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Nancy Grace

Who Is Fourth Man Behind Bars in Holloway Case?; Intense Search for Patrick McDermott Under Way

Aired August 29, 2005 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, is there a break in the Natalee Holloway missing girl case after the stunning re-arrest of Deepak and Satish Kalpoe? The Kalpoe brothers suspected of the murder and rape of the 18-year-old beauty from Alabama.
And who is the fourth suspect now behind bars?

Tonight, the intense search for Olivia Newton-John`s long-time love, Patrick McDermott. Even more baffling, McDermott missing off a one-night fishing trip off the California coast. Big piece of the puzzle, did McDermott get off the boat alive?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, the Southeast hard-hit by Hurricane Katrina. We`ll have live coverage of the path of destruction throughout tonight`s show.

And tonight, intense mystery surrounding the disappearance of music icon Olivia Newton-John`s long-time love, Patrick McDermott. Vanished after a one-night fishing trip but now conflicting reports about the moment he actually went missing.

And tonight, we are on a verdict watch in Montana versus daycare owner Sabine Bieber. Bieber on trial for the death of 1-year-old baby Dane Heggem. Alleged murder weapon: cold medicine. Alleged motive: to make the baby shut up and take a nap. We go live to that Montana courtroom.

But first to Aruba. Rape and murder suspects Satish and Deepak Kalpoe back in jail again where they belong. Tonight, the clock is ticking. Five days and counting before prime suspect judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot could walk free. Tonight in Aruba, Natalee`s mother and stepfather Beth and Jug Twitty. In Jonesboro, Arkansas, Natalee`s aunt, Linda Allison. In Denver, Colorado, defense attorney Lisa Wayne. In Seattle, defense attorney Anne Bremner. In New York, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. But first, to "A Current Affair" correspondent Harris Faulkner.

Harris, a lot happening. Bring us up to date.

HARRIS FAULKNER, "A CURRENT AFFAIR" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, really a lot, Nancy. "A Current Affair" has learned the name of the third guy arrested on Friday along with the Kalpoe brothers. We knew his initials were FZA, we knew his name might be Freddy. Tonight we know it`s Freddy Zedan Arambatzis. And I talked with this man`s attorney actually.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What? Freddy what?


FAULKNER: Zedan Arambatzis.


FAULKNER: ZA. So we were able to confirm that. "A Current Affair" talked with his attorney earlier today to see why he might have been picked up on the same day with the Kalpoe brothers. Because you remember on Friday, Nancy, really, all the way through the weekend, there was a lot of speculation on whether or not he had anything to even do with Natalee Holloway`s case.

I`ll tell you the big connection. He`s very good friends with Joran Van Der Sloot. In fact, "A Current Affair" has some exclusive photos of the two of them together. But meanwhile, his attorney is saying, however, that he was picked up on a different charge, a different case, not related to Natalee Holloway. We`ll have to see how that plays out. That`s thing number one.

Thing number two, that party boat deejay, remember Steven Croes?


FAULKNER: Well, a camera crew spotted him coming out of the police station today, thought maybe he`d been re-arrested. Apparently he told the camera crew, no, I just went to pick a few things up. However, "A Current Affair" got a call from his mother earlier today saying she was concerned that her son might have been re-arrested. So we`re still working to see what the plan is there.

I thought he`d been exonerated. "A Current Affair" was the only station to talk with him, the only network to talk with him when he got out of prison the first time he was arrested. He told me on camera, Harris, I`ve been exonerated, I have no reason to think I`ll be a further suspect in this case. That was over a month ago.

Back at the police station, Nancy, we`re not quite sure why. He says he`s picking something up. His mom says she`s worried.

Third thing going on, the divers, what they found yesterday as they searched about a mile off the coast of Aruba. One of the volunteer searchers had said that he saw something with sonar that looked like it might be human bones. It turns out to be nothing.

GRACE: Another disappointment.


GRACE: One of our producers caught up with Paul Van Der Sloot, the Aruban judge whose son is the chief suspect in Natalee`s disappearance, and this is what he had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How`s Joran holding up?


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And you and your wife, are you holding up all right?

VAN DER SLOOT: We have also a difficult time.


GRACE: Here. Have one. They`re having a difficult time? Let`s talk to Beth Twitty tonight, joining us is Natalee Holloway`s mother, Beth Twitty, her husband Jug.

Thank you very much for being with us, Beth. So much happening. What do you think this means, the arrest of the Kalpoe brothers, and what do you have to tell us tonight -- Beth.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: Well, Nancy, I would imagine that it means that they`ve gathered new evidence to warrant this re-arrest of the Kalpoe brothers. And there`s no way you`re going to convince me that Freddy`s arrest is a coincidence. You know, I`ve seen his name surface throughout my documentation that I`ve been keeping since as early as June 15th, so.

