Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace, CNNHN

Aired December 07, 2005 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. A federal air marshal shoots down and kills a passenger in Miami International Airport after that passenger threatened he had a bomb aboard American Airlines flight 924. And also tonight, breaking news out of Wisconsin in the case of missing 21- year-old Christine Rudy, the 6-month-pregnant mother-to-be. Human remains discovered tonight. Is it 21-year-old Christine Rudy?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news out of Thorpe (ph), Wisconsin. Human remains found. Could it be 21-year-old Christine Rudy? We are waiting right now here in the studio for an ID on those remains. Six-month-pregnant Rudy vanished, last seen on a Wisconsin roadside.

But first tonight, more breaking news. We go live to Miami. An American Airlines passenger shot and killed by a federal marshal. Did the passenger claim he had a bomb on board?


KARLINA GRIFFITH, GRANDDAUGHTER OF WITNESS: She said that she heard three gunshots, and then everyone was running -- like, everyone was going crazy. They got up and started running. And she went to go get me because I was in the restroom, and she went in there and she was, like, There`s an emergency. Hurry up and get out.


GRACE: I want to go straight out to Al Warnell, WIOD reporter, there on the scene. Al, thank you for being with us. Bring us up to date.

AL WARNELL, WIOD: Well, basically, we had this 44-year-old gentleman, Rigoberto Alpizar, who`s from Maitland (ph), Florida. He was aboard an aircraft today, American Airlines aircraft, which he had boarded in Quito, Ecuador, stopped in Miami. Apparently, it was going to go to Orlando. He got -- apparently came on board this aircraft.

What happened was, there was some kind of confrontation. From reports we got, he was sitting in the back of the aircraft with his wife, acting strange and erratic, and that drew the attention of the air marshals. They confronted him, or -- and ordered him -- were actually trying to find out what was going on. He apparently bolted from them, ran through the aircraft, and with the air marshals in hot pursuit. He had a backpack. At one point, he initially or he apparently muttered the fact that he had a bomb with him, and he reached for the backpack. And at that particular time, the air marshal fired on him and fatally killing him.

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding he was shot in the jetport. Where was his wife?

WARNELL: His wife was still aboard the aircraft. From reports we had, they said that she was trying to tell the air marshals, because there were more than one air marshal aboard, that this gentleman had -- he was bipolar and he had not taken his medication. So what happened was the fact that she never -- I guess never got a chance to explain that situation because this air marshal had to react to that situation. And you know, he was trying to protect the lives of those passengers aboard this aircraft.

GRACE: Take a listen to what a federal marshal had to say.


JAMES BAUER, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FEDERAL AIR MARSHALS SERVICE MIAMI: At approximately 2:10 this afternoon, American Airlines flight 924 was boarding at gate D-42. It was in the boarding process. An individual later tentatively identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, age 44, was boarding that aircraft, as well. At some point, he uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb. There were federal air marshals on board the aircraft. They came out of their cover, confronted him, and he remained non-compliant with their instructions. As he was attempting to evade them, his actions caused the FAMs to fire shots, and in fact, he is deceased.

The plane was cleared of all passengers, and the things -- the possessions that were in the deceased`s possession have been examined by Miami-Dade Police Department bomb squad and have been cleared. There were on explosives involved that we -- that we`re aware of, at least on this plane.


GRACE: Joining us now, a very special guest, Mary Schiavo. She is the former U.S. inspector general. Ms. Schiavo, thank you for being with us. This is the first time, to my understanding, to my research, that an air marshal has opened fire on or around a plane. What do you make of it?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER U.S. TRANSPORTATION DEPT. INSPECTOR GENERAL: Well, that`s correct, but also, this is a very different environment, both in terms of numbers of air marshals, but also in the threat environment after 9/11. And in the `90s, we only had -- I think when I left the Department of Transportation, we only had 33 air marshals. So we have a much greater force, and they have a stronger magnet (ph), if you will. They have a stronger calling because now they are defending in a post-9/11 world. So although it is the first, it`s not surprising, I guess, to me that it hasn`t happened before because, first of all, we didn`t have them on regularly -- regularly on flights. Often, the air marshals that we did have before 9/11 were only deployed on special flights, special escorts, high-risk environments or for VIP flights. So it`s a very different world now.

