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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for August 8, 2005, CNNHN

Aired August 08, 2005 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Aruba -- 71 days since Natalee Holloway vanished into thin air. Chief suspect, judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, still under intense questioning. Is he finally talking? And tonight: Van Der Sloot could get some company behind bars. Investigators say the two Kalpoe brothers could land back in jail this week. Is there new evidence leading to the Kalpoes` re-arrest?
And tonight: murder Hong Kong-style. It revolves around sex, lies, drugs, abuse. By day, he was a high-powered American banker. By night, he allegedly sexually and physically abused his wife. She`s on trial for murder. She allegedly murdered him with a statue and had a servant wrap him up in an oriental rug. Now, that`s some burial!

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Michael Jackson went free after a California jury acquitted him on multiple counts of child molestation, and now some of the jurors changed their minds and say he`s not (SIC) guilty.

And tonight: high-powered American banker living in Hong Kong bludgeoned to death with a piece of art, a statue. On trial, his wife, who claims she killed after being treated as a sex slave their whole marriage. Defense? Her affair with a TV repairman.

Well, first tonight to Aruba, day 71 in the Natalee Holloway disappearance. Today, prime suspect Joran Van Der Sloot undergoes intense questioning. And are the Kalpoe brothers, last seen with the American girl, headed back to jail to keep Van Der Sloot company? With us tonight in Aruba, Jossy Mansur, managing director and editor of "Diario" newspaper. In New York, defense attorney David Foley. In LA, defense attorney Debra Opri. In New York, psychotherapist Dr. Leslie Austin.

Let`s first go to WBMA, reporter Anastasiya Bolton. Anastasiya, welcome. Bring us up to date.

ANASTASIYA BOLTON, WBMA-TV: Nancy, according to the lead investigator in this case, the Kalpoe brothers may be rearrested as early as this week. The judge has ordered a lead -- not investigator, but a lead witness in this case to give sworn testimony by Wednesday. That witness is a gardener who says that he saw the three, the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot, ducking in the car about 2:30 in the morning the night Natalee Holloway disappeared. The witness was supposed to give sworn testimony last week but never showed up. So if he testifies and, the lead investigator says, if his statement does not change, then the Kalpoe brothers may end up behind bars again.

GRACE: To Jossy Mansur with "Diario" newspaper. Jossy, correct me if I`m wrong that -- didn`t you tell me about the gardener, oh, two-and-a-half weeks ago? What`s the hold-up? Why are they just now talking about rearresting the Kalpoe brothers? To us, this news is almost a month old.

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": Because this gardener gave his testimony, sworn testimony to the police, the investigative team with the police. He never did so to a judge of instruction. Now, the judge of instruction, in order to make up his mind, has to rearrest the two Kalpoe brothers, wants to personally question this gardener. And he wants to see if he`s sticking to his story.

GRACE: Well, OK, if the gardener gave the police a sworn statement, Jossy, then what are they waiting on? This statement clearly places the Kalpoe brothers other than where they said they were. Why are they waiting to rearrest them?

MANSUR: That I don`t know. I`m not a police officer. But I understand that the police believe in the testimony of this witness.

GRACE: Jossy, take a listen to this.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S MOTHER: The facts are that those three individuals and the father have knowledge, and they have got to come forward with it. They see what we`ve been put through. The entire world has been watching for last two months. And we`ve just got -- we`ve got a huge commitment of involvement from FBI, which is wonderful, Holland`s involvement. But the four individuals have to come on.


GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur. Regarding individuals having to come forward -- Jossy, why didn`t the gardener show up in court last week when he was supposed to?

MANSUR: I have no idea as to that. Maybe he got scared. Maybe he didn`t want so much publicity for himself. I have no notion of what happened with him. He was brave...

GRACE: Have you talked to him?

MANSUR: No, I haven`t. But he was brave enough to go to the police and stay there by himself with at least six agents questioning him. He gave all his testimony. He repeated his testimony. He signed the -- what you call it -- (INAUDIBLE), the deposition. And I can`t understand why he didn`t show up in court this time. But he will.

GRACE: To Anastasiya Bolton with WBMA-TV. Anastasiya, we`ve known about the gardener now for about two-and-a-half weeks. I`m wondering what is the slowdown in getting his sworn testimony as to seeing the Kalpoe brothers out that night. And also, should the Kalpoe brothers also be questioned by this team of experts?

BOLTON: The slowdown, we`re not sure. Everything is -- in this case goes on on Aruban time, as we say. They take their time rearresting or investigating certain leads. The gardener just came forward last week, as we understand it. He didn`t show up. Probably, the man is scared. The key here is that the authorities plan to take these sworn statements. So hopefully, by Wednesday, as the judge ordered, he will come back and give the sworn statement. And hopefully, again, his story does not differ from the one that he gave previously. Then the Kalpoe brothers will be rearrested.

