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Vermont Judge Resentences Child Molester to 3 Years
Aired January 26, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: It`s judgment day. The Vermont judge who let a child molester walk free, no hard jail time, is on the hot seat himself, doing a 180 in court today, Judge Edward Cashman upping the sentence to three years. But is that enough? And what happens when we`re not watching the man on the bench?
Plus, the Massachusetts murder of a sleeping mother and 9-month-old baby girl rocks a New England town. And tonight, the investigation goes international. Detectives touch down England`s Heathrow International to see what the husband and father may know about this double murder, the murders of his wife and child. And find out why exactly he hasn`t already jetted home to the U.S. And also tonight, we need your help, help to find a missing 24-year-old Florida woman, Jennifer Kesse, last seen Monday night dialing (ph) out from her own Orlando condo.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: Massachusetts detectives touched down England, Heathrow International, to investigate the fatal shootings of a 27-year-old American mom, Rachel Entwistle, and her 9-month-old baby girl, Lillian Rose, both asleep together in the mom`s bed, found dead, father and husband Neil Entwistle named a person of interest in the case. He took off to his native England, law enforcement flying across the ocean. Will they bring Entwistle home?
And tonight: Authorities use trained bloodhounds to search high and low for 24-year-old Jennifer Kesse. She hasn`t been heard from Monday.
But first tonight, breaking news. A Vermont judge we held in contempt caved in after outrage when he let a repeat child molester walk free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He should pay for he did (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s absolutely amazing based on what`s going on in the United States with sex offenders and registry, non-registry, and so forth, that somebody could get a 60-day sentence.
JUDGE EDWARD CASHMAN: The court grants the state`s motion to reconsider sentence. The Department of Corrections has now offered a sentencing option in this case that includes sex offender treatment (INAUDIBLE) prisoners. The court agrees a punitive response, punishment, is a valuable and necessary component of society`s response to criminal conduct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That judge doing a 180 in court today. Why? And what happens when the TV cameras go away? What happens then with Cashman on the bench?
Straight out to investigative reporter Pat Lalama. Pat, what happened in court today?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I`ll tell you what. What happened was that this judge said, All right, maybe I was a bit of a renegade a little while back when I decided I was fed up with the system, I was going to write my own laws...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait right there. Renegade? Let`s just take a listen to that for a moment, a renegade. Here is a sex offender who admits -- and I`ve read the transcript very carefully -- to about 20 instances of sodomy, sodomy on a 6-year-old little girl. And this judge lets him walk with just 60 days behind bars?
Now, where are you getting the word "renegade"?
LALAMA: Well, I`m not saying renegade as if it were a positive thing. What I mean is he was a rebel to the system. He decided he didn`t like the way that the system worked, Nancy, because it was too harsh. It was all about punishment. It didn`t have to do with treatment. Therefore, he threw up his hands and said, Then the hell with it -- excuse my lingo. I`m giving this guy 60 days, and then he`s going to have to go to treatment.
But what`s happened now is there`s a bit of a compromise because he`s come back and said, OK, I`m not denying punishment is in order. Therefore, I give this guy three to ten years. And the state is saying, Fine, he`s going to go behind bars, but we`re going to give him treatment, even though, I, for one, don`t believe treatment matters or works.
GRACE: Well, here is what Cashman had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASHMAN: The court grants the state`s motion to reconsider sentence. The Department of Corrections has now offered a sentencing option in this case that includes sex offender treatment (INAUDIBLE) prisoners.
The court agrees a punitive response, punishment, is a valuable and necessary component of society`s response to criminal conduct. It is a tool this court has routinely used for the past 24 years on the trial bench. As stated during the sentencing hearing, however, punishment is not enough of a response in some cases. For the reasons stated in the first reconsideration order, this is one of those cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, here is what Cashman wrote. This is what he said earlier. "I`m aware the intensity of some public criticism may shorten my career, but to change my decision because of negative sentiment would be wrong."
Well, you know what? That`s just what he did. He changed his decision because of negative sentiment, and he gives the guy about three years. It says three to ten years, but it could be three years behind bars, for we know of 20 instances of sodomy on the little girl.
