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Wisconsin police announce the discovery of the remains of 21-year- old Christine Rudy, six months pregnant, who was reported missing by her husband on November 14.
Aired December 16, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. She went missing at six months pregnant in 2 degrees below zero. The search for Christine Rudy, last seen on a Wisconsin roadside, ends tonight.
Plus, just in. Prosecutors announce they will seek the death penalty against an 18-year-old Pennsylvania man, David Ludwig, for the shooting death of both the mother and father of his 14-year-old girlfriend, Kara Borden. And tonight, Ludwig also charged with another felony stemming from his relationship with the 14-year-old girl, statutory rape.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Hollywood record producer Phil Spector revolutionized the music world, creating hits for names like John Lennon, the Beatles, Cher, Ike and Tina Turner, The Righteous Brothers. But then an actress, Lanna Clarkson (ph), was found in a pool of blood in Spector`s California mansion.
Tonight, also, breaking news out of a Pennsylvania courtroom. Prosecutors announce they will seek the death penalty against 18-year-old David Ludwig, Ludwig accused of killing both of his 14-year-old girlfriend`s parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police have interviewed a number of witnesses, and they have determined that additional charges are warranted and have been warranted against David Ludwig. They include statutory sexual assault and firearms not to be carried without a license.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But first tonight, breaking news. Remains found in Wisconsin now confirmed to be the missing 21-year-old mother-to-be Christine Rudy. Let`s go straight out to WCCN radio reporter Paul Knoff. Paul, distressing news. Bring us up to date.
PAUL KNOFF, WCCN RADIO: Unfortunately, Nancy, that`s correct, very distressing news, but I have to say, not entirely unexpected. The sheriff`s department this afternoon released information that analysts from the Wisconsin Department of Justice crime lab have, in fact, positively identified human remains found in the search for Christine Rudy as those of Christine Rudy, the 21-year-old from Thorp. They have also mentioned now that they have switched this from a missing persons investigation to a criminal investigation, and interviews are ongoing. The last interview in this case took place just this morning -- or today, I should say.
GRACE: Paul Knoff, where did you say the remains were positively identified as Christine Rudy`s?
KNOFF: The analysts at the Wisconsin Department of Justice crime lab in Madison actually positively ID`d the remains.
GRACE: Let`s go to Chief Deputy Jim Backus. He is the deputy with the Clark County sheriff`s office. Deputy Sheriff, thank you for being with us. This is a grim evening for us, as well as for you. We`ve tried desperately to try to find clues to find the missing girl. Where did you find the remains?
DEPUTY CHIEF JIM BACKUS, CLARK COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, we`re unable to indicate exactly where we found them. They were located during one of the numerous searches that we did conduct, and as indicated last week, they were sent down to the Department of Justice crime lab in Madison.
GRACE: What day did you find the remains?
BACKUS: It was earlier in the week, last week. Again, I cannot indicate exactly on the date.
GRACE: Deputy, why can`t you tell us where you found the remains? Shouldn`t that be public record?
BACKUS: Well, it will be. And as of this time, we have numerous people that need to be interviewed yet, and we don`t want to get a whole lot of information out there until our interviews are complete.
GRACE: OK. I get it. Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition," as of yet, they still have not named someone as an official murder suspect in this case.
I`m assuming, Sheriff Backus, you do think this is foul play, correct?
BACKUS: Yes, at this time, we do feel that foul play may have been a part of Christine`s death.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY FOLEY, CHURCH FRIEND OF CHRISTINE RUDY: I first saw Christine on the morning of November 11, when she was in church during the mass. She said that her husband had dumped her off in the woods and that she had to walk up hills and down hills and across ravines and that it was very cold and very dark by the time she arrived in Fennimore.
The last I had talked to her, she was supposed to meet him at the (INAUDIBLE) at 3:30 and he was going to pick her up there, that he did not want to meet her at church. So the last I talked to her was probably about 20 minutes to 4:00. And before she left, I told her -- I said, I think you look like you need a hug. So I gave her a hug and told her to have a safe trip. And I also said I would send one of my guardian angels with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to you, Chief Deputy Jim Backus -- again, special guest joining us tonight. Breaking news tonight out of Wisconsin. We have all been following the case of missing 21-year-old mother-to-be Christine Rudy, the entire state on a search for this girl. One of the biggest manhunts in Wisconsin history ends tonight with the positive identification of female remains of this girl, Christine Rudy, six months pregnant.
