can give you an idea about what people are up against out here, though, for those who get the opportunity ultimately.

I was given a chance earlier to attend a private viewing. And we were told it was private. We went there in the morning. And when we showed up, there were at least 5,000 people in line already in front of us. This was for the private viewing.

And over the weekend, too, so many people have come here to see this beautiful church. It is so massive, the largest in the world, St. Peters Basilica. And every day, on Saturday and on Sunday, and again today, there was the line that snaked through St. Peter's Square, several thousand people in line, just to get inside the church.

This was before the pontiff's body stood there lying in state. So you can imagine you're going to need an awful lot of patience. And it will take clearly several hours for those who want to have the opportunity.

But much of that will depend, Wolf, I think, on the numbers that come out here. And at this point, we can only say those numbers will be extraordinary. How large, we'll wait and see for an answer on that.

BLITZER: All right, Bill. Stand by.

Aaron Brown, I understand security must be quite intense. Two million people expected to move into Rome over the next few days. From your vantage point, what's it like?

BROWN: Well, security in the post-9/11 era, security everywhere in big events, is always extraordinarily intense. I'll be honest. Getting here today was a little more difficult than it had been because traffic was a little more difficult, and some roads have been -- some streets in a city where nothing quite moves in a straight line anyway, to be honest, some streets have been closed off.

But you don't -- you don't get a sense yet of suffocating security of the sort, for example, Wolf, that you'd be very familiar with in Washington if you just go back to the inauguration and how suffocating the security felt there. It may be that by Friday it will, in fact, feel that way. It doesn't now.

If I could just add one small thing to what Bill ably reported a moment ago. The decision to -- we don't presume to know how the cardinals think. But the decision to hold the funeral on Friday morning puts it at the outer edge of Church law.

And one of those things that Church law require that the funeral be held on the fourth to the sixth day. One of the things that that decision allows is the maximum number of people to come through to view the body of the pope.

Among the things the Church hierarchy is most aware of is that this man, the only pope that half of the world has ever known, touched more lives in a more direct way because of his travels than any pope ever and all popes combined. And so by putting the funeral off until the last possible day, if you will, the latest point that Church law allowed, the Church leaders, the cardinals have allowed the maximum number of people to come and participate in this final viewing.

There are many ways to pay the pope's last respects. And most Catholics will not be able to be here to do so. But the College of Cardinals and the Church officials who are organizing this have at least set this up in such a way so that as many people who can get here and who have the patience to wait through it all will have the opportunity.

BLITZER: Which makes an enormous amount sense, to stretch it out. So many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people would like to catch a glimpse of Pope John Paul II lying in rest in the basilica at St. Peters. It makes sense to stretch it out a little bit.

Aaron, there had been some earlier speculation that this pope might have left a note saying he wanted to be buried in his native Poland. I take it that has now been dismissed. He is going to be buried at the Vatican.

BROWN: It's clear from everything we know he's going to be buried at the Vatican, as the tradition of the Church does not require, but has been practiced, I think, in all but one case. And I may be wrong about that.

The people of Poland, I suspect, are not particularly happy with that. But I think they're at least accepting that these are the pope's wishes.

He was the pope of all Catholics in all of the world. And there's certain respect for the tradition of the Church, a Church that is perhaps more than any seeped in tradition. So while we would understand, because of the enormous personal pride that Poles take in this native son of theirs and all he accomplished, and one could understand why they would have wanted his final resting place to be back in Poland, in Krakow, where he was the archbishop, or in the town not far from there where he was born.

I suspect that after the momentary disappointment of that they, too, will accept that this long line of Church tradition that stretches back so many hundreds and hundreds of years needs to be honored as well.

BLITZER: Aaron, stand by. I want to bring in Chester Gillis. He's the chairman of the theology department at Georgetown University here in Washington. And Monsignor Kevin Irwin, he's professor of theology at Catholic University here in Washington as well.

Chester Gillis, I'll start with you. The pictures of that procession, who are those pallbearers that were bringing him to the basilica at St. Peter's?

CHESTER GILLIS, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, they're profession greeters form the Vatican who, as we heard in the commentary, the Vatican is a place of bustling activity all the time, with diplomats, world leaders and clerics coming to visit pope with regularity. These people would be the people in the Vatican who would take care of arrangements for people such as that.

And I'm sure all of them were close to the pope, physically close to the pope on a regular basis. And then they're called upon for this final duty to carry him to his resting place.

BLITZER: I can't imagine a higher honor, Monsignor Irwin, than to be a pallbearer for a pope, especially Pope John Paul II.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. And also followed the -- following the body were three people who were always in procession with him while he was alive, and that is his private secretary, Archbishop Dziwisz. In addition, there's the papal almoner, the one who gives the pope's charities to the world. And then last but not least, is the archbishop of the papal household, Archbishop James Harvey from Milwaukee.

They assisted him in life, and now they followed him in death.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, the point that Aaron Brown just made about stretching out this period where the pope can lie in rest in the basilica, it makes an enormous amount of sense. It's sort of like a slam dunk. Why would anyone even think that they should do it within four days when you could stretch it out into six days?

GILLIS: Well, it was up to their discretion. They can make a decision, any decision they wanted to make. But obviously this was the prudent decision.

And obviously, you know, the crush of humanity that will be coming into Rome to pay their respects to the pope. And wanting to give everyone, or as many people as possible, the opportunity that they themselves will have in a very personal manner for private viewing to the massive public from around the world who loved this pope, makes perfect sense. Perfect sense. Also, it gives time for world leaders to assemble for the funeral.

BLITZER: Would this be a decision, Chester Gillis, that the pope himself made? Because we know he spelled out what he wanted. Or would this be left to the cardinals who have now assembled?

GILLIS: No, this is left to the discretion of the cardinals always for this particular matter. The pope may have left instructions, but it seems he didn't leave specific instructions contrary to this. So they have the prerogative to make the decision to -- when the funeral will actually occur within the parameters of what Canon Law has established.

BLITZER: Every aspect of this procession, Monsignor Irwin, is perfectly detailed and spelled out how they can do it. There's not a whole lot of room for improvisation.

Explain some of the technical reasons, because the more I learn about this, the more logic there seems to be for everything that happens from the time the pope passes away and the time that there's a new pope who's elected.

IRWIN: It's very carefully structured simply because it is of the supreme, the greatest thing we do in terms of honoring the dead and honoring the pope as Catholics. And everything is structured so that everyone is on board, knows what's happening, so that the real energy can go into deep prayer that is structured by these rituals. Rituals being liturgy, and liturgy being the word meaning the people's prayer.

They're structured so that people can, in the best sense, immerse themselves in them and pray very, very deeply. And then the protocols about the election of a pope are very carefully done.

So the details they don't worry about. The College of Cardinals have a job to do, and the job is to pray and to discuss and to come up with the best candidate. The details have to be in place so the real work is done.

BLITZER: Are these cardinals, Chester Gillis, already thinking about the election of a new pope? Or would be that totally inappropriate until after the funeral and the conclave begins?

GILLIS: Well, I think publicly you won't hear them discuss potential candidates.

BLITZER: Publicly, they could be excommunicated, correct me if I'm wrong, if they do that.

GILLIS: Exactly. But to say have they been thinking about, it I'm sure that they are thinking about it, of course. And even preceding the pope's death with great respect for the pope, of course.

BLITZER: But are they amongst themselves talking about it? Is that appropriate?

GILLIS: They may be doing it, but in very private quarters over dinners or in meetings of two or three. Never in public, and probably less so now than after all the rituals are done. And then the intense kind of discussions about who might be the successor.

And many of them of course know each other, and they know their dispositions about where they might take the Church. So at least they have inklings of them from numbers of years of public speeches and writings. So they have some sense already of who might be a potential pope and who might not be.

BLITZER: You want to weigh in, Monsignor Irwin, on that -- on that thought?

IRWIN: I think that's absolutely correct. I mean, what happens is that, where twos and threes are gathered, there's discussions and there's reverential concern about where we are to go.

The very fact that there are between 15 and 20 days between the pope's death and the conclave is a time in the Church's wisdom to say we need to get to know each other better and to find out where we stand on issues. And there's no politicking in the sense of nominating speeches, but there's a good bit of energy because this is an extraordinarily burdensome decision they have to bear. And they don't want to do this just by themselves. And the best sense of collaboration has to take place.

BLITZER: Of the 117 cardinals under the age of 80 who will be eligible to vote, all but three of them -- correct me if I'm wrong, Chester Gillis -- were appointed by Pope John Paul II.

