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Nancy Grace

Possible Motive for Vitale Murder Revealed; Intense George Manhunt Turns Desperate

Aired October 31, 2005 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Is there a brand-new motive for murder in the Pam Vitale murder case, the wife of California defense attorney Daniel Horowitz? And why did murder defendant 17-year-old Scott Dyleski`s mother turncoat on her own son almost immediately after her arrest for accomplice to murder after the fact?
And tonight: The intense manhunt for a Georgia beauty queen-turned high school history teacher takes a desperate turn.

And last but not least, we haven`t heard the end of pop icon Michael Jackson. More mystery at Neverland. Under a harsh new child visitation rule, the mother of two of Michael Jackson`s children reportedly can`t even tell them she`s their mom.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: the desperate search for a 30-year-old Georgia high school history teacher and former beauty queen, Tara Grinstead, now missing more than a week.

And Michael Jackson`s ex-wife Debbie Rowe`s glowing testimony at his child molestation trial may have helped keep Jackson out of prison, but Jackson`s recent child visitation deal with Debbie Rowe isn`t nearly as sympathetic. Rowe is now reportedly allowed only allowed occasional visits with her 8 and 7-year-old children and is not even allowed to mention she`s their mother.

But first tonight: Scott Dyleski, behind bars as prime suspect in the murder of prominent defense attorney Daniel Horowitz`s wife, Pamela Vitale. He turned 17, his mom out of jail on a deal to testify against him. Tonight: Investigators believe there could be an incredibly senseless new motive for murder.


DANIEL HOROWITZ, HUSBAND OF MURDER VICTIM PAMELA VITALE: I just cry and cry when I can feel her pain or feel her beauty. And then I do business. It`s like a vacation. And then I`m angry, but I know anger`s not going to bring her back, so it doesn`t (INAUDIBLE) And I remember what you said about the death penalty, and I`m not going to back off of that, no matter what.


GRACE: Well, Daniel Horowitz at that time said he would not back off the death penalty. Little did he know at the time, the alleged perpetrator would be young enough to escape the death penalty even being sought. And then tonight, an incredibly senseless new motive for murder as a possibility.

Let`s go straight out to chief correspondent of "Inside Edition" Jim Moret. Jim, explain.

JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Nancy, we`ve been talking since his arrest that Scott Dyleski may have actually had a plan to pick up some hydroponic growing equipment in this bizarre scheme to steal credit cards and then raise money to buy or to raise pot plants. What we`re hearing from a person who lived with Scott Dyleski is that the murder may have actually been inspired by a case of mistaken identity because in early October, mid-October, Scott Dyleski`s dog was struck by a neighbor. That dog was eventually euthanized. And one person is speculating that Scott Dyleski went up to Daniel Horowitz`s property on October 15 and slayed Pam Vitale believing that she was the person who actually struck his dog.

GRACE: But you`re saying, Jim Moret, mistaken identity, in the sense that he thought Pam Vitale killed the dog?

MORET: Well, it depends on which neighbor you talk to. The woman that lived in his home said she believed that Scott Dyleski did not know the identity of the person that struck the dog. Another person who lives on the very same street said that`s not necessarily true because he had confrontations with the woman who struck the dog over her credit card receipts being stolen, but he may have believed that that woman who struck his dog lived where the Horowitz...

GRACE: Oh...

MORET: ... home was located...

GRACE: ... good...

MORET: ... so it`s either -- yes, I know...

GRACE: ... Lord!

MORET: Either way, it`s senseless, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to defense attorney Jonna Spilbor. Jonna, I once had a murder case I was prosecuting, and the big defense was transferred intent. In other words, mistaken identity. The defendants said they meant to kill a fellow drug dealer. Instead, they killed a 14- year-old boy that played in the high school band. You know, that is not mistaken identity. They tried as transferred intent, but the bottom line is it didn`t matter. There was no reason to kill a fellow drug dealer, much less 14-year-old boy. Same thing here, transferred intent on a crime victim does not exist as a legal theory!

JONNA SPILBOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it doesn`t, and it won`t work, but it doesn`t matter. And the reason it doesn`t matter, Nancy, is because the dog -- the dead dog theory as motive is weaker than weak. For starters, the dog outlived Pam Vitale. So if this kid went nuts because his dog died, well, his dog died two days later, so he couldn`t have gone that nuts. I think this is another red herring, and it`s going to help whoever is defending this kid because now they`ve got two potential theories that they`re floating out there for motive, and neither one of them are going to hold water.

