Return to Transcripts main page
What Happened to Jennifer Kesse?
Aired February 07, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a widespread search for a 24-year-old Florida woman who seems to have vanished from the face of the earth. What happened to Jennifer Kesse? And does a new surveillance photograph hold the key to solving the mystery?
Also tonight, the Indiana triple murder trial focusing on a beautiful family, a mom, her young daughter and son, all three brutally gunned down at home. Did the father, a former police officer, David Camm, do it? He is on trial tonight, and we go live to Indiana for the very latest.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, a triple homicide case, a 35-year-old mom, Kimberly Camm, her 5-year-old daughter, Jill, and 7-year-old son, Bradley, shot to death in their Indiana home. Was the killer the husband and father, David Camm, a former state trooper? His 2004 convictions in the brutal slayings were overturned. Tonight, he is on trial again.
But first, police need your help to find a beautiful 24-year-old Florida woman, Jennifer Kesse, missing two weeks. Investigators are desperately trying to find a person of interest who may have information on Jennifer Kesse`s disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone knows something. We`re still looking for Jennifer, all right, not only this person now to help us out, but we`re still looking for Jennifer. That`s the main thing here. What we do know is somebody probably knows the person involved or people involved in this case, they just haven`t come forward. Whoever has her, do the right thing, as we`ve been saying all the time, and just let her go and be off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The longer something goes on, it is certainly always going to be concerning to the family and it`s always going to be concerning to us. But you know, we`re going to always hope and keep our fingers crossed that we can move quickly with whatever information we get and try to find her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go straight to Orlando, Florida, and WDBO radio reporter Mike Synan, who is joining us on the phone right now. Mike, you have been covering this case from the start. What is the very latest?
MIKE SYNAN, WDBO RADIO: Well, the very latest is that the case continues just to be exasperating for the media, as they to try to figure out what happened and try to give as much help as they can to the family. Basically, another day and another search of an area, this time it`s an abandoned timeshare complex. And they took dogs out there, cadaver dogs. The intent was to see if someone could have maybe hidden Jennifer`s body in this abandoned area. Nothing was found, so again, we are without leads.
And another search is being organized for this weekend. Last weekend, about 1,200 volunteers from all around Orlando and the west coast, as well, came out to see if there was any way that they could help, looking in as many wooded areas as they could find, areas that the police thought it might be fruitful for them to search, areas that they had already cleared for potential evidence. And again, nothing is available.
So now we concentrate on the surveillance video. There is surveillance video from outside the place where Jennifer`s vehicle was found, but that image is obscured. There`s an iron bar that keeps you from being able to see the face of this person in the video. The video has been released, and once again, Orlando police and the Kesse family are calling for anyone who knows anything about this person to come forward and give us any kind of information as to where Jennifer might be.
The video -- you can`t see the person`s face because of the iron bars there. All you can tell is basically that it`s a white male. So once again, there are very few clues to go on, and I`m sure it`s very frustrating for investigators, at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, it`s got to be because there you have a photograph of somebody taken from a video, and yet it`s tantalizing because you can`t see the person`s face.
Let`s go straight out to Rob Allen. He is the boyfriend of Jennifer Kesse. Rob, first of all, thank you for joining us for this exclusive interview. We know this is a very emotional time for you, a very difficult time, and we thank you for taking the time. We know you are a key piece of the puzzle because you were the last person to talk to Jennifer the night before she disappeared. Tell us all about that conversation, when it took place, what she said. Was there anything out of the ordinary?
ROB ALLEN, JENNIFER KESSE`S BOYFRIEND: Nothing out of the ordinary. I`ve known Jennifer for about the last 12 months, and we talked periodically throughout the day every day, every night before she goes to bed, every morning before, when she wakes up. We`d recently just come back from a vacation, and we talked throughout the day on Monday, and then Monday evening, she called me `round about 10:00 o`clock. She was in bed. She was tired from the vacation that we had just recently taken, had a long day at work. We talked briefly. No problem at all. We both said we missed each other and we were looking forward to the next time we were going to spend with each other.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s listen to what a friend said about Jennifer Kesse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jennifer doesn`t leave things open-ended like this at all. She would never just leave or -- I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Rob, I understand that she was in the habit of doing something very romantic, sending you a text message or a phone message the next day, the next morning, to say, Hey, I`m OK, I love you, that kind of thing. She didn`t do that the next day. Tell us about that and why it sparked concerns to you.