One thing I want to mention. I spoke with the representatives for Beth Twitty today. She actually went and met with one of the Kalpoe brothers at the Internet cafe where he works. That happened today. I`ve been told that she`s been waiting to face this person for a very long time. I`ve been told that in the conversation, it was a one-way conversation, where Beth was telling him to come forward with any information. She was basically offering him $250,000, the reward money that has just been raised today for any information leading to Natalee Holloway`s whereabouts.

I`m told that one of the brothers did not even look her in the eye, continued typing on his computer and was -- appeared to be shaking. That`s how nervous he was during that conversation.

GRACE: I want to go out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. Dr. Austin, I wanted to ask you about that originally. Today, Beth Holloway Twitty went to the Internet cafe. There she has to see these two -- one of the two guys, the Kalpoe brothers, walking free, knowing they were last seen with her girl, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. She tried to ask them questions, Leslie. They not only wouldn`t answer, the guy wouldn`t answer, he just kept typing at his computer, like he couldn`t even hear her. What does it mean?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I`m sure that he was terrified that she confronted him directly. And I`m also sure that he`s concerned about his legal rights and he doesn`t want to say anything. I think it`s very, very upsetting for her if he won`t even acknowledge that she`s there and he just ignores her. That`s got to enrage her even more. And I can certainly understand her wanting to go beg them to please come forward with anything they know. This is her daughter, after all. Very painful.

GRACE: Let`s talk a minute about that reward very quickly. Elizabeth (ph), if you can put the reward screen up? The reward has been raised, $1 million for Natalee`s safe return. The other reward for her whereabouts -- $250,000 reward for Natalee`s whereabouts..

To Debra Opri, veteran trial lawyer. Debra, not that I trust that they have, but if the Aruban police had been thinking and strategizing at all, they would have put taps on the Kalpoe brothers` phones. And the thing is, Debra, as you well know, a tap, a wiretap, doesn`t have to be just on your home phone. A tap could be put on the phone of the Internet cafe where they go. They can capture cell phone phone calls, any -- even a public phone, Debra, where the Kalpoes are known to talk, they can tap that. It doesn`t have to be just their home phone.

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`ve opened yet another door of an investigation that probably didn`t go down that avenue. The best thing that I heard coming out of Aruba is that the judge allowed the FBI to see the files, to take a look at the files. What I think there has to be a whole new day, a clean white page. And I think the investigation techniques and tactics have got to change and they`ve got get more aggressive.

And I`m going say this with the utmost respect to the mother of Natalee. Please take a step back. Please refrain from doing all this because at some point in time, she will be interfering in a harmful way with the investigation.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know. David Foley, I agree with only one portion of that. If the authorities don`t want to question the Kalpoe brothers, if I were Natalee`s mother, I`d be on them, just like she is. The reality is, if they remain silent to police, that`s one thing. That may come into evidence. But if they won`t answer the mother and tell her the truth -- David Foley, get real! If they were innocent, why wouldn`t they just tell her what happened?

DAVID FOLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because they`re -- they`ve been -- they`re under suspicion. They can`t talk about it, Nancy. But I understand the -- Natalee...

GRACE: They can continue to talk about it.

FOLEY: They can`t!

GRACE: If they were innocent, they could talk about it.

FOLEY: Oh! They`ve already -- they`re under suspicion. They`re being followed. The Aruban authorities, though...

GRACE: Well, if they`re innocent...

FOLEY: ... they need to just leave this alone...

GRACE: ... why can`t they...

FOLEY: ... and leave it to the FBI and professional authorities, and they should just go back to the beach because maybe in six months, they`ll think about the tap idea that you just mentioned.

GRACE: Well, speaking of the FBI, Anastasiya Bolton, we`re all talking about the FBI being involved -- total BS! It`s my understanding there is only one FBI agent left on the island. And also, they`re showing the FBI agents the files, but they`re not allowed to do anything about it, Anastasiya.

BOLTON: My understanding is, Nancy, that the FBI is still sitting on the interrogation. My understanding is also that they have other resources, rather than the Aruban authorities, to look into this case and examine what they`re hearing. Yes, they`re not allowed to question, but just the mere face of them being able to have access is a huge step in comparison to what we had in the beginning of this investigation.

GRACE: Jossy Mansur, do you believe the Kalpoe brothers are going to be taken into custody? And if so, what will that mean to this investigation?