Chief Deputy Backus, could you tell me why you think this is homicide?
BACKUS: Well, again, there`s a lot of information that we know that we cannot release yet at this time. You know, I guess just all the circumstances and information that we`ve been gathering are, you know, tending us to believe that there may be foul play. And again, there are numerous interviews that we have to complete yet before this is...
GRACE: Can you tell us at least was she found in a wooded area?
BACKUS: Again, I can`t expand a whole lot on that.
GRACE: OK. I understand you don`t want to jeopardize the investigation. Chief Deputy Backus, where are her remains now?
BACKUS: At this time, they`re still in Madison, you know, as we just recently received the confirmation on the identification.
GRACE: Are they at the medical examiner`s or a crime lab?
BACKUS: I believe that they are at the crime lab yet.
GRACE: At the crime lab. So they haven`t even gone to the medical examiner, correct?
GRACE: So as of this juncture, all we have is a positive identification -- be it through dental records, DNA, I don`t know -- but we don`t have a cause of death, right?
GRACE: You`re not going to get that until you send her to the medical examiner, correct?
GRACE: What medical examiner will her remains go to?
BACKUS: I honestly don`t know which one they will be sent to yet.
GRACE: Well, how many do you have?
BACKUS: I`m not sure which one the crime labs works with down in Madison.
GRACE: Well, what`s the closest medical examiner?
BACKUS: I believe there is one right in Madison that the Department of Justice works with.
GRACE: So is there any reason that`s not the medical examiner she`ll go to?
BACKUS: I would not believe so. It probably would be.
GRACE: Chief Deputy Backus is with us out of Clark County sheriff`s office. He`s giving us a little information tonight, everyone, but not enough to jeopardize this investigation.
To Jim Moret, chief correspondent, "Inside Edition." It`s very clear -- Jim, you`re a practicing lawyer, as well as chief correspondent with "Inside. Clearly, they haven`t named an official suspect, so what this is all about, they`re going to question various people that may be involved and see if any of them are placing themselves near where her body was found, or if their story is off in any way as it relates to the location of this body.
MORET: Well, we`re also being told, Nancy, that there are persons -- that`s plural -- persons of interest that have been detained and are being questioned.
And as far as the cause of death, all we`re being told, even though there`s no specific cause of death -- that we`ve been told, and as you`ve just heard, the medical examiner doesn`t yet have the body. What we are being told, however, is the cause of death is not a natural cause of death. That`s all we`re being told so far.
GRACE: I want to go out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, high-profile criminal profiler. Just now, when I heard the lady from the local church, something struck in me that she said. Remember, the husband told everybody -- this isn`t a big secret -- husband not a suspect -- said they got into a spat and she wanted to get out of the car, so he let her get out of the car to cool down and then went back to get her.
OK. Right there, that`s not what the church lady said. The church lady, who has no reason to lie in this case that I can think of -- she doesn`t have any skin in the game -- says he dumped her off. He dumped her off, not that she asked to get out of the car, but he dumped her out in the woods, Pat.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, we know one thing. We know he`s a liar. We know, too, that he`s not a good husband. This poor girl didn`t need a hug, she needed a divorce really quick. But unfortunately, she stayed with him. And at this point, his best defense is that he is a lousy husband because unless they find some physical...
GRACE: Whoa! The Scott Peterson defense!
BROWN: Yes!~ Because if they don`t find physical evidence linking Christine`s body to either him, his car, or something to do with him or to somebody else, if there`s no physical evidence, what have you got? A bad husband that said, Get out of my car.
GRACE: I want to go back to Chief Deputy Jim Backus. Chief, could you just tell us whether she was actually wearing the same clothes her husband described she was wearing last?
BACKUS: Again, that information I cannot disclose as of this time.
GRACE: Chief, Chief, Chief, you already told us what she was last wearing. Is that what she was wearing when her body was found?
BACKUS: I can`t disclose that information.
GRACE: Chief! gee, I wish I could have had you on some of my homicide cases. Man, you`re like a vault! You`re a vault! I can`t get anything out of you.
