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Nancy Grace

What Did Deepak Kalpoe Tell Investigators?

Aired December 01, 2005 - 20:00   ET


DIANE DIMOND, GUEST HOST: Tonight: Did Deepak Kalpoe really have sex with Natalee Holloway the night she disappeared on the tiny island of Aruba? A new tape now tells a different story.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us tonight. New evidence in the Christie Wilson murder case. Twenty-seven-year-old Christie, missing now for nearly two months, reportedly had a gambling problem, was depressed and had tried suicide not long ago. The night she disappeared from a California casino, she was seen on a surveillance tape kissing a married man named Mario Garcia, he now charged with her murder.

Also tonight, new developments in the case of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Was Deepak Kalpoe intimate with Natalee the night she vanished on the island of Aruba? Dutch officials now say that a tape that aired on U.S. television making that claim was altered. Now we have the uncut version, where Kalpoe clearly answers that he did not have sex with Natalee the night she disappeared. But keep in mind as you listen to this tape, it came from Aruban authorities.


JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Nobody forced her to drink then that night?


SKEETERS: Nobody told her that you can`t (DELETED) her -- you know? I mean, and I`m sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)

KALPOE: No, she didn`t.

SKEETERS: OK, well, I mean, good. If she did, fine.

KALPOE: You would be surprised how simple it was that night.


DIMOND: Now, that`s not what aired on the Dr. Phil show on September 15 of this year. When that T.V. show first reveled an audiotape they said that their own investigator got with Kalpoe, it sounded very different. Listen closely.


SKEETERS: If it was an accident, I can help all of you. If you guys were partying, even if somebody had given her a date drug -- I`m sure she had sex with all of you.

KALPOE: She did. You`d be surprised how simple it was.


DIMOND: That`s from the tape that aired on the Dr. Phil show September 15, the interview between Deepak Kalpoe and an investigator that the show hired. His name was Jamie Skeeters.

So what are we all to think about this? What happens in a case where one person says he said, yes, he did have sex, and one says, absolutely, he did not?

I want to bring in Jane Velez-Mitchell now. She`s out in Los Angeles and has been following the story from the get-go. Jane, are you with us?


DIMOND: Now, you`re right out there in California, and I got to tell you, we`ve been trying to call the Dr. Phil show to get some sort of response from them. We get nothing, except tonight one of our senior producers here talked to Jamie Skeeters, the investigator, and he said that he stands by the tape that the Dr. Phil show aired. But the Aruban authorities say it`s something different. Which one do we believe, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t think we can make that decision right now. I think this is the battle of the dueling clips, at this point. What I`d love to see is the Nancy Grace show getting its hands on the entire two-hour interview and let the producers, who I trust there, listen to the whole thing and make a decision because we all know that tapes can be edited which way and that. And now we have either side basically saying that these tapes were doctored. And we don`t know until we hear ourselves the actual raw tape.

But I think the bigger picture is this is very bad news for the family. This was a theory, that she had been sexually assaulted, that the family was kind of hanging its hat on as far as, OK, this was something that was a crime, charge somebody with rape. And now that`s been sort of thrown into doubt, and it kind of gives the case a "back to square one" feeling. So I have a lot of sympathy to the mother right now because she`s been trying so hard to find out some truth. But this whole case has been kind of the Bermuda Triangle of truth.

DIMOND: Right. Exactly. And again, it`s all back to the family and what happened to Natalee. You know, throughout this whole case, Jane, there have been these twists and these turns and these side roads that we go down. I`m wondering, how important is this, anyway? We have Beth Holloway Twitty standing by, and we`re going to bring her in in just a second. But how important is this, whether or not he admits on a crudely edited tape or a non-edited tape whether or not he had sex with her? She`s still missing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it was significant because it gave us something to kind of try and put this mystery into context. If we decided or determined that these three young men had sex with her and has possibly raped her, then that`s a crime that occurred and it provides a motive. Without that, you go back to this total blank mystery. She disappears.

One thing I will say is nobody in this case, besides the mother, Beth Twitty, has much credibility. You have the Aruban government and the authorities botching the case at the very beginning. They didn`t arrest these young men for 10 days, giving them a chance to get their stories together. These young men originally pointed to some security guards and tried to blame it all on them, lied repeatedly.

DIMOND: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joran Van Der Sloot, the chief suspect, changed his story 22 times. So who do you believe?

DIMOND: Well, we have a spokesperson with the Aruban task force coming up, but I want to get to Beth Holloway Twitty immediately. Beth, thanks for being with us TONIGHT. What do you make of this controversy? I mean, did the Dr. Phil show perhaps edit that incorrectly? I mean, did you ever hear the whole tape?