GILLIS: Yes. So they owe their allegiance to him for the very positions that they hold. But in addition to them, in these preliminary conversations, the other cardinals -- there are 183 cardinals in the Church, so there are a number of cardinals who are 80 years old or older. Those who are able-bodied will also be there, and they'll participate in discussions, these private discussions as well.

BLITZER: What's the theory, with all due respect, Monsignor Irwin? Because it seems to be age discrimination. There are a lot of people in their 80s who are still quite capable of making important decision. Who came up with the idea that if you're over 80, you can't vote for a new pope?

IRWIN: It was Pope Paul VI. And just as John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II left instructions tweaking the procedure about election.

Yes, today we would say that in terms of age discrimination, but Pope Paul was at a time -- was pope at a time when there was concern about the possibility of senility, dare I say that word. And therefore, someone voting without all of their faculties.

Now, in 1978, when there was -- there were two conclaves, Cardinal Sheehan, the retired cardinal from Baltimore, was in Rome, but could not vote, but mentally alert and sharp as a tack, as we might say. I expect the age is a way of getting around any kind of medical judgment whether you could or could not be mentally able to vote.

BLITZER: It's now the bottom of the hour. We're looking at this live picture, a beautiful picture of the Vatican. The body of Pope John Paul II has now been moved. It's lying in rest at St. Peter's Basilica, a moving transfer of that body from the Apostolic Palace to St. Peter's Basilica.

He is there right now. Within the next couple hours or so, the thousand will begin to walk by and pay their respects to this extraordinary pontiff. Only a few moments ago, the president of the United States, who will be attending the funeral Friday morning in the Vatican, spoke about this pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH: First, Laura and I are looking forward to leading a delegation to honor the holy father. He will go down in history as a -- he will show people that one man can make a difference in people's lives. He's a courageous person. He's a moral person. He was a godly person. And he's had huge influence, Steve, not only amongst for example young people in America, but around the world.

One of his great legacies will be the influence he had on the young. He spoke to the poor, he spoke to morality, and of course, he was a man of peace, and he didn't like -- he didn't like war, and I fully understood that, and I appreciated the conversations I had with the holy father on the subject. I remember the going to Castille Gandolfo. Laura and I were there, and I can remember him taking us out on the balcony of this fabulous palace, overlooking this magnificent lake and talking about his views of the world. It's a moment I will never forget during my presidency.

And so the world will miss him and it is -- you know, my great honor, on behalf of our country, to express our gratitude to the Almighty for such a man. And of course, we look forward to the majesty of celebrating such a significant human life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The president speaking only a few moments ago. He will lead the U.S. delegation to the funeral of Pope John Paul II Friday morning, 4:00 a.m. Eastern time, 10:00 a.m. local time in Rome. The president will be the first sitting president of the United States to attend the funeral of a pope.

Monsignor Irwin, this is a big deal. It says a lot about America and the Catholic Church.

IRWIN: It is a big deal, but this pope was a big deal, and this president knows that. And I think that their cooperation and their respect for each other is very, very palpable. But it is a great honor for our country in the sense that our president will be going, and it shows a great reference for the holy father and for the office that the papacy has become, almost larger than life under John Paul II.

BLITZER: Chris Burns is standing by in Krakow, Poland, the homeland of Pope John Paul II. First of all, Chris, are they disappointed that he will be buried at Vatican rather than at his native Poland?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, a snap unscientific poll outside the apostolic residence where the pope used to speak from the window and people now paying their respects, as they generally accept it, but there is a bit of debate. You couldn't really call it a battle over the pope's body, but there is a debate.

The mayor of Krakow says he should be buried here. At least his heart should be, according to Polish tradition. He says that this man is the greatest Pole who ever lived and should be buried in his home country. The head of the Wavel Cathedral here, where the kings of Poland are buried, says his heart should be buried there. He says it would be for us the most precious treasure. However, Cardinal Maharski (ph), who's on his way to Rome to elect the next pope pretty much said, no, the pope is going to be buried there and he is going to stay there.

But there is debate also if you think about blogging, on the main -- one of the biggest Web sites here in Poland, the bloggers are going back and forth on this. One saying he was great man, his heart should return to his land of birth, and the another saying the heart of John Paul II belongs to the world and should be buried at the Vatican. So the debate goes on.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Burns, we'll be getting back to you. Let me back Aaron Brown, who's been listening to this conversation. Aaron, for our viewers who are just tuning in right now, explain what has happened, What is happening right now and in the next couple hours, what we will see?

BROWN: Well, we -- the service has been held, the square is still mostly full, or more full than not. The pope's body has been moved to the basilica at St. Peter's, and within a couple of hours, I think 9:00 local time, so about two and a half hours from now, we will begin to see a scene which we will then watch. And in this time of mass media, which penetrates literally every corner of the globe, all citizens of the globe will watch as a stream of people, pilgrims, the most devout and the most hardy in many respects, will come to pay their last respects to John Paul. That will culminate on a service on Friday at 10:00 Eastern time back in the United States that you just talked about.

The president will attend, much of the world's -- many of the world's most powerful people will attend that. One of the things -- I've got a couple, a question and a half if I can, of you and your guests. One of these you may know, and your guests will have some thoughts. I wonder if as part of that delegation, the president's brother, Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, who is a convert to Catholicism, will be part of the delegation that comes here. That would be a great privilege for one brother to extend to another, I would think, and it will be a formidable delegation and I wonder if the governor of Florida will be a part of it.

And another question I had of your guests, when they were talking about the time to -- that is set aside to contemplate what the qualities must be of the next pope. If they think that one of the things that the college of cardinals must determine is whether they want a pope of some youth, let's say a pope in his 60s, early 60s, whose reign might last for many years, a quarter of a century as John Paul's did, or whether after such a long, powerful and important papacy, if they might seek someone older, whose reign will be shorter, to allow a kind of, a time of, I don't know, settling for lack of a better word, for the church, its hierarchy and its membership.

BLITZER: Those are good questions. I spoke within the past hour, Aaron, to a spokesman for Governor Jeb Bush of Florida who is, as you point out, a convert to Catholicism. His wife is a devout Catholic. He's going to be making a statement later this afternoon to the Florida media. Unclear whether he will be part of the presidential delegation. I'm assume if he wants to go, his brother would be more than happy to take him along. But it's unclear whether Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, will join President and Mrs. Bush on the trip to the Vatican.

On the issue that Aaron raises about the age of a new pope. Pope John II, Chester, was what? In his late 50s when he became -- he was 58 years old when he became pope. That seems like a pretty good age, if you want someone to serve for a long time.

GILLIS: It does seem like a pretty good age, if you want somebody to serve for a long time. But as Aaron suggested, maybe the church wants to digest the papacy of John Paul II and the richness of this and the length of it and the depth of it in the next papacy, which might make for a shorter one.

Also, when you think about having a 26-year papacy, just as an analogy, think if you had a president of the United States who was president for 26 years. That person puts such a firm mark on the society which he governs, and this pope has put such a firm mark on the church that maybe the cardinals will think that's a very long time, and that's a period in which you could have two or three popes, potentially, as you have in history, and you get diversity in the papacy, rather than getting into a single mode, even though it was one that was remarkable.

BLITZER: John Allen is our Vatican analyst. He's on the scene in Rome for us. John, you, I think accurately pointed out only yesterday that anyone who tries to speculate and guess about the next pope is either foolish or getting involved in pretty dangerous territory. You can't really predict what the cardinals are going to do.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, that's absolutely right, Wolf. I mean, for one thing, bear in mind, this is not like, you know, a secular political campaign, where you've got polls or campaign war chests to evaluate. I mean, we have none of those indicators. What we have are some historical patterns, upon which we can erect some educated guesswork. But that's really all it is.

Now I mean, it should be said, that if you look at last five papal elections. That is the election of Pious XII, then John XXXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul I, John Paul II, in about two of those occasions, a front-runner actually did win. That is in the election of Pious XII, many people thought Eugenio Pushelli (ph), who had been the secretary of state, might win. He did. In the election of Paul VI, many people thought that the Cardinal Montini (ph) who had been very much the right-hand man of Paul XII, of Pious XII rather, and a key Vatican figure to be elected, he did.

John XXIII and John Paul I were sort of middle of the tier, so to speak, candidates. But really the only bolt from the blue there was the election of Karol Wojtyla, John Paul II, because he broke the centuries of tradition of electing Italian popes.

So the moral of the story is being a front-runner doesn't mean nothing, but neither does it mean everything. Surprise is always possible.