GRACE: So you think two wrongs make a right?


GRACE: You think this is going to help the defense?

SPILBOR: It is going to help the defense.

GRACE: You`ve got, Oh, I thought you stole my pot...


GRACE: ... my marijuana hydroponic lighting equipment, as a motive, and now, I think you killed my dog?

SPILBOR: That`s what I would flow (ph) to the jury. I`d say, Look, first, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, they thought this was some grand credit card scheme. Then they thought that the hydroponic equipment got delivered, and it didn`t. Then they said, Oh, my goodness, the defendant killed the -- the victim killed the dog. What are they going to think of next? In other words, the prosecution does not have a solid motive.

GRACE: But the reality is, Anne Bremner, the prosecution doesn`t have to prove motive. So believe me, it`s not going to be the prosecution stepping up with these zany theories, all right? It`s not. I think that someone out there on the defense side is grasping for theories to explain why this young man may have committed murder on a neighbor.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, sure. But the thing is, you know, why not take something -- those motives will never work, I mean, in terms of -- you know, why would you -- I mean, You killed my dog, you know, I`ll kill you.

Just today in "The Seattle Times," we had an article on Goth, and there was a quote from Voltaire, Nancy, and it was, Those that make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. And I think you`ve got to go out there, as the defense in this case. Only 5 percent of juveniles account -- only 5 percent account for the ultimate total of murders in the United States. And of those 6 percent, the juveniles, they don`t kill adults. I mean, this is an anomaly, and I think you`ve really got to go to something that`s very wrong with this young man.

GRACE: Well, you may claim it`s an anomaly, but every juvenile I ever prosecuted for murder had killed an adult.

Very quickly, I want to go to a special guest joining us by phone. It is Dr. Mike Radcliffe, and he is the Dyleski family veterinarian. Tell me about this dog, Doctor, that belonged to Scott Dyleski`s family.

MIKE RADCLIFFE, DYLESKI FAMILY VETERINARIAN, PUT THEIR DOG TO SLEEP: Jazz (ph) was a well-owned, well-cared-for dog. He was 14 years old and had had a history of orthopedic problems. And Mrs. Fielding was a very responsible pet owner. She had limited resources, but she always -- when Jazz had health problems, she always gave him the best care she could.

GRACE: His name was Jazz. He was 14. I`m surprised he didn`t die clutching his AARP card.


GRACE: Let`s see, how old is that for a human?

RADCLIFFE: That`s -- for an Australian shepherd, that`s about the limit.

GRACE: Fourteen years old. So in the end, he was struck by a vehicle, correct?

RADCLIFFE: That`s right.

GRACE: But not by Pamela Vitale.

RADCLIFFE: I`m not sure who struck her. What I hear, it`s not Mrs. Vitale. That`s correct.

GRACE: Well, Doctor -- with me, everybody, is the Dyleski family veterinarian. Doctor, you saw Dyleski, Scott Dyleski, after Pamela`s murder, correct?

RADCLIFFE: That`s correct.

GRACE: He came to the veterinary office, right?


GRACE: what was his demeanor?

RADCLIFFE: His demeanor was very sympathetic to his mother. He was upset. I can`t say -- after all, he grew up with the dog. I can`t say he was more upset than I would expect a teenager to be as his dog was being euthanized.

GRACE: So was he or was he not upset when the dog was euthanized?


GRACE: In what sense, crying, screaming, throwing himself on the floor, what?

RADCLIFFE: No, he wasn`t -- he wasn`t crying, but he was holding his mother. He had some tears, and he was mainly consoling her. And it was a trying experience for them, but there was no hint that there was anything else was going on that I could tell.

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig is with us, psychologist. It`s interesting to me that he shed a tear when the 14-year-old dog was euthanized. And after he allegedly bludgeoned Pam Vitale to death, he went out and had sex with his girlfriend. Help me out, Doctor.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, clearly, this man was on a vengeful mission. And everybody who`s heard this story has said there was something so passionate and rageful about this murder, something was going on. Did he feel that he was protecting his mother and somehow taking care of her, that this woman had nothing in her life, the dog was somehow an anchor for both of them, and whoever killed this dog was deserving to get murdered, too? Listen, we don`t know, but clearly, this person couldn`t hold onto his rage, needed to discharge it in this way, and it turned out to be really lethal and brutal.

GRACE: Take a listen to what a friend of the Dyleski family had to say.