MANSUR: I`m pretty sure they will be taken back into custody because of the many things that have been said, the many accusations amongst them. This will mean then that the investigation will proceed at a faster pace because then you would have all three suspects back in jail, perhaps confronting each other again when the police do their interrogations.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jossy.


TWITTY: I was able to speak with a witness also that said that Joran Van Der Sloot -- they were offering to give him a ride home at 11:00 PM on the 29th, but he didn`t need one because he had already called Deepak and Satish Kalpoe to pick him up. So that is something that -- you know, we know that Paul Van Der Sloot did not pick him up at 11:00 PM on the 29th. We know now that that correct pick-up time was 4:00 AM on the 30th, and Paul Van Der Sloot stated that he picked them up.


GRACE: So here`s the problem with this gardener`s statement. If we can only get a sworn statement from the gardener, the Kalpoe brothers will likely be rearrested. Debra Opri, from there, it should be just a matter of the dominoes falling one after the next, of them turning on each other. But Debra, let`s talk for a few moments about some of your defendants that you have represented in the past. Here`s this mother. They`re not in jail. They`re not in custody. She comes up. There`s not a cop hanging around. The mom is begging for information. This Kalpoe brother keeps looking away nervously, keeps typing on the computer, and never once, Debra -- never once -- did he deny involvement with Natalee`s disappearance. What does that say to you?

OPRI: Well, it goes to behavioral evidence. That`s it. But you know, there comes a point in time -- and I feel for this mother, but she cannot intentionally interfere with an investigation. It doesn`t...

GRACE: Interfere with what?

OPRI: Let -- let me...

GRACE: Interfere with what?

OPRI: Let me finish my...

GRACE: The cops aren`t doing anything, Debra!

OPRI: Let me finish my statement. First of all, her talking to witnesses and school friends -- great. Do it because the cops aren`t doing it. Her going up to the defendants and confronting them -- that`s a no-no. She should not be doing it. I do not agree with it. And just because they don`t talk to her -- they`ve already been advised by the attorneys, Don`t talk to anyone. And she`s going to put herself in a situation by confronting those accused, the suspects -- she`s going to put herself in a situation where she`s going to be maybe charged with harassment or maybe just told to leave the island.

GRACE: Oh! I just...

OPRI: She`s got...

GRACE: ... dare them!

OPRI: She`s got to back off because she really does not have a great reputation right now with the Aruban populace.

GRACE: To David Foley...


GRACE: To David Foley -- are you guys kidding me? The mom charged with harassment?

FOLEY: Now, the Aruban authorities would...

GRACE: You`re turning the whole world upside down~! Interfere with the investigation? Are you kidding me? What investigation!

FOLEY: There is no investigation. They`re checking under cabanas. They just need to stay out of the way and let professionals like the FBI and the private investigator that the Holloway family hired -- let them do the investigation. Let the other people sit under the palm tree and stay out of the way! Haven`t done anything!

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something. When I think about this mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, having to go out and question suspects, when the police are sitting on their thumb down in Aruba, that`s a sad day. I`m not surprised at all that the legislature in Alabama has called for a boycott on travel to Aruba until they help us find Natalee!

Stay with us.


GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: If -- the story still (INAUDIBLE) is the night that I confronted the judge, so-called judge, and the son and Deepak, and they sit there and told me that, yes, here`s what we did. We took her to the Holiday Inn. Come with me. We`ll show you. We`ll talk to the guards. Of course, the guards never saw them. It`s not on the video. They said -- for nine days before they arrested them, that was the story. And then all of a sudden, they changed the story. And so why did they do that? The whole world knows that.




DAVE HOLLOWAY, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: We`ve heard a lot of different rumors. I mean, when we got on the island, you know, we had a lot of information that, you know, she was here or there or whatever. And all those turned out to be false. But you know, we still hold onto the thread that maybe she`s off somewhere. That`s -- that`s my hope. But the police investigation has always come back and indicated that they`re looking into this as a murder case. But as a father and a parent, you still hold onto a possible miracle.


GRACE: We are closing down on September 4, the day that Joran Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son there in Aruba, will be released if formal charges are not brought against him. This weekend, Saturday, was his 18th birthday. That signifies a legal change.

My question to Jossy Mansur -- he`s the director of "Diario" newspaper there in Aruba -- did the Aruba police give him a birthday cake and sing to him? It was his 18th birthday.

MANSUR: They gave him a pretty good present. They questioned him from morning until 7:30 at night. That was his gift.

GRACE: And what happened? Is he talking yet?

MANSUR: He is -- he`s beginning to talk. He`s talking. He`s answering questions now. He`s cooperating more than ever before.

GRACE: Well, that`s funny because our sources tell us he`s not talking, in fact, that he still pretends he can`t even hear the questions!