BLITZER: The last time a pope passed away, Jimmy Carter was president of the United States, John, and he sent, what, his wife for one of the funerals, his mother for another of the funerals. He didn't go at that time. What was the thinking, based on your research?

ALLEN: Well, Wolf, I think the most important fact or is that in 1978, the United States and the Vatican did not have formal diplomatic relation, that happened only in 1984 under President Reagan, and this has been the first death a pope since that moment. So from a diplomatic point of view it was critical that these two states -- and let's remember, the Holy Sea is a sovereign state. It has relations, formal diplomatic relations, with 174 nations and international organizations. It was critically important for the two states to enter into formal relations before it would have been sort of diplomatically conceivable for a president of the United States to come.

I think we can add to that, that, you know, I personally suspect that whether or not that were the case, I cannot but believe that President George Bush, given his obvious affection and respect, and I think one can almost use the word awe of Pope John Paul II, wouldn't have wanted to strive mightily to be here.

BLITZER: The other president was John F. Kennedy, himself a Catholic, the first Catholic president of the United States who was in the White House when a pope passed away in 1963. What was the thinking then, based on your research, as far as that was concerned?

ALLEN: Well, you mean in terms of why Kennedy did not come to the funeral?

BLITZER: Right. Was it the same thing that Jimmy Carter had?

ALLEN: I think it's the same logic. That is the United States and the Vatican were not in diplomatic relations, and of course you remember, Wolf, that part of the politics in the 1960 election were that Kennedy had to demonstrate his independence to a certain extent from the Vatican. I mean, there was the famous speech in Houston which he indicated that he would not take orders from Rome if he were elected president of the United States. So I suspect there was probably a political calculus there as well.

BLITZER: All right, let's bring back Bill Hemmer. He's there near the Vatican, right outside the Vatican.

Bill, what's happening now?

HEMMER: Wolf, thanks. We are with this crowd of people, an enormous crowd of people, by the way.

Brendan (ph), come on over here with me a second. Now I will say, Wolf, the majority of them speak Italian, but there are a few folks who speak English, so we can spare you the translation, including this gentlemen.

What is your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mandalay Mutu (ph).

HEMMER: You came from where?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From India.

HEMMER: How long have you been waiting in line here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since 3:00.

HEMMER: 3:00 this afternoon? That was about four hours ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HEMMER: And how long are you willing to wait to pay your respects to pope John Paul II?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until I get the chance to pay the homage.

HEMMER: The way things are going, that may be a very long time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'll wait.

HEMMER: What did he mean to you, and why is it important for you to be here along with so many other people?

I feel it's great, and he's a man who worked for peace, and he's -- regardless of all the religion -- he's beyond the religion. There are so many people. They are not Catholics. They are ready to pay the homage, because he won the hearts of the people.

HEMMER: Are you Catholic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HEMMER: Earlier you were telling me about the saints in Heaven, and where you think he is. Give our viewers an idea what is running through your mind with regard to that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In his lifetime he has crowned so many saints, and he'll be happy to see the saints in Heaven right now.

HEMMER: Thank you, and good luck. It gets cold at night, you know. Are you ready for that? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm happy. He has suffered a lot. The people to bring over the peace, but this is a very simple thing for me.

HEMMER: Good luck tonight, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

HEMMER: All right. Wolf, as far as the eye can see, it's a bit difficult to show our viewers at home, but this crowd goes back almost a half mile, and this is now just beginning. This young man, he has a bottle of water here, because a short time ago, the Civil Defense Force -- I'll just give you an idea, Wolf, what's happening here, they're passing out water to those who need it, and then earlier asking about our location, we're at the very beginning of the walls of Vatican City. I mentioned the road that goes out. This is pretty much the main road that comes into St. Peter's Square. It's hard to see past these people, but I'll give you an idea, We're a pretty long way across St. Peter's Square up until the beginning and opening for the church. This will be the road all these people will travel.

And by the way, we spoke to a number of people through our Italian translator, Wolf, and to a person, these people in line over here, they all say they're willing to wait however long it takes to pay their final respects to pope John Paul II.

I mentioned it gets cold at night, and that has been a fact the past several days, and they will have a very long wait. But all of them tell us it is worth it and they'll wait here in St. Peter's Square -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I suspect, Bill, Friday morning 10:00 a.m. Rome time when the funeral actually begins, and presumably the opportunity to walk past Pope John Paul II's body will have ended, there will still be tens of thousands of disappointed pilgrims who will have made that trek to Rome who won't be able to walk past, but that's just my suspicion, given these long lines.

HEMMER: Well, you know, it's interesting in 1978, they actually extended, they extended the observation and the lying in state for another day because there were so many people had come here to Rome. There's more water being passed out here behind me, excuse me, Wolf. Whether that's a possibility or not, I really think at this point, when they picked Friday, that is day six, and Vatican law says between day four and six you must conduct this funeral, they went to the outer edge of that, in part, to allow people to observe and give enough people the opportunity to pay their final respects.

The other thing that is critical is the Vatican earlier today announced, and it seemed they said it with a sense of pride, that St. Peter's will stay open for almost the entire day and night, 21 hours in total, only closing between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. The entire time outside of that there will be pilgrims and mourners who come and pay their respects inside of St. Peter's Basilica.

BLITZER: All right, Bill, we'll be getting back to you. Bill Hemmer's on the scene for us, together with our terrific team of reporters, and producers, photographers, who are covering history this historic moment at the Vatican.

We'll take a quick break. More of our special coverage, right after this.

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BLITZER: These are live pictures of the Vatican. Pope John Paul II, his body is now lying in rest at St. Peter's Basilica. It's been moved from the Apostolic Palace, only within the past couple hours. A very somber but very moving ceremony. As the procession continued, within the next couple hours, average people have been standing in line for hours and for many more hours, they will be able to walk past the body of Pope John Paul II, utter a prayer, say their -- give their respects to this giant of the Catholic Church.

Monsignor Irwin is still with us. Kevin Irwin is the professor the theology at Catholic University here in Washington, D.C. Also Chester Gillis is the chairman of the theology department at Georgetown University. John Allen, our CNN Vatican analyst, is still with us, as well.

Let me begin with you, Monsignor Irwin. As people walk by the body of John Paul II, what are they supposed to do? Is this just anything what comes -- what they feel like doing? Or is there, according to the Catholic tradition, a prayer or something you're supposed to do?

IRWIN: Well, two things happen. One is the public prayer that we saw when the cardinals were gathered with the dignitaries inside St. Peter's. That's a structured prayer that would be said at anybody's wake, any Christian's wake, the same kind of prayers and readings. But when one follows -- when one processes by one's self, one says a prayer to one's self, Our Father, whatever one would want to say to oneself. There's nothing required and it's a poignant matter of personal relationship with the pope and with God at that moment.

BLITZER: Is there, Monsignor Irwin, something according to the religion that would prevent -- you heard some polish leaders saying maybe his heart could be removed. He could buried in the Vatican, but bury his heart in Poland. Is that -- would that be allowed?

IRWIN: It would be allowed, it has happened, and that's one of the particularities of Catholic burial rights of certain persons, that parts of it would go someplace else and we revere those parts of those bodies as called relics, and those relics are very much revered, could be in other places.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, that would be a highly unusual event, though, for a pope.

GILLIS: Well, actually, it isn't as unusual as you think. There is a church in Rome that's designated, where certain parts, could be hearts of several popes now reside independent of their bodies. So it's been a tradition. The medieval notion that the heart is the essence of the human person. In modernity we would think the brain...

BLITZER: So if that were to happen, on this occasion, you wouldn't be all that shocked?

GILLIS: No, well, I don't think it will happen in this occasion. It has not happened for a long time. But it has happened historically. It's not unprecedented, nor is it prohibited. But this kind of tussle over the body of the pope is a little bit indelicate at this moment, and I think I'm sure that the whole body will be buried at the Vatican, as most recent popes have been.

And it's also a symbol that this is the leader of the whole world of Catholics, not just the Poles. They certainly have a justifiable pride, but the prominence which he had was really associated with Rome and his role there.

BLITZER: John Allen is in Rome. Do we know if the pope actually left specific instructions on his burial?

ALLEN: Actually, Wolf, the information we have is that the pope did not leave any specific instructions on his burial and therefore, according to what has become Vatican custom -- roughly half of the popes -- and there, of course, John Paul was, of course, the 263rd successor of St. Peter and roughly half of that number are buried in the grotto below St. Peter's Basilica. Therefore, because the pope did not leave instructions to the contrary, that's where he's going to be entombed.