Straight out to Alison Arngrim. You know her as Nellie of "Little House on the Prairie." Not only is she with National Association to Protect Children, she`s a child molestation victim herself. Response to the judge`s about-face?
ALISON ARNGRIM, "LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE" STAR, MOLESTATION VICTIM: Well, I`m surprised he actually did do it, not surprised at why he did it. Everyone`s having such a fit about, Oh, public pressure on a judge. Nonsense! Public pressure works really well, and we just proved it. He`s an elected official. He is subject to public pressure. If he had made the same statements that, In some cases, I don`t believe in punishment -- if he had said that about race-based hate crime, if he had said that about gay bashing, that he didn`t believe in punishment, they`d have dragged him out of there by his heels.
I am just so pleased that you and everyone else stood up for this girl and said she had the same rights as every other crime victim and needed to be treated equally and put enough pressure on this man that he`s now talking about how punishment is suddenly an option.
GRACE: Well, he suddenly had an enlightenment over the past few days. Everybody, let`s go to "The Star Chamber." With us tonight, three former trial judges, all with very well-respected trial records. Straight to Gino Brogdon, former judge on the Fulton Superior Court. Brogdon and all three of these judges have seen every type of case you can name. Judge Brogdon, reaction?
GINO BROGDON, FORMER JUDGE, FULTON CO., GEORGIA, SUPERIOR COURT: My first reaction to this sentence was there`s something missing. And that -- what was missing was punishment. And who`s speaking out for this little girl? This guy`s going to get out of jail in 60 days, and he`s going to be the same guy -- regardless of cutting-edge treatment, he`s going to be the same guy he was at the time he went in. And where`s the protection for this little girl in the community? So I knew something was missing, and I think the judge recognized that in his resentencing, that there has to be punishment.
GRACE: Well, I agree with you, but to former judge Margaret Finerty of the criminal court in New York, at the other side of the country. Judge Finerty, look what it took to get this judge to do the right thing. What is your reaction as a former judge?
MARGARET FINERTY, FORMER NEW YORK CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Well, I was really shocked and surprised by the sentence. I mean, we`re talking about a situation where a little girl, over the course of four years, was systematically abused by this individual, and the system really failed her. And it seemed again like the system was going to fail her at the sentencing, but fortunately, the judge changed his decision. I quite frankly think the sentence wasn`t harsh enough. I mean, when you bring a case like this, a criminal case, you bring it not only on behalf of the victim, you bring it on behalf of society. And how do we, as a society, respond to this type of sexual abuse of a child?
GRACE: To a former judge out of Harris County, Texas, Judge Ted Poe. You certainly see your share of criminal cases. Everybody, with us tonight, a "Star Chamber" from all around the country of former criminal judges. Judge Poe, you were there in Washington with me with the Child Safety Act of 2005. I find Cashman`s sentence, even now, the possibility of just three years for over 20 acts that we know of, of sodomy on a little girl -- I still say it`s way off mark for three years, Judge Poe! This guy could do as little as one year behind bars!
TED POE, FORMER HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS, JUDGE: No question about it. Three years is what we give burglars and auto thieves.
POE: This is a crime of violence against a 6-year-old that occurred for four years. She has been sentenced to life emotionally and physically because of the crime against her. The individual that committed the crime, he deserves life in the penitentiary. There is no cure. There is no rehabilitation. These people do not change ever. We know that. All statistics prove that. And so the person needs to be in prison.
We build prisons to house child molesters, and that`s where he ought to be. So three years isn`t near enough, either.
GRACE: You know, I want to now go to Marc Klaas, president of Beyondmissing. His daughter, Polly, as you know, was kidnapped. She was molested and she was murdered. Marc, don`t get me wrong, I`m happy the judge gave a stiffer sentence because, you know, sentencing is three prongs. Two of those prongs -- one is punishment, one is rehabilitation, and one is deterrence. I`m focusing on punishment and rehab tonight.
Marc Klaas, what do you make of this judge? I mean, I`m happy for the turnabout, but what`s going to happen when the camera leaves and I don`t have two eyes on him?