ALLEN: Well, normally, like I`ve said, Jennifer and I had gotten into the routine -- Jennifer always woke up before me. She had to go to work before I did. So she every day would either call me just to say, Good morning, Have a great day, or just text me to wish me to, you know, have a great day, Love you, that type of thing. And when I didn`t receive it Tuesday morning, I thought it was odd, but I was running a little late for work, so I called her on the way into work and just (INAUDIBLE) her voice- mail. I called her both...
ALLEN: Go ahead. Sorry.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that, of course, sparked concerns in you or not, at that moment?
ALLEN: Not -- yes, I thought it was odd, but I knew Jennifer had been away for a couple days on vacation, so I knew she had a lot on her plate and I knew she had a busy schedule. So I left a message with her and then went ahead with my day. And then after my meeting -- I had a meeting at 9:00 o`clock. After I had that meeting, I called her again, and once again I got her voice-mail, which I thought was odd. And it was then that her parents called me to notify me that she hadn`t shown up for work that day.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Rob, her parents are here with us tonight. We`d like to introduce them and thank them for being on. Drew and Joyce Kesse, thank you so much for joining us. We know that this has to be an excruciatingly difficult time for you. We thank you for being here. Our hearts are with you, and we hope we can somehow help.
She didn`t show up the next day for work. What happened then? How were you alerted? When did you become worried?
DREW KESSE, JENNIFER`S FATHER: We were alerted by her employer. Jennifer is very prompt and responsible, and if she was going to be five minutes late to work, she would have called her immediate supervisor to say, you know, I`m going to be a few minutes late. As soon as she did not report to work, they checked her schedule. She was not supposed to be off- property. And they began to start to call us to say if we were aware of where Jennifer was.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joyce, tell us about your daughter. She`s a beautiful, beautiful young woman. Tell us about her spirit, her character.
JOYCE KESSE, JENNIFER`S MOTHER: She`s probably a million times more beautiful on the inside, always has been, has just been -- is just a beautiful, caring, thoughtful, kind person, has a lot going for her, has always been someone to reach for the stars. And for the most part, she`s always grabbed hold of them. And this whole thing has just been one hellish nightmare.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I can certainly understand that.
And for the moment, let`s go to Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. What are these parents going through? What is the hell that they are going through right now with this uncertainty?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, nothing could be worse than this because there`s nothing definitive that`s happening right now. It`s not as though they have an outcome, so there`s sort of no control. They`re stuck there, Jane. I can`t imagine anything worse for parents.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they`re showing such self-control, such grace at this time. But I can`t even imagine, I cannot even comprehend what it must be like for them to wait and wonder, hoping for the police to get a break in this case.
And let`s go to the authorities now. We have Sgt. Barbara Jones. She is the spokeswoman for the Orlando Police Department. Barbara, thank you for joining us. We`d like to talk to you about this very latest development, this still picture taken off a video. Give us a timeline. Where is this video taken? How does that fit into the timeline of her missing and the discovery of the abandoned car?
SGT. BARBARA JONES, PIO, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes. We established a timeline of Monday, when she last talked to Rob, which was about 10:00 PM, to Thursday at around 8:06, when a resident of that condominium complex located her car. So that`s about a 58-hour window.
We did obtain some video surveillance at the condominiums where her vehicle was found, and that surveillance video depicted a picture of a pedestrian, which we`re classifying as a person of interest. That video was taken on Wednesday the 24th at around 12:00 noon. So Monday at 10:00 PM until the following day at 12:00 noon is the timeframe where we had that pedestrian, who is a person of interest in this case that we`re desperately trying to find out who that is, to see what they know about possibly the whereabouts of Jennifer Kesse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, correct me if I`m wrong, but my understanding is that she lived in one apartment complex, one condo complex. Her car was found abandoned about a mile away, which is near another condo complex. Have you talked to all the people who live in both of those condo complexes to find out if anybody knows anything?