Bear in mind, Wolf, the logic for that, aside from the fact that it's a convenience place for devotion, is that St. Peter's Basilica was erected precisely on the spot where Saint Peter himself is believed to have been buried. And the bones of Peter, which were discovered during an archaeological excavation during the pontificate of Pious XII, are actually preserved in a plexiglass case under the main altar at St. Peter's Basilica. So that's the logic why so many successors of St. Peter would be buried in that spot.

BLITZER: Monsignor Irwin, what does it mean to you, as an American Catholic, that the president of the United States is going to be going to Rome for this funeral?

IRWIN: I can't help but feel a great sense of pride, a great sense of encouragement for the kinds of principles that this pope has stood for and that the -- our highest governance would consider going to this is an enormous compliment and an encouragement, as I say, to stay on the path of our principles that this man stood for.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, you've been reading some of these Web sites, some of the blogs. There's some people in the United States who aren't happy that the president is going?

GILLIS: Yes, there are. I think that the kind of prominence that Roman Catholicism is getting, in the light of the pope's death, some others think why so much attention to this particular figure? Well, clearly, because he was a religious leader, but also he was a human leader, he was a political leader. This is a man who has touched human history and not just Catholics.

For Catholics, it happens to be a moment of great pride and a moment of great solemnity, especially American Catholics after the recent scandals with the priest abuse, sexual abuse crisis, in which the church was heavily tainted and criticized by many people. This is a chance for the church to show its best side and its goodness to humanity.

BLITZER: John Allen, we know that the wedding of Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles is being postponed a day so that Prince Charles can attend the funeral on Friday. I assume leaders from all over the world are making arrangements to fly in. Who else is coming, based on what you've heard?

ALLEN: Well, among other things, Wolf, earlier today, there were reports that the head of state in Syria, Bashir Assad, might be here, but the truth is that virtually every prime minister or president of significance from all points of the compass will be here. It is significant, of course, that President Assad and I'm certain other leaders from the Islamic world will be here. That, of course, is one of the real points of emphasis of John Paul's pontificate, outreach to Muslims.

I remember during the pope's trip to Azerbaijan, I was on the plane on the trip. There were all of 120 Catholics in Azerbaijan, Wolf, and I actually ran the math. It would have been four times less expensive to bring them to Rome than to bring the pope to Azerbaijan. But of course, the point was, he wanted to meet them where them where they were.

And I interviewed all these young Muslims who turned out for a papal mass to ask why they were there. And almost to a person, they gave essentially the same answer. This pope reached out to us, and we wanted to return the gesture, we wanted to be here in the spirit of friendship.

And it really will be interesting to see that not just the heads of state and the dignitaries from so-called Christian nations of the West, but from all over the world, who don't necessarily share the pope's philosophic or religious or moral outlook, but nevertheless recognize something they responded to in this man. Something about the universality of his appeal will be on display at that funeral.

BLITZER: John Allen, our Vatican analyst, joining us. Thank you, John, very much. Chester Gillis, want to thank you. Monsignor Kevin Irwin, thank you to both of you for helping us better understand what's happening right now.

I'll be back later today at 3:30 p.m. Eastern, together with Judy Woodruff for CNN's continuing coverage of today's events at the Vatican. Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Kyra Phillips and Betty Nguyen will be picking up our coverage right after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 4, 2005 - 12:00   ET
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The body of Pope John Paul II now in the basilica at St. Peter's at the Vatican. It has been moved. This moving memorial service continuing. This mass, on this day, two days after the passing of Pope John Paul II.
Welcome to our continuing coverage. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We have extensive coverage this hour.

First, let's go back and listen and watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The pilgrimage has begun and will continue. We heard from the director of the press office of the Holy Sea. This will continue throughout night. That is, until 2:00 in the morning, because between 2:00 and 5:00, the basilica will be shut for normal maintenance and technical reasons. Then it will be open again to the pilgrims, who will wish to pay their respects to the pontiff, who was everything for god, and who had given everything to god and to mankind until his last breath.

The words to those who are close to him, holy father, he was told that the square was full of people, especially young people, and with a very weak voice which still could be understood, he replied, "I went out looking for them. Those young people. I found them, and now they have come to me. I thank them."

These were his last words which say everything.

BLITZER: The service is now effectively over, the movement, the moving of Pope John Paul II's body into the basilica at St. Peter's. He will lie in state here as thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands will have a chance to walk past and touch, perhaps, feel, the grace of this fallen pontiff.

We're watching all of this, together with our Alessio Vinci. He's on the scene for us.

Alessio, explain to our viewers what has happened up until this moment today.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Wolf.

These beautiful songs and sounds that you hear from inside St. Peter's Basilica is the liturgy of the word, a prayer service based on the gospels led by the Cardinal Camerlengo, who is basically the Church official, the cardinal in charge of Church affairs throughout this interregnum between the death of a pope and the election of a new one. Basically, what has happened today, in a few words, Wolf, is that the people's pope has been returned to the people. Throughout these past few days, we have seen a private display for the Church officials and the Vatican officials, the Curia, other people with Vatican connections, the diplomatic corps, being able to privately pay their respects inside the Apostolic Palace, which has been for the past 26 years-plus the home of John Paul II, the bishop of Rome. And for the last two days, only people with special access to that place, that location, were allowed in to pay their respects.

I, with a group of other journalists, have been privileged to be there earlier today, Wolf, in the Clementina Room, a magnificent room inside the Apostolic Palace. And they have been -- where the pope has been there on display for the last two days.

Now, today, what happened is that the body of the pope has been transferred from the Apostolic Palace into St. Peter's Basilica, where at about 8:00 p.m. tonight, in about two hours' time, the pope, the lying in state of John Paul II will begin in earnest, so that tens of thousands, perhaps more, hundreds of thousands of people will finally be able to pay their respects to a pope that they loved so much.

And what we've been seeing for the last few hours is a procession from the Apostolic Palace to the St. Peter's Basilica, through St. Peter's Square, where several thousands of people have been waiting for this moment to see and to say a last goodbye to the pope, as he left, basically, his home behind.

The procession was led by Cardinal Camerlengo, and he was carried -- the body of the pope was carried by a group of people known as the Pope's Gentlemen. These are the people who are basically usually the ones in charge of welcoming dignitaries during official visits at the Apostolic Palace, as well as helping out the people arriving at the Apostolic Palace for private audiences with the pope.

He was, of course, flanked by the trusted Swiss Guards. And the procession was led by the Cardinal Camerlengo, as I said, but also by the other cardinals, as well as simple priests.

Now, the day began, of course, with a meeting known as the General Congregation, which is all the cardinals who are making their way here to Rome, are meeting regularly, beginning today, every day, until the conclave. And basically, this is a meeting mandatory for all the cardinals participating in the so-called conclave, which is a process of electing a new pope.

And in these meetings, they basically make decisions on ordinary or important matters which cannot be postponed. I know in particular, of course, organizing the funeral, the burial and the conclave itself. And at the end of a two-hour meeting this morning, we were told that the funeral of Pope John Paul II will begin, will happen on Friday morning at 10:00 a.m. local time here in Rome.

We do know that Pope John Paul II has not left any instructions about any specific places where he would want to be buried. There were some speculations, perhaps, that he could have left a letter behind asking to be buried in Poland. No such letter, no such instructions were left behind -- left behind. So according to tradition, the pope will be buried in the crypt underneath the St. Peter's Basilica.

BLITZER: Alessio, I'm going to interrupt you. President Bush is speaking about the passing of Pope John Paul II now at the White House. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... express our gratitude to the almighty for such a man. And, of course, we look forward to the majesty of celebrating such a significant human life.

One more.

BLITZER: Holding a news conference right now with the visiting president of Ukraine, President Yushchenko. We'll be monitoring that news conference for additional information.

Let's go back to Rome. Our Aaron Brown is on the scene as well.

Aaron, set the stage for us. What's it like to be there right now?

AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's -- at the risk of sounding disrespectful -- I certainly don't mean it that way -- we're in a kind of odd state of the in-between. What has happened, the passing of the pope on Saturday, the shock of that, though certainly it was not unexpected, the sorrow, the kind of intense sorrow that that generated in Rome and around the world has, in many respects, has taken place over the weekend. And now we're in a kind of in-between, as pilgrims arrive, as we prepare for Friday's funeral. And beyond that, we prepare for selecting the pope's successor.