MANSUR: No, he is because Friday, he did speak to them. He did answer questions. Saturday, he did again, from our sources. He did again answer some questions. He`s not answering all the questions. He answers those questions that he wants to answer.

GRACE: Oh, well, that should be really helpful.

To Anastasiya Bolton with WBMA-TV -- I understand that Equusearch has left the island. Why?

BOLTON: I`ve spoken with the Equusearch officials this afternoon. They said they basically ran out of money, so they left the island indefinitely. They have vague plans to go back, but without money and support, they will not be able to. I`ve also been told that people on the island would not rent them equipment they needed to dig in the landfill. So that was another reason why they had to leave. They may reassess the situation tomorrow or in the next couple of days and may decide to go back.

GRACE: To Anastasiya -- Lieutenant Roy Tromp says he does not believe Van Der Sloot will be released on September 4 and that, quote, "something major," end quote, should happen soon. What is that, Anastasiya? What is he alluding to?

BOLTON: From my understanding, just from seeing and hearing what has been reported today, he, I think, is hopeful that the Kalpoe brothers may shed some light if and when they are rearrested. If he`s giving testimony -- if Joran is giving testimony, maybe that would lead to something. But again, my sources are telling me he is not being very cooperative, unlike what Jossy is saying.

I`ve spoken with Karin Janssen, the lead prosecutor in this case. She says her investigators are working this case very hard...

GRACE: Oh, is she back from vacation?

BOLTON: ... they`re still looking for leads...


BOLTON: She is back from vacation.

GRACE: Oh, that`s good.

BOLTON: She is back from vacation.

GRACE: The full two weeks vacation.

Very quickly, before we go to break, to Jossy Mansur. Jossy, do you believe Van Der Sloot will be released on September 4? And if not, why not?

MANSUR: Definitely not. They have too many statements by him that incriminate him. How can they let him go?

GRACE: Well, they let the Kalpoe brothers go.

MANSUR: Yes, but that`s another matter. You know, I mean, different judges look at different testimonies, different declarations. And one judge (INAUDIBLE) DeWitt (ph), Bob DeWitt, said, No, hold them. And then here comes another judge and say, Let them go...

GRACE: Well, Jossy...

MANSUR: ... looking at the same amount evidence...

GRACE: Jossy Mansur with "Diario," thank you so much. Anastasiya, thank you. Jossy, please, find the gardener and bring him in. Apparently, the police are not going to. Thanks, guys.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking." Lawyers in the case of high school sweethearts Jessica Coleman (ph), Thomas Trilson, Jr. (ph), charged with the murder of a newborn baby -- those lawyers had closed-door meetings at the courthouse today. The teen couple accused of beating the baby boy before sinking his body in a rock-filled duffel bag.


KARL YOST, LORAIN COUNTY SHERIFF`S DETECTIVE: It`s obvious that, you know, this has been laying heavy on her, you know. And she`s 15 years old when this incident occurred, and walking around with this on your shoulder for six years is a -- is a burden for anybody, you know? And it was obvious (INAUDIBLE) interview that it was something that she was ready to talk about.


GRACE: This was a cold case. Coleman was a high school sophomore when she had the baby February, 1999.


GRACE: High-powered banker located in Hong Kong, an American couple. He ends up basically bludgeoned to death with a piece of art. She says she was kept a sex slave for many, many years, and basically, blacked out at the time of the bludgeoning.

Tonight in New York, "Justice" magazine senior editor Rich Blake (ph), and joining us from Hong Kong, Albert Wong. He is the reporter for "The Standard."

First to Albert. Mr. Wong, thank you for being with us. Where are we in the trial right now?

ALBERT WONG, "THE STANDARD," HONG KONG: We`re in the beginning of the defense case now. Nancy Kissel is standing in the witness box, testifying. She testified earlier last week her version of events, and she is now being cross-examined by the prosecutor.

GRACE: Before we get into the facts, Albert, there in Hong Kong, is it the same type of justice system, the same type of trial she would have had in Great Britain?

WONG: Yes, pretty much the same in Great Britain. People -- the judges are wearing wigs. The barristers are wearing wigs and gowns. And it`s a very, very polite affair. No one...

GRACE: Well, Albert, I was talking less about the wig wearing and more about the...

WONG: All right.

GRACE: ... the jury. Are there 12 people on the jury? Does she have an appointed lawyer? Are there openings and closings? How does it work?

WONG: There are seven people on the jury. There are five men, two women. She`s allowed to appoint her own lawyer. She originally appointed two, but it seems now there`s only one fighting her case at the moment.

GRACE: How do you think she`s doing on the stand?

WONG: She`s visibly very, very nervous. She speaks very softly. And at times, especially today, or my yesterday, when she was cross-examined, she was very emotional and she did break down on several occasions.