GRACE: So the FBI, or the Aruban authorities, one, gave you Freddy`s name way back at the very beginning?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: His name has been mentioned in my documentation on at least three occasions. So I don`t know what the connection is other than it happens to be one of Joran`s closest friends, and I think lived behind him. But other than that I don`t know.

GRACE: Well, Jug, what do you think about the theory that he may be a suspect -- I mean, excuse me, a witness in this case? That either Joran Van Der Sloot, one of the Kalpoe brothers, told him something or he observed something around the night Natalee went missing?

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, NATALEE`S STEPFATHER: I don`t know, Nancy. I mean, if you`re Joran`s best friend, I`m sure they`ve talked some, especially during the days that they -- between the 30th and the 10th, or whenever they arrested him. So I`m sure he talked to him about it. I don`t care what the case is, I don`t care what they have him in there for. I`m glad that they have him in there and hopefully it will help us find Natalee.

GRACE: Jug, it was my understanding that for them to make this additional arrest, there had to be new evidence. What`s the new evidence? What do they know now they didn`t know back in June?

TWITTY: I don`t know. They don`t share all that with us. I mean, that`s part of the investigation. My mission coming down here was to get a meeting with the prosecutor, which Beth and I had yesterday, and we had a long meeting with the prosecutor. And I feel like that there were -- that the police do have a lot of things working right now, and, you know, I feel that they`re really digging into this case.

GRACE: Well, another update regarding someone you all know very well by now, the managing director of Diario newspaper, Jossy Mansur. Take a listen to this.


JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING DIRECTOR, DIARIO: What I understand from the sources that we have at the newspaper, the police went back to square one. They know they have a tough case to prove at this point on murder first degree or whatever.

Then they went back, they went to square one, they reviewed everything that was on the table, and then they decided that with the evidence they already have that is based on the admissions that all three of them made to the police during those days of interrogation, that they have a sufficiently strong case to re-arrest them and take them to court on charges of sexual assault.


GRACE: Well, surprisingly, Harris, Jossy Mansur is allegedly being sued by the Aruban prime minister for defamation. Bye-bye, freedom of press.

FAULKNER: Well, you know, Nancy, "A Current Affair" had learned a while ago that Mr. Oduber was having some challenges in the polls. He`s got a re-election as prime minister coming up in late September. And so he`s been riding hide over everything that`s been published.

Diario isn`t the only newspaper on the island of Aruba, but it certainly is the most read, in our estimation. But he`s watching very closely. His political future is at stake here. Jossy Mansur is very high-profile on the island.

By the way, he`s in the hospital tonight, we understand, with some sort of heart ailment. We`ve been following that as well to see what happens with him. We certainly wish him the best.

But the contention in our estimation might be over the political career of Mr. Oduber and how he`s been portrayed in the newspaper. You know, separate from the Natalee Holloway case, he is running a political campaign. With the Natalee Holloway case, her disappearance happened on his watch.

You know, we didn`t even see him start to really pressure the government to let the FBI in on this case until a few weeks ago. And from what I understood and reading in the polls, that was good timing for Mr. Oduber.

GRACE: Yes. I saw that letter that he wrote, the prime minister, misspelling Natalee`s name two times in one letter. Has anybody heard of spell-check in Aruba? So that`s how you get re-elected there, you sue people that speak out against you for defamation?

FAULKNER: Well, you know, I think it`s just posturing.

GRACE: If that were true, both Bill Clinton and George Bush would have thrown me in jail a long time ago. Go ahead.

FAULKNER: It`s just posturing, I think, at this point. You know, we can`t possibly know every detail that`s at the heart of this. This would be a long-running relationship. Both these men have been public figures a long time.

GRACE: OK. Just give me the short end of the stick on this. When`s the re-election?

FAULKNER: I believe it`s September 23rd.

GRACE: OK. September 23rd.

FAULKNER: Late September. But that date sticks in my mind.

GRACE: All right. And Natalee went missing during this prime minister`s watch, correct?

FAULKNER: Absolutely.

GRACE: And Jossy Mansur`s newspaper has been reporting on it, correct?

FAULKNER: Well, and pushing harder than anybody to get answers, I would say.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I think I`ve got an accurate picture of what`s going on. Back to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney. Lisa, unlike in America, I`m not sure in Aruba, can you bring a criminal case based on a defendant`s confession alone?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The confession alone is not going to be good enough, Nancy. There`s going to have to be something else.

GRACE: Legally, is it not allowed in Aruba?

WAYNE: It isn`t. They`re going to need more than that. But what`s happened and what appears is going on here is that you`ve got to remember down there in the initial phases the judge is actually the investigator in this case.

