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Nancy Grace

Alleged Molestation Victim Testifies Against Michael Jackson; Pope John Paul II Remembered

Aired April 04, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the bomb has been dropped and detonated on day 25 in the Michael Jackson child sex case. Today, one of his first known alleged victims takes the stand, describes tickling turned to molestation by Michael Jackson. And tonight, the alleged 1993 molestation victim`s uncle speaks out about the case that cost Michael Jackson $20 million.
The world grieves the death of Pope John Paul II as the Vatican steels itself for the Pope`s funeral this Friday morning. Over 100 cardinals converge on Vatican City today, the next leader of the Catholic world.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Monday night.

Over a billion Catholics worldwide -- eyes trained on the Vatican, where Pope John Paul II now lays in state in St. Peter`s Basilica. More than two million people -- repeat, two million people, not all Catholics -- traveling to Rome to pay final respects to Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla.

Tonight, in New York, from St. Joseph`s Seminary, Father Lorenzo Albacete; in Washington, Father David O`Connell of Catholic University.

But first, to Rome, and Christian Science Monitor correspondent, Peter Ford.

Peter, welcome. Please tell us what`s going on there.

PETER FORD, CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR: Well, as you can see, and certainly here, we have tens of thousands of people queuing. It`s now 2 o`clock in the morning. There must be at least 50,000 people still waiting in line patiently to file past John Paul II`s body. There`s been a line this long for the last six or seven hours. And I wouldn`t be surprised if there`s a line this long for the next three or four days. I don`t think it will be surprising if there are two million people by the time he is finally put in his coffin.

GRACE: Peter Ford, as you said it`s about 2:00 a.m. there in the Vatican City. We are showing you a live shot of Pope John Paul II lying in state, the leader of the Catholic world. Peter, how many cardinals are about to converge on the holy city there?

FORD: Well, most of them are already here, although some Americans have not yet left. When they`re all here, there will be about 140 of them, 150. But only 117 will actually go into the conclave to choose the next pope, because under the rules, only cardinals under the age of 80 are allowed to vote.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me, Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete.

Father, you were personal friends with Karol Wojtyla.

MONSIGNOR LORENZO ALBACETE, ST. JOSEPH`S SEMINARY: Yes, I was privileged to meet him before he was Pope.

GRACE: You know, so many of us have only seen him from afar. Catholics and non-Catholics alike have come to respect him. Could you tell us a story about him?

ALBACETE: I will tell you the story about what I`m doing tonight. About a year or so ago, people were already preparing. It was obvious he was ill. And the last chance I had to see him, I said to him that I had been asked by CNN to come on television when he died. And I kind of felt guilty about it. And he looked at me...

GRACE: He wasn`t dead yet, and you had asked to come talk about his death.

ALBACETE: Well, everybody has been preparing. And so he looked at me intensely. And I said, "I feel guilty." He said, "No, all right." He said, "I want to know, why are they sure that I am dying first?" And then I said, "Do you know something I don`t know?" And he said, "No, no. It`s just that." And I said, "Well, let`s put it this way. If I die first, will you go on CNN and say nice things about me?" Well, he died first. I am now on CNN saying nice things about him.

GRACE: Well, apparently, Father, he had it from a good source that he would go first.

ALBACETE: Oh, I think so, yes.

GRACE: Could you tell me about his salad-making?

ALBACETE: He was very proud of this salad. The week I met him -- I was with him a week before he became Pope. And he was nowhere near -- it was a year later that he became Pope. There were a number of times when he had to prepare our own meals.

And I cannot even fry an egg. So the discussion began about what he could do, what I could do. And he said his strong point was this salad. He knew how to do this powerful salad, Polish salad dressing. And then it became a great theme. Well, years later, when he was Pope and I had the privilege of having lunch with him, he prepared, he unveiled his salad dressing.

GRACE: How was it?

ALBACETE: It was the worst thing I`ve ever eaten in my entire life.

GRACE: Did you tell the Holy Father that...

ALBACETE: No, no. It would have broken his heart.

GRACE: ... did not tell him about his stinky salad?

OK. I`m going to go to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. He`s professor of theology at Catholic University.

But before I do, back to Peter Ford, Christian Science Monitor correspondent. Peter, we are showing the viewers a live shot of Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, lying in state. I see that people are filing by. How many people are estimated to view the Pope?

FORD: Sorry, how many people are estimated?

GRACE: Yes.

FORD: Well, as I say, I think there are probably a good 50,000 in the street outside the Basilica at the moment. I would think by the end of the night, probably 200,000 may have gone past, if not more. And he`s expected to lie in state for four days.

Estimates of two million probably would not be exaggerated. It`s really quite astonishing to see so many people here at such a late hour. These are ordinary people, mostly ordinary Romans. They have to go to work tomorrow morning.

I talked to them. I said, "You know, what are you doing here? How long are you going to wait?" And many of them said to me, "We`ll wait as long as it takes."

Now, officially the doors behind me to St. Peter`s basilica were due to close at 2 o`clock. From 2:00 until 5:00, no one was going to be allowed in. It doesn`t look like the authorities dared to close the doors because they`d have a riot on their hands if they did, although the crowd is very peaceful, very quiet at the moment.

GRACE: Let me go to Father David O`Connell with Catholic University.

Father, thank you for being with us. You know, Pope John Paul II actually led the church during a very controversial time, controversy over homosexuality, over women`s rights in the Church, over birth control. He`s leaving a legacy. My understanding is they are called John Paul`s army. Explain.

DAVID O`CONNELL, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: I`m not quite sure what your reference is to.

GRACE: The young seminarians that consider themselves John Paul`s soldiers.

O`CONNELL: Oh, I see. Well, you have to realize that for most of these young men in the seminary, this is the only Pope that they`ve ever known. And in large respect -- and it`s not just confined to seminaries -- but I find it on the Catholic University campus here in Washington -- many of our young people, they identify themselves, they identify their practice and their Catholic identity with this Holy Father, with Pope John Paul II.

GRACE: To Monsignor Kevin Irwin, explain to us how the next pope is going to be chosen.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: He`ll be chosen by the 117 electors voting in the Sistine Chapel. There will be no nominating speeches. There will be no lobbying. There will be a good bit of discussion among those cardinals.

And they will begin voting in the afternoon. And they`ll take two ballots, and each ballot requires the cardinal to write a name on a piece of paper and to take that up to probably a large chalice in the Sistine Chapel, drop that in, and pray that the electors will do their job. And eventually, after several ballots perhaps -- we don`t know how many -- there will be a new Pope.

GRACE: Now, isn`t it correct, Monsignor, that the cardinals are not allowed to leave until they come up with a pope? And that under John Paul II`s reign, it was determined that after a certain point in time, the new pope could be elected by a simple majority?

IRWIN: That`s correct. And that`s after about, I think, three full days of voting, they can take a day off to pray and to discuss, and then after that, they can come back and determine a simple majority. So that`s a possibility under the new rules that this Pope has put in place.

GRACE: To Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete. Father, before his death, the Pope asked to be read the story of the third hour. What was that?

ALBACETE: The third hour?

GRACE: I believe about Christ`s crucifixion when he gave up his life.

ALBACETE: Yes, he was following the prayer of the Way of the Cross because he was aware that this was the moment, the supreme moment of his life, the moment that would define who he was. And it is the moment of death.

And that, for him, it was an embrace. It was a way of participating in Christ`s death. And he was walking, walking this last leg with Christ living in him. But this is Easter. So this is -- he was walking towards death in the company of a risen Christ, as his faith tells him and tells us.

GRACE: You know, Father, the thing that -- of all of his travels, of naming more saints than any other pope ever, the thing that has stayed with me in my mind and heart regarding John Paul II is that he forgave his assassin, the man that tried to kill him. He went and sought him out in jail and loved him.

ALBACETE: Well, then you are in the right line of his desire, because you notice that his last official statement that was read yesterday was that, if anything is going to save us, humankind, it is mercy. And that is forgiveness.

GRACE: And Father, in my line of business, analyzing violent crimes, I will certainly keep that in mind. Thank you, Father.

ALBACETE: Thank you very much. Thank you.

GRACE: We will continue to bring you the latest regarding the election of the new pope to lead the Catholic world.