MARC KLAAS, PRES., BEYONDMISSING.COM: Listen, I`m with you and Judge Poe on this. This guy should be in prison for 20 years. Those are the terms under "Jessica`s law," which has been passed in Florida, and hopefully, there will be a national initiative to do that.
But let`s be clear. As the judge said, there has never in the history of the world been a case of a pedophile or a psychopath having been cured. And this guy, who has been evaluated as a low-risk sex offender, we have to remember he offended against this child over four years. He was investigated in 2003. He continued to do it after that. The girl`s parents let this guy sleep with them (ph). The judge let this thing go down, and he was going to let him walk. And it was absolutely public pressure that forced him to do this.
What we might need in a case like this -- and this is why we have had laws like "three strikes" -- are something that limits prosecutorial -- I`m sorry -- limits judicial discretion.
GRACE: Yes, because the prosecution was not in on this little deal, all right?
GRACE: The prosecution, I believe, told me on the air they wanted 8 to 20. This is what you call a "blind plea." In other words, you don`t have a plea agreement with the prosecution, you just throw yourself at the judge and say,, Here are the facts. Give me a light sentence. And in this case, Cashman did it.
I want to go back to "The Star Chamber." I want to go back to former judge Gino Brogdon. Judge, when you take a look at this, what this judge did was project his own personal frustration with not enough rehab. Hey, I felt it, too, as a prosecutor! I want rehab in a lot of cases, but I didn`t take it out on the victim, a girl, a 6-year-old girl, Judge Brogdon!
BROGDON: You know, it seems to me it was glaring, in looking at this sentence, that the little girl was forgotten in this whole equation. Where is her protection? She was threatened by this man before she spoke out, and 60 days later, he gets to get out and he gets to walk free, and he gets to potentially re-violate her and other little girls. And she was just lost in the shuffle.
GRACE: To Penny Douglass Furr, veteran defense attorney. Penny, I believe that you and I have both been taking a hard look at Cashman`s record. What can you tell us about Cashman?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I believe several years ago, he was on the family court, and there was an appeal that went up and it was alleged that Cashman believed that the woman was responsible for holding the marriage together. And several men -- women complained about the men being given favorable treatment, and he was pulled off family court for two years and it was required that he take a couple more years of classes in family law before he was allowed to handle any other divorces.
But Nancy, also, everybody`s overlooking this child`s protection was also her parents. Why are they not being prosecuted? They were well aware and the state warned them about this man years ago. They continued to allow him to sleep with her, to be in bed with her and to baby-sit her. Why are they being totally overlooked in this entire process?
GRACE: Penny, for once, I could not agree with you more. They all need to go straight to jail. They can enjoy each other`s company behind bars.
We`ll all be right back. As you know, Judge Edward Cashman has now done an about-face in court, but what`s going to happen when we look the other way and resume our business? What will Cashman do next? He`s not elected. He is appointed. And guess what? According to my calculations, he`s coming up for reappointment in 2007.
Very quickly to tonight`s "Case Alert." Last night here, we profiled a 34-year-old San Francisco father of two, Sean Keel, gunned down, carjacked on his way home from work. Why? For the rims on his car. Police searching tonight for his killer. Very little to go on. San Francisco needs your help.
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ROSA KEEL, SEAN KEEL`S WIFE: I don`t know what they did, but they shouldn`t have done what they did to my husband! They shouldn`t have done that. He`s lost. He`s going to be greatly missed. I`m begging you, please help us so that we can have some type of closure and go on with our lives.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Hello, Daddy. I want you to come home right now because I don`t feel good. Bye. I love you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A trust fund set up tonight to help Sean`s family, donations in care of Wells Fargo Bank, 464 California Street, San Francisco, 94163. And if you have info on the murder of Sean Keel, call a confidential tip line, 415-575-4444. Don`t let the murder of Sean Keel be just another statistic on the unsolved homicide list.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) He should pay for what he did to my baby! It`s not fair (INAUDIBLE) do what he did to (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was the mother of the little girl, crying after court after a superior court judge, Judge Edward Cashman, sentenced her daughter`s molester to just 60 days behind bars. He did an about-face today, now sentencing the perp from three to ten which means he`ll probably be out in about a year for over 20 sodomies on this little girl.