ELENA DZIADEVITCH, KNOWS SCOTT DYLESKI: I was shocked. Esther is a wonderful woman, and I didn`t think that she would be capable of covering murder evidence.

GRACE: And what about it, Mitch House? You also know Esther Fielding, Dyleski`s mother. What was your first reaction when you learned she was under arrest?

MITCH HOUSE, KNOWS SCOTT DYLESKI: Actually, it kind of angered me. I thought that this woman had suffered enough. I thought about what the situation might be. I wasn`t sure exactly what she did. By knowing Esther, I knew that she would probably do anything to help her son.

GRACE: Well, Mitch, would you accept the theory that she helped get rid of bloody clothes?

HOUSE: I don`t know if she would have done that. But if she had, I can accept that she would have because of the way she was with her son.

GRACE: Do you think she can bring herself to testify against her son?

HOUSE: I think she`s going to have to. I think -- I think this has just been so tragic and traumatic for her that if she had done something to help him, it would have been just out of being in a state of shock. But I think now she realizes -- you know, maybe she`s coming a little back to earth and realizing she`s going to have to.


GRACE: Tonight, investigators mulling over an incredibly sensitive new -- incredibly insensitive new motive for murder in this case -- makes absolutely no sense whatsoever -- over the death of the family dog. Could that be true?

And on another note, we have now learned that Dyleski`s mother agreed to turncoat and testify against her own son almost immediately after her arrest.

Out to Jim Moret. Also, Dyleski turned 17 yesterday behind bars. Jim Moret, does that mean any different treatment for him? Is he being housed in the same location?

MORET: Well, he`s still a minor. No, I don`t think he is being housed in a separate location, still technically a juvenile, even though he`s being treated as an adult, being tried as an adult.

But you know, you talk about this new theory. I actually think it may hurt him in the sense, if this is the person that committed this crime, then you could argue from a prosecution standpoint that there was clearly premeditation, which was more difficult to argue with this hydroponic growing scheme. I think this potentially hurts the defense.

GRACE: What do you mean?

MORET: Well, I think that if there was a vengeful killing, if revenge was the motive, and he was going -- whether it`s transferred victim or, you know, misinterpreted who it was, there was clearly the intent to do harm to the person he believed killed his dog. So I think that you have a premeditation situation there, which you don`t necessarily have if he simply stumbled upon Pam while he was trying to retrieve some property that he mistakenly believed was being sent to their home.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner. What do you make of the mother so quickly turning coat and agreeing to testify against her own son almost immediately after her arrest? How did the police persuade her to do this? And will she carry through at trial and actually testify?

BREMNER: Well, and that`s pretty tough coercion there, Nancy. You know, when you`re trying to get someone to turn evidence and come in and help you turn state`s evidence, you put him in jail at $500,000 bail. And then right after she`s arraigned, Oh, now we`ve got a deal, and there she goes. Sure, that`s a way to get her to talk. Will she do it ultimately? We don`t know. But she -- her son is the apple of her eye, according to a lot of people, and she tried to protect him in spite of criminal ramifications, allegedly, in the beginning. So time will tell.

GRACE: Well, I mean, let`s look at the nuts and bolts, Jonna Spilbor, on accomplice to murder after the fact -- you know, basically getting rid of some of the evidence. She might do anywhere 2 to 12 years behind bars, max. Max.


GRACE: If she agrees to a deal, they cut her free. They drop the charge, dead docket it, cannot revive it. Then it comes trial time, if she doesn`t testify, the most she`s going to get on contempt of court is maybe 18 months behind bars maximum.

SPILBOR: Right, which doesn`t make sense for the prosecutor to do what they did. If she really has some valuable information -- or better yet, Nancy, if they could have proven that she had valuable information, they would not have dropped those charges without giving her a grant of immunity. Now they just dropped it, like, Hey, you know what? All we...


GRACE: ... haven`t dropped the charges yet.

SPILBOR: Yes, they did. And now all they want her to do is say, Could you please testify truthfully at trial? Which is what she`s required to do anyway. And they drop...

GRACE: Hold on!

SPILBOR: ... the charges without holding them over her head. That was dumb, and that means the prosecution really doesn`t have anything to hang their hat on.

GRACE: So far, Jim Moret, they have not gone to court and null-prosed (ph) the charges. That`s a legal term. Right now, if they wanted to, they could revive those charges on the mother. This has never gone through the district attorney`s office. This was all done at the police level. The DA can pick that charge up on her and revive it, if they want to.

