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Nancy Grace

Search for Missing 24-Year-Old Continues

Aired February 17, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, help us find a 24-year-old Florida girl, Jennifer Kesse. Kesse vanished over three weeks ago. What clues will Kesse`s car and a surveillance photograph give investigators?
And tonight: A cold case, or is it? Twenty years ago today, a boy murdered, simply riding his bike. At random? Or was it? Twenty years later, can we crack the case of 13-year-old Chuckie Mauk?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: Twenty years ago today, a beautiful Georgia boy, 13-year-old Chuckie Mauk, doing what boys do all over America, riding his bike to the 7-Eleven for bubblegum, Chuckie shot dead on his little bicycle. And tonight, two decades later, we are looking to crack a so-called cold case. Won`t you help us?

Plus: Finally, courtroom action the Natalee Holloway case.

First, thought, tonight we search for clues in the desperate hunt for this 24-year-old Florida girl, Jennifer Kesse, Kesse reported missing three weeks ago when she failed to show up at her job as a financial analyst.


DREW KESSE, MISSING WOMAN`S FATHER: My personal gut feeling is she got ready to go to work, as normal. And, as soon as that condominium door closed, I don`t know what happened from that point.

JOYCE KESSE, MISSING WOMAN`S MOTHER: She`s just a beautiful, caring, thoughtful, kind person. This whole thing has just been one hellish nightmare.

ST. BARBARA JONES, ORLANDO POLICE PIO: We did obtain some video surveillance at the condominium where her vehicle was found, and that surveillance video depicted a picture of a pedestrian which we`re classifying as a person of interest.


GRACE: Straight out to investigative reporter Pat Lalama. Pat, what is happening in the Kesse case?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, don`t forget that videotape that you just heard about. That is the thing that the magnifying glass is on right now, the one and only big hope that cops have. We`re hoping to get more details about that person on the grainy footage.

The other thing is a bit of a stumbling block because local police ended up finding out that a lot of the tips they got -- and they`re getting dozens, trust me -- were leading to a known prostitute in the area, who was doubled Jennifer, except that our Jennifer has a cleft chin, and it wasn`t the right person. So at this point, it`s one of those amazing vanishing acts that we just cannot explain.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true this alleged prostitute in the area also goes by the name Jennifer?

LALAMA: Jennifer. Yes, I mean, you know, it`s almost to hard to believe. But you know, I think the cops have even mentioned that if Jennifer or any of her, you know, friends and family would have come forward and say, Look, it`s -- you know, it`s not me, please help find, you know, this other woman, this young woman, you know, they`d be happy to give her that kind of forum.

I mean, this is just one of those, poof, she`s gone. And you know, her father believes very, very firmly that it wasn`t -- it didn`t happen at night, that she actually left on that Tuesday morning to go to work, and that that`s when this deviant behavior, I`m sure it was, happened and that she fell victim to.

GRACE: Pat, what can you tell me about a raid, an unsuccessful police raid?

LALAMA: Well, you know, cops are really hot on the trail of this because they got a tip. They met with the tipster, and they were just in a flurry to get to this sort of like a boardinghouse, where they really thought that they were going to find her. They got there, there were six people there. But you know what? She wasn`t. And it just -- that tip just -- poof, it vanished, as well.

GRACE: Here is what police have to say.


JONES: We established a timeline of Monday, when she last talked to Rob, which was about 10:00 PM, to Thursday at around 8:06, when a resident of that condominium complex located her car. So that`s about a 58-hour window.

We did obtain some video surveillance at the condominiums, where her vehicle was found. And that surveillance video depicted a picture of a pedestrian which we`re classifying as a person of interest.

The day that we located her car, we did a door-to-door knock and talk. We also did a track with some bloodhounds from her car, which led back to the condominium where she lived, which was about a mile away. What we did with that is, we created a three to five-mile radius around that track, and we`ve done numerous grid searches in wooded, isolated areas where, if somebody was trying to hide something related to this case, we would be able to find it in those particular areas.