Let`s go back to "The Star Chamber." To Ted Poe, former judge out of Harris County, Texas. Judge, what I don`t quite understand is how, under the law, this judge got to do a do-over. I thought that was only for bad golfers. I mean, the plea was entered. The sentence went down. But after public criticism, thank God they reversed the sentence. But how do you do a do-over?
POE: In this particular case, the defendant was given the option to withdraw his plea of guilty, enter a plea of not guilty and have a trial. He decided not to do that because the judge said he would give him a sentence of three to ten years on a re-plea. So that`s exactly legally how it was done in this particular case. But you know, three years is not much for this type of crime at all.
GRACE: But, to Judge Finerty also on "The Star Chamber" tonight, former judge out of New York state -- Judge, aren`t plea deals or blind pleas, such as in this case -- once it goes down, it`s not binding? I mean, when can a judge say, You know what? I got a little heat on that. Let`s have a do-over.
FINERTY: Well, in this case, initially, there was an understanding that he would get no more than 90 days in jail. And then the judge said that he was advised that the defendant could get treatment in prison, so under those circumstances, he felt it was more appropriate that he serve a longer sentence. Initially, he said because Corrections told him he wouldn`t get any treatment in jail, that he was only going to give him 60 days because he felt it was very important that this defendant receive treatment.
Unfortunately, as my colleagues have already stated, in these kinds of cases, treatment doesn`t seem to work. If you`re a pedophile, if you`re a sex offender, unfortunately, from what we`ve seen, you tend to be a recidivist and treatment will not help.
GRACE: And Judge Finerty, I wish it were different, but it`s not. I agree with you. With many other cases, even drug cases, drug addicts can be rehabbed. For some reason, sex predators, no way.
All the guests will be back, another defense attorney and psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall joining us, along with "The Star Chamber."
But quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." The murder trial of Michelle Waterman (ph) goes on, then 16-year-old Waterman accused of arranging the murder of her own mother! Waterman, her 24-year-old boyfriend, Brian Radell (ph), and Jason Aront (ph), also 24, admit they conspired to kill 48-year-old Laurie Waterman (ph), trying to make the death look like a crash. The two men say they`ll testify at Waterman`s trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASHMAN: Had the Department of Corrections offered a treatment option during the three-year period of imprisonment it sought at the first sentencing hearing, the court would have accepted that recommendation as the minimum portion of the ten-year prison term imposed on count one at that hearing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There is Judge Cashman taking an opportunity to justify his pathetic sentence on a repeat child molester of 60 days, long, hard days behind bars. We would be paying for his cot and three, three meals.
To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Bethany, when the glare of the cameras leave, what is Cashman going to do? This is a guy who quit his square-dancing classes because he thought it was unjudicial, but he`s not afraid to dispense a sentence like that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I`m frightened about what he`ll do because here`s a study that he knows about. Everyone knows about this. The Department of Justice put this out, that there was a polygraph study done on incarcerated sex offenders, and what they discovered from the study is that these sex offenders had molested victims for 17 years prior to their conviction, arrest and conviction, and that 43 percent of them reconvict within four years of being released from jail. So these guys are prolific offenders.
How could Cashman have ignored this evidence? And what will he do when the cameras are turned? He`ll ignore again.
GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, let`s go one last time to tonight`s "Star Chamber," three veteran and well-respected judges from benches all over the country. Final thought, Judge Poe?
POE: Well, this judge in this case is really not dealing with the way the world really is. He doesn`t understand the crime. He doesn`t understand the criminal mind with sex offenders. And it`s time for him to move on to another profession.
GRACE: Gino Brogdon?
BROGDON: Well, this decision obviously is going to haunt this judge. I would hate to think that any judge is defined by one bad decision. This is clearly a bad one. But I would hope that the outcry from the public and the pressure that this judge has felt will make this judge very thoughtful in the future in doing something so radical.
GRACE: And Judge Finerty?