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: I do. I have the entire -- the tape in its entirety, and I have reviewed it just over and over again. One thing, though, that I -- you know, that is consistent in all of these tapes is he says, You`d be surprised how simple it was that night. I mean, you cannot miss that on the copy that I have. And it just wouldn`t make sense for him to say that she did not have sex with them, you would be surprised how simple it was that night. It just doesn`t fit.

DIMOND: But Beth, when we look at the tape, the raw tape that we got our hands on today -- we got it from the Aruban authorities -- there is a - - the fan up in the ceiling -- the camera`s at an odd angle -- and it seems to be twirling correctly, and there doesn`t seem to be an edit in the tape. And when he`s asked the question, Did you have sex, you see the back of Kalpoe`s head shaking no. Is that what you saw on the original tape?

TWITTY: Well, I think what Jug and Dave and I were coming to when we were watching that, it`s almost as if Deepak catches Mr. Skeeters off guard by responding, She did, and then he responds -- then he responds as if -- as if an affirmation of, No, she did, you`d be surprised how simple it was that night.

DIMOND: So you believe that this boy and the other two likely did have sex with your daughter.

TWITTY: Well, we know one thing for sure, Diane, is Deepak -- is Joran Van Der Sloot has admitted to having sex with my daughter in one of his statements. We do know that. So the Aruban government has audio and videotape of these confessions coming from Joran Van Der Sloot.

DIMOND: You know, I`m sort of with Jane Velez-Mitchell. I just don`t know what to think at this point.

I want to bring in the Aruban spokesperson. Her name is Arlene Ellis Schipper, and she speaks for the Aruban task force. Welcome to the broadcast, ma`am. Can you tell me...


DIMOND: ... first of all, what is this task force you`re speaking on behalf of?

SCHIPPER: Well, the task force is a combination of concerned people of Aruba, as well as the government. And what we are doing is actually constantly monitoring this case and finding and promoting the truth and stimulating everything, from both support to the family...


DIMOND: But it`s not just -- you don`t speak for the police and the prosecution.


DIMOND: You also speak for the merchants and the hotel operators on the island?



DIMOND: Don`t you think that`s a little bit in conflict there?


DIMOND: I mean, aren`t we after the truth and not really worrying what the hotel managers want?

SCHIPPER: We are after the truth because Aruba has nothing to gain with not telling the truth or covering up. Aruba wants to get this case solved. And I want to make something clear. The fact that we focus now on this outcome of the NFI, the Dutch forensic institute, is because -- not because we have joined the team, the defense team of Mr. Kalpoe. We don`t go about that. This is because this has been pounded for eight weeks in the media, in the international media, and set the scene for a call for a boycott because...

DIMOND: Yes, it has.


SCHIPPER: ... that we have evidence here that was supposedly the truth and it was crystal clear that there was an admittance and the authorities refused to arrest this suspect.

DIMOND: All right...



SCHIPPER: ... first of all...

DIMOND: Let`s get back to the new stuff here. The new stuff is this tape that came from the Aruban authorities. You`re in Aruba right now. You are a practicing attorney there. Tell me what you believe is the real version of this tape. Does Kalpoe say, Yes, I did, we did have sex, it was so easy, or does he say no?

SCHIPPER: First of all -- well, he said -- I saw the viewing. I saw the CD-ROM, and he says, No, she didn`t, and he nods his head. He shakes his head no. He has nonverbal communication confirming his denial. However, I want to set something straight. You keep calling this the Aruban tape. This is not the Aruban tape.

DIMOND: Where did it come from?

SCHIPPER: Yes, we sent it to you, but it was taken directly from the CD-ROM that Mr. Skeeters sent to the police here, and that is...


DIMOND: How interesting. OK. OK. Got it. Got it. It`s just -- you know, we`re trying to figure out which version is authentic. I want to bring in Harold Copus now. Harold, a former federal agent here in America, was -- Harold, were you also hired by the Dr. Phil show to go to Aruba to investigate?


DIMOND: And you were there the day after Mr. Skeeters did this interview with Kalpoe, right?

COPUS: That is correct.

DIMOND: And what -- tell us about Mr. Skeeters, his integrity. I mean, was he excited? Did he say, Hey, I got a confession on tape, or what?

COPUS: Well, certainly, that was a break, and certainly, he was excited. From an integrity standpoint, I think it`d be difficult to question Mr. Skeeters`s integrity. He`s former law enforcement, I believe a police chief out in California, head of the California Polygraph Association. I don`t think there`s any debate about the integrity. I think there may be a question about the way it was edited, but that`s another story.