JONES: Absolutely. The day that we located her car, we did a door- to-door knock-and-talk. We also did a track with some bloodhounds from her car, which led back to the condominium where she lived, which was about a mile away. We did a door-to-door knock where she lived. We also went back on a Saturday to try to make contact with people who may not have been there during the weekday hours, to see if we could catch them maybe on a weekend when they were home. So we did numerous times go back to both complexes to see if we could generate any information...
JONES: ... related to her whereabouts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that seems extremely significant that you had some bloodhounds that traced the scent of the abandoned car straight back to her condo. What`s the significance of that, do you know, at all?
JONES: Sure. It`s hard to theorize what it is because I`m not an expert in bloodhound tracking. It was a scent that was picked up from the car that went back to her condominium. What we did with that is we created a 3-to-5-mile radius around that track, and we`ve done numerous grid searches in wooded, isolated areas where, if somebody was trying to hide something related to this case, we would be able to find it in those particular areas.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Former prosecutor Wendy Murphy, what do you make of all this, that the car is found abandoned about a mile away from where this young woman lived, and then the scent goes back to the condo?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. Jane, you know, I just can`t even think of another case remotely like this one in terms of the curiosities. And as I was listening, I was struck by the fact that she was in bed on a Monday night, according to Rob, her boyfriend, in bed at 10:00 PM, saying good night. So presumably, she was safe in bed on Monday night, and she didn`t call him the next morning, which is something, according to him, she did on a regular basis, apparently, before she even left her condo.
So what I want to know is, who was living around her that might have done something literally overnight to her? Because that traceback now with the bloodhound, the traceback from the abandonment of the car to the condo. suggests the possibility that the person was there because they might have had access to her, again, during that overnight period...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good point.
MURPHY: ... and then going back again, for whatever reason thereafter. But I`m told, and correct me if I`m wrong, there was no evidence of break-in, so this had to be someone who perhaps knew her, knew she was there, and for some reason had access.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And I want to go back to the parents, Drew and Joyce. What can you tell us about the condition of her condo complex? Was anything amiss?
JOYCE KESSE: No. As a matter of fact, while we were driving over to Orlando from Bradenton (ph), we had called the condominium complex and asked if they could send some management to check out her condo. Two managers did go over, and her unit was locked. And when we arrived, there was nothing amiss. You know, typical -- typical Jen, if you must know, you know, hurriedly leaving for work, make-up out on the counter, hair dryer, you know, what she wore to bed the night before on the bathroom floor, bed not made, a couple of outfits strewn on her bed, just -- but that`s typical for Jen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And apparently...
JOYCE KESSE: So really, there was nothing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her purse was missing and her cell phone was missing. Is that correct?
JOYCE KESSE: Yes, and her iPod.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! So this tells us a lot. We`re going to digest this. We`re going to come right back and we`re going to continue to analyze this case with the hope of being some help to these parents, who are going through such a tough time tonight.
To tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Police say the car of a Georgia murder victim has been found in the parking lot of a Wal-Mart in northeast Alabama. Lisa Ann Brocades (ph), a 27-year-old mother of two young daughters, was found stabbed to death in her home a month ago. Her 35- year-old ex-boyfriend, Guillermo Castaneta (ph), was charged with her murder.
Also on the docket tonight, an Illinois teenager on trial for allegedly killing a 16-year-old schoolmate, Adrienne Reynolds (ph), her body burned, dismembered and dumped in two counties. Seventeen-year-old Sarah Kolb (ph) and her 18-year-old ex-boyfriend, Cory Gregory (ph), are charged with first degree murder and concealing a homicide. Kolb`s first trial ended in mistrial. Kolb faces up to 60 years in prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW KESSE: She`s a strong, intelligent woman, and she knows how to do what she has to do at this time. We know that. And she knows that we are still with her. I talk to her all day long in my heart. We know she`s out there. And she does have a brain and she can think very quickly on her feet on what she needs to do and what she does not need to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. What happened to Jennifer Kesse, 5-foot-8, 135 pounds, green eyes? This beautiful 24-year-old did not show up for her job the Tuesday before last as a financial analyst in the Orlando, Florida, area. Now a massive manhunt is on as her anxious parents wait and worry. They are here with us tonight.
Drew, I understand that you`ve set up a Web site to encourage tips. I want to ask you, though, more than anything else, what do you think? What`s your theory? When did things start to go awry? Was it the next morning, when she was in the car driving to work, do you think?