To Paul Knoff, reporter with WCCN radio. Paul, what was Christine Rudy allegedly wearing at the time she was let out of the car by her husband? What did he say?
KNOFF: I think, if recall correctly, he described it as a light gray jacket, which happens to match the description of what the mayor of Fennimore told me she was wearing at the church in Fennimore the day before she went missing.
GRACE: Could you repeat again? She had on what?
KNOFF: Just a list -- I believe a gray jacket is how it was described.
GRACE: A gray -- like a hoody?
KNOFF: If I remember correctly. And I want to -- I do remember that it was a light jacket. I think it was gray.
GRACE: Gray jacket, tennis shoes, and jeans, as I recall it.
GRACE: OK. Chief Backus, so you`re not confirming or denying that`s what she had on at the time?
BACKUS: Correct. I cannot indicate exactly what...
GRACE: OK. I understand. And actually, I applaud you for not jeopardizing the investigation.
Everyone, breaking news tonight. Here on the show, we`ve been following this case from the beginning, early November, when Christine Rudy went missing, hoping for the best, six months pregnant, in low, low temperatures there in Wisconsin.
Paul Knoff, WCCN radio, I want to get this straight. The day that she was seen at the church, she also had on a gray jacket, tennis shoes and jeans? Paul? OK, I`ve lost Paul Knoff.
Let me go to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, who has also been covering the case. Pat, what do you make of the fact that the day she was let off at the church, which was several days before her husband says she went missing, OK, she was wearing the same exact thing, according to the church lady, that she was wearing when her husband said he dropped her off? What it says to me is she may have been killed that day.
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Very possible. I mean, look, the first time, maybe it was a dry run, and maybe he made the whole other story up. I mean, there`s so much mystery in this. There was also allegedly another female in the car the first time around. This is a man who also told police, I understand, that he had to get her out of the car before things got physical.
Now, what kind of a guy is this? This is also a guy who`s in trouble now for weapons charges, for methamphetamine pipes in his car. You know, I think the whole thing, the whole second story, could be a complete, complete fabrication. We don`t know. As your other guest said, he seems to be a compulsive liar, as well as maybe a sociopath.
GRACE: I want to go straight back to WCCN reporter Paul Knoff. I think I`ve got him back. Elizabeth (ph), do I have Paul? Hey, Paul, welcome back. Paul, didn`t the church people say she had on that gray jacket, the jeans, the tennis shoes the day she was at the church?
KNOFF: Yes, that`s correct. Basically, as I remember the reporting of the description that the mayor of Fennimore told me that, you know, she was wearing at that time pretty much matched what the sheriff`s department said she was wearing at the time of her disappearance.
GRACE: You know, Pat Brown, remember how this came up in the Laci Peterson case? It all came up regarding her clothing, that Peterson said she had on black pants and a white top when she went walking the dog, but yet, when her remains washed up in the San Francisco Bay, she had on the same clothes that she had on the last time she was seen with Peterson, the day before? Are you seeing the same thing happening here?
BROWN: It`s really hard to say. You know, sometimes people just don`t have that many clothes, so they tend to wear the same things, put the same jacket on. I really wouldn`t want to jump to a conclusion on that one particularly. But it`ll be interesting to see what time did elapse and what other stories we`re going to hear from that particular point in time to this particular point in time.
GRACE: We`ll be back with all of our guests in just one moment.
Breaking news tonight. I`m sorry to report that remains found recently in Wisconsin are, in fact, those of this girl. Intense manhunt for 21-year-old Christine Rudy, six months pregnant.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Help us bring missing people home for the holidays. Twenty-four-year-old Jason Jolkowski disappeared after leaving his Omaha, Nebraska, home on his way to work, June, 2001. Take a look at him. Talk about scrubbed (ph) in sunshine! Jason wearing a blue Cubs hat, black pants, a T-shirt. If you have info on Jason Jolkowski, please call Omaha police, 402-444-5600.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR RICHARD ROGERS, FENNIMORE, WISCONSIN: I saw a young lady seated in the front pew, and she was bent over, had her head in her hands. It was obvious that she had been crying. But I went up and set up for mass. When I was leaving church, I bent down and asked her if there was something I could do and if, you know, she needed some help. And she said, No, my husband is going to pick me up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He`s talking about Christine Rudy, a 21-year-old woman that went missing in Wisconsin. Tonight, breaking news. The remains found in a wooded area in Wisconsin are those of Christine Rudy.