So a defense attorney cannot ask that anything be suppressed. The judge weighs all of it. The cops can beat confessions out of people down there. They can do whatever they need to do to end up getting what they want out of this case in terms of statements.

And that can all be considered by the judge in this initial phase. So it`s very different. They don`t have Miranda. They don`t have those limitations that we have in this country. But they`re going to need more.

GRACE: So bottom line, even if a confession is beaten out of somebody, there`s no jury. A judge will hear it and give it the appropriate weight of whether a statement was made behind bars. Got you.

Back to Beth Twitty, Natalee`s mother and stepfather are with us tonight. Beth, from the very beginning you told me on HEADLINE NEWS air that you thought Joran Van Der Sloot and the two Kalpoe brothers were involved in Natalee`s disappearance. Why have you thought that, been so sure from the very beginning?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, you know, the main thing is, Nancy, is Joran`s admission on the night that we arrived on the island. First off. I mean, this is as early as 2:00 or 2:30 a.m. on the 31st, he`s admitting these sexual acts that he committed against Natalee in the car with Deepak and Satish. I don`t think it`s been a secret from day one.

GRACE: But why are you so convinced, because of their conflicting statements?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: I mean, I`m not -- I mean, I`m convinced that early on he was already, you know, locking himself into this. I mean, nobody forced him to admit this to us. He just volunteered this information, came forward with a whole group of witnesses in front of two uniformed officers and DEA on the island.

GRACE: Beth, what was his first story to you? What was the first story they told you?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: The first story -- and you know, Nancy, I was not in the group when they were giving this information. Jug and the rest of the group that flew in with us were there. But he was stating that he had dropped Natalee off, and that he and Deepak and Satish had dropped her off at the Holiday Inn, when she got out of the car she stumbled, fell, hit her head, got up, and two security guards met her there at the entrance.

And you know, Deepak was standing right there. And we were even taken to the Holiday Inn and parked in front of the entrance to the Holiday Inn to show us that that`s where they had dropped her off. I mean, it`s right when you walk into the Holiday Inn.

And then as everyone knows, on June 2nd I reviewed the video footage of the people coming into the Holiday Inn, and Natalee Holloway -- Natalee never entered the Holiday Inn.

GRACE: To Jug Twitty. Jug, do you think there`s any way on God`s green earth that these two brothers have remained silent while they were out from behind bars?

TWITTY: That they`ve remained silent?


TWITTY: Well, I hope they haven`t. I mean -- but you know, the way this whole investigation`s going it seems that way. You know, what I wish, Nancy, is I wish what should have happened in this thing is Paul Van Der Sloot should have been a man, he should have stepped forward in the beginning. He should have talked to Joran that night. They should have admitted that something went wrong out there, which I know he knows that happened.

And if he would have come forward and said Joran did this, it`s a terrible mistake, it`s an accident, he`s still underage, he`s a minor, even if they killed Natalee he probably would have gotten off with about five years. Paul could have held -- kept his job, and we could have gone on with our lives, you know, or whatever.

But this guy, Paul Van Der Sloot is so thick in this thing it`s unbelievable. And you know, my mission is to keep pressure for them to keep asking questions of Paul because he knows more than he`s saying.

GRACE: Well, you know, Jug, here`s the other thing, if you give any credence whatsoever to not only the gardener that Jossy Mansur located who`s given a sworn statement to police and a judge or to the tipster, the jogger, both of them totally contradict Judge Paul Van Der Sloot`s statement, both of his statements as to when he picked up his young son. So I don`t understand. If the others get dragged in, why not Judge Van Der Sloot?

TWITTY: Absolutely. I agree. I mean, I asked the question yesterday to the prosecutor. I said, when you went in and you searched the house, did you search Paul`s house? They said, no. I said, why? Because, he said, we couldn`t. He said, you could search Joran`s apartment which is detached from the house. But any -- I don`t know. I`m really frustrated with that part of it.

GRACE: You know, absolutely. I don`t understand it. That is not the case law in America. It is called the curtilage search. Curtilage. If you can search a home, you can search surrounding houses around it such as the garage, a tool shed, an apartment house, a pool house, completely in contradiction to U.S. law.

Everybody, we`ll all stay right here. We are live in Aruba tonight. But very quickly to hurricane tracking. Hurricane Katrina making her way across the Gulf Coast, plowing through New Orleans with torrential rain, fierce winds. Part of the Superdome`s roof already peeled away with thousands taking shelter there. If you have fallen victim to Katrina, now a tropical storm, apply for disaster relief by contacting FEMA, Federal Emergency Management Agency, toll-free. 1-800-621-FEMA. Or click online


GRACE: We are tracking Katrina, now a tropical storm, pounding the Gulf Coast. Today sweeping through Mississippi and Louisiana with winds over 100 miles an hour. Trees ripped apart like toothpicks, flooding, damage, common sight tonight in this tormented part of the country. If you need assistance, call the Red Cross. 1-800-HELP-NOW.

Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Aruba and the latest in the case of Natalee Holloway. Her mother and stepfather are with us tonight.

To Beth Twitty. Beth, where were you when you heard the Kalpoe brothers had been re-arrested?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, Nancy, I was so grateful but I was in Birmingham when I heard the news. I thought that was a great place for me to be when the news was handed down. And I had returned home just for a brief period of time. We had a silent auction, and also I have got a 16- year-old son Matt that I went to be with for just a few days.

GRACE: Speaking of the silent auction, I want to go to Linda Allison, that is Natalee`s aunt. What can you tell us about the silent auction? What was it for? Where does the money go? And what type of items were auctioned?

LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE`S AUNT: Well, Nancy, the fund-raiser that was held was in Birmingham, Alabama. And it was just a phenomenal event. I was just overwhelmed by the generosity of everybody there and the community of Birmingham.

We had silent auction items that ranged anywhere from sports memorabilia to celebrity and musical items. And Courteney Cox was behind this event and was able to contact some of the family there in Birmingham and told them that she would like to help with this fund-raiser. And it was just, again, a phenomenal event.

GRACE: Where does the money go, Linda?


ALLISON: . by all the -- the money will go to help towards the expenses that we have in Aruba. A lot of attorney fees will be coming from that as well as other expenses just there being on the island, not only hotel expenses but just transportation to and from Aruba.

GRACE: And not only that, the cost of the continuous searching for Natalee. We had EquuSearch down, we had another private group searching, Aruba Search and Rescue is a private group. It`s not the government searching. Here in America our government helps search for missing people. They try to locate bodies. In Aruba, Natalee`s family is shouldering a lot of the cost of the search for Natalee Holloway. We are live in Aruba. Stay with us.


GRACE: As you know by now, Katrina pummeling the Gulf Coast, sweeping through New Orleans, pounding rain, fierce winds. Part of the Superdome`s roof peeled away, thousands taking shelter there. If you have fallen victim to Katrina, tropical storm, apply for disaster relief, contacting FEMA, 1-800-621-FEMA, or online at

Quickly to Robi Ludwig. It just seems to me the psychology here is almost like a good old boys` club. Yes, we can search Joran Van Der Sloot`s apartment but not his dad`s house. Why not?

ROBI LUDWIG, PYSCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I wonder if there`s some political power that Paul had that somehow stopped people from exploring his home. He was a very important person back in the day. So that could have frightened the investigation from really exploring all the various areas they should have explored.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, I`ve only got a couple of seconds before break. What about the search of Joran Van Der Sloot`s apartment but not the family home?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know. But you know, this is Aruba. I keep thinking as I`m listening to this, Nancy, miles from nowhere, chasing shadows, twists and turns to nowhere in this investigation.

And even with the re-arrest of the Kalpoe brothers, where are we now? I don`t know if we`re in any different position than we were months ago in this case.

GRACE: Back to Harris Faulkner. Speaking of back at square one, what happens later in the week? Is Joran Van Der Sloot coming to court? Will the Kalpoes be in court?

FAULKNER: Well, the Kalpoe brothers are expected to go back to court by the end of the week because they`re on that eight-day timetable for having to go before the judge in that time. Of course, they were arrested on Friday, that would be eight days later.

And I know we`re running short on time, Nancy, but I do want to mention that Deepak told "A Current Affair" when we visited his Internet cafe a few weeks ago that he felt confident that he and his brother, Satish, would walk. They probably are pretty surprised to find themselves back in prison.

By the way, they were moved from jail to prison, we understand, sometime over the weekend. They`re now back at KIA Prison, the same place Joran is being housed.

Deepak told "A Current Affair" that he thought that he might want to sue for the computers and other things that they had confiscated when they searched his home all those weeks ago the first time those young men were arrested. He really felt confident they would be walk.

GRACE: OK, OK. Wait a minute. Jug Twitty, did you hear that? They want to sue over their computer?

TWITTY: I mean, it`s unbelievable, Nancy. I mean, you see it. America and the world sees it.

GRACE: You know what? I need a shrink. I`ve got to go to a psychotherapist on this one. The sense of entitlement, I mean, these three have apparently given various statements regarding the rape and murder of this girl. And now they want to sue for money?

LUDWIG: It`s entitlement. It`s sociopathy. They`re feeling angry and maybe vengeful. And one gets this sense that there`s like this evil fraternity going on, targeting foreigners who are leaving the next day, who knows what they can get away with. So they`re not used to getting confronted.