DREW KESSE: Well, my personal gut feeling is she got ready to go to work as normal. And as soon as that condominium door closed, I don`t know what happened from that point. That`s -- that`s where I think it started to happen, whatever it was. I`m not sure whether she got in that car herself or not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pat Brown, criminal profiler, your job is to take all these elements and try to make sense of them. What kind of theory are coming up with right now?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Jane, I think that Jennifer`s father is correct. I think what happened was she left that condominium, was getting into her car, and that`s where she was abducted because if somebody had their own vehicle, they would grab her and pull her into their vehicle because it`s much easier to work a crime scene when the police don`t know where the crime scene is.
But when you use somebody else`s vehicle and that is found, that`s going to be a crime scene. So my guess is this guy lived in condominium or was working in the condominium. That`s why he took her car, took it someplace, did something and then dropped it off and went back where he had to go because he either works or he lives there. So I think the police do have a focus. They can go right to that condominium, ask everybody who do they know, what psychopathic creature is running around that condominiums that people know, living there or working there, that might have abducted Jennifer when she came out of that condominium and went to her car.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let`s go to Jennifer`s boyfriend, Rob Allen. We had heard some reports, and maybe you can confirm them or deny them, that she had been a little nervous living in that condo complex. She said there were construction workers or there was something that was kind of freaking her out a little. Can you tell us about that?
ALLEN: I don`t think anything in particular. I think Jennifer, being a young, 24-year-old female -- any young female living alone probably has a sense of uneasiness. I know she was having some work done on her condominium and just getting ready to complete. I think that had just recently been completed. I don`t think there was anything out of the ordinary. I think that she -- like anyone that lives on their own, there`s always a sense of uneasiness.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Very briefly to Sgt. Jones. Have you spoken to the people who did the work on her condo?
JONES: I`m quite sure they have. I`m quite sure they talked to anybody, whether it`s personal friends, people that she works with or anybody that may have had a contact with her. And I`m sure, if there`s any of those people that they are interested in, they`re going to certainly continue to look at them. And I`m quite sure there`s people that they have eliminated as people being as persons of interest.
So they have. They`ve been working very hard, numerous detectives, and we`re going to always keep our hope that we`re going to find her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, absolutely. We all, all pray and hope that Jennifer Kesse is found safe and sound. Again, $115,000 reward.
To tonight`s "Case Alert." From pop star to pope star? That`s right, Michael Jackson reportedly wants to set the prayers of the late John Paul II to music. Father Giuseppi Moscati (ph), who organizes Vatican musical events, tells "The New York Daily News" Jackson`s past as a defendant in a child sex abuse case is not a factor because he was acquitted. Jackson`s bid to sing the pope`s prayers comes about a week after Jackson called his father in a rage, saying he was leaving Bahrain for good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW KESSE: I can tell you that she knows that she just has to hang in and people are coming for her. Her father and mother and family are coming for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. What happened to Jennifer Kesse? She`s been missing for two weeks now. A hundred, even at one point more than a thousand people searching for her.
Let`s go straight out to her parents. They are standing by. They have witnessed these searches. What are they accomplishing? What areas are they searching? And how does that bolster you emotionally to have hundreds of people on your side?
DREW KESSE: Jane, it`s unbelievable, touching our heart. The community -- this Orlando community is absolutely fantastic. They should be very proud of themselves. We still need people to call in to the tip line the littlest thing, 1-800-423-TIPS, $115,000 reward. Visit her Web site, Jenniferkesse.com. But we need people to help us again this week and continually look for Jennifer. And our hearts go out to the Orlando community. We thank you, thank you, but we still need your help. Someone knows something. Please, call
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Caryn Stark, psychotherapist, you`re hearing the parents. They have taken action. They`ve set up a Web site. They`re actively involved. How does that help them cope psychologically?
STARK: I can`t think of a better thing for them to do, Jane. In a situation where they have absolutely no control, they are taking the best control that they can. They are doing the Web site. They`re keeping busy. It`s so important for them to keep busy and to believe that it`s something that will help them find their daughter. It`s so wonderful.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And also, there are all these people, right, who are vicariously experiencing the horror of what these parents are going through, for them to take action and go look for her and march -- more than a thousand people, at one point, were marching for her. That also helps, looking through the woods, looking at canals, that kind of thing.