GRACE: Joining me right now out of Miami, there on the scene, John Zarrella, CNN correspondent. John, a lot going down today in Miami. Bring us up to date.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, what we can tell you is that the plane is still on the ground here at the airport, flight 924. It did not leave. It is still here. We are -- if you look at the American Airlines Web site, the flight is now listed as canceled.

The investigation is continuing, and a lot of unanswered questions yet. The FBI is going to be handling the investigation into Rigoberto Alpizar, and the Miami-Dade police are going to be handling the investigation into the shooting of Rigoberto Alpizar.

One of the things that`s not been answered, of course, is exactly how and why he was shot, the number of shots fired. Witnesses, people who were on the plane, some said they heard nothing, others have told us that they heard three shots. At a news briefing a couple of hours ago, Nancy, the federal officials here on the scene from the air marshals, from the FBI, would not confirm the number of shots fired, only that it took place in the jetway, is where Rigoberto Alpizar he was shot and killed -- Nancy.

GRACE: John Zarrella, he hardly fits the mold of a terrorist in any way. I mean, he`s travelling with his wife. He is a 44-year-old U.S. citizen on a domestic flight. He was not travelling from Colombia, correct?

ZARRELLA: Correct. He had come in from Ecuador, from Quito, on another flight and was transferring onto the Orlando flight, which had come in from Colombia, and that`s why it was going on to Orlando. We understand he may live somewhere north of Orlando.

No, you`re right, does not fit that. And the FBI, at this point, said in the news briefing they do not believe, at this point, that there was anything connected to terrorism involved in this. There`s been some speculation that he may have had some health problems, but at this point, none of that has been confirmed by his family, and certainly not by officials here, who refuse to get into any discussion as to what Rigoberto Alpizar`s motives were for claiming that he had a bomb just after he boarded that flight to Orlando.

But clearly, he would have cleared customs here in Miami. His luggage would have gone through metal detectors and been X-rayed. And in fact, Nancy, shortly -- we saw on the tarmac three of his pieces of luggage. The bomb squad safed (ph) those pieces of luggage with what are called disrupters, and the FBI did confirm that it was his luggage. But by doing that the way that they could confirm that there were no explosive devices on the plane -- Nancy.

GRACE: John, what`s a disrupter?

ZARRELLA: A disrupter -- it sends an electrical signal, a shock to the package. And if there is an explosive device in the package, would detonate it. And it did not. It`s standard procedure, according to the FBI, to do that. to make sure that there are no explosive devices...

GRACE: John...

ZARRELLA: ... in packages that you`re checking.

GRACE: John, we originally heard that he muttered something about having a bomb in his bag. Now that is altered slightly. Now we`re hearing he said words to the effect, I have a bomb. Things are starting to morph as the hours pass. To your understanding -- you`re there on the scene -- what did the man say?

ZARRELLA: Well, to our understanding, according to what the federal agents here said, it`s exactly what you said, that he said something to the effect of having a bomb in his backpack. Obviously, Nancy, as you know, I`m sure that right now, that investigation, talking to the agents involved, the air marshals, apparently, more than one of them, still not clear if one or more than one fired the shots, exactly what they heard, obviously, debriefings being conducted, I`m sure, as we speak with those air marshals and with others on the plane.

GRACE: Here`s what the air marshals had to say.


BAUER: We have an investigation under way. There`s no reason to believe right now that there is any nexus to terrorism, or that, indeed, any other events are associated with this one. As a tactical matter, the federal air marshals, as has been reported, did deploy federal air marshals to airports throughout the country in surveillance mode to see if, in fact, other events were unfolding.

GRIFFITH: She said that she heard three gunshots, and then everyone was running -- like, everyone was going crazy. They got up and started running. And she went to go get me because I was in the restroom, and she went in there and she was, like, There`s an emergency. Hurry up and get out.

So then I got out, and we just -- we ran the other way, where everyone was going. And then from there, that`s when everybody was, like, running the other way. The police came and everything. And from what I heard was that they captured the man, but they shot him and that he`s dead.


GRACE: To our former U.S. inspector general, Mary Schiavo. Ms. Schiavo, here`s the deal. If this guy did have bipolar problems, if he was manic-depressive, if he was off his medication, so what? Yes, we may empathize with that, but what is the air marshal supposed to do, get a full shrink down there on the plane, get an assessment before he takes aim and shoots? I mean, what governs our air marshals?

