Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for July 21, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 21, 2005 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Twelve-inch blonde hairs attached to duct tape discovered by a park ranger on an Aruban beach just arrived in crime labs in both the Netherlands and FBI headquarters in Quantico, Virginia. DNA testing tonight under way.
DNA also under the microscope taken from the three men last seen with 18-year-old Natalee Holloway the night Natalee disappeared from her high school senior class trip. It is day 53 since the blonde Alabama beauty and star student vanished into thin air.

Tonight, the clock is ticking. It`s just a matter of hours until we find out if this is Natalee`s hair attached to duct tape.

And, BTK, bind, torture, kill, and sell. Yes, sell. A letter written by BTK serial killer Dennis Rader sells on the Internet. And that`s just the beginning. The floodgates now open for torture-killer Rader to make thousands in blood money from behind bars.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Bind, torture, kill. Confessed BTK serial killer bragged he had a talent, a talent for serial murder. Tonight, grave robbers called Memorabilia Collectors are all set to cash in -- cha-ching -- selling items related to three decades of killing by BTK killer Rader.

But first, we`re going live to Aruba for breaking news. It is day 53 of the Natalee Holloway missing girl mystery.

Tonight, just arriving in crime labs in both the Hague, Netherlands, and FBI headquarters in Quantico, Virginia, blonde hair discovered on thick duct tape on the Aruba beach. Tonight, we want to learn, is this Natalee`s hair?

And double crime labs also testing DNA samples from three Aruban men last seen with Natalee the night she vanished. It was the last night of her high school senior trip. One of them, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, still behind bars. The Kalpoe brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, walk free tonight, released from jail by an Aruban judge.

Tonight, in Birmingham, Alabama, Natalee`s stepfather, Jug Twitty is with us; in Aruba, T.J. Ward. He`s a private investigator for the Twittys; in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in New York, psychiatrist Dr. Lisa Weinstock (ph).

But first, let`s go to WBMA reporter Anastasiya Bolton.

Welcome, Anastasiya. Bring us up-to-date.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA-REPORTER: Well, the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, has just started testing those DNA sample, that piece of hair and a piece of duct tape that was found in Aruba on Sunday.

The Netherlands forensic institute got their piece of evidence last night. They`re supposed to test it in the next couple of days. We expect results in the next 48 to 72 hours. So we may learn, Nancy, as soon as next week, if that tape is, indeed, Natalee`s.

Also, as you mentioned, Karin Janssen, the prosecutor in Aruba, has asked for the three men last seen with Natalee to be tested for DNA. She had actually asked the judge to rule on that on July 13th. The judge in Aruba did not allow the DNA testing until July 19th.

Actually, an interesting point, July 19th is a Tuesday. The DNA samples we`re talking about, the hair and the duct tape, was found the Sunday before. So the question remains, was the judge influenced by that evidence found on Sunday or he did rule not regarding that evidence?

GRACE: I want to go straight down to Jug Twitty, this is Natalee`s stepfather joining us. Jug, what do you think about the DNA testing of the duct tape?

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, STEPFATHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Nancy, I don`t know. I hope it turns up something. The DNA, as far as taking the saliva or whatever from the boys -- you know, I think back to when Beth had to go and apologize for her remarks.

And just think, Nancy, what would have happened if the boys would have left the island. And they now needed to take these DNA samples or whatever. They wouldn`t have been there.

GRACE: Jug, don`t remind me of your wife having to make a formal public apology to the people of Aruba after she just told the truth, that they were bungling the investigation from the get-go.

And if she hadn`t spoken out, you`re right. Those DNA samples may never have been possible on the Kalpoe brothers. You`re dead right.

And to think of her at a time like this, having to go on air, and eat a dirt sandwich, and apologize for what? But, you know what, she did it. She did it because she wants to find Natalee.

I want to go to Daniel Horowitz. Daniel, you and I have both handled a lot of cases involving around DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. A week? They don`t need a week to test DNA.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think that the length of the test may relate to the duct tape.

You`re right. They can take the hair, look for mitochondrial mother- centered DNA quickly, maybe in about three or four days. But that duct tape, that can have the fingerprints or rather the skin from the person who handled it. They have to very carefully extract it and then compare it to these three suspects. That could break the case.