STARK: Well, because we can all relate to it and we all feel like we want to do something, and these people can do something. And I must applaud the parents. It`s wonderful they have the Web site.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK STEIN, KIMBERLY CAMM`S FAMILY ATTORNEY: They`re convinced in their minds, based upon all the facts they witnessed at trial. David Camm did kill these three people. And nothing that happened today, nothing in this appellate decision changed that one bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Tonight, a former law enforcement officer is on trial again, accused of breaking the law in the most vile way: murder. We`re talking triple murder, in fact.
David Camm is being retried for allegedly gunning down his wife and two children. His convictions were overturned in 2004, and he was charged again.
Let`s go straight out to Louisville, Kentucky. We have with us on the phone WHAS Radio reporter Paul Miles to bring us up-to-date on this very complex case.
Paul, as we all , now the crime itself happened almost six years ago. Take us briefly from there to today.
PAUL MILES, REPORTER, WHAS RADIO: It happened exactly on September 28th, 2000, Jane. That`s when Kimberly Camm and her two children, 7-year- old Bradley and 5-year-old Jill, were found shot to death inside the family`s garage, inside their home in Georgetown, Indiana. That`s about 15 miles northwest of Louisville, Kentucky.
David Camm was arrested three days after the murder. He went to trial two years after the murder, in 2002. He was found guilty and was sentenced to 195 years in prison.
Now, two years after his conviction, the convictions were overturned and thrown out by the Indiana Court of Appeals and upheld by the Indiana State Supreme Court.
That was based on evidence, testimony that was admitted during Camm`s first trial, testimony by several women alleging that David Camm was having extramarital affairs. And that was the possible motive that prosecutors presented in this case, that he killed his family to pursue extramarital affairs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, Paul, basically we`re in the re-trial now. That`s the phase that we`re in. And the prosecution is presenting its case.
I`d like to go to straight out to Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, noted forensic scientist, because what I understand right now is that the prosecution is focusing this blood and tissue evidence, essentially saying that eight drops of blood found on David Camm`s t-shirt along with some tissue prove that he was within four feet of his daughter when she was shot.
Can you explain in layman`s terms what their argument is?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes. Yes, Jane. What happens when you fire a gun is the firing pin hits the primer that causes the powder in the shell to explode, and the bullet is propelled out with tremendous velocity. We say that has a lot of kinetic energy.
When that bullet hits its target, the energy gets transferred. And what happens is, is there a back-spatter of blood from the target. That is, it`s kind of like a fine mist. It`s referred to as high-velocity blood spatter.
And these droplets are very, very tiny, averaging about a tenth of a millimeter or even less. And because they`re so small and the density`s so small, they don`t travel very far.
So when they fire back, when they shoot back from the victim to the shooter, toward the gun, they will travel only about two to three feet. And I think we`re being generous when we say four feet.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Doctor. Let`s hear what the prosecutor has to say about this blood evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH HENDERSON, FLOYD COUNTY PROSECUTOR: While she`s up, the blood`s dropped before she has fallen. And as she`s falling, there`s an impact either by her or another object that splashed the blood at a 90-degree angle, from the front to the back of the shoe.
The other possibility, as he said, there`s another foot that hits the blood, her blood, and comes in. He thought that was more unlikely. It cannot be done by his shoe stepping in blood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have with us the brother of the defendant, Donnie Camm.
Thank you for joining us tonight. I know this must be difficult and awkward for you, but we`d like to ask you about this blood evidence. How do you explain the blood on your brother`s t-shirt? What does he say he was doing the night his family was killed?
DONNIE CAMM, DAVID CAMM`S BROTHER: Well, David was playing basketball the night his family was killed, Kim, Brad and Jill, my sister-in-law and my niece and nephew. He was playing basketball. We`ve got 11 alibi witnesses who will testify that David was at the gym from 7:00 until 9:30 or about 9:30 when he got home and found his wife and kids murdered.
When he got home -- he was a state trooper for 11 years. And based on that experience, when he saw Kim, his wife, laying on the garage floor, as he has explained to me and explained many times, he could tell, he`d seen enough people that had died that he could tell that Kim was gone.