GRACE: Beth, final thought?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Nancy, that`s a pretty heavy note to end it on, with Deepak`s comment on that. And I think of all the things that they have put our family through and Natalee through and everyone that`s supporting us through, it`s just been horrific what we`ve been through.

GRACE: Beth, Beth, we are rallying behind you. Don`t stop fighting, friend.

Stay with us.


SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Katrina has now been downgraded to a tropical storm, but can still cause extensive damage and flooding as it makes its way toward Tennessee and Ohio now. Emergency crews are trying to help stranded residents. At least three deaths in Mississippi are being blamed on Katrina, and officials expect more. Tens of thousands of homes are now without power, and some areas remain under as much as 12 feet of water.

Well, as Katrina makes its way north, we`ve already gotten word of some tornado touchdowns in Georgia. And more are possible over Alabama and the Florida panhandle.

The president may tap into the nation`s Strategic Oil Reserves. Much of the U.S. crude production takes place on the Gulf Coast and was shut down in anticipation of the storm.

And thousands of travelers have been stranded by Katrina. At least six airports have suspended flights.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: We are tracking Katrina, now reduced to a tropical storm. It pounded Louisiana and Mississippi, came ashore today as one of the most powerful storms ever to hit the U.S., hitting New Orleans, which is below sea level.

The storm moving northeast still packs a powerful punch. Red Cross says this is the single largest mobilization for a national disaster in its history. If you need assistance, call the Red Cross, 1-800-HELP-NOW.

Welcome back, everybody. We are switching gears to an unusual case involving a music icon, Olivia Newton-John. Did her long-time love fake his death, commit suicide, fall overboard, or was he murdered?

Joining us from San Pedro, California, Frank Liversedge. He is the manager of the 22nd Street Landing Marina. In Stamford, Connecticut, private investigator Vito Colucci. And in L.A., "Inside Edition" chief correspondent Jim Moret.

Jim, bring us up-to-date, friend.

JIM MORET, CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Hi, Nancy. For the last week, we`ve been tracking this story and there have been a lot of questions. And we have more questions today.

It looked like this person, Patrick McDermott, disappeared in the last hour of a two-day fishing trip. But now there are some more questions about that, and that is because "Inside Edition" has talked to four passengers who are on this two-day fishing trip who saw Patrick McDermott the first night of the trip but say that, after seeing him in the galley that first night, they never saw him the next day fishing and they never saw him pay for his galley bill.

In the last hour of the trip, everybody settles up their bill. And Patrick McDermott had to pay for two hot dogs and a Coke. And his number - - everyone is assigned a number as they get on the boat -- his number was called out repeatedly. And we`ve been told by these four passengers that McDermott never responded when his number was called out.

So there`s now more questions about when he could have disappeared. The window was very narrow before, just a one-hour window. Now it seems that he may have, in fact, disappeared the night before.

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to the manager of the 22nd Street Landing Marina, Frank Liversedge.

Frank, did he or did he not pay up his bill?

FRANK LIVERSEDGE, MANAGER, 22ND STREET LANDING MARINA: There`s a document that exists that shows that he paid his bill. It wasn`t signed. It was merely checked off by the cook on the boat. But it`s highly unlikely that anyone else would pay his bill.

GRACE: Well, Frank, haven`t all the passengers and the crew on the ship been questioned?

LIVERSEDGE: That`s what I`ve told all of the media all along, that the key to this doesn`t really lie with the crew, it lies with the passengers. You`ve got four passengers now. There`s 18 more to go. And there`s 18 more stories that need to be heard before anybody can make a real, true judgment.


To Vito Colucci with Colucci Investigations. That would be pretty bold. The guy that pushes him overboard then goes and pays for his two hot dogs. Don`t buy it.

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: No. Not at all, Nancy. There`s a lot of things that jump out to me on this. I`d like to see that bill, even though he didn`t sign it. Also, though, several fisherman...

GRACE: Oh, Vito, Vito, the cook didn`t fake the bill. Somebody paid for the hot dogs. Let`s just accept that, all right?

COLUCCI: All right. But how about the several fishermen that are saying they actually saw him get off this boat? I need to talk to them individually, if I`m doing the case, show them the pictures, see what they`re telling me on this.

There are so many things. Why does he have a passport in his car? Why is there no paper money found, when everything else is found in that vehicle? There`s many things that jump out to us on this case, Nancy.

GRACE: What, Ellie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim Moret has something to say about the passport.

GRACE: Yes, what about that, Jim, the passport?

MORET: Nancy, I talked to the attorney representing the captain of the boat. And we have been told all along that, among the personal items that McDermott brought with him and left on the boat, included his driver`s license, checkbook, passport, car keys.