GRACE: Joining us right now, a very special guest on the Kesse disappearance, Drew and Joyce Kesse. These are Jennifer`s parents joining us tonight, speaking out. Welcome to the Kesses. First to Drew. Why are you so convinced about the time she disappeared.

DREW KESSE: Just -- when we arrived at her condominium, everything was totally in place. Actually, it looked like a maid had just come in. The things she would have taken to work were gone. Just generally, it looked she got up and got ready to go to work, which I truly believe. And as soon as the door closed...

JOYCE KESSE: It`s a mystery.

DREW KESSE: That`s it.

GRACE: To Mrs. Kesse, Joyce Kesse. This is Jennifer`s mom. Again, thank you for being with us.

JOYCE KESSE: Thanks for having me.

GRACE: Joyce, I agree with him. You know, you can tell, when you know someone, what they take to work with them, like, what shoes they wear every day, their pocketbook, their cell phone, how do they leave the house. Do they leave the Crock-Pot on? Had they already brought the newspaper in? Did you look and do you agree with your husband that she was there up to that morning?

JOYCE KESSE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And our son does, too, because, you know, her towel was wet. Her shower was still wet. I mean, we arrived at her condominium, it was about 3:00 in the afternoon, and it was kind of -- you know, Jennifer was just home at Christmas. It was typical Jen, getting ready, rushed in the morning. You know, the make-up was out on the counter, the hair dryer, a couple outfits laying on the bed. And that`s why we are confident that she got ready to go to work, locked that condominium door, and from there, we have absolutely no idea what happened.

GRACE: Mrs. Kesse, no sign of a struggle in the home, correct?


GRACE: No forced entry.


GRACE: Door locked.

JOYCE KESSE: Door locked.

GRACE: Windows locked?

JOYCE KESSE: Windows locked.

GRACE: OK. So this happened after she leaves that morning. And her car is found where, Mrs. Kesse?

JOYCE KESSE: The car was found Thursday. She was abducted Tuesday. The car was found Thursday, about a mile from her condominium complex in an area of town that, honestly, she would never go to. And now that it`s common knowledge, I can share, there was no sign of trauma in the vehicle whatsoever.

GRACE: So what I`m hearing from you -- I`m interpreting -- is you think that she never would have gone to that part of town...


GRACE: I`m taking Ellie -- what kind of -- what is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve heard it`s more of a rundown neighborhood, definitely not as nice a neighborhood as where Jennifer lived.



DREW KESSE: Also, it was off the track of going to work.

GRACE: Ah! Important. So what that says to me -- let`s go out to Sgt. Rich Ring with the Orlando Police Department -- is that somebody got into that car when she was trying to get into that car, maybe carjacked her, if she -- maybe forced her to go to that location or took the car to that location themselves. But if they wanted the car, why would they only drive it a mile and leave it, Sergeant?

SGT. RICH RING, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Right now, that`s the -- that`s one of our stumbling blocks. We cannot determine, based on the information we have, why that occurred. The -- we`ve also left open the timeframe a little bit wider than the Kesses regarding the time that Jennifer could have been abducted.

GRACE: Do you have her cell phone records?

RING: Yes, ma`am. We`ve done all the -- just like any other law enforcement agency would do, we`ve checked all the personal records of Jennifer.

GRACE: When do they say she was last on her cell phone?

RING: Excuse me?

GRACE: When was she last on her cell phone?

RING: I believe was at 21:56 on Monday night.

GRACE: Now, why are you talking like that?

RING: I`m sorry!

GRACE: I got to sit here...

RING: It was 9:56.


GRACE: OK. So she was on her phone that night, not on her cell phone that morning. How about incoming and outgoing calls at home, from her home phone?

RING: That`s -- you know, we`ve reviewed those, and we`re just kind of keeping that to ourselves as to what that information actually is.

GRACE: OK. So let me get this straight. You`ve got a bigger window? You said a bigger or more narrow window of when she disappeared?

RING: Yes, we have a larger window that we`re trying to keep open.

GRACE: What do you mean by that, that she may have been taken earlier?