DIMOND: Well, yes, let`s get into that story because our producer here, Eric Maripoti (ph), talked to Mr. Skeeters just a little while ago. He said he stands by the Dr. Phil version. He apparently was in meetings on there on the Paramount lot, which is the parent company of the Dr. Phil show, all day. We tried to get comments from some of them. We`re not getting any comments from them. Do you have any personal knowledge of what was originally said and what aired, to compare the two?

COPUS: No, I don`t. And what I would say to you, I think the proper thing to do now, because of the controversy, is that a full transcript needs to be produced. And then you compare that to what was shown on the Dr. Phil show to see if anything was taken out of context. I don`t think it was, but that`s the only way any of us will ever know.

DIMOND: Yes. Well, you know, when I look at the transcript that we made of these two tapes, the boy says, you know, No, we didn`t. I`m sure that she had sex with all of you. She did. You`d be surprised how simple it was, on the other version. So did Mr. Skeeters say anything to you about he repeatedly asked this question and got different answers? Maybe that`s the solution here.

COPUS: Well, that could be an answer and a solution. No, he didn`t say that to me. I really think what has to be done again is go back for a full transcript. I remember doing that when we were in the FBI. That`s the only way that you will solve this issue right now.

DIMOND: Well, and then compare it to the tape and see if there are any dips and beeps and any editing of the tape from which the transcript was made. Harold Copus and everybody, stand by. We`re going to take a quick break now. We have a legal panel standing by to tell us what this might mean to the Natalee Holloway case.

But now to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." After several days of witness impact statements, a Florida jury is expected to decide Joseph Smith`s sentence, life or death. Smith was convicted of the kidnap, rape and murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia. Prosecutors want the death penalty. The defense pleaded for his life to be spent in prison. Carlie`s abduction gained national attention when videotape from a security camera outside a car wash showed her being led away by Joseph Smith.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joe Smith will have to suffer with his crimes every day for the rest of his life. He will die in prison, the only question is how. The loss of Carlie Brucia is a terrible, horrible thing. But I would suggest to you that recommending the execution of Joe Smith will not do anything to bring her back or to honor her memory.




JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Nobody forced her to drink then that night?


SKEETERS: Nobody told her that you can`t (DELETED) her -- you know? I mean, and I`m sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)

KALPOE: No, she didn`t.

SKEETERS: OK, well, I mean, good. If she did, fine.

KALPOE: You would be surprised how simple it was that night.



SKEETERS: If it was an accident, I can help all of you. If you guys were partying, even if somebody had given her a date drug -- I`m sure she had sex with all of you.

KALPOE: She did. You`d be surprised how simple it was.


DIMOND: Welcome back. I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace. More on which version of that Deepak Kalpoe interview is the right one, which one was edited. Are they both bona fide or what? But right now, I want to remind everybody it was May 30, 2005 when beautiful Natalee Holloway went missing. She was in Aruba with her class and was never seen again.

Her mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, is with us now. And Beth, I just want to spend a few minutes talking only to you and just asking you how you`re doing, after all these weeks and months. You`re back home now, aren`t you?

TWITTY: I am. I`m in Birmingham now, Diane.

DIMOND: Yes. How do you do it? May 30, 2005. I was in your beautiful city. I know you have a lot of support there, your sister-in- law, her husband and your wide friends and family. But how do you do it every day?

TWITTY: Well, you`re exactly right. It`s all the support that we have. And to be honest, I can`t believe it`s been six months. It just doesn`t seem like it`s been that long. I mean, you know, we think back to those couple of -- the first few weeks when we were on the island and how the officials kept telling us, We`re going to have an answer tomorrow, we`ll have an answer at 2:00 PM, we`ll have an answer in two weeks.


TWITTY: I mean, we just kept thinking they were being honest with us and we were going to have an answer. And it`s just hard to believe it`s been six months.

DIMOND: And now you`ve hired John Q. Kelly, an attorney that I know, to help you. There`s strain between you and the Aruban authorities. I mean, I can hear it when I talk to them and when I talk to you. Do you think John can help bridge the gap there?

TWITTY: Well, we`re certainly hoping that he can do that. You know, our communication line was terminated, I guess this was the end of August, by Karin Janssen. She not only terminated her communication with us but also would not allow our family liaison to receive any updates from the lead detective, Eric Sumer (ph). So we have been in the dark, and we really need to be advised as to what`s happening in the investigation and where they are and if they`re moving forward or...

DIMOND: Right.

TWITTY: ... what. We don`t even know about searches or anything.