MORET: Well, and there`s also one other element, and you said this yourself the other day. You said you hope that they`re videotaping whatever statement she`s making. Don`t forget, they`re not just letting her go home, they`re questioning her. They`re, hopefully, documenting these questions and answers. And if she becomes a hostile witness and makes statements that are incongruous with what she said earlier, they`re going to bring that up.

And you know what? A jury may not believe her if she later says -- and recants her testimony and says, You know, my son`s a good boy, he didn`t do this, if she earlier said, He did this, and I helped him get rid of evidence, in order to get herself out of jail.

GRACE: OK, Jim Moret, here`s a way to work the deal. Get her on record, preferably on video, after her Miranda rights are given, on video, hold the charge open or have it where it can be revived. Only drop it, null-pros it, after her testimony. That`s the way to work co-defendant testimony. You never drop the charge until the trial on the main perpetrator is done.

Everybody, stay put. Very quickly, today President Bush nominates Judge Samuel Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court just four days after Bush`s last nominee, Harriet Miers, backed out of her U.S. Supreme Court bid after criticism from both Democrats and Republicans. Alito, the president`s third pick to replace Sandra Day O`Connor, is a former U.S. attorney and former judge. Democrats oppose the nomination, demanding a second woman on the high court.


GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I`m confident that the United States Senate will be impressed by Judge Alito`s distinguished record, his measured judicial temperament and his tremendous personal integrity. I urge the Senate to act promptly on this important nomination so that an up or down vote is held before the end of this year.




TARA GRINSTEAD, BEAUTY PAGEANT CONTESTANT: (INAUDIBLE) state university. My platform (INAUDIBLE) recycling, preserve the future and recycle the past. I am Tara Grinstead.


GRACE: Thirty-year-old Tara Grinstead now history teacher following a beauty pageant winner missing. Please help us bring home Tara Grinstead.

Let`s go straight out to a reporter with "The Tifton Gazette." Joining us is Dusty Vassey. Dusty, bring us up to date.

DUSTY VASSEY, "TIFTON GAZETTE": Tara Grinstead went missing last Saturday night -- well, that was last time anyone saw her -- at 11:00 PM. She went to a beauty pageant, where she was helping people do their makeup. And she was reported missing after Monday morning when she didn`t show up to work where she`s a local high school teach.

GRACE: Dusty, where did she work, exactly?

VASSEY: She was a history teacher in Irwin County (ph) High School in Osceola (ph), Georgia.

GRACE: And how long had she been there?

VASSEY: I`m not sure how long she had been there.

GRACE: You know, I want to go straight out to Tara`s sister, joining us also from Osceola, Georgia. Anita Gattis is with us. Anita, how long had your sister been at that school?


GRACE: What can you tell me about the night she went missing, Anita?

GATTIS: She had helped some girls in the afternoon work on their makeup, their hair for a beauty pageant. She went to the beauty pageant. She went to a local superintendent`s house for dinner, watched a football game. We assume she went back home. And after that, we do not know.

GRACE: What, if anything, was unusual about her home, Anita?

GATTIS: Well, her car was left unlocked. Tara never leaves her car unlocked when she is at home. Her cell phone was in the charger. Her door was locked, but her keys and her purse were missing.

GRACE: Keys and purse missing. I understood that there was a radio clock by her bed on the floor.

GATTIS: That`s correct. The GBI found it under the bed when they were looking for evidence. And there was also a broken lamp on her bedside table.

GRACE: Now, Anita, the clock -- would she have left it that way? I mean, if I came home tonight and I saw my clock by the bed, laying on the floor, I would turn around and walk out of that apartment because that would be wrong. Would she have left it that way?

GATTIS: I don`t think so because the clock is about six hours off in time.

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

GATTIS: The clock, the time is about six hours off, which is another confusing fact.

GRACE: Time six hours off. OK, back to Dusty Vassey with "The Tifton Gazette." You got a broken lamp. You`ve got the radio clock lying on the floor under the bed. What about the clothes she wore that evening to the party, the get-together?

VASSEY: I`m not really sure about her clothes.

GRACE: What about it, Anita?

GATTIS: All of her clothes were back at home, so she did go back home and change clothes.

GRACE: Now, there was something about a jack o`lantern on the front porch?

GATTIS: Right. Tara`s house was decorated really cute for Halloween. The jack o`lantern was still plugged in, and it was lit up.