SCHIAVO: Well, the Federal Aviation regulations, federal security laws, federal law govern the air marshals, as federal laws govern every flight, including from the second you come onto the airport property and go through security. It covers all of the air tarmac area. And so they`re governed by federal laws, just like any other federal law enforcement official.

So what they have to have is they have to respond to the situation reasonably. But if they suspect that it is a deadly situation, obviously, like other federal law enforcement officers, they are empowered to protect the lives of others. And as you correctly pointed out, the original story was -- the original report was that he said he had a bomb, and now it`s "something to the effect." I think that`s probably what the inquest will be. Was it reasonable for what they did? Did they properly hear the situation? I`m sure they`re questioning all the passengers. But the standards are federal law enforcement standards, just like other federal law enforcement officers, like the FBI, similar to that.

GRACE: And when she says inquest, everyone, she`s referring to an investigation of sorts into the shooting.

Very quickly, to aviation attorney and former jet pilot Arthur Alan Wolk. Arthur, all carry-on items go through a metal detector, but if this guy says something to the effect of a bomb in his bag, would a metal detector pick up, for instance, a plastic explosive?

ARTHUR ALAN WOLK, AVIATION ATTORNEY, JET PILOT: Well, it certainly wouldn`t pick up a plastic explosive, but even a metal detector wouldn`t necessarily pick up enough. It would depend upon the skill of the screener. One of the problems we have is we have no suitable methodology to determine if any passenger, meaning on a regular basis, is carrying explosives.

To me, if you say you have a bomb, then you have just signed your death warrant. And I don`t think anybody could fairly criticize the air marshals for taking and using deadly force in order to protect the passengers.

GRACE: Well, let me advise you -- Arthur Alan Wolk is not only an aviation attorney but also a former jet pilot. You said no one can fairly criticize the U.S. marshal. Don`t worry about that. There won`t be anything fair about the criticism, all right? Hey, it`s trial 101, everybody! In a court of law, it`s called defense of others. That is a legitimate legal defense, like self-defense. When you are defending a third person, or in this case, about a hundred other third persons on a plane, you have a right to act.

Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back. Joining us out of Miami is John Zarrella, CNN, and WIOD reporter Al Warnell. In addition, the former U.S. inspector general is with us tonight.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Tonight, the second Amber Alert out of Ohio this week alone. Fourteen-year-old Doris Marybell (ph) Cando allegedly kidnapped from her home, Lorraine (ph), Ohio, Tuesday morning. Juan Zumba (ph) suspected tonight. Police believe Zumba driving a red 1998 Fort Escort, Ohio plates EN68WK. If you have info on this girl, Doris Marybell Cando, please call 877-262-3764.


GRACE: Rigoberto Alpizar, a 44-year-old U.S. citizen, gunned down today. He was to be a passenger on American Airlines flight 921 (SIC). Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

Straight back down to CNN correspondent John Zarrella. He`s joining us out of Miami. In the aftermath of all this, what are the other passengers saying, John? We`re hearing reports that some of them say this guy was rushing down the aisle, discussing a bomb, that he was chasing his wife, that his wife, no, she was seated, that she said he was manic- depressive. What are you gathering?

ZARRELLA: All of the above, Nancy. That`s the problem. It`s still all being...

GRACE: No, no, no, John!

ZARRELLA: ... sorted out here.

GRACE: You can`t have all of it. Only one of them.


GRACE: She can`t be in her seat, she can`t be chasing him or being chased. Some of this isn`t true.

ZARRELLA: Right. Exactly. And we`re getting -- of course, again, from the news briefing here a couple of hours ago, they would not get into details of exactly what transpired on the plane, other than the fact that, at some point, while he was on the plane in his seat, that some words to the effect were uttered that he had a bomb and, at that point, they got him off of the plane, the air marshals. And as they were getting him off the plane, as you know, at that point, he was asked to put down his backpack. He did not do that and appeared to make threatening gestures towards the air marshals, at which point, he was shot and killed.

But we, too, have heard exactly the same thing, that he was at one point running up and down the airplane. But none of that came out in the news briefing this afternoon. None of the health or medical issues, mental health issues came out, other than the fact, we do know, apparently, that he was on the plane with his wife at the time of the incident -- Nancy.

GRACE: To Ali Velshi, CNN anchor and correspondent. Ali, earlier Ms. Schiavo mentioned an inquest. Who is going to be looking into these actions?