DIMOND: But, you know what the complaint was, that they would tell you what things were happening in the investigation, and then you would come on television and sort of spill the beans. I mean, is that something maybe won`t happen now if John Q. Kelly is the go-between?

TWITTY: Well, there`s certainly one thing we never did, and we never damaged the integrity of the investigation, and the Aruban officials only can accept that responsibility. And we know that.

DIMOND: You know, I`ve interviewed so many parents that have lost children or children who have been murdered or are still missing, like yours, and I know the holidays are particularly hard. Are you worried about that?

TWITTY: Well, it`s almost as if, I think right now, that our way of dealing with the holidays or -- it`s almost as if I`m avoiding them. And I guess I feel as if I can get through it, and if that`s my best way of dealing with it, then that`s how I am. And you know, I realize one day that, you know, I`ll have to face the holidays at home. But right now, I just -- I`m just kind of escaping from it.

DIMOND: Right. I talked to your sister-in-law when I was in Birmingham, and she said, you know, you used to be, like, a size 4 and now you`re a size 0. Are you taking care of yourself?

TWITTY: Well, you know what? I`m trying, but it`s just been so hard. And we`re just -- you know, we just feel like that if we just keep working hard and we just keep hanging in there, we will have answers. I just feel the answers are there, they have been there all along. And we are just determined.

DIMOND: Well, God bless you, and we are all praying for you, as well. Stand by, Beth.

Now time for tonight`s "Case Alert." The Children`s Safety Act is facing a vote before the Senate, and we need to make sure that it passes. We`ve already seen too many children victimized. The bill would create a unified national sex offender registry and would stiffen penalties for offenders who fail to register. Contact your senator and urge them -- urge them! -- to pass this bill.



TWITTY: There is a taped confession from Deepak Kalpoe that they all had sex with my daughter. And we were told early on that, you know, new evidence, when it`s brought forward, that it would warrant the reincarceration of these suspects. And we felt like even as early as, you know, 1st of July that we could be heading towards, you know, kidnapping and rape charges against these young men definitively.


TWITTY: Yes. You know, I`ve said that they went ahead and actually killed my daughter. We have never said it because we do not know that. It doesn`t look good. But kidnapping and rape, at least.


DIMOND: Confusion now over that so-called confession by Deepak Kalpoe. I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Welcome back.

Let go right out to Harold Copus. He is a private investigator, former FBI, who worked with the man who allegedly got this confession from Deepak Kalpoe. Now, Harold Copus, during the commercial break, investigator Skeeters called you, right? What did he just tell you? This is like breaking news here.

COPUS: Well, you know, it certainly is. And what he said to me was, is that what he sent down to Aruba was a copy. Now, what bothers all of us from a law enforcement standpoint is that we`re working from copies, not from the original. So Jamie told me just a few moments ago that copies were sent down to Aruba, then copies, I guess, were made from that.

What bothers -- what should bother all of us is that we need to get our hands on that original hard drive, make a proper forensic copy of it and do our transcript from that. Otherwise, there`s just confusion reigning over people pointing fingers, and it may be much ado about nothing.

DIMOND: What -- now, Harold, I`m confused now. Does Mr. Skeeters seem to think that the copy he sent to Aruba was then edited, or that there was some damage on the tape? Or what`s he saying?

COPUS: Well, he -- what he was saying to me is it very well could have been damaged on the tape because he -- the copy had been made. There was what he called a beta copy made by the Dr. Phil show. Now...

DIMOND: That`s a certain type of tape, right.

COPUS: That`s right. That`s a certain type tape. And so at this stage, we`re not dealing with original material. We need to go back to the original material and get to the bottom of this.

DIMOND: This is fascinating. Fascinating. Harold Copus, do you think that there`s a way to really tell which one is which or to tell if it has been altered in some way?

COPUS: Well, from a forensic standpoint, you certainly could, but you have to go back to the original hard drive, who possesses that hard drive...

DIMOND: Well, who does? Is it with the FBI now?

COPUS: You know, I don`t know. I can`t tell you. I would hope it was sent to the FBI. What bothers me, if it wasn`t, then that -- you know, it just makes more of a chance of an error and someone could point more fingers...

DIMOND: OK. Now, Harold, during the commercial break, call some guys at the FBI and ask for us.

We`re going to take a quick break. Be right back.


MIKE GALANOS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos with a look at some of the stories making headlines right now.

The Supreme Court has rejected a final appeal from death row inmate Kenneth Lee Boyd. That means, barring unlikely clemency from North Carolina`s governor, Boyd will be executed tomorrow. And that would make him the 1,000th inmate to die since the death penalty was reinstated. That was back in 1976.