GRACE: OK. Question. Back to Anita Gattis, Tara Grinstead`s sister. Everybody, you`re taking a look at Tara Grinstead, age 30, 5-3, 125 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, a 9th grade social studies teacher in Osceola, Georgia. If you have any information, 229-468-7494.

As we go to break, a "Case Alert." Sad news to report tonight. Remains discovered in Portland Harbor, Maine, this morning are those of 24- year-old Lynn Moran (ph). We profiled her story last week. Lynn last seen the night of October 10. Police believe she accidentally fell into the water and drowned.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love Tara, yes we do! We love Tara, how about you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love Tara, yes we do! We love Tara, how about you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love Tara, yes we do! We love Tara, how about you?


GRACE: A Georgia family trying anything they can think of to bring home 30-year-old Tara Grinstead. That was a pep rally held locally last week, trying to raise money and awareness of this missing 30-year-old beauty. Rosie, if you could show the picture of Tara Grinstead, age 30, 5- 3, 125 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. Tip line, 229-468-7494. Reward up to $25,000.

To Anita Gattis, the sister of Tara. What is your family doing trying to find your sister?

GATTIS: We had embraced the help of this community, who has just been absolutely phenomenal. I had no idea how much they loved my sister until I arrived in Osceola on Monday. We have hired a private individual, who we hope will bring us some additional information that maybe the GBI and the local law enforcement have not been able to get.

GRACE: You mean a private eye?


GRACE: Excellent move. The reward is up to $25,00, everyone. Very quickly, Anita, it`s my understanding someone was arrested for knocking on her door recently, like some love-sick student?

GATTIS: Yes, she had a former student she had a restraining order against, and he did attempt to break into her house and he was arrested.

GRACE: Is he being questioned?

GATTIS: I think he has been.


SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello. I`m Sophia Choi, and here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Conservatives are praising President Bush`s latest nominee for the U.S. Supreme Court. The president named Judge Samuel Alito today to replace the retiring Sandra Day O`Connor. Judge Alito`s judicial experience includes 15 years as a federal judge.

Democrats are promising a fight when it comes to his confirmation hearings.

Former White House official Lewis "Scooter" Libby is expected to be arraigned in federal court on Thursday. Libby resigned shortly after being indicted in the CIA leak investigation. Vice President Dick Cheney has chosen his general counsel, David Addington, to replace Libby as chief of staff.

And the Cincinnati Bengals say they`re reviewing security measures after a fan jumped out of the stands on Sunday and stole the ball from Packers` quarterback Brett Favre. Gregory Gall pleaded not guilty today to charges of resisting arrest, trespassing, and disorderly conduct while intoxicated.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: Thirty-year-old Tara Grinstead, a beauty queen, missing out of a relatively low-crime area, Ocilla, Georgia. Reward, $25,000, 229-468- 7494.

And I want to go straight back to Tara`s sister, Anita Gattis. Anita, let`s go back through that time line. Did she work that day? Did she disappear on a weekend?

GATTIS: Well, she was last seen on a Saturday night. We`re assuming maybe she disappeared sometime Saturday night. Her car never left her house after she arrived home from the superintendent`s house.

GRACE: OK. Let`s work on that time line. What time did she leave the superintendent`s party? It was a football game?

GATTIS: They had a barbeque. They watched a college game. And she left approximately 11:00, 11:05 p.m.

GRACE: Did she leave by herself?

GATTIS: Yes, she did.

GRACE: And she drove directly home, to your knowledge?

GATTIS: That we`re not sure of. We assume that she did, but somebody else may have seen her. That`s why it`s so important that someone else let us know if they saw her after 11:00.

GRACE: And how far was the superintendent`s house from her house?

GATTIS: Just a few miles.

GRACE: Are you talking five, 10, 20?

GATTIS: Maybe five.

GRACE: And did she live in a home or an apartment?

GATTIS: She lived in a home.

GRACE: Anita, was the home locked from the inside when the police got there?

GATTIS: Yes, it was.

GRACE: So all the doors were locked?

GATTIS: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And do those doors lock automatically when you shut the door?

GATTIS: No, they did not.

GRACE: Did she have a car garage where you park your car and you close the garage door with like a Genie?

GATTIS: No, her garage was opened on two sides.

GRACE: Open on two sides, car parked in the garage?

GATTIS: Right.

GRACE: Any forced entry?

GATTIS: There`s no evidence of that.

GRACE: And the only thing amiss was the clock radio at her bedside was under the bed. Was it still plugged in?

GATTIS: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Still plugged in, but six hours later?