He also could tell, from looking at Jill, that there was -- that Jill was gone, as well. And he touched Brad, crawled into the vehicle because Brad was still warm, and retrieved Brad out of the vehicle and tried to perform CPR on him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Donnie, essentially you`re saying the reason he had blood on his t-shirt wasn`t because he killed his family but because he went there and tried to resuscitate them. Let`s hear from the defense and what the defense has to say about this blood evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STACY ULIANA, DAVID CAMM`S ATTORNEY: People can be wrong. This bloodstain pattern analysis, as you can see by how many analysts we have and how many analysts they have, is a extremely subjective interpretation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Apparently the original conviction was overturned by an appeals court because they ruled that they should not have allowed in the numerous alleged affairs that the defendant had. Let`s go to former prosecutor Wendy Murphy.
How is that that should not be included? I mean, it would seem to me -- I`ve seen a lot of cases where the fact that the husband is having an affair is a key because it`s a motive.
MURPHY: Yes, and we sure don`t mind using the victim`s sexual history against her, even if it`s got nothing to do with the case. Look at poor Bonnie Lee Bakley, bad thing she ever did in her life came out. It had nothing to do with the case.
It drives me crazy when, you know, we go overboard to protect against unfair prejudice. All evidence that suggests motive is prejudicial. That`s why you call it evidence against the accused. To call it unfair, I think, is pretty silly.
Let me emphasize something else, by the way, that the court didn`t toss out but did suggest -- and I think does potentially go to the motive in this case -- and that is evidence that this man molested his little girl, Jill, and that appellate court suggested that although that was potentially relevant to why his wife had threatened to leave him, which, by the way, also goes to motive, they questioned whether that might be unfair to use against him, too.
As if a jury can ever figure out the truth in a case like this, when they`re faced with this hideous kind of crime. They look at a guy who used to be a cop, and they`re supposed to get their head around the idea that he would slaughter his own family. Well, yes, he would, if he was having affairs and molesting his kid.
But if the jury isn`t allowed to hear that, you know, these cases can get very difficult. But I think that this blood evidence is very damning, and it`s going to be more than enough to put him away, because he told police during the early stages of the investigation that he didn`t touch the child at all.
Little Jill, whose blood was on his shirt -- and by the way, spatter from her brain matter, too -- all this stuff on his shirt, and he said he never touched her. Oops, now that he has to explain that away, he comes up with a whole new story. The jury`s not going to buy it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have raised a lot of very shocking issues, important issues. And I know that the brother of the defendant wants to comment on that, and I know there`s a defense attorney out there, Lisa Wayne, who wants to comment on that.
And when we come back, we are going to hear from them, because you`ve raised some issues that are really, really controversial. So stay right there. We`re going to get to them in a second.
Meantime, we`re going to go to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Closing arguments today in the case of Rachelle Waterman, Alaskan teen on trial for killing her mom when she was just 16 years old. Waterman told police she knew about the plot to kill her mother, whose body was found in a burned minivan.
But a defense expert testified Waterman may have been overwhelmed with grief and therefore easily manipulated by police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENDERSON: The evidence has not changed. We have high-velocity blood spatter evidence that David Camm was at the scene of the crime when it occurred, specifically within four feet. It belonged to Jill Camm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Did David Camm kill his whole family?
Let`s go straight out to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney. Lisa, you`ve been hearing former prosecutor Wendy Murphy go on and on about how can they possibly not allow in the fact that he allegedly had affairs with numerous women, prosecutors say up to 15 women they spoke with. How, as a defense attorney, do you defend keeping that information out when it goes to motive?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me tell you, I think that exactly what Wendy Murphy did in muddying the waters and making him look like a bad guy is why the Indiana Court of Appeals overturned this case.
The bottom line is, the law is you can be a bad guy, you can be a philanderer, but those aren`t considerations that we take into consideration when trying to convict someone of a heinous crime like this. You don`t muddy the waters.