Very quickly, I want to go out to Caryn Stark, psychologist. Caryn, when you`re hearing this story that the husband gave -- who I would like to repeat is not an official suspect in this case -- it sounds like he`s blurring together several days and several stories to me.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It does, Nancy. It also stands like he`s not someone who`s a very reputable character. So we really have to take a look at who this man is. And I know that he`s not a suspect, but it does seem quite suspicious.
GRACE: A couple of days before she went missing for good -- remember, she went missing on November 12, she was not reported missing until November 14. Right there should raise a red flag to local prosecutors as to what the delay was. She first was found in a church with her head in her hands a few days before she went missing. One of the parishioners that spoke to her was the local mayor. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGERS: What is the problem? Is there something wrong? And then she told me that she had gotten out of the car. She was with her husband. She got out of the car. She said, I took this hat and I took a small flashlight. And she said, I got out of the car and I started to walk. And she said, I walked, you know, up and down the hills. She said one time she almost walked off a cliff. And then she walked into town and found her way to church.
She indicated that she was very cold. And at that time, the early morning, I think the weather was around 20 to 22, so -- and she had on a very light coat, and she did have a light, real loose-fitting kind of stocking cap, but no gloves. And then she had the regular tennis shoes on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell. Renee, don`t tell me you would launch, the "He`s just a bad husband, he`s not a killer" defense.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I wouldn`t, Nancy. But obviously, this mayor sounds like that he got a story from her that she got out of the car willingly and voluntarily. Nancy, but why would he let her out somewhere where she has to walk eight miles to get to safety?
We`ve got another situation where -- I know he`s not a suspect, but he`s in jail now. He does have a $1,000 bond on some charges. He`s got a probation hold. I can bet you anything he`s not getting out of jail and not for a while, not with a probation hold. They`ll be able to leave him in there long enough for him to continue to talk and to continue to paint himself in a corner. Somebody needs to get a hold of him and tell him to shut up and quick talking.
GRACE: Well, Lisa Wayne, why not have him cooperate with the police fully, offer to take a polygraph and get to the bottom of the mystery of what happened to his wife, Lisa?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, he may have cooperated with the police. He may have told them everything that he knows. I mean, we have a lot of missing pieces here, and the fact that we don`t know the cause of death, we don`t have any scientific or forensic evidence at this point -- he`s the usual suspect. He`s the easiest one to point the finger at and say, yes, he`s a lousy husband.
But we don`t know what was going on in that marriage. We don`t know if she was intentionally avoiding him and not wanting to be found by him. We just don`t know. And frankly, nobody at the church felt concerned enough about her to call the police and tell anybody that something was awry in terms of the marriage. So we need to...
GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding, Lisa, they asked did she need help.
GRACE: And she told them no.
WAYNE: Right. But you know, again there was nothing so amiss...
GRACE: That`s true.
WAYNE: ... that they said, I`m going to call the police because this sounds bad.
GRACE: Everybody, quick break. To tonight`s "Case Alert." Take a look at 18-year-old Joanna Rogers, missing, Lubbock, Texas, since May 2004. It is now over a year. What a smile. If you have info on this girl, Joanna Rogers, please call Lubbock County sheriff, 806-775-1601.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BACKUS: It`s my understanding that the conversation began about Christine wanting to spend more time with Shaun. As they progressed on the road, it sounded like the argument became a little more heated. Our understanding it was just verbal. And he had pulled over to the side of the road, and Christine had gotten out. So we don`t know if, you know, she volunteered to get out on her own. Did he physically remove her? We don`t have any evidence to prove either way what happened. Again, Shaun`s story is that it sounded as if she volunteered to get out of the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I just hate it. The remains found there in Wisconsin have been positively identified as 21-year-old Christine Rudy, an expectant mother six months along. That was a shot of Chief Deputy Jim Backus, Clark County sheriff.
Chief, very quickly, could you tell us, was the body intact?
BACKUS: Again, that information I can`t release.
GRACE: Was the body clothed?
BACKUS: That information I cannot release also.
GRACE: Sheriff, what led you to the remains?
BACKUS: Just the searches that the investigators were involved in.