Well, you may have heard of this story. A 16-year-old said, "I will take responsibility. I will be dad to my little baby." The Terrell Pough inspirational story ended in tragedy. A few weeks ago, he was shot in cold blood. And now police in Philadelphia have two suspects in custody.

Coming up on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," we`re going to try and answer the question: Who would want to hurt this man and why?

We`re following another story for you. A cussing crackdown at a couple of high schools in Connecticut. You may wonder, how do you punish kids who are cussing at teachers and school administrators? Well, how about a $100 fine? We`ll tell you what the students think and also get a progress report from one school administrator. That`s coming up on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," right after NANCY GRACE. We`ll see you then.

DIMOND: There is breaking news to report to you tonight. Just moments ago, the jury in the Joseph Smith case, the kidnapping and murder of Carlie Brucia, has decided -- has recommended that the judge impose the death penalty. It took them a little over five hours to find him guilty of the little girl`s murder, the 11-year-old, Carlie Brucia. It took them a little over five hours to recommend the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The court stands adjourned.

DIMOND: And there goes Joseph Smith to see his fate. Let`s bring in Wendy Murphy now. She`s a prosecutor, a former prosecutor. Wendy, you`ve been there, done that. You`ve won some really big cases. What`s going through the prosecutor`s mind at this point?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, you know, I happen to be from a jurisdiction that doesn`t have death penalty. But you can bet that the prosecutors are feeling very satisfied.

Diane, you`ve covered this case. I`ve covered it from day one. This was a rock-solid, basically slam dunk case against this guy. And, at the end, he really had no remorse. No matter how you feel about the death penalty, if ever there was a case where it would be appropriate, it`s for a monster like this. He raped and brutally murdered a little girl, stole her on video in front of all us for the nation to watch, made us terrified to let our kids walk out our front doors. He deserves to die.

DIMOND: Let`s bring in the reporter Ryan Rafferdy. He is at the scene there. Ryan, can you hear me? Talk to me about mood inside that courtroom.

RYAN RAFFERDY, REPORTER, WSRQ 1450: Hi, good evening, Diane. Of course, Susan Schorpen was in the courtroom tonight, also Joseph Smith`s family, in the form of the mother and sister. Susan Schorpen obviously breathing a big sigh of relief, kind of breaking down, as we speak, you know, reacting to what it in her mind could probably be good news and bring a little closure to the case.

DIMOND: Yes, we`re looking at pictures of Carlie Brucia`s mother now. She, like Beth Holloway Twitty, who we were just talking to a moment ago, has been through the ringer.

Remind me now. It was Super Bowl Sunday, 2004, when Carlie was kidnapped, is that right?

RAFFERDY: Yes, it was Super Bowl Sunday 2004, correct, February 1, 2004. And, actually, that`s the day -- the day after, actually is when we got the video of her being abducted in that car wash in Sarasota, Florida. And then that video, of course, was shown around the world.

And, of course, that`s one ever the key cases, or one of the key pieces of evidence that the prosecutors used in this case, Diane, was that car wash surveillance tape, to convict Joseph Smith.

DIMOND: Oh, you know, that -- it just sent a chill through my spine when I first saw that. I`m the mother of a daughter. And I can`t imagine what her mother had to go through watching that be played over and over again, the last moment of freedom for her daughter.

Ryan Rafferdy, you`re the reporter on the scene there. Tell us now, what happens next? The jury, what was it, a 10-2 vote for the death penalty? But this is just a recommendation. When does a judge actually pass sentence?

RAFFERDY: Well, it`s hard to tell at this point. I don`t know that answer. But, again, that is just a recommendation. The judge necessarily does not have to go along with the jury`s recommendation, of course.

But I`ve heard from legal analysts today that the judge would probably be pretty crazy not to go along with this recommendation, because, of course, the judge here is an elected position in Sarasota County. So, you know, obviously, this case has outraged a lot of people, not here in Sarasota and Manatee County, but around the world.

DIMOND: Across the country, absolutely.

Let`s bring in Anne Bremner. She is a renowned defense attorney. And you and I last saw each other out at the Michael Jackson trial.


DIMOND: And what do you tell a defendant who has just heard what this man heard, 10-2 death penalty? Now it`s up to the judge. But like Ryan says, usually they go with what the jury recommends. What do you say to a client like that?

BREMNER: It`s just awful. I was thinking to myself, Diane, childhoods end -- childhood shouldn`t end with a child of 10 or 11. You say to a client like that, "The judge is going to impose a death penalty."