When we come back, like every good trial lawyer, as difficult as it is to do, we will open a new trial file of Michael Jackson. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In 1993, Michael Jackson settled a civil case with an alleged child molestation victim to the tune of $20 million-plus. Cha-ching!

Tonight, in L.A., the alleged victim`s uncle, Raymond Chandler, speaking out on a day of all days when another young boy has landed on the witness stand.

But first to Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent joining us, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Welcome back. Dig in. What`s the latest, friend?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, this was an amazing day for the prosecution. This is perhaps the best day that the prosecution has seen.

This young man, 24-years-old, gets on the stand and talks about three times that he says Michael Jackson molested him, once when he was seven, eight, and then ten. And he says all three incidents began with tickling. And as he started to talk about the third, the most serious incident, he became very emotional.

And he choked up. And he said, "You know, I had to go through a lot of counseling to get through this." And then he said, "He was tickling me." And then he literally broke down and said, "So much harder than I thought it would be."

And he put a towel over his face. He took a few seconds to compose himself. And then he said Michael Jackson proceeded to touch him under his shorts. The prosecutor asked him, was it your penis or your testicles? And he said, "I think it was option two." And then the prosecutor ultimately asked him, "Who did you tell first?" And this was perhaps the most emotional moment when he said, "Probably God."

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, this alleged victim was how old at the time of the alleged molestation? Seven, eight, and ten...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Seven, eight, and ten. So this began approximately 17 years ago. But it could have been yesterday based on the emotions that he displayed in court. I mean, either he`s an Academy Award-winning actor or the defense has some real problems here.

GRACE: And you know what? Jane Velez-Mitchell, let`s get real, all right? Because the reality is that this witness on the stand is a 24-year- old young man, scrubbed in sunshine. He`s a religious youth minister, newlywed, got that wedding band shining on his left hand. You can tell it`s practically brand new. Good luck cross-examining this guy -- Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he`s squeaky clean. And he exuded sort of a goody-two shoes atmosphere, a mama`s boy, almost, kept bragging about what a great housekeeper his mother was. And of course, he`s a former youth pastor, as you mentioned. He`s working in a mentoring program now, an anti-truancy program.

I assure you, if the defense had something on him, they would use it. They didn`t. In fact, Tom Mesereau, a brilliant attorney as we all know, seemed to have his hands tied behind his back a little bit today because of the emotion. And also the -- he doesn`t seem to have anything on this young man.

GRACE: Jim Moret, what was the jury -- oh, everybody, Jim Moret is with us, senior correspondent with "Inside Edition."

Jim Moret, what was the jury response to this young man, 24-years-old, recounting what he says happened ages seven, eight, and nine?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": I think that the jury`s response was frankly the same as all of us in the courtroom. And those in the listening room. We were stunned.

Nancy, this witness was more compelling than the young accuser who survived cancer. That`s how powerful this witness was. He needed Kleenex at one point. He needed to take a break. Even asked the judge, "May I just take a moment? This is harder than I thought it would be."

And he said something that was very powerful. He said he doesn`t even think his own mom knows all of the details that he was about to give in the stand. And it was really difficult to watch this witness.

GRACE: To Raymond Chandler, he is the uncle of the previous accuser, a young boy that cost Michael Jackson over $20 million.

Raymond Chandler, I`ve been wondering all day how you are going to react to the testimony from the now 24-year-old accuser. Does it ring a bell, Raymond?

RAYMOND CHANDLER, UNCLE OF MICHAEL JACKSON`S ACCUSER: Well, it rings a bell in the sense that both my nephew and this young man were molested. You know, my nephew, in his statement to the authorities, his relationship of course with Michael Jackson was much longer, it lasted many, many months, slept in the same bed with Michael conservatively 50 or 60 nights, recounted about 10 to 15 incidents of masturbation and about that many of Michael performing oral sex on him.

So you know, this testimony wasn`t surprising. But then again, I`m glad the boy had the courage to come forward and do it.

GRACE: Well, why won`t your nephew come forward, for Pete`s sake?

CHANDLER: You`re preaching to the choir here, Nancy. I really wish he would.

You know what? What the family went through back then with the bomb threats and the fans trying to get into the house and coming to the place of business and dead animals with their heads cut off, I think in his mind, the last thing he wants to be is the Michael Jackson kid.

GRACE: You know what? I didn`t know about death threats and dead animals with their heads chopped off.

With me is Raymond Chandler. He is the uncle of the `93 accuser, the young boy that claimed Jackson molested him, as well.

Before we go to break, Dusty, come over here a sec, if you can. If you don`t believe all this, I`ve got with me, a, the sworn affidavit -- thank you, dear -- the sworn affidavit here of the `93 accuser. It describes masturbation by Michael Jackson, nipple twisting, tongue kissing, you name it.

And the whole grooming process, in other words, Jackson allegedly grooming the boy to become a child molestation victim. And here, the redacted, which means names and numbers kept out, agreement where the young boy in `93 got over $20 million from Michael Jackson. I don`t know if that number is going to come into court or not.

We are live in Santa Maria, California, bringing you the latest in the Michael Jackson child molestation case. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: We have guest units, but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. They never want to stay in the guest room. And I have never invited them in my room. They always just want to stay with me. They say, "Can I stay with you tonight?" I go, "If it`s OK with your parents, yes, you can."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good Lord in heaven. That`s from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury. Also a response, a rebuttal documentary, made by a Jackson staffer was also shown to the jury. So it`s video versus video, until now.

Now, other accusers, the defense`s worst nightmare, other little boys filing into court, saying Jackson molested them, as well.

Elizabeth, you got ahead of me and you threw up that graph.

Dusty, if you could show again, what I`ve got here is a sworn affidavit by the 1993 accuser.

Raymond chandler is his uncle. And he`s not coming to court, is he, Raymond?

CHANDLER: No, it`s my understanding that he`s not coming to court.

GRACE: Have you tried -- did you ever talk to him about coming to court?

CHANDLER: Well, I can`t get to him directly. I wish I could. But I`m sure many people have. And you know, again, I think his reasoning is just -- he`s just sick of the whole thing, doesn`t want any part of it, leave me alone, let me live my life.

GRACE: Raymond, Elizabeth, throw up this graph from this sworn affidavit from the `93 accuser. "Michael Jackson had me suck one nipple, twist the other nipple, while Jackson masturbated. On one occasion when Jackson and I were in bed together" -- is there more to that, Elizabeth? Yes, "Jackson grabbed my buttocks and kissed me while he put his tongue in my ear. I told him I didn`t like that. And Michael Jackson started to cry."

Yes. Raymond Chandler, if that is true -- how old is your nephew now?

CHANDLER: He`s about 25.

GRACE: OK. He`s a man.

CHANDLER: Right.

GRACE: He needs to come into court and tell this jury the truth.

CHANDLER: I agree, absolutely. I do.

GRACE: OK, tell me why you think -- if he`s sick of it, I got sick reading this affidavit, OK? So I`m sure he is sick of it. But why not speak up on behalf of other little boys? This current accuser got trashed, ripped up on cross-exam, and your nephew could hold the key to stopping that.

CHANDLER: I agree with you. He could hold the key to stopping it.

As you know, I`ve written a book, a not-for-profit book called, "All That Glitters: The Crime and the Cover-Up," in which I outlined from the first day my nephew met Michael Jackson how the seduction took place.

It`s not just the sex acts themselves. I mean, that is bad. But it`s actually taking over these children`s personalities, their souls, getting them away from their parents, gaining control of them, like pedophiles do. Using their trust, the relationship of trust, to gain the confidence of these children.

I mean, take away the fame and the fortune. And Michael Jackson`s no different than any other pedophile in the way he operates. And I hope that the jury understands that and they see that. But you know, I mean, my nephew could tell that story. He could tell the entire story. But he`s not going to be there.

GRACE: When we get back, we`ll speak with Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. The last time I brought this up to her she announced that some children lie. Are they all lying?

Quick break. But as we go to break, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Armando Manzo, 24-year-old father of three young boys, shot and killed, Stockton, California, January 2003. Take a look. Any info on Armando Manzo, call a toll-free number, 888-813-8389. Could be a reward involved. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARON COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Sharon Collins. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

President Bush will be among the dozens of world leaders attending Pope John Paul II`s funeral set for Friday morning. Until then, the pontiff`s body will lie in state at St. Peter`s Basilica.