GRACE: I want to go to private investigator T.J. Ward, hired by the Twitty families. T.J., what is it that you plan to do in Aruba that hasn`t been done yet?

T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Thank you, Nancy. I`m here on behalf of the Twittys. And we`re going to open our own private investigation.

I met with Beth last night and this morning, and have gathered a great deal of information of names and individuals that may be directly or indirectly involved in this. And I know that there`s a reward has just come out, and I`m going to assist the Twittys and probably going through calls and information that we may receive from this information.

And ironically, having a layered voice analysis here a few weeks ago, which was offered to the government and wasn`t used, we have the equipment here. And if it`s necessary, with these witnesses or people that may have further information, I may be able to use that to extract who may be telling the truth, or who may not be telling the truth, or who may be an exaggerating or just out there pondering for reward money.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: You know, Nancy, as each day passes, I really just become even more and more determined. And I know with my faith and trust in God, I know he is supporting me, and everyone in the United States and, of course you know, Natalee`s community of Mountain Brook, Alabama. You know, that is what is carrying me through this. And each day, I`m able to do it and will be able do it.


GRACE: Here on the set with me, a veteran trial lawyer. Now, he`s on the other side of the fence, Richard Herman, a defense lawyer.

Richard, I think we do have one thing in common. When I`m getting ready for a murder trial, I work day and night. I fall asleep on the bed with my files in my hands, OK? Would you take a vacation when you`re in the middle of the fight for your life?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this whole investigation, the prosecution, it is an absolute abomination.

GRACE: Vacation.

HERMAN: Vacation.

GRACE: Would you take a vacation while you`re in the middle of the case?

HERMAN: Absolutely not.

GRACE: I`m glad you said that. I`m glad we agree on one thing. I`m going to hold you to that.

Jug Twitty, what do you make of the prosecutor in this case, Karin Janssen, going on vacation? She`s gone this week. She`s not working on Natalee`s case. She`s not writing up warrants, or search warrants, arrest warrants, warrants for more DNA. No. She`s probably getting a tan somewhere on vacation. I wonder if she took her sunscreen.

TWITTY: Nancy, I hope you`re kidding me when you tell me that, because...

GRACE: I am not. I am not. My producer, Rosie, just told me in my ear just then.

Rosie, am I right? Give me the control room cam. Rosie, are you there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you`re right.

GRACE: OK. We`re right, Jug. We just found out the prosecutor is on vacation.

TWITTY: Well, you know, I was kind of optimistic about having Van Der Straten being changed out and having a new person there. Of course, the person I had probably the most hope and trust in would be Karin Janssen.

And if what you`re telling me is true, I just -- I still can`t believe that, absolutely no way.

GRACE: Well, we`ve got 57 minutes to find out if we`re right or wrong, Jug. I hope you`re right, and that Rosie`s wrong.

No offense, Rosie.

Here in the studio with me, Dr. Lisa Weinstock (ph). Lisa, you and I, all of us on this panel, have canceled vacation, have canceled plans, have come into work on weekends. I remember trying a case through the Thanksgiving holiday, all right? She`s on vacation. I`m disgusted.

DR. LISA WEINSTOCK, PSYCHIATRIST (ph): These ups, these downs. It`s a real emotional roller coaster. And to hear that the prosecution isn`t doing everything they possibly can to find more evidence and to find out what`s happened has got to be devastating for them.

GRACE: Well, Jug, one good thing is the DNA is being tested right now, whether the prosecutor is gone on vacation to the French Riviera or not. Nothing is going to stop that testing, at least at Quantico, Virginia, at the FBI. I don`t know about the Hague in Netherlands, how they do business. But I know one thing, Jug, you can rest easy that they`re making an accurate analysis.

TWITTY: Oh, yes, I agree. And I think that`s great. We just need some help, and we need to speed this process up. It seems like every day it`s starting to speed up a little bit.

And with a new investigative team, I`ve got T.J. down there. And I know he`s going to dig. He`s going to dig into some things that nobody else will give me answers to, so...

GRACE: Yes, he will. I know T.J. Ward from his days as an Atlanta detective.

And, Jug, as we go to break, I just want to break some more news for you. I don`t know about if you know about this, but -- is it Song Airline, Ellie?

Song Airline, which is a part of Delta Airlines, has just announced nonstop flights weekly Saturdays from JFK to Aruba. Just announced it today, but I can tell you this much, Jug, I`m not going to be on that flight. I`m not on my way to Aruba if they can`t even handle this case correctly.