GATTIS: Correct.

GRACE: And the lamp by the bedside cracked but still on the bedside table?

GATTIS: That`s correct, too.

GRACE: Also, Anita, her clothing that she wore to the party that evening, it was found in the home?

GATTIS: It was. It looks like that she changed into maybe the clothes she was going to sleep in that night.

GRACE: Why do you say that?

GATTIS: Well, she had made the comment that she was tired and was going to go home and watch the video from the pageant. She normally put on sweat pants and a t-shirt to sleep in.

GRACE: Now, she told you this?

GATTIS: No, this is what she told the people at the party she was at.

GRACE: Oh, OK. Now, was she drinking at the party?

GATTIS: Tara does not drink. She never has drank.

GRACE: So her clothing, Anita, was it laid out, like, you know, when I take my clothes off in the evening, I normally put them away or throw them in the dirty clothes, one or the other. Were they put away neatly, or were they found lying on the floor? Where were they?

GATTIS: The shoes were found lying on the floor, which a friend of mine told me was very unusual, because they were fairly expensive pair of shoes. She usually boxed them up and put them in the closet. The rest of her clothes were lying piled on a chest.

GRACE: Piled on a chest. Would that be normal for her?

GATTIS: It appears so. There were more clothes on that chest, also.

GRACE: Yes. Now, Anita, you stated she normally sleeps in sweat clothes, shirt, you know, socks maybe. Did you go through her home looking? I remember the Laci Peterson case. Her family went through looking for things, because they were familiar with her habits. Did you do this?

GATTIS: I have somewhat. But she has so much clothes it`s really hard to tell exactly what`s missing.

GRACE: What`s interesting to me is her car`s still there. Only missing is her purse and her keys. Wasn`t her cell phone put back on the charger?

GATTIS: Yes, ma`am. It was by her bed, where the lamp and the clock were.

GRACE: Still sitting in the charger?

GATTIS: Correct.

GRACE: You know, I just want to ask you one more thing about these keys and this pocketbook. Did she normally put her keys, like, on the table separate from her pocketbook, or would she put the keys back in her pocketbook?

GATTIS: Back in her pocketbook.

GRACE: So the fact that she had keys and pocketbook missing could mean she simply grabbed the purse and left.

GATTIS: I guess that`s so.

GRACE: And, Anita, one more thing about the home. The lights in the home, were the lights on or off? And is she an energy freak like me? Would she cut off all the lights but a night light or what?

GRACE: She left a porch light on. And the lamp by her bedside table she always turned on so that her neighbors would know that she was home. And that had not seen that lamp on since Friday night.

GRACE: So it was on Friday night?

GATTIS: It was on Friday night. It never got turned on Saturday night.

GRACE: You know, Anita, that is a very interesting fact. Listen, when she would come in, would that bed light already be on or would she go in there and cut it on?

GATTIS: She would go in there and cut it on. That was her normal habit.

GRACE: Doesn`t it sound to you, based on that fact, that someone was either in the home or followed her into the home. And when she went to the bedroom to flick the light on, the neighbors never saw that light come on?

GATTIS: That`s what they`ve told me. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: OK. I want to quickly go to Robi Ludwig. But, Anita, she`s never just disappeared, like, take a walkabout, nothing like that?

GATTIS: Tara is not that kind of person, absolutely not.

GRACE: Why did she become a teacher?

GATTIS: Because she loves children. She loves to help people. She wants anyone to be the best that they can be. And that`s what teachers do.

GRACE: Never drank?

GATTIS: Never, never drank.

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, give me your take, psychologically speaking.

GATTIS: Well, it sounds like Tara`s sister has a really good sense of her character, so this is not somebody who would just walk off and not contact anyone. I would want to know a little bit more about her romantic history, the people who were involved with her, to find out more about them.

GRACE: Yes, what about that, Anita? Robi`s right. Anita?


GRACE: Was she dating anybody?

GATTIS: Not at this time, no, ma`am.

GRACE: She had had a breakup, though, right, of a six-year relationship? But that was nine months ago.

GATTIS: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Now, has that guy gone on and found somebody else, I hope?

GATTIS: I can`t answer that. I have not been in contact with him.

GRACE: Do you know if he was questioned?

GATTIS: I believe so.

GRACE: Dusty Vassey, do you know if he was questioned?

VASSEY: I`ve not been told.

GRACE: So, Dr. Robi, why would you immediately think of an ex-love?