They say you need evidence, credible evidence. And what Wendy Murphy did is what a lot of prosecutors like to do, muddy the waters. This is a case about blood splatter. And the defense in this case he`s innocent and we`re going to dismantle their evidence by showing you that blood splatter is like a lot of these non- or unscientific theories out there, and we`re going to show you -- it`s voodoo -- and we`re going to show you...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, I can`t see you, but I know you`re chomping at the bit to respond.
WAYNE: Of course she is, because that`s what this case is about.
MURPHY: No, but Lisa is doing exactly what she should do as a defense attorney, saying that any evidence I might have to suggest this guy had a motive is, in fact, muddying the water. I call that helping to clarify the truth.
You know, this elucidates the truth when we find out whether this is the type of person who might have done this act when a guy like this gets to stand up in court and say, "I`m not the type who kills his whole family. I`m a cop. I`m a nice boy."
And then to rebut that, prosecutors have to be able to say, "Au contraire, he`s not the kind of nice guy." So get over that, what I call feel-good prejudice in a case like this.
It`s not unfair. It`s essential. It`s essential because he wants to take advantage of this myth that he`s a nice guy who does no wrong, yet we got molestation, 15 other women. The jury needs to hear that so that they don`t get duped into voting not guilty.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me go to the defendant`s brother, Donnie Camm, because some very serious allegations have been raised, and we want you to be able to give your brother`s side of the story in all of that, especially this talk of a possible molestation within the family.
CAMM: First of all, I`d like to -- there`s three points I`d like to address that the prosecutor just brought up.
First of all, there were no ongoing sexual affairs. David had a past that was all history. There was absolutely no evidence that there was an affair going on. That goes years back. So that`s just -- it didn`t happen. He was not having an affair. Kim and Dave were doing as well as they ever had.
Secondly, the sexual molestation is unfounded, as well. We will agree that something happened to Jill. And what happened to Jill happened when she was murdered, and it did not happen prior to that.
We know that Jill had a normal day. The state`s own experts say that Jill`s injuries were so severe, she would have been in tears, she would have been crying, she would have been injured severely.
She went to dance. She had a normal day at school. The person that did this is Charles Boney, who`s been convicted, who our family -- without our family`s efforts, this guy would not have been found. Charles Boney did whatever happened to Jill because we know she had a normal day and the state`s own experts say her injuries were so severe she could have not functioned normally.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, Donnie, let me jump in here and bring back Paul Miles, the reporter who`s been covering this case, because Charles Boney is another complicated wrinkle. Where does he come in? Because I understand that he have a criminal record. He`s recently been convicted in connection with this case, but not as the triggerman?
MILES: That`s correct, Jane. Charles Boney, no one knew about this guy until last year. And that`s when investigators finally got around to testing some DNA and a palm print found at the crime scene. It turned out it was linked to Charles Boney, an ex-convict who was released from prison just three months before the murders occurred in 2000.
Boney, there was a sweatshirt found at the crime scene with DNA, his DNA on it. There was a palm print found on the Ford Bronco that was in the garage that belonged to Charles Boney.
He was brought in, questioned. He fessed up, sort of. He told investigators, "Yes, I sold David Camm a gun, a clean gun that couldn`t be traced, and I delivered it to him. I was there the night of the murders."
But Boney says he didn`t know David Camm was going to kill his family and he -- that was his defense. He was convicted just last month though with three counts of murder and conspiracy. But he`s still, to this day, pointing the finger at David Camm.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, Wendy Murphy, wouldn`t it be ironic if he ends up being the only one convicted, even though he isn`t even being accused of being the triggerman, because this evidence is not being allowed in, in the re-trial?
MURPHY: You know, I think it would be an outrage because, although that man may well deserve some punishment, you know, again, this kind of prejudicial idea we have about what a killer looks like, that he`s a scary criminal type, go back to Lisa`s point.
It`s not right to convict someone because we think they look icky or they have a bad past. And that`s exactly what Camm`s family is doing about this guy, saying, you know, he wasn`t a really nice guy so let`s just toss everything on him.
What he did, which is more noble than what Camm did, was at least accept responsibility for having sold Camm the gun. You know, the evidence shows that these two met some years earlier, that they knew each other from some basketball things they were doing together.
And he, at least, had the guts to say: OK, I gave him a gun. I heard something that sounded like a gun went off, but I was out of there.