GRACE: What condition were the remains in?
BACKUS: That information I can`t release due to the ongoing...
GRACE: OK. Can you tell me this. Have you executed any further search warrants since you found the remains?
BACKUS: At this time, there have been no other search warrants executed.
GRACE: Have you found any potential evidence?
BACKUS: Throughout the investigation, yes, we have.
BACKUS: That I cannot release.
GRACE: Everybody, Chief Deputy Jim Backus, Clark County sheriff, is not being difficult tonight, he`s protecting the investigation. His search has been exhaustive, trying to find 21-year-old Christine Rudy. Sheriff, thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TOTARO, LANCASTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: There is a witness who has been identified who, at the same time that this shooting or the shootings occurred, was driving on a road behind the Borden residence. That individual saw a young female, approximately 14 years of age, running from the backyard area of the Borden residence across (INAUDIBLE) Road. That witness described her -- and the female was alone -- described her as very scared, and it appeared as if she had just seen a ghost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.
We are now switching gears and taking you live to Pennsylvania and the latest in the case of David Ludwig. I know you remember him, the 18-year- old young man accused of gunning down his 14-year-old girlfriend`s mother and father.
Remember, the mom was allegedly just sitting there in a chair with a blanket over her legs when she took a bullet to the head? Yes. Why? Because apparently the parents didn`t approve of him keeping their 14-year- old girl out overnight. Yes, he brought her home about 5:00 a.m.
Stunning developments in that case. Let`s go straight out to Brett Lovelace. He`s a reporter with the "Lancaster Intelligencer-Journal." Brett, tell me about the developments.
BRETT LOVELACE, REPORTER, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER-JOURNAL": Nancy, several major developments happened today. The biggest one, Kara has been exonerated of any wrongdoing in this case. The D.A. has said she will not be charged.
GRACE: That`s a huge development, but I think it`s stunning that they have decided to seek the death penalty against 18-year-old David Ludwig.
LOVELACE: They have filed to seek the death penalty against him. That`s correct, Nancy. And they outlined three reasons for doing that. They are saying the fact that two people were killed in these murders, that a felony was committed while the murders were being carried out, are two of the main reasons, as far as aggravating circumstances.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOTARO: Kara Borden was caught returning to her home in the early morning hours. She was instructed by her parents to call David Ludwig and have him report to their home. He did show up at their home, armed with a firearm and a knife. Mr. Borden asked him to leave those weapons outside and he did.
David Ludwig then entered the house and, for approximately 45 minutes, there was a conversation with the family that was very clear, made very clear, to Mr. Ludwig that he was to have no further contact with Kara Borden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Brett Lovelace, reporter with the "Lancaster Intelligencer-Journal," what are the aggravating circumstances?
LOVELACE: The aggravating circumstances are that he put others in harm, not only the Bordens who he shot, but he put the Borden children who were in the house, as well, in harm`s way. He also -- the fact that two people were killed in this shootings was also an aggravating circumstance. And the fact that a felony was committed, the felony being him having illegal possession of these guns, which he was not licensed to have.
GRACE: You mean felony murder? Exactly.
To Renee Rockwell, felony murder, when a death occurs during the commission of a felony. Renee, explain for us aggravating circumstances that lead to a death penalty case.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you can`t just have a vanilla murder, if you will. You have to have something else to seek the death penalty.
In this situation, there were two people that were killed. He`s alleging that`s an aggravated circumstance. He`s also alleging -- the prosecutor I`m talking about -- is alleging that the children were placed in danger, that being the other younger children. And finally, the fact that...
GRACE: I guess so. They ran screaming out of the house to call 911.
ROCKWELL: And finally, the fact...
GRACE: Father shot in the back of the head.
ROCKWELL: And the mother, too, Nancy. They were both shot in the head. But here`s the thing, Nancy: You`ve got a kid that is still talking. He made a statement. His statement has essentially exonerated her, saying that, number one, she had no role in this.
GRACE: Well, what does that have to do with him? And why are you calling him a kid? At 18 years old, my father was on a military ship on the other side of the world fighting for the country. So don`t start with me, him being a kid.