And it's an opportunity, I think, for those of us who have been here to, at one measure, take a breath and step back. It's been a remarkable privilege to have reported such a historic event, and also to take a look at some of the issues that now present itself to the pope's successor, to some of the issues that face the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church in the United States faces one set of issues. For example, there's a push to be more progressive or more liberal, if you will, while the Catholic Church in some of its fastest-growing areas in Africa, and in Latin America, the push is in quite the opposite direction.

So it's an opportunity to share with viewers, I think, some of the challenges that the billion-plus Catholics in the world face as their leadership, in some respects, the last great monarchy in the world, the papacy and the Catholic hierarchy, gathers to not simply select the man who will lead it in going forward, but also to deal with the issues that it knows well that that man will have to face.

BLITZER: Aaron, we see these glorious images on television, but do they really do justice to what you see there in person? In other words, does the TV pictures that we see really convey the majesty of what's unfolding?

BROWN: Well, I said the other day, and I'll say it again, the television does a lot of wonderful things, but what it doesn't do is convey very well a sense of feeling. So we can show you, and we have proudly shown you, and will the majesty that unfolds. You'll be able to see the colors, if you will. What you can't experience unless you touch the ground, as we reporters say, is the intensity of the feeling of an event like this.

At the risk of, take my word for, it it's profound, it's unforgettable. You see it in people's eyes, in the most casual moments.

Now, the fact is Rome is also a city that went back to work today. The traffic coming in is the traffic that exists in Rome on a late afternoon rush hour. Horns honk, people yell at cops, and all the rest. But there is a kind of -- and this was particularly true, I thought, in that first 24-hour period -- a kind of stillness that seemed to embody the city and the souls of the city the television, for all its wonderful, glorious power, is incapable yet of projecting.

BLITZER: In looking at the faces of the pilgrims who have come, the faithful, Aaron, are they crying? Are they smiling? Are they hopeful? Or can you not just categorize them in one kind of description?

BROWN: Well, I wouldn't try. I wouldn't try.

I mean, to be honest, to some extent people don't come here with "pilgrim" label on their shirts. So you don't always know.

What I think you know is that what we are experiencing -- and this is true particularly among Catholics, but I think to a certain extent among non-Catholics -- is not some great tragedy. The pope lived a long, full, rich, important, productive, wonderful life. He died a dignified death at an age that was, I think, we would all say we would be -- hope to god that we live so long.

So it's not a great tragedy that you see in people. It is a great sense of sorrow, particularly among Catholics.

There was a Catholic leader who said the other day -- it's a line I'll never forget because I think for the first time as a non-Catholic I began to understand something. He said, "Today, we Catholics, today we are all orphans."

And so imagine the feeling, if you will, of losing a father. And I think you imagine well the feeling that Catholics in the city of Rome and Catholics, the billion-plus Catholics around the world, particularly the most devote of those million -- billion-plus Catholics must feel.

BLITZER: Aaron, I'm going to have you stand by.

To our viewers, I just want to update you. The pictures that you're seeing on the right part of the screen, that was the procession carrying the body of Pope John Paul II from the Apostolic Palace into St. Peter's Basilica just a little while ago. These are live pictures now. The Vatican inside that crowd, a huge crowd, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, already there.

Bill Hemmer is right in the middle of things. Bill, first of all, where are you?

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am in St. Peter's Square, Wolf. Just -- oh, I would say just a little somewhat south of this exact center of the square.

Wolf, I wanted to show you the crowds that have come out here. This is the main road that leads into St. Peter's Square. It goes back about a quarter to a half-mile behind me.

For the past 3.5 hours, Wolf, it has been nothing but a sea of humanity. All these people waiting for their chance, their opportunity to come into St. Peter's Square. And one would think, also, that a number of these people will get in line to pay their final respects to the body of Pope John Paul II.

Now, part of the reason why they're frozen, Wolf, is because when we waited for the procession to come into the square, is that the police here stopped everybody from moving. It was a sign of dignity and respect, and also a sign to take a moment and pause to think about what was happening in front of them.

And there were two -- there were really two waves of applause that came in here, Wolf. The first one was when the cardinals came with the body first. You heard a polite applause come across. But when the pope's body was brought up the steps, right before he entered St. Peter's Church, they rotated the body around, showed it to the crowd yet again, and then we heard the applause much louder the second time.

We have seen people here throughout day trying to get a better view. You can imagine it's just a huge area here in St. Peter's Square. And you see a lot of husbands trying to help their wives get a boost up to look over other people, you see some people climbing on top of the barricades to get a better view as well. And everybody seems like they have a camera to try and capture this moment, this moment in time, and this moment in history.

The crowds are moving again, and they will for several days now, about 4.5 as best we can tell. When the funeral comes around, Friday, the end of this week, it will be quite a scene and quite a moment.

The one thing that's difficult for us to know at this point, Wolf, is how many people will truly get the opportunity to pay their final respects to the pope. The public viewing begins tonight around at 9:00 local time in the evening, which is about 3:00 there in D.C.

It's just a bit past 6:00 in the evening now. So about three hours from now the official public viewing will get under way. And that will continue for 21 hours a day up until Friday morning. St. Peters, the church, will only close for three hours a night, from 2:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. All part of the idea to help as many people that want to see the body of Pope John Paul II and pay their final respects to give them that chance here in the Vatican -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Bill, is there any estimate how long these people are going to have to stand in line to get a glimpse of the pope?

HEMMER: No estimate at this point, Wolf. I can give you an idea about what people are up against out here, though, for those who get the opportunity ultimately.

I was given a chance earlier to attend a private viewing. And we were told it was private. We went there in the morning. And when we showed up, there were at least 5,000 people in line already in front of us. This was for the private viewing.

And over the weekend, too, so many people have come here to see this beautiful church. It is so massive, the largest in the world, St. Peters Basilica. And every day, on Saturday and on Sunday, and again today, there was the line that snaked through St. Peter's Square, several thousand people in line, just to get inside the church.

This was before the pontiff's body stood there lying in state. So you can imagine you're going to need an awful lot of patience. And it will take clearly several hours for those who want to have the opportunity.

But much of that will depend, Wolf, I think, on the numbers that come out here. And at this point, we can only say those numbers will be extraordinary. How large, we'll wait and see for an answer on that.

BLITZER: All right, Bill. Stand by.

Aaron Brown, I understand security must be quite intense. Two million people expected to move into Rome over the next few days. From your vantage point, what's it like?

BROWN: Well, security in the post-9/11 era, security everywhere in big events, is always extraordinarily intense. I'll be honest. Getting here today was a little more difficult than it had been because traffic was a little more difficult, and some roads have been -- some streets in a city where nothing quite moves in a straight line anyway, to be honest, some streets have been closed off.

But you don't -- you don't get a sense yet of suffocating security of the sort, for example, Wolf, that you'd be very familiar with in Washington if you just go back to the inauguration and how suffocating the security felt there. It may be that by Friday it will, in fact, feel that way. It doesn't now.

If I could just add one small thing to what Bill ably reported a moment ago. The decision to -- we don't presume to know how the cardinals think. But the decision to hold the funeral on Friday morning puts it at the outer edge of Church law.

And one of those things that Church law require that the funeral be held on the fourth to the sixth day. One of the things that that decision allows is the maximum number of people to come through to view the body of the pope.

Among the things the Church hierarchy is most aware of is that this man, the only pope that half of the world has ever known, touched more lives in a more direct way because of his travels than any pope ever and all popes combined. And so by putting the funeral off until the last possible day, if you will, the latest point that Church law allowed, the Church leaders, the cardinals have allowed the maximum number of people to come and participate in this final viewing.

There are many ways to pay the pope's last respects. And most Catholics will not be able to be here to do so. But the College of Cardinals and the Church officials who are organizing this have at least set this up in such a way so that as many people who can get here and who have the patience to wait through it all will have the opportunity.

BLITZER: Which makes an enormous amount sense, to stretch it out. So many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people would like to catch a glimpse of Pope John Paul II lying in rest in the basilica at St. Peters. It makes sense to stretch it out a little bit.

Aaron, there had been some earlier speculation that this pope might have left a note saying he wanted to be buried in his native Poland. I take it that has now been dismissed. He is going to be buried at the Vatican.

BROWN: It's clear from everything we know he's going to be buried at the Vatican, as the tradition of the Church does not require, but has been practiced, I think, in all but one case. And I may be wrong about that.

The people of Poland, I suspect, are not particularly happy with that. But I think they're at least accepting that these are the pope's wishes.