We`ll all be right back.



DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We`ve got three kids here that`s holding up everyone`s lives, including the people here in Aruba. I ran across a lady that asked me, are you searching for Natalee? I said, "Well, yes, are you searching for Natalee?" And she said yes.

And I had a, you know, a conversation with her. And she was from around here. And she indicated that a lot of her friends and family members were just like us, you know, wanting to find Natalee.


GRACE: Breaking news tonight, out of the Aruba investigation into the missing American girl, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, not just a beauty, but a star student and just as beautiful on the inside as on the outside.

DNA has made its way -- it was hand-carried to Quantico, Virginia, crime lab, the FBI crime lab, and the Hague, Netherlands. I want to also tell you tonight, the reward, $200,000 reward for Natalee`s safe return, $100,000 reward for information on her whereabouts.

Her mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, had a press announcement regarding that just this morning.

I want to quickly go to Anastasiya Bolton, WBMA TV reporter. Anastasiya, what else can you tell us as of tonight?

BOLTON: Well, as of tonight, I can tell you the community support, despite that it`s been more than 50 days since Natalee has been missing, has always been strong and continues to be strong.

I get asked daily what the progress of the investigation is and if we`re ever going to find Natalee. There`s been a wall of hope and prayer erected at the church here locally in Mountain Brook. And the wall of prayer originally was only two panels, two building panels. Now it is up to four panels. And it`s covered with prayers and well wishes.

We had a concert here last week of "American Idol." I`ve been told they signed the fourth panel of this wall, wishing and hoping for Natalee`s safe return.

I`ve also spoken to family members, to Marcia Twitty, the aunt of Natalee Holloway. She says of all of the prayers written on the wall, of course, every one of them touches her deeply, there is one -- she calls them little people, the children, little ones who cannot get high up on the wall and reach.

She says she reads down below by the bottom of the wall. The thing that struck her the most is a saying from a 4-year-old, saying, "Natalee, please come home. Your mommy is crying."

GRACE: People all over the world reaching out to try and help not only Natalee, but her family. You`re right, Anastasiya. But to me, the most important thing that can be done now is to get that DNA result.

Anastasiya, we`ve heard conflicting reports about how much hair was on the duct tape. First, we heard four strands, that there were blonde hairs, that there were darker hairs, that the blonde hairs were 12 inches long. Jug Twitty told me that Natalee`s hair was about 12 inches long.

How much hair was on that duct tape, Anastasiya?

BOLTON: I understand that it was enough tape to send to the Netherlands and to the FBI. Of course, that`s the most important thing, so that both labs can do their testing. And, of course, hopefully later compare notes to get some answers.

GRACE: Jug, we just got confirmation from the prosecutor`s office there in Aruba. Karin Janssen is on vacation. She is in Holland, and she`s not coming back until August the 3rd, August the 3rd.

Let`s see, what`s today? Nobody knows? The 21st? OK. That`s quite a vacation, Jug.

TWITTY: Yes, Nancy. I just absolutely cannot believe that. I mean, I`ll talk to Beth about it to see, or my attorney down there and see -- I mean, nobody has told me that. And if that`s the case, I mean, the world ought to be, you know, outraged at that.

GRACE: Well, I`m outraged. I`m outraged. And I`m also outraged that Delta is now -- takes this time to announce their new nonstop flights to Aruba.

But also, one good side of the double-edged sword regarding the prosecutor`s office, Jug, is that they got rid of Van Der Straten, that lead investigator. Now, that was a happy day for me. Prosecutors all over the country were dancing up and down the halls when Van Der Straten left. Explain.

TWITTY: Well, first of all, let me say -- talk about the Delta thing for a second, because, you know, US Air has been so nice to my family and to my friends. And they`ve offered special flight rates. We asked Delta, and Delta would do nothing, so that settles that, but...

GRACE: And Delta is from your neck of the woods. You`re in Alabama. They`re hub is Atlanta.

TWITTY: They offered to give me a bereavement flight down there for the family only. But, you know, USAir stepped up, David Bonham (ph) sure helped in that, too. But it`s awesome. And I appreciate -- you know, Nancy Lash (ph) has been awesome.