FINERTY: Nancy, I think it`s wonderful that you and other members of the press have brought this to the attention of the public. We need to protect our children. We need to do whatever we can to make them safe, and that certainly wasn`t going to be done in this case until the judge gave a stiffer sentence, although not stiff enough.
GRACE: And Judge Finerty, to use the bench and a 6-year-old victim to espouse your own frustrations -- unacceptable!
FINERTY: Yes, I agree, Nancy. You really have to think more about the victim in this case and society.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The American dream turned nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The Hopkinton murder case led a network newscast here and is getting big play in British tabloids, we`ve picked up. One paper calls the case a big puzzle, another shouts, "Fugitive dad was Internet con man."
The scandal sheets are calling Neil a porn scamster, playing up the porn pyramid scene Neil reportedly ran, promising to make investors into millionaires.
Massachusetts detectives not only wouldn`t answer my questions about how their investigation is going, they wouldn`t say how long they expect to be here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We know tonight the investigation has taken an international turn. Entwistle, we believe, was on a manifest en route from the U.S. to his native Great Britain on Friday. His wife and baby girl`s bodies found dead Sunday. When guests came to the home on Saturday for a dinner party, no one came to a door.
Straight out to Chris Biondi, managing editor with "Metro West Daily News." Chris, thank you for being with us. Bring us up-to-date. What`s happening?
CHRIS BIONDI, MANAGING EDITOR, "METRO WEST DAILY NEWS": Well, a couple of new developments in the investigation. We learned today that eBay has turned over documents to police, documents related to a Web site, documents related to sales that Neil Entwistle was doing on their site.
GRACE: Sales of what, dare I ask?
BIONDI: Well, it mostly sales -- and actually had a pretty good record up until about the beginning of January -- sales of software licensing.
GRACE: Well, then why were naked ladies on his Web site?
BIONDI: Well, those that we saw were related more to what appeared to be pyramid schemes, kind of make-money-quick deals. And in fact, we in the couple of weeks in early January when reviews of their sale started to turn sour, we contacted one of those people.
GRACE: And I still don`t understand why naked ladies were on a pyramid scheme.
BIONDI: Well, what they did is they would put a picture of a nude or nude covered up as what they said was a teaser. And you scroll down to the bottom, and you learn how you`re going to get rich quick and get to the bottom...
GRACE: Oh, business opportunity. OK. OK. All right. Forget the business opportunity. Forget the Internet scamster line of questioning. I want to get to do: Where is this guy? And why hasn`t come home, his wife, his daughter, dead?
BIONDI: Well, that`s the big question and among the top five I`d ask him if I were able to interview him. But he is in England. And Massachusetts detectives, two from the state place, two from the Hopkinton police flew to England. They arrived earlier this morning. They are in London. And learned today that Neil Entwistle is not with his parent, as was reported, but somewhere in the same county with relatives.
GRACE: What more can you tell me about the scene of the crime? The mother and child apparently killed with a .22 caliber, a very small weapon. In fact, when the bodies were found, they couldn`t even tell the cause of death. There was not really any blood.
BIONDI: The police arrived at their home Sunday evening. They had been called by relatives of Rachel Entwistle, because the previous day family members had arrived for a planned dinner party. No one answered the door.
They called police the next day, even more concerned. Police entered the home forcefully, went to the master bedroom, found Rachel and her baby under a pile of blankets. At first, the D.A. said there was little or no blood. At first, they thought it was an accidental death, maybe carbon monoxide poisoning. But further investigation, they found a bullet wound in their torsos and later, the autopsy the following day, found a bullet wound in Rachel`s head.
GRACE: With us is the managing editor of "Metro West Daily News," Chris Biondi.
Very quickly to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. Bethany, in many of the murder cases I prosecuted -- and what Chris Biondi just said reminded me of it -- the bodies would be found covered with a blanket, with a pillow over the head, with some covering, a sofa cushion over the body. What`s that about?
MARSHALL: Honestly, Nancy, murderers are cowards. I mean, there`s two types of murderers. There`s predatory murderers and then there are emotional murders, murderers who murder for reasons, such as disputes over money, property, jealousy, envy.