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is part of the immigration and customs enforcement of the federal government, so this is not just a normal inquest that would be held by a municipality. This is the government investigating it.

And the other thing to note is that with these federal air marshals, they are held to a higher standard on a number of levels because of the complexity of this job. I was just learning that, in fact, they not only do their basic training, but then they go for specialized marksmanship training as part of the second phase of becoming an air marshal because, as you know, you can`t be shooting a gun all over an aircraft, particularly if it might be in the air. So they are held to fairly high standards.

The one good thing about this, if there`s a good thing that comes out of it, Nancy, is that there were witnesses. There were many witnesses, and that inquest will mean interviewing and talking to every one of those passengers who heard anything. It`s just hours after the event, so we have conflicting reports, but we will be getting very clear reports about what happened, whether this passenger did say that he had a bomb, whether or not it was clear that he was on medication, and what, in fact, air marshals are supposed to do about this. This is the first time they`ve had to use lethal force. Is it the right thing? Was it the right thing to do? Those are the questions that the inquest is going to look into.

GRACE: Well, Mike Burch (ph) is with us, security expert. And Ali Velshi is absolutely correct, Mike, on this fact, that the U.S. air marshals apparently have the highest marksmanship scores of all U.S. law enforcement. How are they trained? And what difference does it make if somebody is on or off their medication when an air marshal perceives a threat?

MIKE BURCH, SECURITY EXPERT: Well, they -- you`re right, Nancy. These federal air marshals are very highly trained. They go through their initial training down at the federal law enforcement training center, and then they go up to New Jersey, to near Egg Harbor, where they go through their specialized training and all their marksmanship training. They have actual jets there that they do some of their practical exercises on. And you know, it doesn`t make any difference whether or not this guy was on or off his medication.

Let me just give you also a little bit more insight. I spoke with a law enforcement source close to the investigation there in Miami, Nancy, and what I`m hearing is that this guy was actually sitting in the back of the plane. They were finishing up the boarding process. They were finishing that up. The cockpit door had been closed. They were getting ready to push back, but the door to the aircraft was still open.

And so this guy runs to the front of the plane. He gets to the front, says he has a bomb. Now, the two federal air marshal who are sitting at the front of the plane -- there were two of them -- they stood up, identified themselves as police officers. They go off of the plane. This guy ran out.

And as everyone who flies regularly knows, right outside, there`s, like, a little circle area before you go up the jetway. They confronted him there. They said -- told him to put the backpack down. He ran up the jetway, apparently got up to the top of the jetway, Nancy. The door was closed. He ran back down towards them. They thought that he was a threat because he said he still had -- he said he had a bomb, he was going to blow everyone up. They thought he was going to try to run back on the plane. They used deadly force and dropped him there in the jetway.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think at first, people didn`t realize what was going on because there was just one guy. And then more started coming, and people started yelling that there were guns. And then people freaked out, and they ran out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very scary because, imagine, I was on the flight and it could happen in mid-air. And thank God it didn`t happen.


GRACE: The bitter finger pointing has already started after a passenger is shot on an American Airlines flight, flight 924. According to air marshals, this passenger claimed he had, to the effect, a bomb in his bag.

Very quickly, back to Mary Schiavo, former inspector general for the U.S. Does it matter if this guy was on, off, should have been on, should have been off, didn`t know, anything about his medication? Does it matter?

SCHIAVO: No, it doesn`t. It`s very unfortunate, obviously, for this fellow and his family, but this has happened before. We have had other situations where passengers have failed to take medication or have mixed psychotic medications, bipolar medications with alcohol. In fact, there have been other deaths on planes, in particular, one on a Southwest Airlines flight, where the passengers themselves subdued him, and in the process, suffocated. It makes no difference under the federal air marshal standards, unless they had some reason to know, which they clearly didn`t here. And that will be part of the inquest. Otherwise...


GRACE: Does altitude have an effect?

SCHIAVO: Yes, it does. It`s very important to consult your doctor about that. It does.


RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: I`m Renay San Miguel at the CNN Center. We want to bring you up-to-speed on some of the big stories making news right now.

A serious security scare has ended with deadly results and plenty of shaken airline travelers tonight. A federal air marshal shot and killed a 44-year-old Florida man after he reportedly said he had a bomb in his bag. Coming up on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," are we really any safer with air marshals on board?