But anyway, on the investigation, yes. I`m glad we got a new team in there. I want them to go back from the beginning. I want the statements from the two uniformed officers that were there with me that night that spent two hours with us, at least their written report that they had that night.

And I want them to dig into Paulus Van Der Sloot. And he`s involved in this. And I want him to dig and dig and find out more information.

GRACE: Karin Janssen, Nancy Grace, former prosecutor. I`m with Headline News. Are you getting a tan in Holland? Because you`re needed back at work right now.

Jug, I don`t recall ever in the preparation of a case taking a vacation, much less a two-weeker. I don`t think I`ve ever even had a two- week vacation. Jug, I`m stunned.

TWITTY: Absolutely. I mean, I`ve never taken off more than a week at a time in my life in any of my jobs that I`ve had. And first of all, for us to have a police chief that`s retired and just drop the case totally, I guess now -- first I heard he was going to stay on. Now he`s going to go to Holland.

And now you`re telling me my prosecutor is going to leave for two weeks, I just don`t know who`s running the show. And I mean, I can`t say until I find out for sure, Nancy. Because it`s hard for me to believe that.

GRACE: Before I go break, I want to go to WBMA-TV reporter Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, do we know what evidence the authorities are going to compare the three suspects` DNA to?

BOLTON: Nancy, it`s hard to say. Since the beginning of this investigation, authorities in Aruba have been very secretive about what they have and what they may not have.

We know for a fact that the evidence collected at the Van Der Sloots` home and in the car that Natalee was last seen at is no help to them in this case. So we hope that they do have something that they`re not telling us about that they can indeed compare to the DNA found on Sunday.

GRACE: Wait. Anastasiya, are you seriously suggesting that the Aruban authorities are keeping a secret?

BOLTON: I`m not suggesting they`re keeping a secret. I`m saying they`ve been tight-lipped or secretive.

Their law does not entitle them, or does not allow them, to speak to the media and speak to the public openly about the case as, of course, it does in the United States. So they`re not telling us what, if anything, they have, as far as evidence is concerned.

GRACE: Anastasiya Bolton, I pray you are correct.

Very quickly to "Trial Tracking." Just a few hours ago, two America West jumbo jet pilots, Thomas Cloyd, Christopher Hughes, convicted of operating a jumbo jetliner while drinking, sentenced in a Florida courtroom.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sentencing you to two-and-a-half years in state prison. Frankly, sir, I have no sympathy.



GRACE: $200,000 offered for Natalee`s safe return; $100,000 now offered for her whereabouts. Her mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, making that announcement today in Aruba.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

I want to quickly go back to T.J. Ward, the private investigator just hired by the Twitty family. T.J., be honest. You`ve handled, I mean, I couldn`t begin to count how many police investigations. Give me a grade on how the Aruban authorities are handling this investigation.

WARD: Well, it`s probably around a D or an F, because, from the beginning of this investigation, there should have been evidence taken by the police. There should have been search warrants issued. And certain information, there should have been recovered.

There may have been a roll of duct tape recovered, and we might have already had the answer, if they would have done what they were supposed to do in the course of a regular police investigation.

There`s people that should have been interviewed that weren`t. There are potential witnesses that were with the Twittys on the night that they arrived that weren`t even interviewed. There`s people that were with her in the bar that weren`t even interviewed that we know of.

So now it`s time to pick up the pieces. And, you know, I`m not trying to hamper their investigation, but I believe that I can work parallel to them and probably give them some additional information to hopefully get them motivated.

GRACE: You know, to Daniel Horowitz, he is right. I mean, what investigator in their right mind would not have already seized -- and I know I`m beating a dead horse here -- would not have already seized the car Natalee had been in.

They waited 11 full days to seize the car, to process the car for forensics. They did not search the homes of the Kalpoe brothers, of the judge`s son, the judge`s office. I want to know tonight, why aren`t they taking the judge`s DNA, Daniel Horowitz? He was once brought in.

HOROWITZ: They should have, Nancy. I mean, you don`t know how she died or where she died, so you collect everything right at the get-go. I mean, for one thing, you know, people don`t die without a struggle when they`re young and healthy like she was.

It could have been blood on Van Der Sloot`s clothing that now is lost forever. Nancy, I think that the U.S. Virgin Islands is a place to vacation. No more vacations in Aruba until they take us, the U.S. investigators, and put them in charge of this investigation and take a back seat where they belong.