And these types of murderers are often cowardly. They will put a pillow over the other person`s head, murder them while they`re sleeping, shoot them in the back of the head. And I think that, you know, some kind of motivation like that would have come into play in a situation this.
GRACE: But I mean the aspect of covering the bodies up with blankets as if, what, nobody`s going to -- they`re hiding, they can`t see them, like the ostrich with the head in the sand and its butt in the air? It can`t see you, so can`t see it? Why do you cover -- here`s two bodies, and he puts a banky on them? Well, look, OK, that`s freaky.
MARSHALL: It is freaky. But think about the husband who shoots the wife while she`s sleeping. That`s freaky. If I shoot you while you`re sleeping, you won`t know I did it, and then I won`t feel bad about the fact that I did that to you.
MARSHALL: Murder is freaky, period. And a lot of these times these murderers murder because they don`t want something to be found out by the spouse, which made me wonder in this case, if the husband played a roll, was something going down with these scams? Could he not afford the $2,700 rent and he had to murder her because she would have been unhappy with some impending discovery?
GRACE: Now, let me reiterate again that Neil Entwistle, age 27, is not an official suspect. He has only been named a person of interest.
I want to go to Rahul Manchanda. Rahul is an international law attorney, an expert in international law. What legal authority do Massachusetts police have in Great Britain?
RAHUL MANCHANDA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, very little. But the reality is the U.S. and the U.K. are very close in relationships. And, you know, it should be considered almost a 51st state. But you are right, in the sense that he`s not a suspect. He`s a person of interest.
GRACE: I`m sure they`ll be happy to hear that you think they`re the 51st state.
MANCHANDA: From a legal standpoint, if you`re going to hide in any country, it shouldn`t be the U.K.
GRACE: You`re right about that, unless the states are seeking the death penalty. They will not extradite. The whole E.U. -- Great Britain has done what the E.U. told them to do, get rid of the death penalty. They don`t have the death penalty. And they will not extradite. But Massachusetts doesn`t have the death penalty, either.
MANCHANDA: That`s absolutely correct. They will extradite to Massachusetts. But the thing is here right now, because he is not considered a suspect and he`s a person of interest, the reason the police are going there right now is to collect that kind of evidence, to change the theory there, so they can extradite him and try to get a stronger argument to bring him back to the United States.
GRACE: To veteran trial lawyer Matt Mangino, Matt, thank you for being with us. How unusual is it, this move for Massachusetts police to go to Great Britain, not relying on Scotland Yard, not relying on British police to bring him home? What does this mean to you?
MATT MANGINO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that they would rely on Scotland Yard to do the kind of work, the detective work, the canvassing, things like that. I think they`re there mainly for the purposes of a statement.
They want to ensure that, if this individual makes a statement, that it comports with the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of Massachusetts, so that they can use that statement in the event this case would come to trial at some future point. I think that`s the only reason they`re there.
GRACE: You know what? That`s an excellent point. And we also know that he is not with his parents. There may be some investigative work in trying to locate him.
Joining me right now, a very special guest, Dr. Jonathon Arden, medical examiner. Doctor, these two bodies in my mind were in repose, they were on the bed, sleeping together. In fact, at first, investigators thought one bullet killed both people. Why didn`t investigators see the bullet wounds immediately?
JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, that`s a great question, Nancy. And the only thing I can think of is that -- we do seem to think there`s a .22 caliber, a small caliber weapon involved here. That does generally leave smaller entry and exit holes. There might have been less bleeding.
But you still have to wonder about who was looking at it, and did they have the right eyes looking at this? After all, you know, police are not medical experts, the same way medical experts aren`t law enforcement experts. And I think they may have gone forward without having the right person on the scene to tell them what was going on and what they saw.
GRACE: You know, one thing that`s disturbing me -- well, every murder is disturbing, especially as a crime victim -- but, Dr. Arden, this little baby was shot in the abdomen. And from the murders that I prosecuted, when a child -- when anyone was shot in the abdomen, very often there was a very prolonged death, which is bad enough for an adult, but to imagine a baby helpless there, suffering a long death. What do you think about the suffering of this child?