LUDWIG: She`s a beautiful girl. She`s involved with pageants. Very often, ex-loves sometimes can get very controlling and angry when a girlfriend will not reunite with them. That`s just one possibility.

The other is that some erotomaniac stalker who somehow became obsessed with her...


GRACE: Well, she was just at this pageant that night.

LUDWIG: Exactly. And we know that people look at pageants, that are attracted to pageants, may not be all there. They might have this fantasy...

GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

GATTIS: That observe these pageants, not who are involved in them. But they become romantically obsessed. And they attract somebody who might have these fantasies and really believe that they`re involved with these people that they`re not involved with.

GRACE: To Jonna Spilbor, what should investigators be doing right now? You know, this whole theory, she had been helping others prepare for a pageant that very day, Jonna.

SPILBOR: I would first look at anybody who she has regular contact with. She`s a teacher. And in that profession, she`s in contact with the same group of people all the time. Somebody could have developed a crush on her. Same with the pageant people.

And to tell you what, now I want to check the neighbor, because if my neighbor knows when I turn my light on and off, I`m concerned. So I would check, really...

GRACE: Jonna, that`s because you`re a New Yorker.


In Georgia, different story.

SPILBOR: That`s normal? Ah, OK. I stand corrected.

GRACE: And here, my neighbors, they all know whether I`m there or not. They know. If they see the newspaper at the foot of the door, they know I haven`t come out yet. Believe me.

SPILBOR: But your bedroom light, Nancy, that`s a little -- your bedroom light? That`s personal.

GRACE: Well, everybody is not living in high-rises the way we have to here in New York, Jonna. You know, open up your heart a little bit, Spilbor, just a little bit.

SPILBOR: I`ll try. I`ll try.

GRACE: So, Anne Bremner, do you think her visibility, high visibility as a beauty queen, possibly made her vulnerable to a predator, especially given this time line Anita Gattis had given us. In it, she had just been helping others at a pageant that day.

BREMNER: No doubt about it, Nancy. Whether it`s somebody that knows her well, someone who was stalking her, or somebody that just was watching from afar, the visibility definitely contributed to, I think, her being missing at this point.

And hopefully she`s OK. But she`s been missing now for some time. And it`s cause for a lot of concern. She`s beautiful, and a lot of people are very interested, I think, in following her or being involved with her.

GRACE: Anita Gattis, how often did you speak to her on the phone?

GATTIS: Sometimes we may go a couple of weeks and not speak, but we e-mailed quite frequently.

GRACE: Would you say every day or every other day?

GATTIS: Every other day on the e-mail.

GRACE: Anita Gattis is Tara Grinstead`s sister. Please stay in touch with us. Help us Tara Grinstead home. Tip-line, 229-468-7494. Did being a local pageant beauty make her vulnerable to a stalker?

Everybody, we at NANCY GRACE want very much, in our own way, to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 16-year-old Jenny Waltz. She was stabbed to death, November `94, Fresno, California, in her own home. Ten years later, the murder is still unsolved.

If you have info on Jenny Waltz, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.


GRACE: Well, it never seems to end with the Michael Jackson story. As you know, he was acquitted on counts of child molestation by a California jury. Let`s go straight to chief correspondent with "Inside Edition," Jim Moret.

What`s the latest? I`m almost afraid to ask.

MORET: Well, it`s a great choice of songs, by the way, on Halloween to play "Thriller". But there are some significant developments in Michael Jackson`s case.

Debbie Rowe, his ex-wife, who testified originally as a star prosecution witness, who ended up really being a defense witness, who called Michael Jackson a generous person, a good father, surrounded by vultures, was hoping to have her custody of her two children reinstated, but she was dealt a very serious blow, because that`s not what happened.

Basically, Debbie Rowe is allowed to see the children at Michael Jackson`s whim and only under the guidance of Michael Jackson`s nanny, Grace. And basically, Debbie Rowe is not even allowed to tell her two children, who are now -- what are they -- eight and seven, that`s Prince Michael and Paris -- she`s not even allowed to tell them that she`s their mom.

So this is not really what Debbie Rowe was clearly counting on when she gave this glowing testimony on behalf of Michael Jackson at his trial.

GRACE: Glowing is a good way to put it. Take a listen to this.


DEBBIE ROWE, JACKSON`S EX-WIFE: My kids don`t call me Mom, because I don`t want them to. They`re not -- they`re Michael`s children. It`s not that they`re not my children, but I had them because I wanted him to be a father.

I believe that there are people who should be parents. And he`s one of them.