RING: There -- we are -- we are still entertaining the possibility that she may have been taken sometime in the evening hours on Monday.

GRACE: But why would her shower still be wet?

RING: That -- there`s a bunch of factors that can attribute that. And scientifically -- unless we can eliminate those scientifically, we`re going to keep an open mind in the investigation.

GRACE: OK. Now, listen, I`ve put up a lot of scientific evidence to juries before, but I don`t see what`s so scientific about a wet shower. What science are you talking about?

RING: What I`m trying to explain is that I am not certain, by the time the police got there and the Kesses got there, the actual amount of water that was in the shower. And without us being able to get more information about that, it would harm the investigation for us to pinpoint specifically one time.


RING: It`d be too narrow-minded.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I really -- I respect that. Why limit the time?

But I want to go back to the Kesses, to Drew Kesse. Drew, explain to me -- you know what`s funny -- funny, odd -- that sometimes a fact this small, this seemingly unimportant, could make such a big difference in the case. For instance, if you`re right that she was there that morning to take a shower and go to work, then that could totally rule out this guy walking along the sidewalk at a certain time. On the other hand, if you`re wrong, it makes such a huge difference.

Now, tell me what did you see in the shower?

DREW KESSE: Well, first of all, let me make it perfectly clear that it`s our gut feeling. We`re not scientists, or what have you. It`s just a gut feeling we have. But it just looked like she got up and got ready to go to work, as any other day she would get up and get ready to go to work to us. I would like to leave the timeframe open, but that`s just my gut feeling of what happened.

GRACE: OK. Let me ask the mom a couple of questions. Joyce, when you say there were outfits laid out on the bed, were they work outfits or were they jeans and a top?

JOYCE KESSE: Oh, no, they were work outfits.

GRACE: Work outfits. OK. And in the bathroom, did it look like she had taken a shower, or had the faucet just been dripping and it was still wet?

JOYCE KESSE: No. There was water -- you know how when you splash it on, like, where you`d keep your shampoo, that sort of thing? There was water there, and as I said, her towel was damp.

GRACE: Ah! OK. And was the bathroom door open or shut? Joyce?

JOYCE KESSE: It was open when we got there, but you know, our son was the first one in the condo.

GRACE: The reason I ask, because if it had been shut, it may have kept the towel from drying out. I know these are small facts...


GRACE: ... Ed Miller, joining us today, special guest from "America`s Most Wanted." I know they`re small facts, but this is how cases are built. This is how timelines are established. What can you tell us? I mentioned this video enhancement, this photo. Where did it come from? What is it? What can you tell us?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, we can certainly tell you that the video may become the most important piece of evidence in this case. And I certainly wouldn`t want to say anything to impede the investigation, but we know for a fact that the FBI sent a special team of investigators down to analyze the placement of the surveillance camera in relation to the photo, so they could figure out how tall this person of interest may be.

Sources tell us that this may very well be more than a person of interest, that this person caught on tape in this picture may very well become the suspect. Again, I`m not going to say anything that`s going to impede the investigation or could possibly impede the investigation, but it could even be a woman because of the height. The height is going to become very, very important when they eventually...

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

E. MILLER: .release that information.

GRACE: Something important. Ed Miller with us from "America`s Most Wanted."

Very quickly, to a high-profile criminal profiler that helps us here on the show quite often, Pat Brown. Pat, very quickly. We`ve only got 30 seconds left before break. How do you establish height and weight from a photo?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, you`re going to be looking at what`s in the vicinity, Nancy, to match it to. But I don`t put a lot of hope in this particular video because we don`t know when it was taken. We don`t -- we don`t, obviously, have a picture of when the vehicle was dumped there. So does this have any meeting? I really doubt it. I think this is really going to go nowhere, this piece of video. I think the most important thing is the rest of it, where she was taken from. That`s the important point.



JOYCE KESSE: She`s just a beautiful, caring, thoughtful, kind person, has a lot going for her, has always been someone to reach for the stars, and for the most part, she`s always grabbed hold of them. And this whole thing has just been one hellish nightmare.