And imagine going to a drug store to pick up a prescription and the pharmacist sends you home empty-handed because he doesn`t like the medicine your doctor prescribed. Well, it`s happening more and more over the morning-after pill. So are these pharmacists working within the law or answering to a higher power?

And we all tend to put on a few extra pounds around this time of year, but imagine surrounding yourself with all your favorite foods, chocolate, French fries, the works. Could you lose weight? It`s called the no-diet diet. And we`re going to talk to the man who came up with it. He`s going to tell us his secrets to losing 50 pounds.

That`s on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT" right after NANCY GRACE.


BOBBY PARKER, MIAMI DADE POLICE DIRECTOR: We know enough to know that the airline is secure, the bags are all secure, and there really is no bomb at this point. The investigation will take a while in completing. We will go through every detail and every possible avenue of exploration just to make sure that this situation is exactly an unfortunate incident.


GRACE: Welcome back. The story unfolding regarding a passenger on American Airlines Flight 924 gunned down in the jet port. We are now getting a clear understanding of exactly what happened.

Ali Velshi, it was very jumbled when we first got the reports, but now we understand that he was seated in the back. Passengers were getting on. They were nearly all on. The door opened. He gets up from the back, runs toward the front, mumbles something about a bomb, goes outside, and then comes running back toward the plane.

Now, that behavior in itself is unusual, but, Ali Velshi, it`s clearly stated at the metal detectors you`re not even supposed to say the word "bomb."

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, and, you know, for the air marshals who have to confront this, and you`ve got to completely understand that they`ve got to deal with what they`ve got to deal with.

I think we do have to realize, though, that what do you do, if this man was on medication, or wasn`t on his medication, and had some kind of issue, how do we deal with that? The air marshals have not had to confront this sort of thing before. And as this become a bigger issue, with more people traveling and more dangers, and more threats, and a more nervous public, how do you deal with that?

Because police forces across the country have had to, over the years, deal with the fact that every crime isn`t black and white. It`s not that way. You have to deal with the fact that there are people in society at- large who are not on medication who suffer from bi-polar disorder, who will make threats without knowing the full consequence of what making those threats are.

We had somebody say that, when you threaten that you have a bomb on a plane, you sign a death warrant. Some people believe that to be true. Others say a lot of people fly. Millions of people fly. Some of them will have disorders. Some of them won`t know the consequences of their action. What if you`re mentally retarded? Where do you draw that line? This is going to be a very interesting case to follow.

GRACE: Ali, Ali, Ali, what has gotten into you, man?

VELSHI: I`m just saying, this is new.

GRACE: You`re talking about what goes down in a very complicated criminal defense trial. You think an air marshal -- an air marshal -- has time to figure out...


GRACE: ... all of those defenses you`re coming up with?

VELSHI: They don`t. But that`s why we`re not all air marshals. This is a very high standard that they have to meet. I`m not -- I`m just saying that they have to meet that high standard. This is a tough job, and now it`s going to come under further scrutiny.

And these are the kind of things that will come up in an inquest, and they will come up in the media, and they will come up from critics. It is a very tough job. How would you know when to judge when to pull a gun out, when to shoot, what a threat really is? That has got to be one of the toughest jobs around.

GRACE: And excellent question, Ali. What about it, Mike Brooks? You`re the security expert. What constitutes a legitimate threat that would justify pulling a gun and pulling a trigger by an air marshal?

MIKE BROOKS, SECURITY ANALYST: What you saw today, that constituted deadly force, Nancy. And, also, something else they`re going to be looking into in this inquiry, Nancy, is the term "victim-precipitated homicide," or suicide by cop.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, victim-precipitate -- OK, go ahead.

BROOKS: Victim-precipitated homicide, also known as suicide by cop. Was this guy -- did he want to get killed? That`s one of the other things that they`re going to look at.

If you look at everything that happened and the fact that they told him numerous times to get on the ground, to drop the bag, and he did not. And he was coming back towards the aircraft. They thought that there was imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm to themselves and to those people on board that aircraft. That`s why they used deadly force.

But, as the investigation goes along by the federal air marshals, Miami-Dade police, and the FBI, they`re going to look at, was this guy altered mental status? You know, how was he acting before he got on the plane? Had he talked about suicide before? These are all things -- they`re going to talk to his wife, talk to his psychiatrist, anybody else that knows anything about his mental history. These are questions that need to be asked.