And it`s simply a case where you hope that there`s some kind of avenue for appeals in procedural or other errors in the underlying case. But right now, there is no solace here. There`s nothing that you really can do.

And, Diane, you`ve seen a lot of trials. And we went through the Michael Jackson trial together. But this one is a very somber moment that will between his attorney and his client.

DIMOND: You know, let`s bring in Tom Curran, too. Tom, also a defense attorney. Tom, in a death penalty case like this, there is an automatic appeal, is there not? Isn`t that what you kind of have your client pin their hopes on?

TOM CURRAN, PROSECUTOR: Well, absolutely. And you`ve prepared your case all along. There`s nothing you can say to your client tonight, obviously. You`ve prepared him all along for the losses that you`re going to suffer, particularly when a case like this, which is a slam dunk, and, in all likelihood, the death penalty is going to be imposed.

And that you hope that you`ve created a record along the way such that you have reasonable and credible grounds upon which to appeal. This is a very difficult case. And I`m not a fan of the death penalty. But somebody tell me how it doesn`t apply in this case? Because if it doesn`t, then maybe we should just get rid of it.

DIMOND: You know, you should hear the arguments across my breakfast table between me and my husband. I probably shouldn`t even tell you which side of the death penalty case I`m on or the whole issue.

But let`s bring in Bethany Marshall. She is a psychoanalyst. And, Bethany, I guess the question to you is: What`s the dynamic now inside all these peoples` lives?

I mean, you look at this man`s mother, who was sobbing -- sobbing -- in the courtroom. And you look at Carlie Brucia`s mother, sobbing for very different reasons. She`s happy that this was the recommendation. These two mothers, in the same courtroom, but two very different problems for them ahead.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think that Carlie`s mother summed it up best at a press conference when she said this is a true disaster. There`s no other way to think about it. It`s a disaster for the defendant`s family. It`s a disaster for Carlie`s family.

And a lot of people have asked me, what can the mother do now to move on? You know, she can make meaning out of Carlie`s death. She can help other victims. She can try to reminisce and put the past, what she had with her daughter, behind her.

But the fact is: Everybody`s life is irrevocably changed. And everyone has to say now the future is forever altered; it will never be the same again.

DIMOND: Right. And you try to get through a certain point and you think, "OK, I`ll get past that verdict, and then everything will be fine." And it`s not. It`s always a long road to hoe.

MARSHALL: But you know what it does, it re-traumatizes the family to be in court, so even when the verdict is handed down, it doesn`t necessarily make the mothers feel better; it just re-traumatizes them to have to visit the crime in their mind.

DIMOND: You know, I want to bring Ryan Rafferdy in, because, Ryan, we`re starting to get some wire copy here. And it says, at one point during the prosecutor`s closing argument, Debra Riva, someone stood up in the courtroom and said, "Let`s string him up now"?

RAFFERDY: Yes, indeed.

DIMOND: What was that about?

RAFFERDY: Well, apparently, that person was for the death penalty, just going by his statements in court today. But I have to give kudos to the prosecutor, Debra Riva, who just continued on with her closing argument, right after -- like immediately after the deputies escorted this man out of the courtroom.

DIMOND: My, my.

RAFFERDY: He has been charged -- he has officially been charged in Sarasota County.

DIMOND: With a misdemeanor. For those of you just tuning in, let`s remind you what`s just happened. In the case of Carlie Brucia, the verdict announced just a few minutes ago.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... State of Florida versus Joseph P. Smith, 2004-CF-2129, the advisory sentence, a majority of the jury, by the vote of 10-2, advise and recommend to the court that impose the death penalty upon the defendant.


DIMOND: You know, Smith originally pleaded not guilty, did he not, Ryan Rafferdy? What happened with that?

RAFFERDY: The defense stance all along was that somebody else -- somebody other than Joseph Smith kidnapped this girl, Carlie Brucia, raped her, and ultimately murdered her.

DIMOND: And then, in the final analysis, there they were arguing, "Well, don`t put him to death, because really he`ll get a worse punishment if you make him live the rest of his life in prison," because inmates don`t like child molester and killers.

RAFFERDY: Yes, exactly.

DIMOND: Yes. Ryan Rafferdy, thanks a lot for being with us, all of you. We`re going to continue on the other side. Stay with us. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... State of Florida versus Joseph P. Smith, 2004-CF-2129, the advisory sentence, a majority of the jury, by the vote of 10-2, advise and recommend to the court that impose the death penalty upon the defendant.