ROCKWELL: OK. But, Nancy, here is the problem that I`m having with the whole scenario. You`ve got an 18-year-old that is still talking. He`s exonerating her. You`ve got a lawyer that, it`s my understanding, they`ve even waived the preliminary hearing. The charges have gone to the county.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Never mind.
ROCKWELL: Maybe there`s never going to be a trial, there`s not going to be a trial. It`s just going to be a sentencing phase.
GRACE: So, Renee, thank you. My question was, death penalty, as it relates to Ludwig, what are the aggravating circumstances?
I want to go now to NYU Professor Robert Blecker. He is a death penalty expert. I take it, sir, you are opposed to the death penalty in this case?
ROBERT BLECKER, DEATH PENALTY EXPERT: I think it`s a very close call. I think he should be death eligible, so I think it`s a reasonable call for the prosecutors to move forward with it. But, from what I know, if I were a juror, I wouldn`t give it.
The killing of two, of course, makes it worse. The felony is makeweight. If he had been armed with a knife and stabbed them to death, then are you telling me that that would be a less aggravated killing? Of course not.
And endangering the children, it seems to me, you dismiss as obvious. Well, depends upon whether they were in the crossfire. He was a hunter. He knew how to shoot. He proved it by whom he killed. And if the kids were in the corner and nowhere near where the guns was fired, that`s not a legitimate aggravator.
So the whole thing is the killing of the two, which is significant. But then there`s the emotional disturbance that he was under, having had a relationship just caught off that he was involved in.
Look, I`m not apologist for him, and I am a death penalty supporter, but this is not clearly the worst of the worst. It`s arguably the worst of the worst, but not clearly the worst of the worst.
GRACE: Professor Blecker, I respect you. I`ve read your works. And I agree with you that the other two aggravating circumstances -- everybody, murders happen every day, but the death penalty is very rarely sought in our society. There must be statutory, in other words, according to the law, aggravating circumstances met that warrant the death penalty.
And in this case, they named three: multiple murders, others at risk, murder during commission of a felony, that felony being carrying a weapon. I agree with Professor Blecker. Felony with a weapon on you? Throw away. Other people in danger? Throw away. But multiple murder, Professor Blecker? That doesn`t -- you don`t think that qualifies?
BLECKER: Yes, I think that makes him death-eligible. But remember, these are the two parents who just said -- I`m not justifying this. I mean, this is terrible. It`s murder. It`s intentional murder. And he deserves to go to prison at least for the rest of his life, and maybe even get death.
But my instinct is that this was done emotionally. It was not planned, apparently. It was done spur of the moment. He is 18, which makes him fully responsible. In my view, even 16-year-olds can be, in extraordinary circumstances, fully responsible, although, as we know, the Supreme Court has said not.
Yes, two killings do make it worse than one. But this is not so clearly the worst of the worst. I don`t blame the prosecutors for going forward. But if I`m sitting on the jury with what I know, I vote life.
GRACE: Well, another issue in this one -- and I want to go to Liza Balanteen (ph). She is a member of board of directors regarding gun violence. Her father, also, a victim of gun violence.
Welcome to the show. Very quickly, we know that when this guy`s home was searched there were 54 weapons. Is it Liza or Leeza?
BALANTEEN (ph): It`s Liza, thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Liza, not only were there 50 -- there you go. Thanks, Elizabeth. Wait, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, slow that down. You`ve got Rugers, Winchesters, you have collapsible -- what do you say, Elizabeth -- collapsible mounts for automatic weapons. I can`t even keep up with that.
You know, there were so many guns, machine guns, Glocks, silencers, you name it. Now I find out, when the police came to search the place -- there you go, thanks, in slow-mo -- the people had a bunker, a bunker.
Now, they forgot to mention that to the police. When police finally found out, they go, "Oh, yes, that was left over from the threat at Y2K," you know, when it turned year 2000, they perceived that as a threat?
Liza, do you think if these parents hadn`t made it, like, so easily available, like popping some microwave popcorn, go grab a Ruger, that this would have even happened?
BALANTEEN (ph): No, I don`t think so. I think that`s one of the largest problems we`re facing is that the access is too great and these guns are falling into the hands of criminals and children. And clearly, they`re not authorized, they`re not licensed to use them. It`s egregious.
Fifty weapons. The family had a hunting lodge elsewhere. If all of those weapons were intended to use for hunting, then they should have been located at that location. They should have been locked up appropriately. The ammunition should have been separate.