A White House welcome for Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko. President Bush met with the newly elected Ukraine leader today and promised to help the country in its transition to democracy. Mr. Bush avowed to assist Ukraine in gaining membership to the World Trade Organization and in lifting trade restrictions.

And it will be a Saturday royal wedding instead of a Friday one. Prince Charles and Camilla Parker-Bowles are postponing their wedding for a day because of the Pope`s funeral. Now, the prince will represent the royal family at the Pope`s funeral in Rome. Parker-Bowles will not attend.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sharon Collins. Back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Peter Pan to me represents something that`s very special in my heart. You know, it represents youth, childhood, never growing up, magic, flying. And to me, I just have never, ever grown out of loving that or thinking that is very special.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s magic, all right. Jackson claims that all of his dance moves inspired by children. I don`t know if this is state`s exhibit number 1 or not, but we`ll see I`m sure the defense will fight it. That bite was from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury.

With us, a very special guest, the uncle of the `93 accuser, Raymond Chandler is with us.

Raymond, when you heard the testimony today regarding yet another accuser, now grown up, now 24-years-old, are they physically similar? Did the testimony from this young man ring a bell? Was it an echo of your little nephew?

CHANDLER: Well, it was an echo in the sense -- only in the sense of the fact that, you know, he was an adult gaining the trust of a child to molest him. But you know, my nephew`s relationship went on much, much longer than this one.

But I want to comment, if I might, Nancy, about the children lying. You know, go back to 1993. Michael Jackson was the most -- one of the most famous, if not the most famous and powerful, human beings on the planet. He had the best lawyers money can buy, private investigators working full- time for him. A cadre of P.R. professionals selling his image all over the world.

And you think a middle-class family could go in and make an accusation in a courtroom with absolutely no evidence because it was all a lie and they didn`t have any evidence? Mr. Mesereau has told the world, "Oh, Michael got bad advice back then."

What Mr. Mesereau has conveniently neglected to tell everyone, that the advice Michael Jackson got was from the late Johnnie Cochran -- may he rest in peace -- and Mr. Cochran was a great lawyer. And he was not going to advise Michael Jackson to settle the case if there was no evidence. There was a mountain of evidence collected. It`s all in my book, if people want to know what it is.

GRACE: Well, Raymond, question, very quickly, couldn`t your nephew identify Jackson`s penis and markings, like freckles or discolorations or something?

CHANDLER: That was the straw that broke the camel`s back. That`s why Johnnie Cochran...

GRACE: So, I take it that`s a yes.

CHANDLER: ... called and said, "Let`s settle." The answer is yes.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord.

CHANDLER: Very distinguishing marks in very private areas that you wouldn`t see changing into a bathing suit, yes.

GRACE: OK, you know what?

Let me confront the young -- emphasis on young -- lady, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. When I talked to you about the Jackson case, your immediate response was, "You know, a lot of kids make things up."

OK, you`re telling me the `93 kid made it up, Raymond Chandler`s nephew, the current accuser made it up, and the kid on the stand today?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, I actually have perhaps a unique perspective on this.

GRACE: Somebody knows the backstroke.

LUDWIG: I don`t think the 1993 case was a lie. I actually think that there was merit to that case. And perhaps there was merit to the case of the boy who was on the stand today. That does not mean that this particular family is being honest about what happened.

And here`s the big question: We don`t know if what happened -- if what they say actually did happen. There are kids who lie. It is rare. It tends to happen in divorce cases. It tends to happen in cases where...

GRACE: Well, hold on. This isn`t a divorce case.

LUDWIG: No, I understand that. But what did this child call Michael Jackson?

GRACE: Daddy.

LUDWIG: Daddy Michael. So it`s very possible that this child experienced Michael as a father, or paternal-like. And the mother may have had fantasies that Michael would have come in, saved the family, maybe even be her good husband, and something about the split got experienced like another divorce.

So I think there`s something unique about this case that just does not ring true to me, or there`s a lot of questions for me. However, when I hear about the 1993 case, I think it happened.

GRACE: Let me go to Anne Bremner, Seattle lawyer standing by. She`s been in the courtroom all day.

How did this accuser come across? He`s now 24-years-old, recounting molestation ages seven, eight, and nine by Michael Jackson.

ANNE BREMNER, LAWYER: Nancy, never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat. Mesereau got up today and did a masterful job in cross- examining this accuser.

And three really important things. One was money, money, it`s about the money. Remember, this settled after the `93 settlement, which was huge and all over the news.

But the second thing is, molested but really tickled, he said, when he was seven, and then a year went by, when he was eight, then two years went by, and then when he was ten. Not the pattern of a pedophile, you know, that Michael Jackson, if he`s a pedophile, wouldn`t be waiting those extreme lengths of time.

And then the third thing was is that he denied that anything happened in the beginning and told the police they were pushing him. And then, when Mr. Sneddon was involved, too, the Javier in "Les Miserables," presumably as portrayed by the defense, then he said something happened.

So I don`t know if he came across the end of the day the way that he`s being portrayed right now.

GRACE: Anne, Anne, yes, no, did the jury hear the amount of the settlement?

BREMNER: No.

GRACE: Let me go to Joe Episcopo, defense attorney out of Tampa, Florida.

Joe Episcopo, you know, they don`t teach you in law school the class called "Sit Down and Shut Up," unfortunately. And I think Mesereau should make it short and sweet with all of these prior victims`, cross-exam or eyewitnesses. What do you think?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and you know what, I agree with that. And I think that he`s got an excellent argument he can make in closing.

First of all, the other four boys are not going to testify. And all that information you put out is not going to be heard by the jury.

But getting back to today`s witness, I think a jury can see the fundamental unfairness. This kid`s talking about instances from 1988, 17 years ago. That evidence predates the law of evidence that allows it in. It`s fundamentally unfair. And the jury can be persuaded that, look, this thing happened 17 years ago.

But what about what we had in court today? We had a chance to cross- examine the present accuser. And look what happens when we get to do that. We didn`t get to do that in 1988. We didn`t get to talk to anybody. There was no trial, no litigation. Therefore, forget what happened in `88. What happened in 2003? That`s what they`ve got to decide, and I think they can be persuaded that he`s still not guilty.

GRACE: OK, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Joe Episcopo said we will not hear from the other alleged victims. That`s true. But we will hear from eyewitnesses that claim they observed Michael Jackson molest the other victims. And the evidence -- let`s see, this evidence was when the kid was seven, eight, and nine. He`s 24 now. So it`s not all 17 years ago.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I think this is where the prosecution could run into some trouble. This was a perfect witness, short and sweet. Move on.

Because if you get this collection of disgruntled former employees and people who have sold their stories to the tabloids, et cetera, on the stand to say, "I saw Michael Jackson do this," you could run into trouble.

All these people have tons of baggage. On top of that, some of the kids that they`re talking about have said nothing happened. For example, the famous child star who`s been involved in this has said repeatedly nothing happened.

So I think this is a murky area. I think the prosecution would be well advised to make this short and sweet. They`ve made their point. Move on.

GRACE: Very quickly, Jane Velez-Mitchell, how did the cross go on this young man today, 24-year-old youth adviser.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I respect Anne`s opinion very much. I would have to say, while I totally agree Tom Mesereau is a brilliant attorney, I felt that he had to sort of hold his punches, because he may not have anticipated -- who could? -- that this boy would be so emotional.

So he`s probably loaded to just really fight this kid. And all of a sudden, all this emotion comes up, so he can`t do it because it looks like he`s beating up on somebody who`s a victim who`s suffered horribly. So I think his hands were kind of tied.

Now, he did start talking about the fact that this boy`s mother, the housekeeper who used to work at Neverland, reportedly sold her story to "Hard Copy" for $20,000. But that`s not the boy`s fault. And the boy said he just found out about that a couple of days ago.

So you can`t really blame him. So I didn`t think the cross examination was that effective today.

GRACE: As we go to break, I want to show you another graph out of the 1993 accuser`s sworn affidavit: "Jackson then masturbated in front of me, told me that when I was ready he would do it for me. While we were in bed, Jackson put his hand underneath my underpants, masturbated me to a climax. Jackson masturbated me many times, both with his hand and with his mouth."