I`ve been told today by the attorney, as recently as the last couple of hours, the attorney representing the captain said the passport was not one of the items retrieved. This is an inconsistency.

And you`re right. I agree with the last statement, that, why would you bring a passport, first of all, on an overnight fishing trip? It simply didn`t make sense. But...

GRACE: Is this guy an Aussie?

MORET: Is he an Aussie? No, he`s American.

GRACE: So why would he need a passport? Good point.

Anne Bremner, what`s your take?

BREMNER: You know, this has been described, Nancy, as Xanadu lost, but what does it mean? You have to eliminate the possibilities. Was he thrown over, no one heard it, yet over 20 people on the boat?

GRACE: Did you actually just say "Xanadu lost"? So you were alive, Anne, discoing when Xanadu came out?

BREMNER: Nancy, you know I was.

GRACE: I think I`d better warn you of your rights right now. OK...

BREMNER: I said someone described it that way. But, Nancy, you know, in a case like this, given that there`s not any evidence that he went over, Mr. Liversedge actually was quoted saying that he`d made it to the parking lot and may have been kind of joking saying abducted by aliens, but we think that he got off the boat.

The fact is, there`s no evidence here that he was thrown off, that he jumped off, that he was suicidal, et cetera, and evidence simply that he would want freedom. And remember, the name of this boat was "The Freedom," which is kind of a coincidence.

GRACE: OK, to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Psychologically, what`s the difference in the makeup of someone who`s going to fake a death? We know he had a lot of financial problems.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: Bad financial problems. I don`t know if it equaled a reason to commit suicide, but, psychologically speaking, suicide versus fake death.

LUDWIG: Well, if somebody fakes their death, then they`re more sociopathic, more criminal-minded, and this man did not have a criminal history, although people who are desperate will do desperate things. His life looked a little bit more depressed. I mean, when you construct your life...

GRACE: The man is out on a fishing cruise.

LUDWIG: Yes, I understand that.

GRACE: That`s not depressed.

LUDWIG: Well, we don`t know why went on this boat.

GRACE: It`s kind of like a little party ride.

LUDWIG: His financial life was in horrible disarray. His relationships were also in disarray. This was a man who at one point earned a six-figure salary and really was very much struggling.

So it`s possible that somebody who gets to that state is not able to take care of themselves on multiple levels and might feel that their family is better off without them. So, even if somebody deliberately walks off the boat, it doesn`t mean that they plan on surviving.

GRACE: Well, Lisa Wayne, there`s a question right there. If this guy was so hard up, where`d he get $150 bucks to go on a fishing cruise?

WAYNE: Right. That`s what I was wondering about. I mean, you know, it`s such speculation at this point. His life appears to have been unraveling.

But you know, we just don`t know. I mean, did he walk away? Is this a guy that walks away a lot? I mean, you know, the family didn`t report him until 11 days later, which leads me to believe is this a guy who really kind of leaves a lot and leaves for a long period of time, before we get alarmed?

GRACE: And, Jim, when you don`t know a horse, look at its track record. If this guy has a history of walking out, say, on debt, on a child-support payment, I mean, it sounds like the perfect ruse.

Think about it.

MORET: It does...

GRACE: This guy has no money, and he coughs up $150 cash to go on an overnight finishing trip?

MORET: Well, but when you talk about his mood, and I know that, when you`re talking about potential suicides, you have to look at the person`s state of mind, I talked to a passenger who told me that, when they saw McDermott in the galley of the first night of the trip, that he made a joke and he seemed to be in very good spirits. That seems inconsistent with someone who would want to jump over the edge of a boat.

GRACE: I`d have to agree with you, Jim Moret. But we`re just two lugheads, all right? We`re basically muggles. I`ve got a shrink here shaking her head, "No," violently.

Go ahead.

LUDWIG: That`s, in fact, not the case. In fact -- and I don`t know if he decided to suicide or not...

GRACE: I don`t buy it. He`s cracking jokes, he`s eating hot dogs, drinking Diet Coke...

LUDWIG: I`ve got to tell you, I don`t know whether he did or not, but when people make the determination to kill themselves, sometimes they`re feeling very joyous, because the burden has been relieved and they`ve made a decision...

GRACE: I`ve never heard of that in my life.

LUDWIG: That is absolutely -- look up the studies and that is very much documented.

GRACE: Studies?

LUDWIG: Yes, in fact...


GRACE: Have you worked with somebody like that?

LUDWIG: I have worked with many suicidal patients. And when they start to say that things are better and they`re not thinking about death, I sometimes get nervous.

GRACE: Yes, right...


LUDWIG: I`m like, what are you not telling me?

GRACE: OK, I`ve got a little clue for you, Vito Colucci. The fish. This guy, avid fisherman, he catches some fish, but he doesn`t have them cleaned.