GRACE: Do you think there will be any anti-American sentiment? I mean, this is an American couple, very wealthy there in Hong Kong, and her defense is she was a sex slave.

WONG: No, I don`t think there`ll be any anti-American sentiment. I do think, though, however, it is very...

GRACE: Albert, hold on. Quick break. We`ll be right back.


THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I`m Thomas Roberts. NANCY GRACE continues in just a minute. But first, your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Peter Jennings is being remembered today for his five decade-long journalism career. Jennings died of lung cancer last night at his New York apartment. The 67-year-old announced his diagnosis in April when he began chemotherapy. During his 22 years anchoring "World News Tonight," Jennings won several awards, including some 14 Emmys.

The crew of the space shuttle Discovery should be back home by now, but cloudy skies in Florida delayed their landing, keeping them in space for a little while longer. NASA will try tomorrow for an early morning landing. But if weather remains poor, the agency may consider landing sites in California and New Mexico.

Two United Airlines planes are out of service today following an incident at Chicago`s O`Hare Airport. One of the planes clipped the wings of the other United aircraft while getting ready to take off for Washington, D.C. United says passengers from both planes were put on other flights.

That is the news for now. Thanks for joining us. I`m Thomas Roberts.

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

A man that was pulling down millions of dollars a year as a Merrill Lynch banker in Hong Kong has been murdered. His body was found bludgeoned to death and wrapped up in a very expensive oriental rug.

Well, how did that happen? Let`s go straight over to Richard Blake, senior editor with "Justice" magazine.

Richard, let`s talk about the facts for just a moment. This woman`s defense is that he abused her and that she was a sex slave for all the years they were married, right?

RICHARD BLAKE, "JUSTICE" MAGAZINE: Yes. That`s correct, which is in stark contrast to what fellow traders say about Robert Kissel and, of course, what the prosecution would have us believe.

GRACE: Well, now, wait a minute, wait a minute, Richard. Of course, all of his friends at the bank think he`s mild mannered. But whey weren`t alone with him at night, night, after night, after night, after night.

I mean, police did find some crazy websites he was going to, all about deviant sexual practices, gay sexual practices, which, you know, that`s fine. But he`s married to a woman. That presents a tiny bit of a problem, OK?

So, long story short, Richard, the reality is, she came to America for a visit. This American couple living in Hong Kong, she comes all the way home to the states and sparks up an affair with the TV repairman.

BLAKE: Which, apparently, he found out about through a private investigator. And at the time of the murder, the prosecution theorizes that he had confronted her, that enough was enough, he`d found her -- he`d found out about the affair and he wanted a divorce.

GRACE: Well, you know, I think, Albert Wong -- Albert Wong is with us. He`s a reporter from "The Standard." She has got a lot more of a defense to put up other than, "I was a sex slave" to get off on murder.

And the reality is, Albert, not only was there the bludgeoning, with the statue, the piece of art, there was the matter of the strawberry milk shake. You want to tell the viewers about that, Albert?

ALBERT WONG, REPORTER, "THE STANDARD": That`s true, Nancy. The prosecution have alleged that she served her husband and a neighbor a pink milkshake which the neighbor found tasting strange, tasting bitter. And within 15 minutes, he was pretty much unconscious on the sofa.

However, neighbors have also testified that they then saw Robert Kissel playing with his son in the play room in their residential complex and he seemed absolutely fine at the time.

GRACE: My question is this: What do the toxicology reports say regarding the victim`s blood? Were there all the drugs in his blood?

WONG: Yes, well, they found traces of five or six anti-depressants, or hypnotics, in his stomach. However, they do concede -- these are the government chemists -- they do concede that there`s no way of knowing the quantity of those drugs. And also, the defense suggests that, well, this is a banker who travels often, has migraines...


GRACE: He`s got five different drugs in his stomach?

Richard Blake, the neighbor and him both had this strawberry milkshake she makes. The neighbor passes out on the sofa, just dead to the world. And the other guy has five drugs in his bloodstream. She`s the only one that has no drugs in her bloodstream. And nobody can figure this out, Richard?

BLAKE: She said that she just served up a milkshake to her kids and there was no -- there was nothing in it. So, you know, she contends...

GRACE: Well, then, how did the neighbor end up passing out after a milkshake?

BLAKE: That`s an excellent question. The prosecution is going to continue to drive home the point that she was confronted with his wishes to end the marriage...

GRACE: Richard, Richard, Richard, the milkshake, the milkshake. The neighbor comes over, drinks this strawberry milkshake, passes out. What more...