That accuser`s uncle is with us tonight. I don`t know why he won`t come forward to this jury. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I`d like to thank the fans around the world for your love and support from every corner of the Earth. I love the community of Santa Maria very much. It`s my community. My home is in this community. I will always love this community from the bottom of my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

We are live in Santa Maria, California, and the latest in the Michael Jackson sex case.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jane, was the cross-examination completed today?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it wasn`t. And absolutely we could see very powerful cross tomorrow when Tom Mesereau has an evening to think about how he wants to proceed. Or there could be some surprises. But I do think that this is going to have a lasting impression on the jury.

GRACE: Well, also with us is Jim Moret, senior correspondent with "Inside Edition." He`s there at the courthouse. He`s also a lawyer.

Jim Moret, that is a huge bonus to a lawyer when they stop at the end of the day in the middle of cross and they can come back the next day and resume cross. They`ve got overnight to think about it, to plan it, and to speak with their colleagues. What do you expect tomorrow, Jim?

MORET: Well, Tom Mesereau is a master at that. I have to tell you, because he is great at drawing things out. And he stops when he wants to stop.

I think this is a tough witness for him. This is a very difficult witness. You know, Nancy, one moment I was able to see the witness at a break. And he was looking at the jurors, trying to get a sense of what they were feeling.

And I kept thinking about, if there is an acquittal in this case, you know, this witness was so brave to come forward, is he going to blame himself that he didn`t believe me? That`s a thought that came over me.

And I`m sure as a former prosecutor you must think that same thing. You look at a witness, and you bring them forward, who didn`t have to testify. And you look at Raymond Chandler`s nephew, and he`s apparently reluctant to testify because he`s afraid of coming into this mess.

GRACE: Well, there are a lot of reasons why he wouldn`t testify. I hope for justice, I don`t like witnesses sitting back, counting their money.

Let me quickly go to Robi Ludwig, a psychotherapist here in New York. There are reasons why a molestation victim may not come forward in front of a jury. What?

LUDWIG: Because they don`t want to be re-victimized in the trial. And that`s exactly what happens. These are people who were raped, who were sexually assaulted. And then when they`re in the court of law, instead of assuming that they`re telling the truth, you have the defense attorney who is going to cross-examine them.

And if it`s still very raw and painful for them, it`s going to feel like they`re being re-victimized, re-raped. And if they don`t have the psychological constitution to deal with that, it could be very painful and traumatizing.

GRACE: With us tonight, the uncle of the `93 Michael Jackson accuser, the alleged victim who took a $20 million-plus settlement.

Raymond Chandler, is anybody from your family going to testify in this case?

CHANDLER: Well, I`m pretty certain that my nephew`s mother, my ex- sister-in-law, will be testifying. And I guarantee you she will have some very interesting stories to tell.

GRACE: What do you think her testimony will be?

CHANDLER: Well, for one thing, she will place her son in a bedroom with Michael Jackson, conservatively 50 or 60 nights, probably more, in his own home, in his own bedroom, for 30 nights. And I saw that bed. It`s not a very big bed. And all over the world, hotel rooms all over the world, where Michael took them traveling. She will also testify, I believe, about seeing Michael in some inappropriate behavior with another little boy that she saw.

GRACE: What type of inappropriate behavior?

CHANDLER: Well, a boy sitting on Michael`s lap. Michael kissing around his necks and cheek, and sort of caressing him in a very overtly sensual manner.

GRACE: Speaking of inappropriate behavior, Elizabeth, more from the `93 accuser`s sworn affidavit: "The next step, Jackson put his tongue in my mouth. I told him I didn`t like it. Jackson started crying and said there was nothing wrong with it."

OK, back to Raymond Chandler, the `93 accuser`s uncle. Did you say 50 to 60 times your nephew was in bed with Jackson and the mother knew it?

CHANDLER: Absolutely, every night. That was a...

GRACE: Why? Didn`t she -- didn`t it, ding, ding, ding? It`s not normal to have a little boy in bed with a 40-year-old man?

CHANDLER: Well, interestingly enough, the first time Michael slept -- my nephew slept in bed with Michael, they were in a hotel suite in Las Vegas. The mother and the little sister went to sleep. Michael played "The Exorcist" for him. The boy was scared. Michael suggested that he spend the night in his room. They did.

GRACE: Played "The Exorcist"? How old was your nephew?

CHANDLER: 13.

GRACE: I can`t even watch "The Exorcist."

CHANDLER: Well, yes, and I think we have testimony or we`re going to hear testimony about Michael playing scary movies for other boys. But the mother admonished him. When she found out the next morning that he had slept in Michael`s room, she admonished him.

And when the boy told Michael -- told his mother, excuse me, the mother came to Michael -- Michael came to the mother. He cried. He broke down. He said, "Don`t put barricades in the relationship. It`s all about love and trust." He gave her a very expensive piece of jewelry.

And according to my nephew`s testimony, that was the last his mother ever said of it. And he slept with Michael Jackson in bed every night after that. The relationship lasted -- this was February. It lasted until June or July.

And so, you know, the mother will say, well, when they went behind those doors, I didn`t know what was going on. I didn`t hear anything. I didn`t see anything. I trusted him.

GRACE: Oh, the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Joe Episcopo, this is disgusting. Look, take off your defense hat just a second, Joe. You`re a friend. Put on your dad hat. I know your daughter. This is very upsetting.

EPISCOPO: I know, but it`s not what he`s charged with. Those are old instances, and that witness is not coming forward.

GRACE: Joe, Joe, Joe, you know a pedophile can`t be cured. And like all of us, people make the same mistake. We do the same thing over and over. A pedophile is going to do the same thing again.

EPISCOPO: But you can`t prove someone guilty of a crime in 2003 from facts from 1988. It`s fundamentally unfair. It`s unconstitutional.

GRACE: Well, guess what, Joe? The California Assembly, as most legislatures across the country, disagrees with you when it comes to similar transaction. But I`ll give you a chance to fight back when we get back from break.

EPISCOPO: Don`t forget about the Ninth Circuit.

GRACE: I haven`t forgotten that nut cake yet, the Ninth Circuit.

Quick break, everyone. But to "Trial Tracking": In 2002, Indiana state trooper David Camm, convicted of murdering his wife and two children, overturned when a trial judge decided testimony about his affairs tainted the case. Prosecutors set to try him again, but this time, the alleged accomplice also on trial. Prosecutors say the accomplice provided the murder weapon and witnessed the murders.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back, and remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Let me quickly go to the uncle of the 1993 Michael Jackson accuser. How is your nephew with the current allegations of yet more child molestation on Jackson`s part?

CHANDLER: Well, I haven`t actually talked to him about it. But you know, I`m sure he`s -- because obviously he`s not testifying. And he just doesn`t want to get involved in it. So I`m sure his feeling is, "Leave me out of it."

GRACE: Is he in the country?

CHANDLER: I`m not sure. Last I heard, he wasn`t. But there are conflicting reports. So I can`t say for sure.

GRACE: Very quickly to Anne Bremner, final thoughts?

BREMNER: Nancy, if there`s a pattern here, then look at the thousands of boys that have been at Neverland for decades. And it might be dangerous for the defense to bring that in, but think about this: If they`re showing some kind of a pattern with similar evidence when in fact there`s been all of these opportunities, and no one coming forward saying that Michael Jackson`s a child molester.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t know, Anne. But the prosecution said there would be seven other incidents, OK?

Very quickly, Jim Moret, final thought?

MORET: Anybody who thinks that this boy was motivated by money, he continued with therapy four years after his mother reached a settlement. I think that`s very powerful evidence in favor of the prosecution.

GRACE: Good point, Jim. Hadn`t thought of that.

Anne Bremner, I saw you waving your hand. What were you going to say?

BREMNER: Nothing, Nancy, only that it`s really five, but there`s only one victim testifying, Nancy. And that`s very compelling.

GRACE: I know, I know the prosecution only got in five other instances. But they tried to get in seven other instances.

BREMNER: They did, Nancy.

GRACE: And Melville is only allowing five, plus the current accuser. Maybe six means nothing to you. But six kids saying basically the same thing made me stop in my tracks. But hey, I`m not in the jury box.

I want to thank all of my guests, Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jim Moret, Joe Episcopo, Anne Bremner, Robi Ludwig, Raymond Chandler. But most of all, thank you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your homes.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Until tomorrow, good night, friend.