DIMOND: Joseph Smith pretty impassive as the jury, just moments ago, recommended the death penalty for Joseph Smith in the kidnap and sexual assault and murder of little Carlie Brucia, just 11 years old when she disappeared walking home from a sleepover on Super Bowl Sunday, 2004.

Wendy Murphy is with us now, a former prosecutor. Wendy, walk us through this now. There`s an automatic appeal. And then these fellows that get the death penalty often sit on death row for years and years. This is not a man going to his death any time soon?

MURPHY: No. And, really, it`s important to remember that he gets plenary review, which is complete and full review, even if his lawyers don`t raise good arguments on appeal. The courts look really carefully at the potential problems at trial to make sure that he got all the due process to which he was entitled.

And, you know, I don`t think there is any chance this guy won`t face death at some point. So, really, his lawyer`s job at this point is to buy him a day at a time and see how long he can keep him alive.

But I`ll tell you something, Diane, it`s stunned me when you said 10- 2, or when I heard the head juror there announce that the vote was 10-2.

DIMOND: You wondered who the two were.

MURPHY: I mean, come on. We`ve got to check their IQs. Were they dead?


How can you vote against -- because here`s the point: I`m against the death penalty, so it`s not an issue for me personally to, you know, want to kill somebody. But if you have a death penalty state, the only way to spare a guy`s life is to find mitigating factors. And there was nothing, nothing mitigating going on for this guy. I think he said he had a drug problem. Well, yes.

DIMOND: Oh, and he had some back pain and he had battled depression...

MURPHY: That`s called an aggravating factor, not a mitigating factor. I don`t see -- those two juries should be investigated, I think.


Tom Curran, jump in here now. The vote was 10-2 by this jury in a death penalty state. They had to already say that they could impose the death penalty to even get on that jury. Does that give you a little hope as a defense attorney?

CURRAN: Not in this case, it doesn`t. Only hope that these two get psychiatric help. No, no.


DIMOND: So you`re agreeing with Wendy Murphy? My goodness, mark the time.

CURRAN: Oh, absolutely. As a former prosecutor myself, you know, I can defend anything, but, you know, you can`t make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.


This is a compelling case.

DIMOND: I`m so glad you changed that. Thank you very much. You know, this is a family show. I got you.

Anne Bremner, you know, in the trial itself, the defense attorney chose not to do a closing argument. Do you think that was good strategy? He was pretty roundly criticized for that.

BREMNER: Well, I think it was a terrible decision. I mean, you just stand and say -- you know, wave the flag, you know, Diane, "I give up." I just can`t believe there`d be any strategy for that, except for, on this automatic appeal, which is ineffective assistance of counsel.

And one other thing, Diane, in terms of this sentence, proportionality? You know, Gary Ridgway out here in Seattle, the Green River Killer...

DIMOND: Yes, I remember that.

BREMNER: ... pled guilty to killing 48 women. And he got life. So I think there is a defense here, when you`re only dealing with just the one victim taking the defense side. Forty-eight dead women, and he got life.

DIMOND: Well, now that`s into the old -- that`s the whole argument about whether we should have, you know, the death penalty...

BREMNER: It`s true, Diane.

DIMOND: ... routinely put -- in all the states the same way.

I want to bring in our psychologist again and ask about the mind of this man now, Joseph Smith. We watched him being walked out that door. We watched him, first, being very impassive as the verdict was read.

He`s walked out the door, and now he`s sitting all by himself in a cell. This is a man with drug problems. You know, he doesn`t seem to be in touch with reality. But this has got to have sunk into his head, doesn`t it?

MARSHALL: You know, I`m not so sure. And I`ll tell you why.

If he`s a psychopath, and he certainly seems to be -- I mean, the brutality of the crime, the lack of remorse, the fact that the semen was on the back of the shirt, not the front, implies a type of sadism -- psychopaths do not experience anxiety when they have negative consequences to their actions.

And that`s why they offend again and again and again. And so, when you look at these offenders, once they`re put in jail or they`re put on death row, they don`t really experience it like you and I would. It`s like they have an emotional under-arousal.

And so, when you think about that, we can`t look at his face and say, "Oh, my god, what is he thinking? Would I feel the same way?" Because he`s a different animal. And animal is the operative word.

DIMOND: And, you know, all of us on this panel I`m sure have interviewed or talked to people like this with the dead eyes. They just have completely dead eyes.

The one in that courtroom, I noticed, after the verdict without the dead eyes was Carlie Brucia`s mother. She was for the death penalty. The father of Carlie Brucia, interestingly, was not for the death penalty.

I want you to take a listen to her mother, Susan Schorpen, before this verdict came out.