ARDEN: I think that you hit upon something that`s very, very sad and very true. The likelihood with an abdominal wound is that the baby did not die quickly and did not die painlessly and probably did suffer over some prolonged period of time.
Gunshot wounds of infants or children are exceedingly rare, even under circumstances of domestic violence, even under the freakiness as you and the other guests were talking about with murder in general.
But this is clearly much more likely to be the kind of thing where this was not an instantaneous death. There probably was some suffering involved. And it looks like the killer, whoever, went to finish the job on the mother, in terms of putting the bullet in her head, and didn`t have the same kind of thoughts to the baby.
GRACE: Very quickly, Dr. Arden, there`s no way we can really determine which shot came first, is there, unless the bleeding would give it away, the amount the bleeding?
ARDEN: Actually, that`s true. Usually you don`t get to make order of shots. That`s the kind of thing that is not necessarily something you can discern.
But I would be looking in this case to see if there was any substantial bleeding internally from the abdominal shot, because that could be an indication of the passage of time before the shot to the head. So there may be a way to tell that.
GRACE: And Marc Klaas, who is a crime victim himself, Marc, what does it say to you -- when your daughter went missing, you begged cops, "Polygraph me, take me, search my car, search my house, please." This guy hasn`t even come home from Great Britain.
KLAAS: Well, it`s pretty obvious that there`s probably some involvement. And hopefully, they`re able to get enough information and enough evidence together so they can extradite him back and try him for this crime.
GRACE: Again, he`s not a suspect, but the fact that he doesn`t come home, Marc, is just astounding to me.
KLAAS: Listen, when somebody in your family, somebody that you`re supposed to be very close to, is murdered, if you have nothing to do with it and you have any kinds of feelings for this individual, you take it to the police and you do what you can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jennifer doesn`t leave things open-ended like this at all. She would never just leave, or -- I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Help us find this young girl. Last we know of her, she was in her own condo there in Orlando, Florida. She called her dad from her condo. We know that for sure. Never seen again.
Let`s go straight to reporter with WDBO Radio, Mike Synan. Mike, thank you for being with us. What do we know tonight?
MIKE SYNAN, WDBO REPORTER: Well, we know very little at this point about exactly how Jennifer disappeared. The last contact with anyone, as you said, was Monday night at 10:00 p.m. She called her boyfriend who lives in south Florida. That was the last anyone has seen or heard from her.
She did not show up for work on Tuesday, and that instantly alerted family and friends. She`s apparently a very responsible woman, from everything that we`ve been told, and her not showing up for work was just unexplainable.
So at that point, they reported her as missing. Now we`re looking at about 72 hours, and her vehicle had also disappeared. That was found today. Now the search is on for her.
And they`ve been using a lot of tactics, blood hounds in the woods between where her car was found. They`re searching the vehicle for any type of clues there. But at this point, no word from Jennifer whatsoever.
GRACE: Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, what other circumstances can you tell us about (INAUDIBLE) disappearance?
LALAMA: Well, here`s a couple of things we do know. Her house was locked. Nothing seemed out of place. It doesn`t appear to have been any kind of a struggle. She had, as you said, spoken to her father and she had spoken to her boyfriend.
The only thing that people seem to recall were that -- she`s relatively -- just out of college, couple of years. She had talked to her dad about being very proud that she was able to move into this condo. However, she did express to him some nervousness.
She said, you know? It`s a lot of weird. I mean, there`s a lot of construction workers around. There`s people I don`t know. And she did express that nervousness.
But aside from that, her car, a Chevy Malibu, was found down the street at another apartment complex, and that`s all anyone knows at this point.
GRACE: Not far away at all. I`m hearing in my ear -- with me now a very special guest. Let`s go to Drew Kesse. This is Jennifer Kesse`s dad. Mr. Kesse, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about your girl?
DREW KESSE, JENNIFER KESSE`S FATHER: Thank you, Nancy. Well, obviously that Jennifer is still out and missing. And we miss her very much. We strongly believe that she is OK.