COLUCCI: Right. And he`s also not seen for like 18 hours of this 22 hours. Why is he going to go on this boat, to collect this $132,000? I work with insurance companies every day. They`re not going to turn that money over on a case like this.

And how about this, Nancy? The neighbors, that every time he`s gone away, he`s told the neighbors. He doesn`t tell them this time. Why? Because after 24, 36 hours, they`re going to report him. This guy bought 11 days out of this.

GRACE: Vito, you`re so right.

And, Jim Moret, before we go to break, I say it`s all about the fish. He always brought his neighbors home fish from his trips. This time, he didn`t have them cleaned before he left. Clearly, not planning to take them home.

And, come on, a guy rock-bottom broke springs $150 bucks to go on an overnight cruise? It would be the perfect way to fake a death.

MORET: Well, and he also leaves his car across the street, parks across the street. He leaves his gear, which is supposedly very nice fishing gear, leaves that on the boat.

So what you`re suggesting is that he simply walked off, which is what we`ve been told by at least one person, that he believes that somebody has seen this man walk off onto the pier and simply into the horizon.

That`s possible. I suppose it`s possible.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Take a look at Jody Collie, just 12 years old, last seen in her own bedroom, Rocky Mount, North Carolina, Thursday night. She was not there the following morning.

Police say she may have been abducted by Phillip Denkler. Take a look. If you have any information on Jody Collie or Denkler, call the Rocky Mount Police, 252-972-1411. This is urgent. Please help us.


GRACE: Taking on Katrina, President Bush declares a state of emergency for the Gulf Coast. Now a tropical storm, Katrina leaves a long path behind her, plowing through New Orleans, blinding rain, 145-mile winds. Part of the Superdome`s roof torn off while thousands taking shelter there. If you need assistance, call the Red Cross, 1-800-HELP-NOW.

Everybody, I want to quickly turn to a case in progress, Montana vs. Sabine Bieber. Sabine Bieber, daycare owner, on trial for homicide. Prosecutors allege she force-fed a baby, 1-year-old Dane Heggem, cold medicine. That`s the alleged murder weapon.

Motive? Not money, not revenge, not a mid-life crisis. To make a kid take a nap.

In Billings, Montana, Sabine Bieber`s defense attorney, Rob Stephens, Jr., and KBLG radio program director Ken Adelblue.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Ken, bring us up-to-date.

KEN ADELBLUE, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, KBLG RADIO: Well, it`s interesting. We`re waiting for a verdict. They went in about 12:30 this afternoon. And I understand that they`re presently having dinner. And we do expect a verdict this evening. So we`re anxious to see what comes out of that.

GRACE: Whoa. This is a hardworking jury. I like that, Ken.

You know, Anne Bremner, that doesn`t happen very often that juries want to keep working into the night.

BREMNER: No. The last time it happened to me was almost 20 years ago, Nancy. So it`s a good sign.

GRACE: So Robert Stephens, you`re Sabine Bieber`s defense attorney, how do you explain that Baby Dane Heggem had diphenhydramine in his system -- that is an ingredient of a generic Benadryl -- and that several of the other children had one of the same ingredients in their baby diapers?



STEPHENS: It`s really relatively simple. The child got the diphenhydramine at home. The mother administered Benadryl to the child for a condition. The doctor...

GRACE: But that was a month before, wasn`t it? Wasn`t that a month before?

STEPHENS: And we know that DPH, 50 percent of it, is absorbed into the liver, and the soft tissues of the body, and it`s released over time. That would account for a trace.

GRACE: Over time? Wait, wait, wait, Robert, now, listen. I know you`re a pretty wily defense attorney. You`ve won a lot of cases.

But the baby weighs, what, maybe 10, 12 pounds? And if the mom gave it cold medicine a month before, you`re trying to tell me that long-acting means it takes a month to release in your system?

STEPHENS: No, I`m not telling you that. And the baby weighed about 12 1/2 kilos, which is twice the poundage that you`ve suggested. What I`m suggesting is that the state did not exclude other sources of DPH in that child`s system and...

GRACE: But what about the other babies, Robert? What about the other babies` diapers, yes, where the ingredients showed up in their urine?

STEPHENS: The Roma child? The Roma child had a diaper rash, and DPH is a common additive to ointments and gels that are used to treat diaper rash.

GRACE: But, Robert, an ointment or a gel is topical. Why would be in their urine, their actual urine? It would have to be ingested to be in their urine, right?

STEPHENS: You`re switching diapers on me. There was a 4-year-old who was given a urine sample. But again, DPH is released over time in the urine. And this child also received medications from the mother.

It could have been a topical ointment for eczema. The child was being treated. And the point is that, first of all, nobody excluded alternative sources for these substances.