BLAKE: And so does Robert Kissel, apparently, at the foot of the bed, the prosecution would have us believe, at which point that she bludgeoned him.

GRACE: Debra, OK, all right, Debra Opri, forget about the strawberry milkshake and all the drugs in his stomach. All I`ve got say, two words: TV repairman. There`s the defense. There it is.


GRACE: If she`s some sex slave and she`s miserable, she`s over here with this -- in the states with her kids, husband in Hong Kong, why not just get a divorce and run off with the TV repairman?

OPRI: All right. If I were representing her, I`d say, "I killed him. I hit him, because at the moment I hit him, I believed he was going to kill me," period. Now, if you look at all of the elements, the statue, if she was planning a murder, she would have done it a lot better than that.

GRACE: You wouldn`t have said, "I, Debra Opri, was a sex slave so I had to bludgeon my husband with a statue"?

OPRI: I wouldn`t discuss my personal life in a courtroom, no, of course not.


GRACE: You`re so right, because this is altogether a bad trial strategy. She should have gone with self-defense.

OPRI: It is. It is. Self-defense. She can change it. She can change it. All she needs to do is say, "Look, if I were planning on murdering him, I wouldn`t have done it this way. I wouldn`t have grabbed at this kind of an object. I wouldn`t have prepared a milkshake where there`s going to be traces of this with a neighbor in him."

I don`t think it happened that way. I think this guy brutalized her. And at that moment, when she swung at him, the first swing -- and I`ll tell you what the problem is in a second -- when she swung that first swing and it got him, and he came after her again, she took the second swing. The question she has to answer is, why the third, fourth and fifth swing?

GRACE: OK, David Foley, do you really think he came after her after he had that milkshake full of drugs? And we also have her on the Internet looking up all the drugs. She says she wanted to commit suicide.

Why do people always say they want to commit suicide and then other people around them drop like flies?

DAVID FOLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was a perfect swine and a monster. I think it`s understandable that you wouldn`t want to spend another day with this guy. And if she did this in self-defense, she should get a medal, not a charge for murder, because this guy was nothing but garbage and a monster.

GRACE: My question to you is -- let me rephrase, counselor -- if he had had this strawberry milkshake laced with five different drugs, and he`s lying down passed out just like the neighbor was, you really think he put up a fight?

No way. She bopped him on the head and he was a goner. And plus, if this were a big accident, how he did end up wrapped up in the oriental rug in the basement?

FOLEY: Because what happened was...

GRACE: He fell on the rug and it started rolling?

FOLEY: Nice. What happened was that he abused cocaine, he abused drugs on a regular basis. It`s in his system, but how it got in his system, what he put in his own system himself -- and this was a vicious fight. In terms of self -- in terms of self-defense, he had a baseball bat, for heaven`s sake.

GRACE: Yes, in the closet.

Hold on, Ellie, was there any evidence hat there was cocaine in his system?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not that I know of.

GRACE: OK. The judge here`s saying there is no evidence of cocaine in his system.

David, did you just grab that out of thin air?

FOLEY: No. Because she had testified that...

GRACE: Because she said so.

FOLEY: ... he had abused cocaine in the past. So that, based on that, just because it was not in his system at this moment -- he`s a drug abuser. He`s someone who abuses substances, alcohol...

GRACE: Albert Wong...

FOLEY: And his preppie bankers are all going to say he`s a wonderful guy. What a shock.

GRACE: Albert Wong is with us. He`s a reporter with "The Standard." Was there any evidence that this guy, this banker from Merrill-Lynch, who had just found out about the TV repairman, was asking for a divorce that day, was there any evidence he was a dope addict?

WONG: They have not made the relevant tests to make sure whether he had cocaine or not. That is something the cross-examination, the defense in cross-examination has questioned the police about, that they never made the appropriate tests for cocaine or other substances.

GRACE: So...

WONG: Otherwise, they say no, there was nothing...


GRACE: So, Albert, the only evidence that this victim had ever used an illicit drug is coming from the defendant herself, the one who also claims she was a sex slave.

WONG: At the moment, yes.



GRACE: OK, Richard Blake, got anything to add to that?

BLAKE: Well, I mean, let`s remember who the victim was here, Robert Kissel. I wouldn`t describe him as a monster. He was a trader, not a banker. He worked for a bank. He was trusted with hundreds of millions of dollars and worked very long hours.

The whole thing`s a tragedy. They have young children.

GRACE: Who has the kids?

BLAKE: Not much more to add than that.

GRACE: Who has the kids, Richard?

BLAKE: The kids are back here in the states, I believe, with her relatives.

GRACE: Hey -- Richard is with "Justice Magazine" -- Richard Blake, question: If she`s convicted, even though it is under British law there in Hong Kong, she would serve out a life sentence there in Hong Kong prison, correct?