He was the pope of all Catholics in all of the world. And there's certain respect for the tradition of the Church, a Church that is perhaps more than any seeped in tradition. So while we would understand, because of the enormous personal pride that Poles take in this native son of theirs and all he accomplished, and one could understand why they would have wanted his final resting place to be back in Poland, in Krakow, where he was the archbishop, or in the town not far from there where he was born.

I suspect that after the momentary disappointment of that they, too, will accept that this long line of Church tradition that stretches back so many hundreds and hundreds of years needs to be honored as well.

BLITZER: Aaron, stand by. I want to bring in Chester Gillis. He's the chairman of the theology department at Georgetown University here in Washington. And Monsignor Kevin Irwin, he's professor of theology at Catholic University here in Washington as well.

Chester Gillis, I'll start with you. The pictures of that procession, who are those pallbearers that were bringing him to the basilica at St. Peter's?

CHESTER GILLIS, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, they're profession greeters form the Vatican who, as we heard in the commentary, the Vatican is a place of bustling activity all the time, with diplomats, world leaders and clerics coming to visit pope with regularity. These people would be the people in the Vatican who would take care of arrangements for people such as that.

And I'm sure all of them were close to the pope, physically close to the pope on a regular basis. And then they're called upon for this final duty to carry him to his resting place.

BLITZER: I can't imagine a higher honor, Monsignor Irwin, than to be a pallbearer for a pope, especially Pope John Paul II.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. And also followed the -- following the body were three people who were always in procession with him while he was alive, and that is his private secretary, Archbishop Dziwisz. In addition, there's the papal almoner, the one who gives the pope's charities to the world. And then last but not least, is the archbishop of the papal household, Archbishop James Harvey from Milwaukee.

They assisted him in life, and now they followed him in death.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, the point that Aaron Brown just made about stretching out this period where the pope can lie in rest in the basilica, it makes an enormous amount of sense. It's sort of like a slam dunk. Why would anyone even think that they should do it within four days when you could stretch it out into six days?

GILLIS: Well, it was up to their discretion. They can make a decision, any decision they wanted to make. But obviously this was the prudent decision.

And obviously, you know, the crush of humanity that will be coming into Rome to pay their respects to the pope. And wanting to give everyone, or as many people as possible, the opportunity that they themselves will have in a very personal manner for private viewing to the massive public from around the world who loved this pope, makes perfect sense. Perfect sense. Also, it gives time for world leaders to assemble for the funeral.

BLITZER: Would this be a decision, Chester Gillis, that the pope himself made? Because we know he spelled out what he wanted. Or would this be left to the cardinals who have now assembled?

GILLIS: No, this is left to the discretion of the cardinals always for this particular matter. The pope may have left instructions, but it seems he didn't leave specific instructions contrary to this. So they have the prerogative to make the decision to -- when the funeral will actually occur within the parameters of what Canon Law has established.

BLITZER: Every aspect of this procession, Monsignor Irwin, is perfectly detailed and spelled out how they can do it. There's not a whole lot of room for improvisation.

Explain some of the technical reasons, because the more I learn about this, the more logic there seems to be for everything that happens from the time the pope passes away and the time that there's a new pope who's elected.

IRWIN: It's very carefully structured simply because it is of the supreme, the greatest thing we do in terms of honoring the dead and honoring the pope as Catholics. And everything is structured so that everyone is on board, knows what's happening, so that the real energy can go into deep prayer that is structured by these rituals. Rituals being liturgy, and liturgy being the word meaning the people's prayer.

They're structured so that people can, in the best sense, immerse themselves in them and pray very, very deeply. And then the protocols about the election of a pope are very carefully done.

So the details they don't worry about. The College of Cardinals have a job to do, and the job is to pray and to discuss and to come up with the best candidate. The details have to be in place so the real work is done.

BLITZER: Are these cardinals, Chester Gillis, already thinking about the election of a new pope? Or would be that totally inappropriate until after the funeral and the conclave begins?

GILLIS: Well, I think publicly you won't hear them discuss potential candidates.

BLITZER: Publicly, they could be excommunicated, correct me if I'm wrong, if they do that.

GILLIS: Exactly. But to say have they been thinking about, it I'm sure that they are thinking about it, of course. And even preceding the pope's death with great respect for the pope, of course.

BLITZER: But are they amongst themselves talking about it? Is that appropriate?

GILLIS: They may be doing it, but in very private quarters over dinners or in meetings of two or three. Never in public, and probably less so now than after all the rituals are done. And then the intense kind of discussions about who might be the successor.

And many of them of course know each other, and they know their dispositions about where they might take the Church. So at least they have inklings of them from numbers of years of public speeches and writings. So they have some sense already of who might be a potential pope and who might not be.

BLITZER: You want to weigh in, Monsignor Irwin, on that -- on that thought?

IRWIN: I think that's absolutely correct. I mean, what happens is that, where twos and threes are gathered, there's discussions and there's reverential concern about where we are to go.

The very fact that there are between 15 and 20 days between the pope's death and the conclave is a time in the Church's wisdom to say we need to get to know each other better and to find out where we stand on issues. And there's no politicking in the sense of nominating speeches, but there's a good bit of energy because this is an extraordinarily burdensome decision they have to bear. And they don't want to do this just by themselves. And the best sense of collaboration has to take place.

BLITZER: Of the 117 cardinals under the age of 80 who will be eligible to vote, all but three of them -- correct me if I'm wrong, Chester Gillis -- were appointed by Pope John Paul II.

GILLIS: Yes. So they owe their allegiance to him for the very positions that they hold. But in addition to them, in these preliminary conversations, the other cardinals -- there are 183 cardinals in the Church, so there are a number of cardinals who are 80 years old or older. Those who are able-bodied will also be there, and they'll participate in discussions, these private discussions as well.

BLITZER: What's the theory, with all due respect, Monsignor Irwin? Because it seems to be age discrimination. There are a lot of people in their 80s who are still quite capable of making important decision. Who came up with the idea that if you're over 80, you can't vote for a new pope?

IRWIN: It was Pope Paul VI. And just as John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II left instructions tweaking the procedure about election.

Yes, today we would say that in terms of age discrimination, but Pope Paul was at a time -- was pope at a time when there was concern about the possibility of senility, dare I say that word. And therefore, someone voting without all of their faculties.

Now, in 1978, when there was -- there were two conclaves, Cardinal Sheehan, the retired cardinal from Baltimore, was in Rome, but could not vote, but mentally alert and sharp as a tack, as we might say. I expect the age is a way of getting around any kind of medical judgment whether you could or could not be mentally able to vote.

BLITZER: It's now the bottom of the hour. We're looking at this live picture, a beautiful picture of the Vatican. The body of Pope John Paul II has now been moved. It's lying in rest at St. Peter's Basilica, a moving transfer of that body from the Apostolic Palace to St. Peter's Basilica.

He is there right now. Within the next couple hours or so, the thousand will begin to walk by and pay their respects to this extraordinary pontiff. Only a few moments ago, the president of the United States, who will be attending the funeral Friday morning in the Vatican, spoke about this pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH: First, Laura and I are looking forward to leading a delegation to honor the holy father. He will go down in history as a -- he will show people that one man can make a difference in people's lives. He's a courageous person. He's a moral person. He was a godly person. And he's had huge influence, Steve, not only amongst for example young people in America, but around the world.

One of his great legacies will be the influence he had on the young. He spoke to the poor, he spoke to morality, and of course, he was a man of peace, and he didn't like -- he didn't like war, and I fully understood that, and I appreciated the conversations I had with the holy father on the subject. I remember the going to Castille Gandolfo. Laura and I were there, and I can remember him taking us out on the balcony of this fabulous palace, overlooking this magnificent lake and talking about his views of the world. It's a moment I will never forget during my presidency.

And so the world will miss him and it is -- you know, my great honor, on behalf of our country, to express our gratitude to the Almighty for such a man. And of course, we look forward to the majesty of celebrating such a significant human life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The president speaking only a few moments ago. He will lead the U.S. delegation to the funeral of Pope John Paul II Friday morning, 4:00 a.m. Eastern time, 10:00 a.m. local time in Rome. The president will be the first sitting president of the United States to attend the funeral of a pope.

Monsignor Irwin, this is a big deal. It says a lot about America and the Catholic Church.

IRWIN: It is a big deal, but this pope was a big deal, and this president knows that. And I think that their cooperation and their respect for each other is very, very palpable. But it is a great honor for our country in the sense that our president will be going, and it shows a great reference for the holy father and for the office that the papacy has become, almost larger than life under John Paul II.