And for them to now say on this program that he raped or molested that little girl without one iota of evidence to suggest that man touched that child, I just think it`s unconscionable. Look, he`s entitled to a defense and a fair trial, but there`s no such thing as defense at any cost. And you don`t falsely accuse even a guy like Boney of raping a child when you know it`s a lie.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Donnie Camm, giving you an opportunity to respond.
CAMM: It`s unconscionable what Wendy is saying. She doesn`t know the case. There`s absolutely no connection between Charles Boney and my brother. The state police have testified that they cannot find a connection between Charles Boney and my brother.
It doesn`t exist. No cell phone records, no phone records. No one ever saw them together. No one ever saw them playing basketball together. She`s wrong. She does not know the facts of the case.
She`s being a typical prosecutor. She`s taking everything and blowing it out of perspective. And she`s going on innuendo and things she`s heard. She does not know this case like I know this case, and she is absolutely wrong. And we are not -- we know that Charles Boney was there. It`s his DNA, and we have 11 alibi witnesses.
MURPHY: What evidence do you have that he raped that little girl? And if you have no answer for that, I`ll take it that you`re conceding your lie.
CAMM: Just let me respond. Something happened to Jill. The evidence is that Jill was perfectly fine all day long and every day leading up until when she was killed. The prosecution`s own expert testified that her injuries were so severe that she would not have been able to function normally. The only person that saw Jill Camm before she died and had an opportunity to do anything to her was Charles Boney.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m going to have to stop it right there.
MURPHY: That`s sufficient evidence to prove he raped her? You should be ashamed of yourself.
CAMM: You`re wrong! You don`t know what you`re talking about, Wendy!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would love to continue this debate, but we have to go to a break. I can say one thing: Imagine the poor family of Kimberly having to put up with this for a second time during the re-trial. What an exhausting ordeal.
Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Claudio Gutierrez Cruz, wanted in connection with the 2005 North Carolina murder of Francisco Lopez Batista (ph).
Gutierrez, 38, 5`4", 135 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have any information, call the FBI at 704-377-9200.
Local news is next for some of you. We will all be right back. And remember, live coverage of a now 16-year-old New Mexico young man on trial for the shooting deaths of his family, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Stay with us, as we remember Army Sergeant Joshua Johnson, just 24 years old, a real American hero.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.
Tonight, take a look at 12-year-old Ameika Moore, last seen in Peoria, Illinois, January 21st. If you have any information on Ameika Moore, please, please call Peoria Police Department at 309-673-4521 or go to BeyondMissing.com.
Once again, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. We`re talking about whether David Camm did it or not. Did he kill his family?
Let`s go to psychotherapist Caryn Stark and your analysis of affairs - - we`ve been hearing this heated debate -- and the likelihood that it may point to guilt on the part of the defendant.
STARK: Well, where would the Peterson trial be if you couldn`t bring in affairs and all that was going on there, Jane? Clearly, affairs are important to bring into this; however, that doesn`t mean that someone is a murder, but certainly it shows that they don`t have a very trustworthy character, that they`re not really believing their marriage is sacred, that they`re not committed, even if it`s not happening right now. So you do want to bring it in and see what that`s all about.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go back out to Paul Miles, a reporter covering this case. What`s next? We`re wrapping up. We only with a minute. What`s the defense strategy going to be here?
MILES: The defense strategy, they`ll bring their own testimony in from their own forensic experts who will say, you know what, these blood splatter experts that were brought in by the prosecution really didn`t know what they were talking about.
Then they will bring in the dozen witnesses who say that David Camm was playing basketball with them when the murders occurred. There was no way in the word he could have left that church gym, gone home, murdered his family and come back to play basketball.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have just a couple of seconds, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky. Kind of a yes or no, is the blood splatter evidence going to work for the prosecution or not? What do you think?
KOBILINSKY: It sure will, absolutely. It`s real science. It`s not art. It`s physics. It`s mathematics, and it will make a big difference in the case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, once again, very briefly, the family having to go through watching this again. What a nightmare, huh?
STARK: Well, they get re-traumatized, Jane. It happens all over again. It really is horrific.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you so much.
We want to thank all of our guests tonight, and thanks to you at home for helping us track these very important cases. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell sitting in for Nancy Grace. We hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, have a great evening. Bye.