BLAKE: That is correct. Unless possibly the jury is given the option to give her a lesser charge, perhaps grievous -- intention to commit grievous bodily harm.

GRACE: I thought you were going say unless the jury gives her the death penalty.

BLAKE: No, no. You know, this is a tragic case. She`s obviously putting on a strong defense.

GRACE: OK. With me, Richard Blake, senior editor with "Justice" magazine, and our guest, Albert Wong, reporter with "The Standard" there in Hong Kong. We`ll keep you posted on the story as this defense rages on.

When we get back, some of the Michael Jackson jurors now say, "Whoopsie, he really is guilty." Stay with us.



RAYMOND HULTMAN, JUROR IN JACKSON SEX CASE: We actually challenged one another in the deliberation room. I mean, it wasn`t -- I don`t want to give the impression that this was a really slam-dunk deal where you just go in to a room and 12 people agree.

I don`t think 12 people can agree on anything except that the sun might come up tomorrow morning. And beyond that, you`ve got to talk about it.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

Michael Jackson jurors now speaking out, claiming -- ruh-roh! -- maybe they made a mistake. Maybe he was guilty after all. But legally, is there any recourse for the prosecution?

Tonight in L.A., "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell.

Jane, what the hey is going on?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Nancy, this is absolutely shocking and outrageous. Really disturbing stories about the jurors in the Michael Jackson case. The "New York Daily News" reports that two of the jurors who are writing books say that Michael Jackson, they believe, was guilty.

And in fact, one of the books is even called, "Guilty as Sin, Free as a Bird." That is being written reportedly by 79-year-old juror Eleanor Cook. And she is said to outline a whole slew of juror misconduct.

Get this. She says she snuck in a medical text right into jury deliberations in an attempt to show her fellow jurors that Michael Jackson fit the classic profile of a pedophile.

But she also goes on to say that she literally winked -- winked -- at Katherine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s mother, in court. And they even exchanged wardrobe tips and got to the point that they were wearing the same color to court on certain days.

But, Nancy, the most shocking and outrageous charge actually concerns you, because one juror reportedly snuck in a copy of a Court TV episode starring none other than yourself and your colleague, Diane Dimond. And the only reason they didn`t get it to play is they couldn`t get the VCR to work.

Now, I spoke to a source today very closely connected to this case, and that person confirmed there was, in fact, and in-camera, in-chambers hearing about that last incident. All sides attended and apparently decided, since nobody actually saw that videotape of Court TV, they were not going to expel the juror who brought it in. But pretty amazing and shocking stuff.

GRACE: You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, as if that`s not enough -- Elizabeth, do we have that sound ready?

Remember this, Jane Velez-Mitchell? You were with me that night. Take a listen.


GRACE: Mr. Rodriguez, I understand the theory of reasonable doubt. I was a prosecutor many years. But before I let you go, I got a question for you. What do you think Jackson, Michael Jackson, 40-year-old man, was doing with these little boys all those nights in bed alone?

PAUL RODRIGUEZ, JACKSON JURY FOREMAN: Well, that`s a personal view that I don`t want to talk about right now, because we all have our thoughts.

GRACE: No, sir, you tried him for that. He was tried. You were on his jury. That`s what he was accused of. What do you think he was doing?

RODRIGUEZ: I know. And that`s why I say we had to just rely on the - - I`m not going stick my neck out there on this. I`m going base it again on the testimony that was presented to us, and there was too much reasonable doubt.

GRACE: But what you to mean "stick your neck out"? What do you mean "stick your neck out"? You don`t want to say what you thought Jackson was doing with those little boys every night?

RODRIGUEZ: Because it`s our own personal beliefs, our own thoughts. And that`s not what we have to work with. We had to work with the testimony of the witnesses and the credibility of the witnesses, and that`s all we can base it on, this whole thing.

GRACE: So what you believe -- you`re telling me what you believe doesn`t matter?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes, it does matter, but I`m not going to go any further with that.


GRACE: Very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell. The reality is, they`re writing books titled -- now, what was the one, "Guilty as Sin," and what? "Free as a Bird."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Guilty as Sin, Free as a Bird." And I heard other jurors and alternates echo what that juror said, that they had a feeling, but feelings aren`t fact.

Well, another disturbing report is that there were a cabal of three female jurors who apparently felt that Michael Jackson was innocent about a third through the trial and would use phrases like, "Not my Michael."

Now, what disturbs me about this is that they`re not supposed to be talking about who is guilty or innocent one-third of the way through the trial. It seems that, if these reports are true, there was rampant juror misconduct.