GRACE: But, Liza, what do you -- what`s your response to the Second Amendment argument regarding right to bear arms?
BALANTEEN (ph): Well, right to bear arms is a funny piece of information. The...
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It`s not a piece of information, Lisa Wayne. It`s a constitutional right to bear arms. Now, I don`t know if the founding fathers intended you to have machine guns, and collapsible mounts, and weapons lying around for your teens to get a hold of them...
BALANTEEN (ph): Right. But they absolutely did not intend for civilians to be able to possess those kinds of weapons. It was really -- I think the first part of that, the Second Amendment, says that a well- regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. It says absolutely nothing about the rights of an individual.
GRACE: I think Ms. Balanteen needs a stint in law school. I think she`s outtalking you, Lisa Wayne. You want to jump in?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t disagree with her. I mean, I think at the time that the Constitution was, you know, was a very different time, Nancy. And it doesn`t mean that you don`t have the right to bear arms or live in a state where we believe in that, in Colorado. But the problem is, is that it`s lax and access with 18-year-olds and the violence in our society, it`s a very different world than what our forefathers thought.
GRACE: We`ll all be right back on this case, before we take you out to California and the Phil Spector murder trial.
As you know, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 40-year-old Pamela Pedro, dropped off at school, Atwater, California, September `82, never seen again. This is the last photo of her.
If you have info on Pamela Pedro, call Carole Sund Carrington, toll- free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOTARO: There is no evidence at this point in time from our investigation to support a criminal charge against Kara Borden. And consequently, she will not be charged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Stunning developments today in the case of David Ludwig, the 18-year-old man now accused in the murders of his 14- year-old girlfriend`s mother and father.
To NYU Professor Robert Blecker, Professor Blecker, this guy`s birthday was only about six months before the shooting. Under other circumstances, after Roper v. Simmons, the U.S. Supreme Court decision, March 1, `05, he may not have had to face the death penalty, if his birthday had been six months later or this shooting had been six months earlier.
BLECKER: Yes, that`s right. The Supreme Court in March drew a categorical rule, a bright-line rule, which I think was fundamentally wrong and immoral. They said that nobody less than 18 years old could ever be held capitally liable.
And there`s somebody named Mark Anthony Duke who was on Alabama`s death row. And there`s a good example to contrast that case with this case. He was not allowed to borrow the family car so he decided to have his father killed.
GRACE: Oh, good lord.
BLECKER: And he not only killed his father, he killed his father`s girlfriend and he killed the two children, the 6-year-old and the 7-year- old. And then he carefully covered it up, went to the movies, kept the ticket stub to maintain his alibi. There`s an example.
BLECKER: But when you draw a bright-line test, the problem is that, with law, like life -- I mean, life is a continuum. Things are all a matter of degree. And yet you have to impose discreet grids on continuous situations.
And when you do that, you have to tolerate the fact that two instances that fall just on either side of a line are going to be treated very differently, and yet they are virtually identical. If you can`t tolerate that, you can`t tolerate law.
But you`re quite right; had he been six months younger, he would have been categorically exempted by the United States Supreme Court. And that`s wrong.
GRACE: Professor Robert Blecker from NYU, thank you. The rest of our panel staying along.
Switching gears, out to California. Take a listen to this.
Uh-oh. We`ll get that in just a moment. I`m taking you out to the Phil Spector murder trial. Elizabeth, let me know when you get that sound.
Straight out to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Jim, Spector, one, when is he going to trial, two, is that his hair?
Ow! Ow! Elizabeth, take that down right now. It`s abomination.
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes, that`s his hair, or allegedly his hair. I don`t know. I mean, yes, he`s going to trial in April. He`s changed attorneys. He`s facing a first-degree murder charge.
Basically, he`s charged with killing a woman that he met in February 2003, a woman who was an actress at one time and then, more recently, a hostess at the House of Blues. He brought her back to his home. And just before the early morning hours, 5:00 in the morning or so, we hear reports that she was shot. Initially, he tells reports to the police, "It was an accident. I didn`t mean to shoot her." Later, he changes his story that she committed suicide.