BLITZER: Chris Burns is standing by in Krakow, Poland, the homeland of Pope John Paul II. First of all, Chris, are they disappointed that he will be buried at Vatican rather than at his native Poland?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, a snap unscientific poll outside the apostolic residence where the pope used to speak from the window and people now paying their respects, as they generally accept it, but there is a bit of debate. You couldn't really call it a battle over the pope's body, but there is a debate.

The mayor of Krakow says he should be buried here. At least his heart should be, according to Polish tradition. He says that this man is the greatest Pole who ever lived and should be buried in his home country. The head of the Wavel Cathedral here, where the kings of Poland are buried, says his heart should be buried there. He says it would be for us the most precious treasure. However, Cardinal Maharski (ph), who's on his way to Rome to elect the next pope pretty much said, no, the pope is going to be buried there and he is going to stay there.

But there is debate also if you think about blogging, on the main -- one of the biggest Web sites here in Poland, the bloggers are going back and forth on this. One saying he was great man, his heart should return to his land of birth, and the another saying the heart of John Paul II belongs to the world and should be buried at the Vatican. So the debate goes on.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Burns, we'll be getting back to you. Let me back Aaron Brown, who's been listening to this conversation. Aaron, for our viewers who are just tuning in right now, explain what has happened, What is happening right now and in the next couple hours, what we will see?

BROWN: Well, we -- the service has been held, the square is still mostly full, or more full than not. The pope's body has been moved to the basilica at St. Peter's, and within a couple of hours, I think 9:00 local time, so about two and a half hours from now, we will begin to see a scene which we will then watch. And in this time of mass media, which penetrates literally every corner of the globe, all citizens of the globe will watch as a stream of people, pilgrims, the most devout and the most hardy in many respects, will come to pay their last respects to John Paul. That will culminate on a service on Friday at 10:00 Eastern time back in the United States that you just talked about.

The president will attend, much of the world's -- many of the world's most powerful people will attend that. One of the things -- I've got a couple, a question and a half if I can, of you and your guests. One of these you may know, and your guests will have some thoughts. I wonder if as part of that delegation, the president's brother, Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, who is a convert to Catholicism, will be part of the delegation that comes here. That would be a great privilege for one brother to extend to another, I would think, and it will be a formidable delegation and I wonder if the governor of Florida will be a part of it.

And another question I had of your guests, when they were talking about the time to -- that is set aside to contemplate what the qualities must be of the next pope. If they think that one of the things that the college of cardinals must determine is whether they want a pope of some youth, let's say a pope in his 60s, early 60s, whose reign might last for many years, a quarter of a century as John Paul's did, or whether after such a long, powerful and important papacy, if they might seek someone older, whose reign will be shorter, to allow a kind of, a time of, I don't know, settling for lack of a better word, for the church, its hierarchy and its membership.

BLITZER: Those are good questions. I spoke within the past hour, Aaron, to a spokesman for Governor Jeb Bush of Florida who is, as you point out, a convert to Catholicism. His wife is a devout Catholic. He's going to be making a statement later this afternoon to the Florida media. Unclear whether he will be part of the presidential delegation. I'm assume if he wants to go, his brother would be more than happy to take him along. But it's unclear whether Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, will join President and Mrs. Bush on the trip to the Vatican.

On the issue that Aaron raises about the age of a new pope. Pope John II, Chester, was what? In his late 50s when he became -- he was 58 years old when he became pope. That seems like a pretty good age, if you want someone to serve for a long time.

GILLIS: It does seem like a pretty good age, if you want somebody to serve for a long time. But as Aaron suggested, maybe the church wants to digest the papacy of John Paul II and the richness of this and the length of it and the depth of it in the next papacy, which might make for a shorter one.

Also, when you think about having a 26-year papacy, just as an analogy, think if you had a president of the United States who was president for 26 years. That person puts such a firm mark on the society which he governs, and this pope has put such a firm mark on the church that maybe the cardinals will think that's a very long time, and that's a period in which you could have two or three popes, potentially, as you have in history, and you get diversity in the papacy, rather than getting into a single mode, even though it was one that was remarkable.

BLITZER: John Allen is our Vatican analyst. He's on the scene in Rome for us. John, you, I think accurately pointed out only yesterday that anyone who tries to speculate and guess about the next pope is either foolish or getting involved in pretty dangerous territory. You can't really predict what the cardinals are going to do.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, that's absolutely right, Wolf. I mean, for one thing, bear in mind, this is not like, you know, a secular political campaign, where you've got polls or campaign war chests to evaluate. I mean, we have none of those indicators. What we have are some historical patterns, upon which we can erect some educated guesswork. But that's really all it is.

Now I mean, it should be said, that if you look at last five papal elections. That is the election of Pious XII, then John XXXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul I, John Paul II, in about two of those occasions, a front-runner actually did win. That is in the election of Pious XII, many people thought Eugenio Pushelli (ph), who had been the secretary of state, might win. He did. In the election of Paul VI, many people thought that the Cardinal Montini (ph) who had been very much the right-hand man of Paul XII, of Pious XII rather, and a key Vatican figure to be elected, he did.

John XXIII and John Paul I were sort of middle of the tier, so to speak, candidates. But really the only bolt from the blue there was the election of Karol Wojtyla, John Paul II, because he broke the centuries of tradition of electing Italian popes.

So the moral of the story is being a front-runner doesn't mean nothing, but neither does it mean everything. Surprise is always possible.

BLITZER: The last time a pope passed away, Jimmy Carter was president of the United States, John, and he sent, what, his wife for one of the funerals, his mother for another of the funerals. He didn't go at that time. What was the thinking, based on your research?

ALLEN: Well, Wolf, I think the most important fact or is that in 1978, the United States and the Vatican did not have formal diplomatic relation, that happened only in 1984 under President Reagan, and this has been the first death a pope since that moment. So from a diplomatic point of view it was critical that these two states -- and let's remember, the Holy Sea is a sovereign state. It has relations, formal diplomatic relations, with 174 nations and international organizations. It was critically important for the two states to enter into formal relations before it would have been sort of diplomatically conceivable for a president of the United States to come.

I think we can add to that, that, you know, I personally suspect that whether or not that were the case, I cannot but believe that President George Bush, given his obvious affection and respect, and I think one can almost use the word awe of Pope John Paul II, wouldn't have wanted to strive mightily to be here.

BLITZER: The other president was John F. Kennedy, himself a Catholic, the first Catholic president of the United States who was in the White House when a pope passed away in 1963. What was the thinking then, based on your research, as far as that was concerned?

ALLEN: Well, you mean in terms of why Kennedy did not come to the funeral?

BLITZER: Right. Was it the same thing that Jimmy Carter had?

ALLEN: I think it's the same logic. That is the United States and the Vatican were not in diplomatic relations, and of course you remember, Wolf, that part of the politics in the 1960 election were that Kennedy had to demonstrate his independence to a certain extent from the Vatican. I mean, there was the famous speech in Houston which he indicated that he would not take orders from Rome if he were elected president of the United States. So I suspect there was probably a political calculus there as well.

BLITZER: All right, let's bring back Bill Hemmer. He's there near the Vatican, right outside the Vatican.

Bill, what's happening now?

HEMMER: Wolf, thanks. We are with this crowd of people, an enormous crowd of people, by the way.

Brendan (ph), come on over here with me a second. Now I will say, Wolf, the majority of them speak Italian, but there are a few folks who speak English, so we can spare you the translation, including this gentlemen.

What is your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mandalay Mutu (ph).

HEMMER: You came from where?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From India.

HEMMER: How long have you been waiting in line here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since 3:00.

HEMMER: 3:00 this afternoon? That was about four hours ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HEMMER: And how long are you willing to wait to pay your respects to pope John Paul II?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until I get the chance to pay the homage.

HEMMER: The way things are going, that may be a very long time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'll wait.

HEMMER: What did he mean to you, and why is it important for you to be here along with so many other people?

I feel it's great, and he's a man who worked for peace, and he's -- regardless of all the religion -- he's beyond the religion. There are so many people. They are not Catholics. They are ready to pay the homage, because he won the hearts of the people.

HEMMER: Are you Catholic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HEMMER: Earlier you were telling me about the saints in Heaven, and where you think he is. Give our viewers an idea what is running through your mind with regard to that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In his lifetime he has crowned so many saints, and he'll be happy to see the saints in Heaven right now.

HEMMER: Thank you, and good luck. It gets cold at night, you know. Are you ready for that? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm happy. He has suffered a lot. The people to bring over the peace, but this is a very simple thing for me.