END


Aired April 4, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the bomb has been dropped and detonated on day 25 in the Michael Jackson child sex case. Today, one of his first known alleged victims takes the stand, describes tickling turned to molestation by Michael Jackson. And tonight, the alleged 1993 molestation victim`s uncle speaks out about the case that cost Michael Jackson $20 million.
The world grieves the death of Pope John Paul II as the Vatican steels itself for the Pope`s funeral this Friday morning. Over 100 cardinals converge on Vatican City today, the next leader of the Catholic world.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Monday night.

Over a billion Catholics worldwide -- eyes trained on the Vatican, where Pope John Paul II now lays in state in St. Peter`s Basilica. More than two million people -- repeat, two million people, not all Catholics -- traveling to Rome to pay final respects to Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla.

Tonight, in New York, from St. Joseph`s Seminary, Father Lorenzo Albacete; in Washington, Father David O`Connell of Catholic University.

But first, to Rome, and Christian Science Monitor correspondent, Peter Ford.

Peter, welcome. Please tell us what`s going on there.

PETER FORD, CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR: Well, as you can see, and certainly here, we have tens of thousands of people queuing. It`s now 2 o`clock in the morning. There must be at least 50,000 people still waiting in line patiently to file past John Paul II`s body. There`s been a line this long for the last six or seven hours. And I wouldn`t be surprised if there`s a line this long for the next three or four days. I don`t think it will be surprising if there are two million people by the time he is finally put in his coffin.

GRACE: Peter Ford, as you said it`s about 2:00 a.m. there in the Vatican City. We are showing you a live shot of Pope John Paul II lying in state, the leader of the Catholic world. Peter, how many cardinals are about to converge on the holy city there?

FORD: Well, most of them are already here, although some Americans have not yet left. When they`re all here, there will be about 140 of them, 150. But only 117 will actually go into the conclave to choose the next pope, because under the rules, only cardinals under the age of 80 are allowed to vote.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me, Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete.

Father, you were personal friends with Karol Wojtyla.

MONSIGNOR LORENZO ALBACETE, ST. JOSEPH`S SEMINARY: Yes, I was privileged to meet him before he was Pope.

GRACE: You know, so many of us have only seen him from afar. Catholics and non-Catholics alike have come to respect him. Could you tell us a story about him?

ALBACETE: I will tell you the story about what I`m doing tonight. About a year or so ago, people were already preparing. It was obvious he was ill. And the last chance I had to see him, I said to him that I had been asked by CNN to come on television when he died. And I kind of felt guilty about it. And he looked at me...

GRACE: He wasn`t dead yet, and you had asked to come talk about his death.

ALBACETE: Well, everybody has been preparing. And so he looked at me intensely. And I said, "I feel guilty." He said, "No, all right." He said, "I want to know, why are they sure that I am dying first?" And then I said, "Do you know something I don`t know?" And he said, "No, no. It`s just that." And I said, "Well, let`s put it this way. If I die first, will you go on CNN and say nice things about me?" Well, he died first. I am now on CNN saying nice things about him.

GRACE: Well, apparently, Father, he had it from a good source that he would go first.

ALBACETE: Oh, I think so, yes.

GRACE: Could you tell me about his salad-making?

ALBACETE: He was very proud of this salad. The week I met him -- I was with him a week before he became Pope. And he was nowhere near -- it was a year later that he became Pope. There were a number of times when he had to prepare our own meals.

And I cannot even fry an egg. So the discussion began about what he could do, what I could do. And he said his strong point was this salad. He knew how to do this powerful salad, Polish salad dressing. And then it became a great theme. Well, years later, when he was Pope and I had the privilege of having lunch with him, he prepared, he unveiled his salad dressing.

GRACE: How was it?

ALBACETE: It was the worst thing I`ve ever eaten in my entire life.

GRACE: Did you tell the Holy Father that...

ALBACETE: No, no. It would have broken his heart.

GRACE: ... did not tell him about his stinky salad?

OK. I`m going to go to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. He`s professor of theology at Catholic University.

But before I do, back to Peter Ford, Christian Science Monitor correspondent. Peter, we are showing the viewers a live shot of Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, lying in state. I see that people are filing by. How many people are estimated to view the Pope?

FORD: Sorry, how many people are estimated?

GRACE: Yes.

FORD: Well, as I say, I think there are probably a good 50,000 in the street outside the Basilica at the moment. I would think by the end of the night, probably 200,000 may have gone past, if not more. And he`s expected to lie in state for four days.

Estimates of two million probably would not be exaggerated. It`s really quite astonishing to see so many people here at such a late hour. These are ordinary people, mostly ordinary Romans. They have to go to work tomorrow morning.

I talked to them. I said, "You know, what are you doing here? How long are you going to wait?" And many of them said to me, "We`ll wait as long as it takes."

Now, officially the doors behind me to St. Peter`s basilica were due to close at 2 o`clock. From 2:00 until 5:00, no one was going to be allowed in. It doesn`t look like the authorities dared to close the doors because they`d have a riot on their hands if they did, although the crowd is very peaceful, very quiet at the moment.

GRACE: Let me go to Father David O`Connell with Catholic University.

Father, thank you for being with us. You know, Pope John Paul II actually led the church during a very controversial time, controversy over homosexuality, over women`s rights in the Church, over birth control. He`s leaving a legacy. My understanding is they are called John Paul`s army. Explain.

DAVID O`CONNELL, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: I`m not quite sure what your reference is to.

GRACE: The young seminarians that consider themselves John Paul`s soldiers.

O`CONNELL: Oh, I see. Well, you have to realize that for most of these young men in the seminary, this is the only Pope that they`ve ever known. And in large respect -- and it`s not just confined to seminaries -- but I find it on the Catholic University campus here in Washington -- many of our young people, they identify themselves, they identify their practice and their Catholic identity with this Holy Father, with Pope John Paul II.

GRACE: To Monsignor Kevin Irwin, explain to us how the next pope is going to be chosen.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: He`ll be chosen by the 117 electors voting in the Sistine Chapel. There will be no nominating speeches. There will be no lobbying. There will be a good bit of discussion among those cardinals.

And they will begin voting in the afternoon. And they`ll take two ballots, and each ballot requires the cardinal to write a name on a piece of paper and to take that up to probably a large chalice in the Sistine Chapel, drop that in, and pray that the electors will do their job. And eventually, after several ballots perhaps -- we don`t know how many -- there will be a new Pope.

GRACE: Now, isn`t it correct, Monsignor, that the cardinals are not allowed to leave until they come up with a pope? And that under John Paul II`s reign, it was determined that after a certain point in time, the new pope could be elected by a simple majority?

IRWIN: That`s correct. And that`s after about, I think, three full days of voting, they can take a day off to pray and to discuss, and then after that, they can come back and determine a simple majority. So that`s a possibility under the new rules that this Pope has put in place.

GRACE: To Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete. Father, before his death, the Pope asked to be read the story of the third hour. What was that?

ALBACETE: The third hour?

GRACE: I believe about Christ`s crucifixion when he gave up his life.

ALBACETE: Yes, he was following the prayer of the Way of the Cross because he was aware that this was the moment, the supreme moment of his life, the moment that would define who he was. And it is the moment of death.

And that, for him, it was an embrace. It was a way of participating in Christ`s death. And he was walking, walking this last leg with Christ living in him. But this is Easter. So this is -- he was walking towards death in the company of a risen Christ, as his faith tells him and tells us.

GRACE: You know, Father, the thing that -- of all of his travels, of naming more saints than any other pope ever, the thing that has stayed with me in my mind and heart regarding John Paul II is that he forgave his assassin, the man that tried to kill him. He went and sought him out in jail and loved him.

ALBACETE: Well, then you are in the right line of his desire, because you notice that his last official statement that was read yesterday was that, if anything is going to save us, humankind, it is mercy. And that is forgiveness.

GRACE: And Father, in my line of business, analyzing violent crimes, I will certainly keep that in mind. Thank you, Father.

ALBACETE: Thank you very much. Thank you.

GRACE: We will continue to bring you the latest regarding the election of the new pope to lead the Catholic world.

When we come back, like every good trial lawyer, as difficult as it is to do, we will open a new trial file of Michael Jackson. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In 1993, Michael Jackson settled a civil case with an alleged child molestation victim to the tune of $20 million-plus. Cha-ching!