And I have to tell you. I`ve spoken to some colleagues, fellow reporters, today, and we were all watched like we were criminals going in and out of this court, frequently frisked. We were afraid to put a candy in our mouth, if we were coughing. And yet, jurors can sneak a book and a videotape into the deliberation room?

It`s sort of see no evil, hear no evil, when it comes to the jurors. But we were treated like we were about to do something dangerous any second. Now, where`s the fairness in that?

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.


GRACE: What do you think a grown man up in his forties is doing sleeping with one little boy after the next, all by himself, locked up in his bedroom, every night? That doesn`t bother you? It bothers me.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes, it bothers us a lot. It bothers us a lot. But, again, like I said, we discussed our feelings, our beliefs, and our thoughts. And we cannot base a judgment on anyone that`s up there as a defendant.

We had to go with what we had as evidence. And if some of the evidence would have been presented or looked into a little more and given us a little bit more to work with, then this whole thing might have been turned around.

PAULINE COCCOZ, JUROR IN JACKSON SEX TRIAL: What mother in her right mind would allow that to happen, you know, just freely volunteer your child, you know, to sleep with someone? And not just so much Michael Jackson, but any person, for that matter?

GRACE: To David Foley, even though the juror changed their minds -- or members of the jury has changed their minds, would that make any difference under the law?

FOLEY: It won`t make a difference. If Michael Jackson was convicted, Nancy, we certainly would get into these issues, in terms of appeal, with this. But the woman who wrote the book basically confessed to a crime. If she brought in that book during jury deliberations, she took an oath, she certified to the oath, and the other jurors also would have had a responsibility to report that information to the court.

GRACE: Debra?

OPRI: All right. Let me just put it out there.

Number one, I`m disgusted, because two jurors admitted jury misconduct because they`re selling books. I spoke to Mr. Raymond Hultman the day of the verdict after he was on your show.

And I said to him, "Thank you for the time you took to deliberate." And he said to me, quote, "Well, ma`am, the evidence just wasn`t there. We couldn`t have gone any other way."

And then, two months later, this same man who seems to like the limelight from this case is out pandering a book. And he`s saying what he needs to say to get the book deal. Now, that "Daily News" article was a little incorrect.

That woman, Nora -- whatever her name is -- she enjoyed her time on the jury. I sat in that audience when that jury was being interviewed by the media. And she loved it.

And she was the one who said, "Hey, don`t you snap your fingers at me, lady," referencing the mother. And this is a woman who now is pursuing her book and admitting to everyone she committed a crime. Judge Melville should prosecute both of them, both of them.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back. Stay with us.


GRACE: A jury acquitted Michael Jackson on multiple counts of child molestation. Now, in order to hock some books, some of the jurors claimed they`ve changed their minds. Incredible.

Debra Opri, you were talking about one female juror that you said was loving the limelight. Take a listen to this, Debra. I want to see if this is her.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I disliked it intensely when she snapped her finger at us.

COCCOZ: Every time that we came up to a stopping point, we all had to remind ourselves that we have a closet full of evidence that really made us always come back to the same thing. It was just not enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt that there was enough reasonable doubt there.

COCCOZ: We expected probably better evidence, you know, something that was a little more convincing. And it just wasn`t...


GRACE: To Debra Opri, was the first juror the one talking about snapping fingers, is that the lady juror?

OPRI: Yes. Nancy, I was in that courtroom when she said that. And she was doing her comedy show. She`s the same one who allegedly said to someone -- it was quoted in the "Daily News" -- that she had eye contact with my client, Katherine Jackson, and that they exchanged wardrobe tips.

My client, Katherine Jackson and Joe Jackson, never had a conversation with her. They never crossed paths. But that lady was winking at a lot of people, me included, Diane Dimond.

GRACE: I believe you on that, 200 percent. I just don`t see Katherine Jackson rearranging her wardrobe with a juror. How would they have done it anyway, unless they were talking on the phone? Don`t buy it, too.

Dr. Leslie Austin, Doctor, this woman now selling this book -- what was the name of it, "Guilty as Sin, Free as a Bird" -- she`s the one that was angry because the mom snapped her fingers during testimony.

AUSTIN: I have to tell you, this whole thing just totally enrages and disgusts me. These jurors are so out of integrity. If they believed that he was guilty, they should have convicted despite the pressure from the other jurors. They should have gone for a mistrial or a hung jury.

And if they didn`t believe that he was guilty, what are they talking about now? So there`s a lot of misconduct here, either way you look at it. And it`s just disgraceful.

GRACE: Well, under the law, it`s all she wrote. And I`m talking about Lady Justice. There will be no retrial. There will be double jeopardy under our Constitution.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with all of us tonight, inviting us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.