Caryn Stark, on a first date, you go over to your date`s house and blow your brains out in the entrance hall?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, that makes no sense. It makes no sense. When you think about women as well, women don`t usually kill themselves. They`re not impulsive. They may threaten to kill themselves, but they don`t do anything violent like that, shooting a gun. That`s not the norm.
So not only does she not know him, but the idea that she would go there and then all of a sudden decide that she`s going to sing some of the songs that he wrote...
GRACE: It`s ridiculous.
STARK: ... and kill herself makes no sense.
GRACE: And to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, not only do we have those statements to police, which I could see in California getting suppressed, but there is no attorney-limo driver privilege, like attorney- client privilege, unless maybe they have it out in California. But, long story short, didn`t he say to his limo driver, "Ruh-roh, I think I shot her"?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: The driver is going to be key in all of this. And, boy, I`m telling you, I`ve tried to find him for so long. He is so in hiding.
But he did tell cops that, as he was sitting in the car, where he was sitting -- he never came into Phil Spector`s gothic mansion -- he sat outside. And Phil Spector came out and looked at him and said something to the effect of, "Oh, I think I accidentally shot someone," then later recanted.
GRACE: In the head.
LALAMA: Right. And later recanted and said, "She did shoot herself in the mouth, and I don`t know why. She just" -- I think his exact quote was, "She kissed the gun, and then, you know, blew herself away."
GRACE: Right. OK, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, do your thing.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it could be like the Rodney Dangerfield joke, where he`s going out with a woman, having a romantic encounter, and he says, "Will you hate yourself in the morning?" And she says, "I hate myself now."
I think this is Spector`s kind of defense here, you know? He had one date with her, and she just couldn`t stand him, so she did herself in. It`s ludicrous. And, listen, it`s going to be just one of those kind of amusing trials, in a way, because we all know what he did. He said he did it. And it`s just going to be a matter of almost a kind of just a three- ring circus, I think.
GRACE: Jim Moret, 10 seconds left before break. When are we going to trial?
MORET: Going to trial in April. And Spector has a long history of having problems, emotional problems, taking a lot of medication. You may see that coming out in the testimony.
GRACE: Oh, yes, we`ll be seeing it. And Jim Moret, Pat Lalama will be there.
Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI, law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Adam Mark Zachs, wanted in connection with the `87 murder of Peter Carrone (ph), just 29.
Zachs, 45, 5`4", 130 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have info on Adam Mark Zachs, call the FBI, 203-777-6311.
Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. And remember, coverage of the manslaughter and assisted suicide trial 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, court TV.
Please stay with us tonight as we remember Specialist Peter J. Navarro, just 20 years old -- he was barely out of high school -- an American hero.
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.
GRACE: We learned just before air that a body found is in fact that of 12-year-old Teke Buggs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family members identified her by the clothing and by jewelry that she was also wearing. They are saying that there was obvious signs of trauma when they found her body
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very sad day, you know, for the family, for the whole community.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother`s boyfriend is a suspect.
GRACE: Catholic schoolteacher Beth Geisel, who pled guilty to molesting a student, walks out of jail after just four months.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge did try to say that she was a victim herself of the boys.
GRACE: You know, I always thought Lady Justice wore a blindfold. Why is it, when a man rapes a little girl, he goes to jail, which I`m all for, by the way, but when a woman rapes a boy, she had a breakdown?
We want answers in the death and disappearance of a Houston doctor and mother of a 2-year-old boy, Dr. Melinda Superville. Was the discovery of her body staged to look like a suicide?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s my world. And I`ve asked everybody I can. What do you do? And nobody has any answers.
GRACE: Help us find 10-year-old Alejandra Gutierrez, missing nearly a week now, last seen, Fort Wayne, Indiana, on her way to a school bus stop. Didn`t the school notice a fifth grade girl was missing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was last seen by her mother at 9:50 a.m. She was going to take the bus. She never made it to school. And, up until this point, there`s no leads, no clues on the whereabouts of little Alejandra Gutierrez.
GRACE: How many of you have sent your kids to the bus stop for school? Her family never saw her again. Her family having a very difficult time communicating tonight to try to find her. Can you help us?
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight and this week, but our biggest thank you here is to you, for being with us, inviting us into your home.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world. And a special goodnight tonight from the control room in New York. Good night, everybody, night, Liz, night, Chris.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.