Tonight, in L.A., the alleged victim`s uncle, Raymond Chandler, speaking out on a day of all days when another young boy has landed on the witness stand.

But first to Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent joining us, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Welcome back. Dig in. What`s the latest, friend?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, this was an amazing day for the prosecution. This is perhaps the best day that the prosecution has seen.

This young man, 24-years-old, gets on the stand and talks about three times that he says Michael Jackson molested him, once when he was seven, eight, and then ten. And he says all three incidents began with tickling. And as he started to talk about the third, the most serious incident, he became very emotional.

And he choked up. And he said, "You know, I had to go through a lot of counseling to get through this." And then he said, "He was tickling me." And then he literally broke down and said, "So much harder than I thought it would be."

And he put a towel over his face. He took a few seconds to compose himself. And then he said Michael Jackson proceeded to touch him under his shorts. The prosecutor asked him, was it your penis or your testicles? And he said, "I think it was option two." And then the prosecutor ultimately asked him, "Who did you tell first?" And this was perhaps the most emotional moment when he said, "Probably God."

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, this alleged victim was how old at the time of the alleged molestation? Seven, eight, and ten...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Seven, eight, and ten. So this began approximately 17 years ago. But it could have been yesterday based on the emotions that he displayed in court. I mean, either he`s an Academy Award-winning actor or the defense has some real problems here.

GRACE: And you know what? Jane Velez-Mitchell, let`s get real, all right? Because the reality is that this witness on the stand is a 24-year- old young man, scrubbed in sunshine. He`s a religious youth minister, newlywed, got that wedding band shining on his left hand. You can tell it`s practically brand new. Good luck cross-examining this guy -- Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he`s squeaky clean. And he exuded sort of a goody-two shoes atmosphere, a mama`s boy, almost, kept bragging about what a great housekeeper his mother was. And of course, he`s a former youth pastor, as you mentioned. He`s working in a mentoring program now, an anti-truancy program.

I assure you, if the defense had something on him, they would use it. They didn`t. In fact, Tom Mesereau, a brilliant attorney as we all know, seemed to have his hands tied behind his back a little bit today because of the emotion. And also the -- he doesn`t seem to have anything on this young man.

GRACE: Jim Moret, what was the jury -- oh, everybody, Jim Moret is with us, senior correspondent with "Inside Edition."

Jim Moret, what was the jury response to this young man, 24-years-old, recounting what he says happened ages seven, eight, and nine?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": I think that the jury`s response was frankly the same as all of us in the courtroom. And those in the listening room. We were stunned.

Nancy, this witness was more compelling than the young accuser who survived cancer. That`s how powerful this witness was. He needed Kleenex at one point. He needed to take a break. Even asked the judge, "May I just take a moment? This is harder than I thought it would be."

And he said something that was very powerful. He said he doesn`t even think his own mom knows all of the details that he was about to give in the stand. And it was really difficult to watch this witness.

GRACE: To Raymond Chandler, he is the uncle of the previous accuser, a young boy that cost Michael Jackson over $20 million.

Raymond Chandler, I`ve been wondering all day how you are going to react to the testimony from the now 24-year-old accuser. Does it ring a bell, Raymond?

RAYMOND CHANDLER, UNCLE OF MICHAEL JACKSON`S ACCUSER: Well, it rings a bell in the sense that both my nephew and this young man were molested. You know, my nephew, in his statement to the authorities, his relationship of course with Michael Jackson was much longer, it lasted many, many months, slept in the same bed with Michael conservatively 50 or 60 nights, recounted about 10 to 15 incidents of masturbation and about that many of Michael performing oral sex on him.

So you know, this testimony wasn`t surprising. But then again, I`m glad the boy had the courage to come forward and do it.

GRACE: Well, why won`t your nephew come forward, for Pete`s sake?

CHANDLER: You`re preaching to the choir here, Nancy. I really wish he would.

You know what? What the family went through back then with the bomb threats and the fans trying to get into the house and coming to the place of business and dead animals with their heads cut off, I think in his mind, the last thing he wants to be is the Michael Jackson kid.

GRACE: You know what? I didn`t know about death threats and dead animals with their heads chopped off.

With me is Raymond Chandler. He is the uncle of the `93 accuser, the young boy that claimed Jackson molested him, as well.

Before we go to break, Dusty, come over here a sec, if you can. If you don`t believe all this, I`ve got with me, a, the sworn affidavit -- thank you, dear -- the sworn affidavit here of the `93 accuser. It describes masturbation by Michael Jackson, nipple twisting, tongue kissing, you name it.

And the whole grooming process, in other words, Jackson allegedly grooming the boy to become a child molestation victim. And here, the redacted, which means names and numbers kept out, agreement where the young boy in `93 got over $20 million from Michael Jackson. I don`t know if that number is going to come into court or not.

We are live in Santa Maria, California, bringing you the latest in the Michael Jackson child molestation case. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: We have guest units, but whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. They never want to stay in the guest room. And I have never invited them in my room. They always just want to stay with me. They say, "Can I stay with you tonight?" I go, "If it`s OK with your parents, yes, you can."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good Lord in heaven. That`s from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury. Also a response, a rebuttal documentary, made by a Jackson staffer was also shown to the jury. So it`s video versus video, until now.

Now, other accusers, the defense`s worst nightmare, other little boys filing into court, saying Jackson molested them, as well.

Elizabeth, you got ahead of me and you threw up that graph.

Dusty, if you could show again, what I`ve got here is a sworn affidavit by the 1993 accuser.

Raymond chandler is his uncle. And he`s not coming to court, is he, Raymond?

CHANDLER: No, it`s my understanding that he`s not coming to court.

GRACE: Have you tried -- did you ever talk to him about coming to court?

CHANDLER: Well, I can`t get to him directly. I wish I could. But I`m sure many people have. And you know, again, I think his reasoning is just -- he`s just sick of the whole thing, doesn`t want any part of it, leave me alone, let me live my life.

GRACE: Raymond, Elizabeth, throw up this graph from this sworn affidavit from the `93 accuser. "Michael Jackson had me suck one nipple, twist the other nipple, while Jackson masturbated. On one occasion when Jackson and I were in bed together" -- is there more to that, Elizabeth? Yes, "Jackson grabbed my buttocks and kissed me while he put his tongue in my ear. I told him I didn`t like that. And Michael Jackson started to cry."

Yes. Raymond Chandler, if that is true -- how old is your nephew now?

CHANDLER: He`s about 25.

GRACE: OK. He`s a man.

CHANDLER: Right.

GRACE: He needs to come into court and tell this jury the truth.

CHANDLER: I agree, absolutely. I do.

GRACE: OK, tell me why you think -- if he`s sick of it, I got sick reading this affidavit, OK? So I`m sure he is sick of it. But why not speak up on behalf of other little boys? This current accuser got trashed, ripped up on cross-exam, and your nephew could hold the key to stopping that.

CHANDLER: I agree with you. He could hold the key to stopping it.

As you know, I`ve written a book, a not-for-profit book called, "All That Glitters: The Crime and the Cover-Up," in which I outlined from the first day my nephew met Michael Jackson how the seduction took place.

It`s not just the sex acts themselves. I mean, that is bad. But it`s actually taking over these children`s personalities, their souls, getting them away from their parents, gaining control of them, like pedophiles do. Using their trust, the relationship of trust, to gain the confidence of these children.

I mean, take away the fame and the fortune. And Michael Jackson`s no different than any other pedophile in the way he operates. And I hope that the jury understands that and they see that. But you know, I mean, my nephew could tell that story. He could tell the entire story. But he`s not going to be there.

GRACE: When we get back, we`ll speak with Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. The last time I brought this up to her she announced that some children lie. Are they all lying?

Quick break. But as we go to break, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Armando Manzo, 24-year-old father of three young boys, shot and killed, Stockton, California, January 2003. Take a look. Any info on Armando Manzo, call a toll-free number, 888-813-8389. Could be a reward involved. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARON COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Sharon Collins. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

President Bush will be among the dozens of world leaders attending Pope John Paul II`s funeral set for Friday morning. Until then, the pontiff`s body will lie in state at St. Peter`s Basilica.