GRACE: Jug Twitty, do you think there`s any way, with this enhanced reward, that you are largely responsible for -- Jug, is there any way that this could crack open the trio of the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot?

TWITTY: Well, I hope so, Nancy. Because, I mean, we increased the whereabouts part of it to $100,000. And if -- whatever it takes. You know, somebody is going to talk down there.

And I hope T.J. can get down there, as I say, and make his magic work, because I can`t get anybody to communicate with me, from the police and even the FBI. I know they worked hard, but I think they feel like they can`t tell me, worried about what the Aruban police are going to say if they do tell me.

So T.J.`s kind of neutral there. He can work along with all of them. But he can communicate with me.

GRACE: Jug, we`ve got to go to break. But there`s something I don`t understand about Aruban law. Is it true that they can`t separate the suspects, in other words, give the Kalpoe brothers lenient treatment in exchange for testimony or a statement against Joran Van Der Sloot?

TWITTY: I understand that they cannot do that. I understand that, if you`re talking about giving them a break as far as if they`ll give some information, they say no.

GRACE: Is that correct, Richard Herman?

HERMAN: That`s absolutely correct. They cannot do that, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, everybody, quick break. We are live in Aruba. Also with us is Natalee Holloway`s stepfather, Jug Twitty. Stay with us.



DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED SERIAL "BTK" KILLER: I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, threw up. I got her a glass of water, comforted her a little bit, and then went ahead and tied her up and put a bag over her head and strangled her.


GRACE: BTK -- bind, torture, kill. And sell. That`s right, Dennis Rader, known as the BTK killer, is now selling his stuff on line, making a profit! Could it be true? If so, it is blood money!

On the phone tonight from Cordova (ph), Tennessee, Jeff Davis. Jeff`s mother was a BTK victim. In San Francisco, the director of the Victims` Crime Office for the Houston mayor, Andy Kahan, is with us. He`s an Internet watchdog for years.

But first, let`s go to Wichita, Kansas, and KAKE-TV anchor Larry Hatteberg. He has been on the case since day one. In fact, he knew so much about the case, at a certain point, the cops thought he may be the BTK killer. Clearly, that is not the case.

Welcome, Larry. What the hey is going on? What is this BTK selling on line?

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR: Well, it`s not actually Dennis Rader himself that`s doing the selling. These are letters that Dennis Rader has written to other people, in one case, another inmate inside the Sedgwick County jail. And that inmate took that letter, gave it to his wife, and his wife then posted that particular letter on an auction site -- not on any of the reputable auction sites, like eBay or, but on an auction site that deals directly in murder memorabilia.

And the poem was called "Black Friday." And then that poem was apparently auctioned off. Not that Rader will get any money. He will not get any money from this or from anything that he does.

GRACE: Maybe not today.

HATTEBERG: This is not him doing...

GRACE: Maybe not today he won`t because some inmate was even more cunning than BTK to make a buck off a letter. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. What is "Black Friday"? I`m almost afraid to find out.

HATTEBERG: "Black Friday" is a poem that Dennis Rader wrote, as he refers to the day he got caught.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord!

HATTEBERG: He says -- yes. And he -- the whole poem is about the day that he got caught. And this poem was actually obtained by our television news department. And in it, he basically admits -- and this was before he pled guilty. He basically in this poem admits that he was BTK. He says, quote, "I saw the black side of me was now caught and others would not suffer from my lots."

GRACE: Jeff Davis, we`re showing photos of some of BTK`s victims, the victims that we know of, Jeff. Your mother was one of Rader`s victims. Can you believe he refers to "Black Friday" as the day he got caught?

JEFF DAVIS, SON OF BTK VICTIM: Yes because in his narcissistic world, all he knows is him. And you know, he`s a textbook narcissist, so the sun rises and sets with him. So of course, it was bad day for him. To hell with everybody else, but he finally got nailed. And so, you know, in his own animal-like way, he feels regret for that. He feels no remorse. He`s incapable of that for anybody else because he can`t empathize. But he certainly feels regret that he got caught.

GRACE: You know, it reminds me of the saying, I`m not sorry I did it, but I don`t want to go to hell for it. That`s BTK.