She is a very intelligent young lady and very strong-willed, and she knows -- she knows how many people love her and are looking for her at this time. And I believe she will stay with everything until we find her.
GRACE: Everybody, tip line, 800-423-TIPS. Tomorrow, we expect the reward to go up to $15,000. Jennifer Kesse, just 24, white female, 5`8", 135 pounds, green eyes, blonde hair.
Back to Jennifer`s father. Did they recover her cell? Did they recover her pocketbook?
KESSE: The cell has not been recovered as yet. And I have to be honest with you, as far as the pocketbook is concerned, that was part of an investigation going on of which I do not know at this point.
GRACE: Don`t know. Was her home locked?
KESSE: The home was locked, and nothing was touched. She had moved into her new condo two days before Thanksgiving. And my wife -- actually, our family has been helping her spruce it up. It`s absolutely gorgeous and absolutely put everything in place perfectly.
GRACE: You were reminding me of my mom and dad taking me from one apartment to the next, getting through school, starting work. I can see it right now.
Mr. Kesse, no sign of a struggle. Was her car locked or unlocked when they found it?
KESSE: Unfortunately, I do not know that.
GRACE: OK. And I understand the investigation is ongoing.
Everybody, take a look at this vehicle. Her car found just down the street from her condo, no sign of Jennifer Kesse.
When you call her cell, does it go straight to the voice mail or does it ring, as if she may have it?
KESSE: No, it has -- since I`ve tried to make initial contact a few days ago, it goes directly into her voice mail.
GRACE: Mr. Kesse, when you spoke with her that evening, what was she talking about?
KESSE: She was in a great mood, number one. She had just gone away for the weekend to St. Croix with her boyfriend. And she was telling me exactly how much fun they had and what they did, and what was I cooking for dinner that night, and she didn`t know exactly what she was going to have for dinner. It was short, but we talk a couple times a day. And that`s basically what we spoke about.
GRACE: Mr. Kesse, don`t move. We`ll all be right back in a search for Jennifer Kesse.
But very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI, law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Jacer Medina, wanted in connection with the 1994 Illinois shooting death of Ricky McDaniel.
Medina, 32, 5`5", 135 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Jacer Medina, please call the FBI, 312-431-1333.
Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back, including Jennifer`s father. And remember, live coverage of a 16-year-old New Mexico boy on trial for the shooting death of his family, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us tonight as we stop to remember Sergeant Byron W. Norwood, just 25, an American hero.
GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 13-year-old Phillip Brown. Phillip missing from Chicago since December 3, 2005. If you have information on this boy, Phillip Brown, please call Chicago police, 312- 745-6052, or go online to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.
In our last remaining moments, I want to go straight back to Jennifer`s father, Drew Kesse. Drew, if you could speak out now to Jennifer -- and I pray that you can -- what is your message?
KESSE: I would tell Jennifer that your family loves you. You have an incredible amount of people looking for you. We will find you. We will find you, Jennifer. Hang tough. Be strong like we know you are.
And if anyone -- it does not matter where you are in this country right now -- if anyone has any information, it`s never too small, please contact the authorities.
But, Jennifer, we love you, you know that, and we will be there for you.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, what should police be doing now?
KLAAS: Well, fortunately in Florida they have what they call car teams (ph), which are coordinated efforts between all law enforcement agencies. They`re positioned regionally, and it goes everything from FDLE to search-and-rescue resources.
So they`re better at responding to missing persons cases than almost anybody else in the country. In fact, they`re going to replicate that system throughout the United States. So if you`re going to disappear, that`s the place to do it. And I think it`s illustrative to look at the incredible contrast between this father and the parents at the beginning of the show.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, I love having you on the show, even though I know it reminds you of losing your girl. Marc, thank you.
Everybody, can you help us find this girl, Jennifer Kesse? Tip line: 1-800-423-TIPS. The reward going up to $15,000.
Especially to you, Mr. Kesse, Drew Kesse, thank you for being with us.
But tonight, I want to thank all of my guests for being with us. Our biggest thank you is to you, tonight and every night, being with all of us, inviting our stories and our searches into your homes.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.