A White House welcome for Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko. President Bush met with the newly elected Ukraine leader today and promised to help the country in its transition to democracy. Mr. Bush avowed to assist Ukraine in gaining membership to the World Trade Organization and in lifting trade restrictions.

And it will be a Saturday royal wedding instead of a Friday one. Prince Charles and Camilla Parker-Bowles are postponing their wedding for a day because of the Pope`s funeral. Now, the prince will represent the royal family at the Pope`s funeral in Rome. Parker-Bowles will not attend.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sharon Collins. Back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Peter Pan to me represents something that`s very special in my heart. You know, it represents youth, childhood, never growing up, magic, flying. And to me, I just have never, ever grown out of loving that or thinking that is very special.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s magic, all right. Jackson claims that all of his dance moves inspired by children. I don`t know if this is state`s exhibit number 1 or not, but we`ll see I`m sure the defense will fight it. That bite was from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury.

With us, a very special guest, the uncle of the `93 accuser, Raymond Chandler is with us.

Raymond, when you heard the testimony today regarding yet another accuser, now grown up, now 24-years-old, are they physically similar? Did the testimony from this young man ring a bell? Was it an echo of your little nephew?

CHANDLER: Well, it was an echo in the sense -- only in the sense of the fact that, you know, he was an adult gaining the trust of a child to molest him. But you know, my nephew`s relationship went on much, much longer than this one.

But I want to comment, if I might, Nancy, about the children lying. You know, go back to 1993. Michael Jackson was the most -- one of the most famous, if not the most famous and powerful, human beings on the planet. He had the best lawyers money can buy, private investigators working full- time for him. A cadre of P.R. professionals selling his image all over the world.

And you think a middle-class family could go in and make an accusation in a courtroom with absolutely no evidence because it was all a lie and they didn`t have any evidence? Mr. Mesereau has told the world, "Oh, Michael got bad advice back then."

What Mr. Mesereau has conveniently neglected to tell everyone, that the advice Michael Jackson got was from the late Johnnie Cochran -- may he rest in peace -- and Mr. Cochran was a great lawyer. And he was not going to advise Michael Jackson to settle the case if there was no evidence. There was a mountain of evidence collected. It`s all in my book, if people want to know what it is.

GRACE: Well, Raymond, question, very quickly, couldn`t your nephew identify Jackson`s penis and markings, like freckles or discolorations or something?

CHANDLER: That was the straw that broke the camel`s back. That`s why Johnnie Cochran...

GRACE: So, I take it that`s a yes.

CHANDLER: ... called and said, "Let`s settle." The answer is yes.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord.

CHANDLER: Very distinguishing marks in very private areas that you wouldn`t see changing into a bathing suit, yes.

GRACE: OK, you know what?

Let me confront the young -- emphasis on young -- lady, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. When I talked to you about the Jackson case, your immediate response was, "You know, a lot of kids make things up."

OK, you`re telling me the `93 kid made it up, Raymond Chandler`s nephew, the current accuser made it up, and the kid on the stand today?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, I actually have perhaps a unique perspective on this.

GRACE: Somebody knows the backstroke.

LUDWIG: I don`t think the 1993 case was a lie. I actually think that there was merit to that case. And perhaps there was merit to the case of the boy who was on the stand today. That does not mean that this particular family is being honest about what happened.

And here`s the big question: We don`t know if what happened -- if what they say actually did happen. There are kids who lie. It is rare. It tends to happen in divorce cases. It tends to happen in cases where...

GRACE: Well, hold on. This isn`t a divorce case.

LUDWIG: No, I understand that. But what did this child call Michael Jackson?

GRACE: Daddy.

LUDWIG: Daddy Michael. So it`s very possible that this child experienced Michael as a father, or paternal-like. And the mother may have had fantasies that Michael would have come in, saved the family, maybe even be her good husband, and something about the split got experienced like another divorce.

So I think there`s something unique about this case that just does not ring true to me, or there`s a lot of questions for me. However, when I hear about the 1993 case, I think it happened.

GRACE: Let me go to Anne Bremner, Seattle lawyer standing by. She`s been in the courtroom all day.

How did this accuser come across? He`s now 24-years-old, recounting molestation ages seven, eight, and nine by Michael Jackson.

ANNE BREMNER, LAWYER: Nancy, never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat. Mesereau got up today and did a masterful job in cross- examining this accuser.

And three really important things. One was money, money, it`s about the money. Remember, this settled after the `93 settlement, which was huge and all over the news.

But the second thing is, molested but really tickled, he said, when he was seven, and then a year went by, when he was eight, then two years went by, and then when he was ten. Not the pattern of a pedophile, you know, that Michael Jackson, if he`s a pedophile, wouldn`t be waiting those extreme lengths of time.

And then the third thing was is that he denied that anything happened in the beginning and told the police they were pushing him. And then, when Mr. Sneddon was involved, too, the Javier in "Les Miserables," presumably as portrayed by the defense, then he said something happened.

So I don`t know if he came across the end of the day the way that he`s being portrayed right now.

GRACE: Anne, Anne, yes, no, did the jury hear the amount of the settlement?

BREMNER: No.

GRACE: Let me go to Joe Episcopo, defense attorney out of Tampa, Florida.

Joe Episcopo, you know, they don`t teach you in law school the class called "Sit Down and Shut Up," unfortunately. And I think Mesereau should make it short and sweet with all of these prior victims`, cross-exam or eyewitnesses. What do you think?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and you know what, I agree with that. And I think that he`s got an excellent argument he can make in closing.

First of all, the other four boys are not going to testify. And all that information you put out is not going to be heard by the jury.

But getting back to today`s witness, I think a jury can see the fundamental unfairness. This kid`s talking about instances from 1988, 17 years ago. That evidence predates the law of evidence that allows it in. It`s fundamentally unfair. And the jury can be persuaded that, look, this thing happened 17 years ago.

But what about what we had in court today? We had a chance to cross- examine the present accuser. And look what happens when we get to do that. We didn`t get to do that in 1988. We didn`t get to talk to anybody. There was no trial, no litigation. Therefore, forget what happened in `88. What happened in 2003? That`s what they`ve got to decide, and I think they can be persuaded that he`s still not guilty.

GRACE: OK, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell. Joe Episcopo said we will not hear from the other alleged victims. That`s true. But we will hear from eyewitnesses that claim they observed Michael Jackson molest the other victims. And the evidence -- let`s see, this evidence was when the kid was seven, eight, and nine. He`s 24 now. So it`s not all 17 years ago.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I think this is where the prosecution could run into some trouble. This was a perfect witness, short and sweet. Move on.

Because if you get this collection of disgruntled former employees and people who have sold their stories to the tabloids, et cetera, on the stand to say, "I saw Michael Jackson do this," you could run into trouble.

All these people have tons of baggage. On top of that, some of the kids that they`re talking about have said nothing happened. For example, the famous child star who`s been involved in this has said repeatedly nothing happened.

So I think this is a murky area. I think the prosecution would be well advised to make this short and sweet. They`ve made their point. Move on.

GRACE: Very quickly, Jane Velez-Mitchell, how did the cross go on this young man today, 24-year-old youth adviser.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I respect Anne`s opinion very much. I would have to say, while I totally agree Tom Mesereau is a brilliant attorney, I felt that he had to sort of hold his punches, because he may not have anticipated -- who could? -- that this boy would be so emotional.

So he`s probably loaded to just really fight this kid. And all of a sudden, all this emotion comes up, so he can`t do it because it looks like he`s beating up on somebody who`s a victim who`s suffered horribly. So I think his hands were kind of tied.

Now, he did start talking about the fact that this boy`s mother, the housekeeper who used to work at Neverland, reportedly sold her story to "Hard Copy" for $20,000. But that`s not the boy`s fault. And the boy said he just found out about that a couple of days ago.

So you can`t really blame him. So I didn`t think the cross examination was that effective today.

GRACE: As we go to break, I want to show you another graph out of the 1993 accuser`s sworn affidavit: "Jackson then masturbated in front of me, told me that when I was ready he would do it for me. While we were in bed, Jackson put his hand underneath my underpants, masturbated me to a climax. Jackson masturbated me many times, both with his hand and with his mouth."