We are a family unit. Michael and I will always be connected with the kids. I will always be there for him. I will always be there for the children. And people make remarks, "Oh, I can`t believe she left her children."

Left them? I left my children? I did not leave my children. My children are with their father where they`re supposed to be.


GRACE: That was from FOX channel that dealt with the trial, the child molestation trial.

Back to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." You know, everyone assumed -- and there was discussion at the time -- that she would be given more lenient visitation with those children following their testimony at trial. Remember there was a time at trial, she was trying to get custody back of her children, sole custody.

MORET: Right.

GRACE: What happened?

MORET: Well, and don`t forget, she had not seen those kids in nearly five years. And there was a great deal of speculation. You`re right. We all talked about it at the time.

We thought there must have been a secret deal. Something must have happened that turned her testimony, because prosecutors -- don`t forget, they brought her on to show that she was coerced into making these great statements about Michael Jackson, that she was coerced, and then that would somehow bolster the argument that Michael Jackson coerced the defendant or the alleged victim in that child molestation case to make similarly glowing statements against Michael Jackson.

What happened was, it didn`t work out that way at all. Debbie Rowe, you might say she was double-crossed. You might say she got a bad deal. Who knows? The fact of the matter is, she didn`t get the deal she clearly wanted.

She`s not able to see those kids whenever she wants. And Michael Jackson can take those kids whenever he wants out of the country for as long as he wants, even permanently.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction, Anne, I didn`t know that you could actually fashion supervision for children where you can dictate what is told to the child. For instance, she can`t tell she`s their biological mom?

BREMNER: Well, but, Nancy, I was just thinking. This is a Halloween nightmare bringing back the Michael Jackson case for Jim Moret and for me, hearing "Thriller." I mean, that whole two-day love letter of testimony from Debbie Rowe to Michael Jackson, when she sold the kids, Nancy. She sold them.

And they`re now seven and eight. She has no part of their lives. And so why can she come in now and say, "Oh, I`m your mother"? You know, when she testified, I thought, and I said, you know, Michael Jackson should give his first-born child to her for what she did in saving his behind in that case.

But you know what? She gave her first-born to Michael Jackson and her second-born, and she sold them for millions of dollars. And so I think in this instance Michael Jackson`s trying to protect those kids, because they have -- she is not their mother.

GRACE: OK. Are you suggesting that somebody else gave birth to them? Anne, yes, no?

BREMNER: Nancy, I don`t know. But the answer is, she sold them.

GRACE: OK, we all know that she is the biological mother.

BREMNER: She did. She did. She is the mother.

GRACE: And to Robi Ludwig, I have never heard of a scenario where a mother, a biological mother, is disallowed from telling that to her children.

LUDWIG: Right, unless this was an arrangement where she was a surrogate of sorts, where they entered into the marriage where she said, "I will have these children for you, and they will be your children. And I don`t really want children myself. So they are yours."

And they worked out some arrangement. And perhaps she`s had a change of heart. But biologically they are her children and it would probably be good for them to know that.

GRACE: Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin."

FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this woman, Rosemary Molder, wanted in connection with the `89 Texas murder of her 5-year-old stepson, Rayshon Omar Alexxander-Molder.

Thirty-eight, 5`1", 123 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Rosemary Molder, call the FBI at 915-832-5000.

Local news next for some of you. We`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage on a Texas mom on trial for murder, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us as we remember tonight U.S. Marine Sergeant Michael Paul Hodshire, just 25 years old, an American hero.


GRACE: Before we say good night, I want to quickly go back to Jim Moret. So the biological mother of Jackson`s children is allegedly disallowed from telling them she`s their mother. Is she going to contest this?

MORET: There`s no indication that she is. There has been months of legal wrangling just to get to this point. And don`t forget, she and Michael Jackson signed a contract when they got married. She said that she basically gave these kids to Michael. That`s probably where it stands.

GRACE: So bottom line, no contest.

MORET: That`s the bottom line.

GRACE: Thanks, Jim.

But I want to thank all of my guests tonight. Our biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. A special Halloween good night from the control room. And I asked my staff to dress up in the scariest outfit they could. And this is what they came up with.

What are you guys?


GRACE: That`s not a very nice Halloween. OK. I`m scared.

Happy Halloween, everybody. A special good night from all of the staff. My Halloween wish: For all the monsters to stay behind bars.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. We`re signing off tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Have a spooky Halloween. And until tomorrow, good night, friends.