DREW KESSE: Jennifer, I am going to find you! So you stay, be smart, and I will find you. We will find you. We love you. You know that. And we`ll find you.


GRACE: Tonight`s show is about parents who never give up. Won`t you help us? Right now, we`re talking about 24-year-old Jennifer Kesse, tip line 1-800-423-TIPS, $115,000 reward. This girl`s only been missing three weeks.

Here in the studio with me, psychotherapist Lauren Howard. What`s your take?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, it`s inconsistent that this girl had anything going on in her life that presents some untoward people. The thing that I keep going back to is she had mentioned both to her boyfriend and to her father that she had been living in this new condo that she had bought with her own money, and it was not fully inhabited. And there were a lot of workmen around, and it was sort of giving her creeps. She felt a little uncomfortable. And so I`m curious about who the -- you know, who are the people that are working in that building. She had a gut feeling that she mentioned to both her dad and her boyfriend.

GRACE: And of course, you can`t discount those gut feelings, those sixth senses. Renee Rockwell, how many cases have you and I handled where a victim`s sixth sense, so to speak, was, in fact, the solution to the case?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, and the fact that she mentioned it, it`s just going to basically be a situation where they`re going to have to start investigating people and go in larger and larger circles, investigating people that she may have come in contact with that morning, when she was on her way to work.

GRACE: Well, and another issue -- to Joe Lawless. Just as Lauren Howard has said, she actually voiced to her family this brand-new condo that`s not fully inhabited, there are a lot of construction workers around here, I don`t really like that. She goes missing. I mean, there`s an obvious clue. And Joe Lawless, another issue, speaking of forensics, about the FBI trying to enhance this video -- I`ve had to use audio enhancements, oh, yes, and I`ve had to use an ATM photo, FBI enhancement. Have you used them?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve used them, Nancy, and I`ve found that they`re only as good as the angle of the camera. If you have a grainy shot of the top of a hat and somebody`s nose, all you`re going to get is a sharper shot of the grainy hat and the person`s nose. A lot of it`s going to depend upon the angle.

But I agree with you about this construction worker angle. I think they have to go back, find out what crews were there on what day and interview every one of them. You ought to just not leave any stone unturned here.

GRACE: And to Sgt. Rich Ring, joining us from Orlando Police Department -- very quickly, before we run out of time to go to break, Sergeant, when was the video? When was that picture?

RING: That picture was very close to the time that the vehicle was dropped off at the apartment complex.

GRACE: Ah! So the time is very relevant. Now, let me ask you this. Lauren Howard was asking off camera regarding the car. It obviously has been processed. If someone else drove it you, would have fingerprints. Yes, no.

RING: We have processed the car. We cannot comment on what we gathered from the car.

GRACE: Did there as if there had been a struggle in the car?

RING: That, again, we cannot comment on.

GRACE: You`re really not helping, Sergeant!


RING: I`m terribly sorry. I can`t talk about evidentiary...

GRACE: OK, what can you tell us so we can help you?

RING: Basically, what we are trying to do is -- the person of interest photo, we`re trying to leave that to the public`s perception. Please don`t be limited by whether it`s a male or female. If you think you know the person, call us.

GRACE: All I can think is a foot, Sergeant. I mean, do you think it`s a man or a woman?

RING: Again, I`m trying to keep my thoughts out of it because there may be somebody that knows who it is, and if it`s a woman and I say it`s a man, they may not call us.

GRACE: OK. OK. Good point.

Everyone take a look at this. This was taken very soon after Jennifer`s car was found abandoned. Please help us.



DREW KESSE: I can tell you that she knows that she just has to hang in and people are coming for her. Her father and mother and family are coming for her.

JOYCE KESSE: The hole in our heart gets bigger, but we have to be strong for Jennifer.


GRACE: Twenty-four-year-old Jennifer Kesse still missing tonight out of Orlando, Florida. Tip line 1-800-423-TIPS.