GRACE: To Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney, in the inquest, the inquiry into the shooting today, the shooting by the air marshal, the reality is it`s not the state of mind of the shooting victim. It`s the state of mind of the shooter.


GRACE: Did he accurately perceive a threat? It doesn`t matter to the shooter, the air marshal, whether this guy was on his medication, not on his medication, had a mental illness, what was his intent. It is what was objectively perceived by the air marshal; that`s the standard.

SUSKAUER: That`s right. It is. And these air marshals, with all of their training, should be held to a higher standard, like one of your other guests said, and they should be held to a higher scrutiny, and they will in this case.

But I think, also, there are so many unanswered questions, before making...

GRACE: Well, I don`t think that`s what they said, Michelle.

SUSKAUER: Well, but you know what...

GRACE: They said he`s got a higher duty, because you`re up at 36,000 feet, right?

SUSKAUER: I understand that, but they`re going to be held to a higher scrutiny. They should, because they`re carrying guns. They`re law enforcement. And it isn`t a free-for-all.

There are a lot of questions. And I think that we`re making a lot of assumptions here as to what happened. And we really don`t know. They have a tremendous amount of people to interview. They had a full plane. They have air marshals.

There are some questions. This guy ran to the front of the plane. He still had his backpack? Was there any contact? Why`d they let him keep his backpack? Why couldn`t...


GRACE: Michelle, Michelle, Michelle...

SUSKAUER: Listen...

GRACE: Michelle, do you need all 139 passengers to say he yelled out bomb and for the wife to say he wasn`t on his medication? I mean, where are you going with this?

SUSKAUER: You know what? I`m not saying that they didn`t have a right to detain him and to use force, but also let`s look at whether deadly force was really necessary here.

GRACE: Does the word "September 11" mean anything to you, Suskauer?

SUSKAUER: Oh, come on. OK, so this is someone who does not -- who is an American citizen who does not fall into that terrorist...

GRACE: How is the air marshal supposed to know that? Do want us to judge somebody by whether or not they`ve got blonde hair or blue eyes? I mean, how was he supposed to know this guy is an American citizen?

SUSKAUER: I just think -- I just think that we need to look at this carefully, that let`s not be too jumpy in using deadly force here, because, you know what...

GRACE: Oh, right. You know what?

SUSKAUER: ... they can -- you know what...

GRACE: Next time you`re on a plane, I`m going to remind you of this, right as you ease into your little first-class seat, OK?


GRACE: Ed Sapone, do you want to weigh in? I think I`ve got Ed Sapone with me. Ed?

ED SAPONE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Nancy, can you hear me?

GRACE: Yes, go ahead.

SAPONE: And I want to support my colleague at the bar.

GRACE: OK, enough out of you.

SAPONE: It matters much, Nancy, whether or not the marshal knew that this person was mentally challenged and was off the medication, which his wife said he was.

GRACE: How would he know that, Ed Sapone?

SAPONE: Because his wife was ranting and raving that that was the case.

GRACE: No, no, that was afterwards.

SAPONE: Well, no, because when he got up and started acting up, the wife immediately perceived a potential problem, Nancy, and she wanted them to know this is not...

GRACE: Yes, that her husband was yelling that he had a bomb.

SAPONE: ... a dangerous person; he is ill. Right. And by the way, whether a person is a terrorist, Nancy, or has a bomb, in and of itself, is not enough to shoot.

GRACE: Oh, really?

SAPONE: There has to be imminent harm coming down the pipe.

GRACE: Really? Is that true?

SAPONE: A hundred percent true.

GRACE: Let me throw this to Arthur Alan Wolk...

SAPONE: Go ahead.

GRACE: ... not just an aviation attorney, but a former jet pilot. A guy`s on a plane. Having a bomb isn`t enough to draw a weapon?

WOLK: Oh, I think it is. As a matter of fact, look, we are at war...

GRACE: I`d be mad if he didn`t draw a weapon.

WOLK: We are at war. These air marshals are soldiers in that conflict. They have no idea whether that woman is a conspirator in this effort to blow up that airplane. Their job is to prevent the deaths of themselves and hundreds of other people.

They make their perceptions. They do that job. There will be collateral damage in any war. This man is that collateral damage.

And let me say this -- wait a minute. We would be at a feeding frenzy if, by failing to exercise their instant discretion and using deadly force, resulted in an explosion that killed hundreds of people.

GRACE: Mike Brooks...