That accuser`s uncle is with us tonight. I don`t know why he won`t come forward to this jury. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I`d like to thank the fans around the world for your love and support from every corner of the Earth. I love the community of Santa Maria very much. It`s my community. My home is in this community. I will always love this community from the bottom of my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

We are live in Santa Maria, California, and the latest in the Michael Jackson sex case.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jane, was the cross-examination completed today?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, it wasn`t. And absolutely we could see very powerful cross tomorrow when Tom Mesereau has an evening to think about how he wants to proceed. Or there could be some surprises. But I do think that this is going to have a lasting impression on the jury.

GRACE: Well, also with us is Jim Moret, senior correspondent with "Inside Edition." He`s there at the courthouse. He`s also a lawyer.

Jim Moret, that is a huge bonus to a lawyer when they stop at the end of the day in the middle of cross and they can come back the next day and resume cross. They`ve got overnight to think about it, to plan it, and to speak with their colleagues. What do you expect tomorrow, Jim?

MORET: Well, Tom Mesereau is a master at that. I have to tell you, because he is great at drawing things out. And he stops when he wants to stop.

I think this is a tough witness for him. This is a very difficult witness. You know, Nancy, one moment I was able to see the witness at a break. And he was looking at the jurors, trying to get a sense of what they were feeling.

And I kept thinking about, if there is an acquittal in this case, you know, this witness was so brave to come forward, is he going to blame himself that he didn`t believe me? That`s a thought that came over me.

And I`m sure as a former prosecutor you must think that same thing. You look at a witness, and you bring them forward, who didn`t have to testify. And you look at Raymond Chandler`s nephew, and he`s apparently reluctant to testify because he`s afraid of coming into this mess.

GRACE: Well, there are a lot of reasons why he wouldn`t testify. I hope for justice, I don`t like witnesses sitting back, counting their money.

Let me quickly go to Robi Ludwig, a psychotherapist here in New York. There are reasons why a molestation victim may not come forward in front of a jury. What?

LUDWIG: Because they don`t want to be re-victimized in the trial. And that`s exactly what happens. These are people who were raped, who were sexually assaulted. And then when they`re in the court of law, instead of assuming that they`re telling the truth, you have the defense attorney who is going to cross-examine them.

And if it`s still very raw and painful for them, it`s going to feel like they`re being re-victimized, re-raped. And if they don`t have the psychological constitution to deal with that, it could be very painful and traumatizing.

GRACE: With us tonight, the uncle of the `93 Michael Jackson accuser, the alleged victim who took a $20 million-plus settlement.

Raymond Chandler, is anybody from your family going to testify in this case?

CHANDLER: Well, I`m pretty certain that my nephew`s mother, my ex- sister-in-law, will be testifying. And I guarantee you she will have some very interesting stories to tell.

GRACE: What do you think her testimony will be?

CHANDLER: Well, for one thing, she will place her son in a bedroom with Michael Jackson, conservatively 50 or 60 nights, probably more, in his own home, in his own bedroom, for 30 nights. And I saw that bed. It`s not a very big bed. And all over the world, hotel rooms all over the world, where Michael took them traveling. She will also testify, I believe, about seeing Michael in some inappropriate behavior with another little boy that she saw.

GRACE: What type of inappropriate behavior?

CHANDLER: Well, a boy sitting on Michael`s lap. Michael kissing around his necks and cheek, and sort of caressing him in a very overtly sensual manner.

GRACE: Speaking of inappropriate behavior, Elizabeth, more from the `93 accuser`s sworn affidavit: "The next step, Jackson put his tongue in my mouth. I told him I didn`t like it. Jackson started crying and said there was nothing wrong with it."

OK, back to Raymond Chandler, the `93 accuser`s uncle. Did you say 50 to 60 times your nephew was in bed with Jackson and the mother knew it?

CHANDLER: Absolutely, every night. That was a...

GRACE: Why? Didn`t she -- didn`t it, ding, ding, ding? It`s not normal to have a little boy in bed with a 40-year-old man?

CHANDLER: Well, interestingly enough, the first time Michael slept -- my nephew slept in bed with Michael, they were in a hotel suite in Las Vegas. The mother and the little sister went to sleep. Michael played "The Exorcist" for him. The boy was scared. Michael suggested that he spend the night in his room. They did.

GRACE: Played "The Exorcist"? How old was your nephew?

CHANDLER: 13.

GRACE: I can`t even watch "The Exorcist."

CHANDLER: Well, yes, and I think we have testimony or we`re going to hear testimony about Michael playing scary movies for other boys. But the mother admonished him. When she found out the next morning that he had slept in Michael`s room, she admonished him.

And when the boy told Michael -- told his mother, excuse me, the mother came to Michael -- Michael came to the mother. He cried. He broke down. He said, "Don`t put barricades in the relationship. It`s all about love and trust." He gave her a very expensive piece of jewelry.

And according to my nephew`s testimony, that was the last his mother ever said of it. And he slept with Michael Jackson in bed every night after that. The relationship lasted -- this was February. It lasted until June or July.

And so, you know, the mother will say, well, when they went behind those doors, I didn`t know what was going on. I didn`t hear anything. I didn`t see anything. I trusted him.

GRACE: Oh, the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Joe Episcopo, this is disgusting. Look, take off your defense hat just a second, Joe. You`re a friend. Put on your dad hat. I know your daughter. This is very upsetting.

EPISCOPO: I know, but it`s not what he`s charged with. Those are old instances, and that witness is not coming forward.

GRACE: Joe, Joe, Joe, you know a pedophile can`t be cured. And like all of us, people make the same mistake. We do the same thing over and over. A pedophile is going to do the same thing again.

EPISCOPO: But you can`t prove someone guilty of a crime in 2003 from facts from 1988. It`s fundamentally unfair. It`s unconstitutional.

GRACE: Well, guess what, Joe? The California Assembly, as most legislatures across the country, disagrees with you when it comes to similar transaction. But I`ll give you a chance to fight back when we get back from break.

EPISCOPO: Don`t forget about the Ninth Circuit.

GRACE: I haven`t forgotten that nut cake yet, the Ninth Circuit.

Quick break, everyone. But to "Trial Tracking": In 2002, Indiana state trooper David Camm, convicted of murdering his wife and two children, overturned when a trial judge decided testimony about his affairs tainted the case. Prosecutors set to try him again, but this time, the alleged accomplice also on trial. Prosecutors say the accomplice provided the murder weapon and witnessed the murders.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back, and remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Let me quickly go to the uncle of the 1993 Michael Jackson accuser. How is your nephew with the current allegations of yet more child molestation on Jackson`s part?

CHANDLER: Well, I haven`t actually talked to him about it. But you know, I`m sure he`s -- because obviously he`s not testifying. And he just doesn`t want to get involved in it. So I`m sure his feeling is, "Leave me out of it."

GRACE: Is he in the country?

CHANDLER: I`m not sure. Last I heard, he wasn`t. But there are conflicting reports. So I can`t say for sure.

GRACE: Very quickly to Anne Bremner, final thoughts?

BREMNER: Nancy, if there`s a pattern here, then look at the thousands of boys that have been at Neverland for decades. And it might be dangerous for the defense to bring that in, but think about this: If they`re showing some kind of a pattern with similar evidence when in fact there`s been all of these opportunities, and no one coming forward saying that Michael Jackson`s a child molester.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I don`t know, Anne. But the prosecution said there would be seven other incidents, OK?

Very quickly, Jim Moret, final thought?

MORET: Anybody who thinks that this boy was motivated by money, he continued with therapy four years after his mother reached a settlement. I think that`s very powerful evidence in favor of the prosecution.

GRACE: Good point, Jim. Hadn`t thought of that.

Anne Bremner, I saw you waving your hand. What were you going to say?

BREMNER: Nothing, Nancy, only that it`s really five, but there`s only one victim testifying, Nancy. And that`s very compelling.

GRACE: I know, I know the prosecution only got in five other instances. But they tried to get in seven other instances.

BREMNER: They did, Nancy.

GRACE: And Melville is only allowing five, plus the current accuser. Maybe six means nothing to you. But six kids saying basically the same thing made me stop in my tracks. But hey, I`m not in the jury box.

I want to thank all of my guests, Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jim Moret, Joe Episcopo, Anne Bremner, Robi Ludwig, Raymond Chandler. But most of all, thank you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your homes.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Until tomorrow, good night, friend.

END