HEMMER: Good luck tonight, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

HEMMER: All right. Wolf, as far as the eye can see, it's a bit difficult to show our viewers at home, but this crowd goes back almost a half mile, and this is now just beginning. This young man, he has a bottle of water here, because a short time ago, the Civil Defense Force -- I'll just give you an idea, Wolf, what's happening here, they're passing out water to those who need it, and then earlier asking about our location, we're at the very beginning of the walls of Vatican City. I mentioned the road that goes out. This is pretty much the main road that comes into St. Peter's Square. It's hard to see past these people, but I'll give you an idea, We're a pretty long way across St. Peter's Square up until the beginning and opening for the church. This will be the road all these people will travel.

And by the way, we spoke to a number of people through our Italian translator, Wolf, and to a person, these people in line over here, they all say they're willing to wait however long it takes to pay their final respects to pope John Paul II.

I mentioned it gets cold at night, and that has been a fact the past several days, and they will have a very long wait. But all of them tell us it is worth it and they'll wait here in St. Peter's Square -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I suspect, Bill, Friday morning 10:00 a.m. Rome time when the funeral actually begins, and presumably the opportunity to walk past Pope John Paul II's body will have ended, there will still be tens of thousands of disappointed pilgrims who will have made that trek to Rome who won't be able to walk past, but that's just my suspicion, given these long lines.

HEMMER: Well, you know, it's interesting in 1978, they actually extended, they extended the observation and the lying in state for another day because there were so many people had come here to Rome. There's more water being passed out here behind me, excuse me, Wolf. Whether that's a possibility or not, I really think at this point, when they picked Friday, that is day six, and Vatican law says between day four and six you must conduct this funeral, they went to the outer edge of that, in part, to allow people to observe and give enough people the opportunity to pay their final respects.

The other thing that is critical is the Vatican earlier today announced, and it seemed they said it with a sense of pride, that St. Peter's will stay open for almost the entire day and night, 21 hours in total, only closing between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. The entire time outside of that there will be pilgrims and mourners who come and pay their respects inside of St. Peter's Basilica.

BLITZER: All right, Bill, we'll be getting back to you. Bill Hemmer's on the scene for us, together with our terrific team of reporters, and producers, photographers, who are covering history this historic moment at the Vatican.

We'll take a quick break. More of our special coverage, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: These are live pictures of the Vatican. Pope John Paul II, his body is now lying in rest at St. Peter's Basilica. It's been moved from the Apostolic Palace, only within the past couple hours. A very somber but very moving ceremony. As the procession continued, within the next couple hours, average people have been standing in line for hours and for many more hours, they will be able to walk past the body of Pope John Paul II, utter a prayer, say their -- give their respects to this giant of the Catholic Church.

Monsignor Irwin is still with us. Kevin Irwin is the professor the theology at Catholic University here in Washington, D.C. Also Chester Gillis is the chairman of the theology department at Georgetown University. John Allen, our CNN Vatican analyst, is still with us, as well.

Let me begin with you, Monsignor Irwin. As people walk by the body of John Paul II, what are they supposed to do? Is this just anything what comes -- what they feel like doing? Or is there, according to the Catholic tradition, a prayer or something you're supposed to do?

IRWIN: Well, two things happen. One is the public prayer that we saw when the cardinals were gathered with the dignitaries inside St. Peter's. That's a structured prayer that would be said at anybody's wake, any Christian's wake, the same kind of prayers and readings. But when one follows -- when one processes by one's self, one says a prayer to one's self, Our Father, whatever one would want to say to oneself. There's nothing required and it's a poignant matter of personal relationship with the pope and with God at that moment.

BLITZER: Is there, Monsignor Irwin, something according to the religion that would prevent -- you heard some polish leaders saying maybe his heart could be removed. He could buried in the Vatican, but bury his heart in Poland. Is that -- would that be allowed?

IRWIN: It would be allowed, it has happened, and that's one of the particularities of Catholic burial rights of certain persons, that parts of it would go someplace else and we revere those parts of those bodies as called relics, and those relics are very much revered, could be in other places.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, that would be a highly unusual event, though, for a pope.

GILLIS: Well, actually, it isn't as unusual as you think. There is a church in Rome that's designated, where certain parts, could be hearts of several popes now reside independent of their bodies. So it's been a tradition. The medieval notion that the heart is the essence of the human person. In modernity we would think the brain...

BLITZER: So if that were to happen, on this occasion, you wouldn't be all that shocked?

GILLIS: No, well, I don't think it will happen in this occasion. It has not happened for a long time. But it has happened historically. It's not unprecedented, nor is it prohibited. But this kind of tussle over the body of the pope is a little bit indelicate at this moment, and I think I'm sure that the whole body will be buried at the Vatican, as most recent popes have been.

And it's also a symbol that this is the leader of the whole world of Catholics, not just the Poles. They certainly have a justifiable pride, but the prominence which he had was really associated with Rome and his role there.

BLITZER: John Allen is in Rome. Do we know if the pope actually left specific instructions on his burial?

ALLEN: Actually, Wolf, the information we have is that the pope did not leave any specific instructions on his burial and therefore, according to what has become Vatican custom -- roughly half of the popes -- and there, of course, John Paul was, of course, the 263rd successor of St. Peter and roughly half of that number are buried in the grotto below St. Peter's Basilica. Therefore, because the pope did not leave instructions to the contrary, that's where he's going to be entombed.

Bear in mind, Wolf, the logic for that, aside from the fact that it's a convenience place for devotion, is that St. Peter's Basilica was erected precisely on the spot where Saint Peter himself is believed to have been buried. And the bones of Peter, which were discovered during an archaeological excavation during the pontificate of Pious XII, are actually preserved in a plexiglass case under the main altar at St. Peter's Basilica. So that's the logic why so many successors of St. Peter would be buried in that spot.

BLITZER: Monsignor Irwin, what does it mean to you, as an American Catholic, that the president of the United States is going to be going to Rome for this funeral?

IRWIN: I can't help but feel a great sense of pride, a great sense of encouragement for the kinds of principles that this pope has stood for and that the -- our highest governance would consider going to this is an enormous compliment and an encouragement, as I say, to stay on the path of our principles that this man stood for.

BLITZER: Chester Gillis, you've been reading some of these Web sites, some of the blogs. There's some people in the United States who aren't happy that the president is going?

GILLIS: Yes, there are. I think that the kind of prominence that Roman Catholicism is getting, in the light of the pope's death, some others think why so much attention to this particular figure? Well, clearly, because he was a religious leader, but also he was a human leader, he was a political leader. This is a man who has touched human history and not just Catholics.

For Catholics, it happens to be a moment of great pride and a moment of great solemnity, especially American Catholics after the recent scandals with the priest abuse, sexual abuse crisis, in which the church was heavily tainted and criticized by many people. This is a chance for the church to show its best side and its goodness to humanity.

BLITZER: John Allen, we know that the wedding of Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles is being postponed a day so that Prince Charles can attend the funeral on Friday. I assume leaders from all over the world are making arrangements to fly in. Who else is coming, based on what you've heard?

ALLEN: Well, among other things, Wolf, earlier today, there were reports that the head of state in Syria, Bashir Assad, might be here, but the truth is that virtually every prime minister or president of significance from all points of the compass will be here. It is significant, of course, that President Assad and I'm certain other leaders from the Islamic world will be here. That, of course, is one of the real points of emphasis of John Paul's pontificate, outreach to Muslims.

I remember during the pope's trip to Azerbaijan, I was on the plane on the trip. There were all of 120 Catholics in Azerbaijan, Wolf, and I actually ran the math. It would have been four times less expensive to bring them to Rome than to bring the pope to Azerbaijan. But of course, the point was, he wanted to meet them where them where they were.

And I interviewed all these young Muslims who turned out for a papal mass to ask why they were there. And almost to a person, they gave essentially the same answer. This pope reached out to us, and we wanted to return the gesture, we wanted to be here in the spirit of friendship.

And it really will be interesting to see that not just the heads of state and the dignitaries from so-called Christian nations of the West, but from all over the world, who don't necessarily share the pope's philosophic or religious or moral outlook, but nevertheless recognize something they responded to in this man. Something about the universality of his appeal will be on display at that funeral.

BLITZER: John Allen, our Vatican analyst, joining us. Thank you, John, very much. Chester Gillis, want to thank you. Monsignor Kevin Irwin, thank you to both of you for helping us better understand what's happening right now.

I'll be back later today at 3:30 p.m. Eastern, together with Judy Woodruff for CNN's continuing coverage of today's events at the Vatican. Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Kyra Phillips and Betty Nguyen will be picking up our coverage right after a short break.

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