WOLK: So we should not deter these men from exercising and performing their trained duties. Otherwise, we`re going to have a planeload of people dead.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, he`s right. He`s right on, because, if this air marshal, if the facts are as Ali Velshi has explained tonight and as John Zarrella has explained them tonight, if these are the facts, and this U.S. air marshal comes under fire, I`m not getting back on a flight. Forget about it. I want those marshals there and armed.

BROOKS: Well, I tell you, Nancy, we heard from the attorneys. You know, you can`t call a time-out in the middle of this and talk to the wife. You know, who knows if they even heard that? We`re talking about a 757 here, Nancy. He was all the way at the front. The air marshals are all the way -- he was all the way in the back. The air marshals are all the way in the front. I seriously doubt if they even knew that this guy hadn`t taken his medication before this happened.

GRACE: And why hadn`t he? That`s a whole other can of worms.

To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, why would you get on a plane under stressful situation for people that don`t fly a lot and don`t take your medication when you know you`re bipolar? And also, Bethany, what effect, if any, does altitude have on medication? We were just discussing that with Mary Schiavo.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Look, I don`t think that altitude has an effect on medication, but it does have an affect on alcohol intake, which you`re not supposed to take alcohol, of course, when you`re taking anti anti-psychotic medication.

But patients that are manic often do not know that they`re manic and they have a decreased sense of danger. They have racing thoughts, hyperirritability and agitation. But manic patients are told not to fly. I tell my manic patients: Do not get on a plane. And I tell their family members to contain them.

GRACE: Why? Why? Why?

MARSHALL: Because they lack judgment. They`re hyperirritable. They have increased goal-directed behavior. They`re delusional often. Sometimes they don`t know who they are and where they are. And often they want to fly and go places, and they`re paranoid, Nancy.

They often get in altercations with authority figures, but often family members -- and I`m not pointing the finger at the wife of this man, by the way -- but family members do let manic patients get on planes, and it`s very unfortunate and it shouldn`t happen. And, at some point, the prevention has to start at the level of the family members of mentally ill patients.

GRACE: Mary Schiavo , before we go to break, I want to ask you, there are new rules, soon to be enforced, where much more liberal applications of what can be taken on an off a plane. What do you make of that? I disagree with it.

SCHIAVO: I disagree with that, but I think that does have a bearing on what happened here. If you`ll recall, when those rules came out last week, the justification was for those rules was to give them more time to look for bombs and explosives which they couldn`t find. And that`s what was on the air marshals` mind. They can`t find the bombs and explosives.



MAYOR RICHARD ROGERS, FENNIMORE, WISCONSIN: He was seated in the first row, the first pew. She was kind of -- had her head in her hands and was crying. And I said, "Is there something wrong?" I could see she was upset and crying. And she said, "No, I`m OK. My husband is going to come and pick me up in about 15 minutes."


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are switching gears and taking you live to Wisconsin in a case we have been covering very, very closely, the disappearance of a 21-year-old, six-month-pregnant mother-to-be, Christine Rudy.

I want to go straight out to Chief Deputy Jim Backus, with the Clark County Sheriff`s Office. Chief, what can you tell us tonight?

CHIEF DEPUTY JIM BACKUS, CLARK COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The new information that we can release here is that, through the investigation, we have found possible human remains. And these items have been transported to the Wisconsin State Crime Lab in Madison, where they will be analyzed to, first of all, determine if they are human and, if so, number two, a possibility identity of them.

GRACE: Chief, where were they found?

BACKUS: This early in this investigation on this portion of it, I really can`t indicate where they were found or when.

GRACE: Everyone, breaking news tonight. What we had suspected, human remains have been found there in Wisconsin around Thorp, Wisconsin. We have all been praying and hoping that we would find Christine Rudy alive and well, six months pregnant.

To Paul Knoff, news director with WCCN-Radio, Paul, I know the sheriff, Chief Deputy Sheriff Jim Backus, has got his hands tied behind his back about releasing information so as not to jeopardize any future trial. What can you tell us, Paul?

PAUL KNOFF, NEWS DIRECTOR, WCCN RADIO: Basically, I was at a law enforcement committee meeting this afternoon. That`s an oversight committee here in the county for the sheriff`s department. At that time, it was stated possibly tonight we might have a release of new information regarding the missing person`s case. I don`t think the sheriff`s department is saying that these remains are not related to this missing person case. They just can`t say for sure yet.