STEPHENS: Second of all, the amount of diphenhydramine that was found in that child could not have killed it.

GRACE: Let me quickly go to Ken Adelblue...

STEPHENS: And those are the essential issues.

GRACE: ... with KBLG Radio. Ken, what was the state`s strongest evidence? We`ve heard from the defense tonight.

ADELBLUE: Well, I think the state`s strongest evidence was something that you alluded to a little bit earlier, if there were indeed traces of the Benadryl generic drug in there, how indeed did it stay in there?

And when you were talking actually a month, it was actually about a month and 15 days. Because, according to the parents, the last time they administered Benadryl was actually for an allergic reaction to peanut butter, and that would have been around December 15th.

So, actually, you`ve got a month and about 15 days. I think that was very strong evidence, at least from their standpoint.

GRACE: I think you`re right.

Very quickly in our remaining moments, Lisa Wayne, I`ve listened to Robert Stephens, Jr., the defense attorney. And I`m not necessarily buying his argument.

But don`t you believe, Lisa Wayne, that there`s a lot in the way a message is presented to a jury? If a jury, for instance, likes an attorney, they`re more predisposed to listen to the argument?

WAYNE: I totally agree with you, Nancy. If they like you, then they probably think you`re more credible. And it seems like, in this case here, I mean, you had the dueling toxicologists. You had the defense presenting toxicologists. You had the state.

But you had the defendant testifying. And frankly, her credibility is going to be the focus for this jury. They`re going to say, "Can we believe her? And is it really consistent with the physical evidence or the forensic evidence about whether or not she was administering this Benadryl?" Period, period.

GRACE: And, Anne Bremner, we know the burden is on the state, but the reality is, once a defendant takes the stand, there is a non-verbal shifting of burden from, did the state prove the case, to, is the defendant telling the truth?

BREMNER: Nancy, you`re exactly right. And in this case, with three experts for the defense, countering what the prosecution put forward, you might want to leave it like that, because the prosecution first said in the autopsy, the M.E. said this was heart failure and not drug-induced. So that could be a wild card here...


GRACE: Yes, well, remember, the baby`s heart was autopsied and sent to one of the most preeminent military hospitals in this country. And it was determined there was not a heart ailment.

We`ll all be right back. But very quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin."

FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Reynaldo Pimienta, wanted in connection with the 2000 shooting of an ex-girlfriend, Olga Restripo (ph), in South Carolina.

Restripo (ph), now 32, paralyzed because of the shooting. Pimienta, 41, 5`11", 200 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. Any info on Reynaldo Pimienta, call the FBI, 803-551-4200.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the daycare center homicide trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us as we remember Staff Sergeant Jeremy Doyle, 24, an American hero.


GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Pam Kinney. Her family found me last week and gave me pictures of her, desperate to find their girl. She`s just 19 years old.

She disappeared from Apalachicola, Florida, August 14th, last seen wearing a white top, blue jean skirt. If you have any info on Pam Kinney, please call the Franklin County sheriff, 850-670-8500. Please help us find Pam.

Welcome back, everybody. Very quickly to Dr. Robi Ludwig.

Listen, I can`t get this mental picture of a daycare worker, Sabine Bieber, force-feeding an infant cold medicine. That`s the picture painted in opening statements. Now, what about the 64 bottles of generic Benadryl that she bought and used for her family in 23 months?

LUDWIG: It means it was an essential. That`s how you buy diapers and baby wipes.

GRACE: They were slugging back some Benadryl.

LUDWIG: I mean, this woman probably has been giving Benadryl for a very long time, and she gave it to the wrong child at the wrong time. And very often, there are caregivers who are burnt out, and frustrated, and find their own little unique ways of managing their aggression and helping children to leave them alone. And this sounds like it was her way.

GRACE: Defense attorney Rob Stephens, your girl is throwing back quite a bit of Benadryl there, 64 bottles. Whew.

STEPHENS: Well, she had a lot of help. And there`s a lot of reason for it. And I think that, if you track the purchases, it`s very cyclical. It coincides with the cold and flu season, football season for her son, the allergy season. The distorted...

GRACE: Sixty-four bottles?

STEPHENS: Actually, it`s 66, if you include the three bottles they bought when they were on vacation in California.

GRACE: OK. Hey, Rob, that`s not helping anything. Shh.

STEPHENS: Ms. Grace, the whole issue of quantity and numbers was a distortion from the very get-go. And we had to address it. But that wasn`t what the case was about. I mean, the case was about...

GRACE: Mr. Stephens, I`d love to talk to you more, but I`ve got to go to break. Everybody, you can catch Mr. Stephens live on Court TV tomorrow.

I want to thank all my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, to you, for being with us, inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.