Luckily, we have a psychiatrist with us right now, Dr. Lisa Weinstock. What about BTK murdering all these people? And not just murdering them, Lisa, he would bind them, torture them sexually and then kill them. In fact, in one instance, he had a mother in the bedroom, torturing and killing her, and had the children outside the door, screaming at the door about their mother, and he gave them a blanket and some toys to keep them quiet while he tortured and killed their mother. And he refers to the "Black Friday" as the day he was caught, Lisa.

LISA WEINSTOCK, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you know, I agree with Jeff that`s a very great characteristic. This guy is a complete narcissist and viewed the world around him, viewed other people as just a part of his world. He didn`t really relate to people as their own individual human beings, and so he was able to kill without feeling remorse. He was able to give the kids a blanket because it would keep them quiet and he could do what he needed to do and then kill the kids afterwards. It`s something that most of us just can`t possibly imagine, it`s so far out there.

GRACE: Take listen to this, Lisa.


RADER: I didn`t have a mask on or anything. They were able to ID me. And I made a decision to go ahead and put them down, I guess, or strangle them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, what did you do to Joseph Otero, Sr.?

RADER: Joseph Otero?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joseph Otero, Sr., Mr. Otero, the father.

RADER: I put a plastic bag over his head and then some cords, then tightened it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was in the bedroom?

RADER: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Did he, in fact, suffocate and die as a result of this?

RADER: Not right away. No, sir, he didn`t.


RADER: Well, after that, I did Mrs. Otero. I had never strangled anyone before, so I really didn`t know how much pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take, but...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she also tied up there...

RADER: Yes. Both her hands and her feet were tied up. She was on the bed.


GRACE: Dennis Rader often referred to his victims -- he would stake them out, doing his duties as a dog catcher, ladies, coming in and out of their homes alone. He would stake them out. He referred to them as "projects." He also referred to "putting them down," as if they were dogs.

I want to go to my friend and colleague, Andy Kahan. Andy, I know everybody is saying eBay didn`t sell this letter, but eBay did, is my understanding, have some citations written up by Dennis Rader, I guess, in his capacity as a dog catcher, on sale.

ANDY KAHAN, VICTIMS` CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: Yes. As soon as he was arrested, people started posting notices. Anything that had his signature on went up for sale. eBay watchdogged it. They took them off. But there`s a new Web site, and it`s growing and burgeoning, and this is where I caught someone selling BTK`s letter for sale about a week ago. It went for a little over $100. There was about six or seven people bidding on it.

This is just the beginning of the merchandising and marketing of BTK. I mean, he`s got several things going for him right now. Obviously, as some of your other individuals stated, he`s got delusions of grandeur. He`s an egotistical maniac. He`s got a colorful nickname/moniker. So it`s just a matter of time before he envisions himself as the latest serial killer Rembrandt and begins drawing and people start posting his artwork for sale.

GRACE: Just like John Wayne Gacy. Remember all those -- oh, my God, they were awful! Those pictures of clowns he would draw, and people would actually spend money because his murderous hands had drawn the artwork, Andy.

KAHAN: Almost a millionaire by selling his artwork, and Gacy paintings still to this day go for thousands of dollars. Kansas is going to have to realize that they`re going to need what we call a notoriety for profit law, which means that any items produced by BTK -- for example, letters, autographs, artwork, for sale -- their authorities would be able to seize money. Currently, there are four states that we`ve worked with that have this notoriety for profit law, and unfortunately, Kansas is going to have to get on the bandwagon and realize it before he starts becoming a millionaire.

GRACE: Everybody, Andy Kahan is being modest. He is the author of these notoriety for profit laws. They`ve been enacted in four states. The Son of Sam protections, where killers can`t make money off books, TV screenplays, movies -- that has been reversed by our U.S. Supreme Court in U.S. v Simon and Shuster. But now there`s a way for them to make money, blood money, in other ways, such as selling everything from hair samples to fingernail clippings to their autograph. The killer of Polly Klaas, Andy, Richard Allen Davis, is peddling a picture of himself in his underwear, his tighty-whiteys, and somebody bought it!

KAHAN: Yes. It`s amazing, this industry that`s out there. It`s a burgeoning, booming industry. And you`ve got about -- we`ve contacted about -- there`s about five murder-abilia dealers throughout the country that specialize in making a living of selling and peddling wares of high- profile killers, and now Rader`s become one of them.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, Jeff Davis is with us. His mother was murdered, tortured and murdered, by this man, Dennis Rader. Jeff, what do you think about this guy potentially making money? He didn`t make money on this letter, but mark my words, he will make money, Jeff, behind bars.