SUSAN SCHORPEN, CARLIE BRUCIA`S MOTHER: The fact that I can never hold her again and I can never speak to her again -- I mean, I am so broken, you know? And he`s got years where he`s going to eat and he`s going to sleep. And, you know, he`s going to get more years on appeals than my daughter had in life, and I`ve got a problem with that.

I lost everything. You know, I`m broken. I don`t know if I`m ever going to fix again. All I can do right now is take whatever opportunities come my way, and try and better my life, and try and become a whole person again. Maybe I can help some other people who, you know, under tragedy get stuck with the same predicament I got stuck in.


DIMOND: She`s broken, her child is dead, and he has got years to eat and sleep and live. Wendy Murphy, that makes me really mad.

MURPHY: Oh, you know, it really brings tears to my eyes. I mean, it`s so frustrating to hear a mother say that. I`ve got five little kids myself. I so identify with that feeling of, what do you do? How do you wake up tomorrow?

DIMOND: I still can`t believe you have five kids. But...


MURPHY: Sometimes...


DIMOND: I remember you being pregnant with many of them. So I believe you. But it`s right. Just your heart goes out to the them.

MURPHY: But you know what`s interesting? You know what`s interesting, Diane? I mean, she`s been through so much. And it`s been a long haul getting to the day of not only having the trial completed and having the sentence, and he`s found guilty, I think, actually, today she`s going to start to suffer in a very different way.

Because there`s some kind -- you know, the energy of the trial keeps her going for a while. Starting tomorrow morning, I think she`s going to wake up and just lay back down and stay in bed for another year. It`s really tomorrow when she starts to suffer the most, because it`s really over now.

DIMOND: Yes, I have seen that in so many cases. And you`re absolutely right: You get through it with the energy you`ve got. And, you know, after the verdict, everything will be fine, and then it`s not fine. That`s when the reality sets in.

All right. Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for William George Barney. He is wanted in connection with sexual assault on a minor. Now, take a good look at this man, Barney, 55 years old, 5`9", weighs about 200 bounds, brown hair, blue eyes.

If you have any information on William Barney, please get to the telephone, call the FBI at this number, 702-385-1281. Local news for some of you is coming up next, and we`ll be right back.

Stay with us as we remember U.S. Army Staff Sergeant Aram Bass, 25 years old, an American hero.



JOEY BRUCIA, CARLIE BRUCIA`S FATHER: I only saw her twice a year, two weeks at a clip. But now see can see me always. She`s in a better place. She got there in a horrific manner, but now she`s watching me all the time.


DIMOND: Carlie Brucia`s father, who was not in favor of the death penalty. But in very swift fashion, the jury in Sarasota, Florida, deciding just a short time ago to recommend the death penalty for her killer, Joseph Smith.

Ryan Rafferdy is a radio reporter there on the scene. He works for WSRQ. Ryan, thanks for staying with us.

Now, we`re getting wire copy here that says the judge in this case, Judge Andrew Owens, may impose the sentence -- because today was only a recommendation by the jury -- as early as next month.

RAFFERDY: Yes, that`s very likely. And, obviously, it`s something that`s not going to happen tonight. As you say, it`s just Smith being booked and taken away back to Port Manatee.

One thing, if I could add, Diane, was one thing I think that sealed the deal for Joseph Smith getting the needle yesterday was the fact that he wrote a letter to a current inmate at the Manatee County Jail, where he is staying, and how this inmate -- who is, by the way, in jail, charged with killing his parents -- on how this inmate could take care of another inmate in jail who was giving him trouble.

DIMOND: Oh my.

RAFFERDY: So Joseph Smith wrote this letter to another inmate saying, "Hey, this is how you can take care of another inmate who`s giving you hell."

DIMOND: We have Carlie Brucia`s mother on the phone. Ms. Brucia, we have about 30 seconds. Your thoughts right now?

SCHORPEN: My thoughts? Thank God. That`s my thoughts right now. Thank God. He`s just not going to die fast enough for me.

DIMOND: You know, we saw you in absolute tears in that courtroom. Were they tears of joy?

SCHORPEN: But, you know, she`s still gone, you know. And him dying doesn`t make up for it, but at least he can never hurt another child. He will never put his hands on another child again.

DIMOND: Susan Schorpen, thank you very much.

SCHORPEN: Thank you.

DIMOND: Our time is up. We appreciate it. Thanks for being with us tonight.

SCHORPEN: Take care.

DIMOND: I`m Diane Dimond in tonight for Nancy Grace. Nancy, don`t worry. She`ll be back here live tomorrow with all the latest legal stories that are important to you.

Coming up next, headlines from around the world. Have a great night. Stay safe.