GRACE: Paul, do you have any idea approximately where the remains were found?

KNOFF: They are being very tight-lipped about where the remains were found right now.

GRACE: Well, Paul, we know from our producers there that a portion of the road was blocked off, all right, during the search? What road, what portion was blocked off?

KNOFF: I know, with the entirety of the searches that they`ve been doing, they`ve been blocking off parts of the road, and I can`t really comment. I know earlier in the investigation, you know, we`ve heard many different reports of roads being blocked off around the county. So I`m not exactly sure where.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


BACKUS: It`s our understanding that the conversation began about Christine wanting to spend more time with Shaun. As they progressed on the road, it sounded like the argument became a little more heated. Our understanding it was just verbal. And he had pulled over to the side of the road, and Christine had gotten out.

We don`t know if, you know, she volunteered to get out on her own. Did he physically remove her? We don`t have any evidence to prove either way what had happened. Again, Shaun`s story is that it sounded as if she had volunteered and gotten out of the car.

Our ultimate goal is to, obviously, find Christine alive and be able to speak to her about this whole incident. As the family indicates, it`s very unusual that she hasn`t contacted one of them to indicate any type of problem or, you know, explain why this may have happened. And, with the cold weather, each day we here are more and more concerned about locating her.


GRACE: With us tonight, forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Kobilinsky, can you pretty much look at remains immediately and determine whether they are male or female?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes. Forensic anthropologists can certainly look at skeletal remains. And that`s what I believe they found.

Christine was last seen November 12th. And, given such a lengthy period of time, if she had died around that time, November 12th or 13th, the body would be skeletonized.

The area is very wooded. There is animal life large and small. The likelihood is that there are skeletal remains and, yes, they can be typed for gender by an anthropologist.

GRACE: In this cold weather, you still believe they would be skeletonized?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Of course, the cold weather will retard decomposition...

GRACE: OK. And what about -- can you tell if she was pregnant?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the uterus is a muscular structure. And it would go slow -- it would decompose more slowly than soft tissue. So it depends on the amount of decomposition. If she`s skeletonized, there will be no indication of her pregnancy.

GRACE: Very quickly, everyone, we`ll all be right back with the latest on Christine Rudy.

To tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Juan Carlos Mayorga, wanted in connection with the 2002 murder of 28-year-old Jacob Mendez Torres (ph).

Mayorga, late 20s, 5`6", 150 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Juan Carlos Mayorga, call the FBI, 404-679-9000.

Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. And remember, coverage of the drunken pilot case, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us tonight as we remember Lance Corporal Adam Kaiser, just 19 -- 19 -- an American hero.



GRACE: And now to "Trial Tracking." Saddam Hussein trial delayed for hours today after Hussein himself refuses to appear in court. Chief complaint? Wah-wah. He wore the same clothes for days and said, "I will not be in court without justice. Go to hell, all you agents of America." Saddam, I`ll see you there.

After proceedings continued, grisly details of mistreatment were heard by the court.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Breaking news out of Wisconsin. Human remains found. Are they those of 21-year-old Christine Rudy.

Very quickly, back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, regarding whether these are male or female remains, how long will it take to find that out and whether they are Christine`s?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it`s very -- the analysis of whether it`s male or female is very rapid. An anthropologist can tell very quickly by examining the pelvic bones.

As far as the identity, an odontologist, a forensic dentist, can examine the teeth, look at x-rays, and determine if it`s her or not. If that fails, DNA will give us the answer.

GRACE: Time. Time. Time. How many days, Doctor?

KOBILINSKY: It`s a matter of a day to two to three days.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly, Paul Knoff, WCCN Radio, why was her husband in court today?

KNOFF: Shaun Rudy was in court on those unrelated charges. But what`s interested is they amended the criminal complaint now. I might have said before that the firearms charge against him, this charge of possession of a firearm by a felon, seems scant. It doesn`t anymore.

They`ve got a woman that interestingly asked to talk to investigators on an unrelated case, but she told investigators that she saw Shaun apparently sell a firearm to the passenger that was in the car the night that he was arrested. And these two men also handled three long guns that were in a storage facility near Thorp.

GRACE: Chief Deputy Jim Backus, I want to thank you especially for being with us and your update tonight. Good luck, sir.

BACKUS: Thank you very much.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests. But our biggest thank you tonight, as always, is to you for inviting all of us and our legal stories into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.