DAVIS: Well, that`s all news to me because I thought the Son of Sam took care of that. But obviously, Andy made it clear that that`s not the case. I guess I`m trying to process it right now. I`m thinking the worst case is the cockroach is still going to be in a cell, and I guess if he`s a million-dollar cockroach in an 80-square-foot cell, maybe that`s worth something. But I don`t know what he`s going to do with it. That`s my gut reaction. I think, in a more logical context, obviously, we, all of us involved, have to do something to try to spearhead that effort to have the legislature initiate an effort to -- that -- that...

GRACE: To stop him.


GRACE: With me is Jeff Davis, his mother murdered by Dennis Rader, along with many, many other innocent victims. Stay with us.



CHARLIE OTERO, RELATIVE OF BTK VICTIM: I mean, the law is the law. I understand that. But what`s the difference? The guy killed the people in `94, he can be put to sleep, but the guy who killed somebody in 1993 can`t? I mean, there`s no justice there.


GRACE: The victims` families disturbed, upset, confused about the law. And I`ve got to agree with the famous quote, If that`s the law, then the law is an as. There`s just no two ways about it!

And now to intensify the murder victims` families pain, Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, is selling memorabilia on line. There is a third party broker. He didn`t make money off this letter, but Andy Kahan, you and I agree it`s just a matter of time before Dennis Rader starts raking in the cash. There`s no protection in his jurisdiction.

KAHAN: Oh, absolutely. And from the victims` perspective, it`s like being gutted all over again from the criminal justice system. You know, call it very simplistic, but you just shouldn`t be able to rob, rape and murder and then turn around and make a buck off of it. And Rader -- you know, he`s pretty smart and savvy. He`s obviously extremely cunning to be able to get way with what he did for over three decades. It`s just a matter of time, if he hasn`t already realized, that he can become a huge fixture in the murder-abilia industry.

GRACE: Just like John Wayne Gacy.

Larry Hatteberg, what do you make of it?

HATTEBERG: Well, I`m not that sure he is actually selling through third party brokers. We have never verified that at all. But there is an interesting question about this. Should his wife, Paula, be able to receive the proceeds from the sale of their house? Now, their house just sold at an auction for $90,000. That money has now been put in a fund here in Sedgwick County until the court decides what to do with it. But should the wife of Dennis Rader be able to obtain that $90,000 because, in many ways, she, too, is a victim. So that`s another question that`s coming up in this.

GRACE: I want to go to Richard Herman, defense attorney. I assume that you are defending his right to free commerce and free speech.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, until the courts and the legislature say different, he has the right to do this. And the people that are buying it, they`re probably going to be potential clients of mine because you got to be insane to purchase this type of material.

GRACE: Who are these people, Dr. Weinstock?

WEINSTOCK: It is hard to know. I mean, I think people are fascinated by fame and infamy. So people have always been fascinated by the notorious, by criminals. So it`s really hard to know who particularly is interested in this, although, obviously, it`s not really benefiting anyone other than the people who are making money. And it`s a sad story that we see is happening.

GRACE: Take a listen to Rader in court.


RADER: While I was walking down Hydraulic (ph), I met a young boy and asked him if he could ID some pictures, kind of as a ruse, I guess, or ruse, you`d call it, and kind of feel it out. And I saw where he went. And I went to another address and knocked on the door. Nobody opened the door, so I just noticed where he went and went to that house and went from there.

I went ahead and stripped her, and probably went ahead and -- I`m not sure if I tied her up at that point in time. But anyway, she was nude, and I put her on a blanket, went through her purse, some personal items in the house, figured out how I was going to get her out of there, eventually moved her to the trunk of the car, took some pictures of her. She was already dead, so I took pictures of her in different forms of bondage. And that`s probably what got me in trouble, is the bondage things.


GRACE: I`ve just got to go to Jeff Davis on this. His mother was a BTK victim. Jeff, did you hear that, that that`s what got him in trouble, taking the bondage pictures of one of his naked, dead victims? That`s what got him in trouble? Did he forget about the 10 murders that we know of?

DAVIS: Well, that`s how he compartmentalizes what he does, and that`s how he can play this good side -- I mean, Christian -- that makes me want to throw up, the Christian side of him and the demon side. See, he can separate those actions, and that`s how he can live in normal society with the facade of a normal human being, when in reality, there`s this festering, molding cancer of the soul inside him that committed all the actions. But he`s able to flip back and forth between the two. And so, quote, that one act got him in trouble, is just more compartmentalization and rationalization.

GRACE: The sentencing of Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, is coming up on August 17, just a couple of weeks away.

To Daniel Horowitz. Daniel is a veteran defense attorney, along with Richard Herman. Daniel, what do you expect Rader to say for himself at sentencing? What, cry, act remorseful, say I`m sorry?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Nancy, I mean, it`s very easy to completely 100 percent demonize Dennis Rader. But the reality is, he`s a human being with a mixture of emotions, mostly bad, in terms of how he acted in his crimes. And he`s going to let you know and make everyone listen to the fact that there is a hurt, wounded, caring person who exists with this horrendous, awful monster who kills. And how do we deal with that as a society? How do we reach out to these hurt people and bring out the good person in them and crush and destroy the evil that festers within them?

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! Dusty (ph) -- everybody in this set, when you said "bring out the good person," is disgusted! Not one person did not roll their eyes, look sick, laugh.

Larry Hatteberg, let`s talk about this one moment. He is with KAKE- TV. Larry, isn`t it true that Rader, I think, told you that he was going to show remorse at sentencing, to go ahead and bring your box of Kleenex?

HATTEBERG: That`s exactly what he told me in a phone call. He called my house, and that`s exactly what he told me. I asked him if he had any remorse for the victims, and he said he did and he said he was preparing to apologize. He was going write a speech of some sort, and he`s preparing that right now. And he says he wants to apologize to the victims at sentencing. And then he also said, Bring a box of Kleenex. And that`s a quote.

GRACE: Hey, Horowitz, I got something for you. You may need this at sentencing. I won`t. Rader`s not going to make anybody but Rader cry, and that will be on purpose. What is it, like, a hot, cold water faucet, Lisa Weinstock?

WEINSTOCK: Well, I guess it all depends on what your definition of remorse is.

GRACE: Remorse for himself.

WEINSTOCK: I mean, he probably feels bad that he was caught. He probably feels bad that he did something the society looks at as bad. But I don`t think he felt bad while doing all of this stuff.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone.

And very quickly, to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Adam Mark Zachs, wanted in connection with the murder of a bartender, Peter Carone (ph), in Connecticut, 1987. Zachs, 42, 5-4, 130 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have any information on Zachs, call the FBI, 203-777-6311.

Local news up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the retrial of a multi-millionaire on trial for killing his wife tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.


GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Joshua Jeffries. Just 11 years old, shot in the back, August 2001, while sleeping. Before he died, Joshua walked to the front of the house to warn his aunt there was an intruder. Police still don`t know who killed Joshua. If you have any information on Joshua Jeffries, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to quickly go to Andy Kahan with the Houston Crime Victims` Office. Andy, final thought on Dennis Rader. You know he`s going to make money behind bars. His third party broker actually was an inmate and a relative. They made money off murder.

KAHAN: From a victim`s perspective, it`s incredibly disheartening to find out there`s third parties out there who are hocking items from the most notorious criminals. Rader, like a rabid animal, needs to be put down, and we need to put a stop to this issue called murder-abilia. Criminals shouldn`t be able to profit from committing some of the worst crimes known to humanity.

GRACE: And Jeff Davis -- his mother was a BTK victim, a murder victim. To me, it is -- it`s unthinkable that our society allows you to have to hear that the man that tortured and killed your mom is going to make money, money off her murder.

DAVIS: As repugnant as this animal is, and his ilk, like Gacy and the others,, we could, I guess, expect that kind of debauchery from them. What we need to remember, that if there weren`t those sick, pathetic individuals out there that are profiteering off a social scourge, which I say makes them pimps -- if we don`t recognize that without the demand, there is no market -- there is a huge segment or there is a segment out there of society that has some perverse interest in what these -- these detestable monsters do, and without their interest, there would be no opportunity for...


GRACE: Jeff, you said it more eloquently than I ever could have. I don`t want this guy to make one dollar. I don`t even want him to have a Milky Way out of the vending machine off blood money!

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.