Straight back to "America`s Most Wanted" Ed Miller. Ed, very quickly, I have heard that a bloodhound has tracked whoever was in that car back to her condo. What do you know about that?

E. MILLER: Yes. You know what`s really very important about this is that a bloodhound cannot tell you which way the scent goes. It`s not like a cartoon where the bloodhound points this way. He only -- in other words, he can`t tell you where it starts and stops. So yes, there is scent from her condo to the car, but you don`t know which direction. And so in other words...

GRACE: Well, how do we know...

E. MILLER: . we don`t know that he went back

GRACE: ... it`s not her scent? How do we know he`s not picking up the smell of Jennifer?

E. MILLER: That is exactly what the bloodhound is picking up. He`s picking up the scent of Jennifer.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. I thought -- OK, I see. The bloodhound picked up the scent of whoever abandoned the car, and you`re saying that could be Jennifer, not the kidnapper.

E. MILLER: In other words, the bloodhound picked up Jennifer`s scent, if I understand this correctly, as well as another scent. But they cannot tell you which way that scent goes. In other words, we don`t know if he went this way...

GRACE: I understand.

E. MILLER: . or that way.

GRACE: Gotcha. To the Kesses, Jennifer`s parents joining us tonight. To Mr. Kesse. Final thought?

DREW KESSE: Yes, we`d like to call on the community, an incredible community that they have in Orlando, but we need a huge favor. We need you to take a look at that picture. We know that it might be the most difficult thing that you have to do, to make a call. It may be a loved one of yours that`s in that picture. But we need to speak to this person to try and get our daughter back. And even more importantly is, we still have an abductor out in your community here in Orlando, and it may happen to your child next. So please...


DREW KESSE: ... just take the time to take a look at the picture. We know it`s difficult if you do know the person. But please call the police or tip line. It is our flesh and blood. We love her. Someone has taken her from us. And we want her back now.


GRACE: Mrs. Kesse?

JOYCE KESSE: Again, search your soul. Show some remorse. Somebody knows something, and that`s all we`re begging for. Somebody knows something about this case, whether it`s the person of interest or somebody who`s acting differently. But please, please, for the love of God, call and -- and share whatever information you have.

DREW KESSE: And Nancy, the police have been phenomenal in this case. They are non-stop. They are so dedicated. And they are going to find our daughter, with our help.

GRACE: OK. With us tonight, Jennifer`s parents. Please help them.

And also take a look at 18-year-old Heather Wilkins, last seen in Livingston, Montana, January 2006. If you have info, 406-823-6025, or go on line,



CATHY MILLER, CHUCKIE MAUK`S MOTHER: He had just gone up to the store to get some gum for school the next day, and he was on his way home and something happened. One of his friends came and got my husband and I and told us that Chuck was hurt.

We ran up there, and that`s when we found Chuckie. He was laying by his bicycle facedown under a streetlight.

GRACE: Oh, my god.

C. MILLER: That was my last vision of Chuck.


GRACE: Tonight, a case that is near and dear to my heart, a 20-year- old so-called cold case. I don`t believe that. I don`t accept that.

A little boy -- this happens all over the country every day -- rides his bicycle, a rural area -- you don`t think anything`s going to happen -- to the local corner store. An adult man in a vehicle guns the boy down.

Why? What happened 20 years ago to Chuckie Mauk?

To investigative reporter Pat Lalama, where does the case stand and what happened?

LALAMA: Boy, I wish I knew. I mean, this to me is absolutely amazing. I mean, you`re talking about daylight.

My understanding is that the boy, Chuckie, actually spoke to the man in the car, some witnesses say, 10 to 15 minutes. That`s where we have to hone in. Who was that person? Did anybody get any information about that description?

GRACE: Wait, wait. Pat, the boy outside, the perpetrator inside, or did the boy get into the car?

LALAMA: My understanding is he did not get into the car but he was speaking to him...


LALAMA: ... while he was outside the car.

GRACE: So obviously the man tried to speak to him.

Harry Enckler is with us. He is the original investigator on this case. We found him. He has now moved out of state.

Sir, thank you for being with us. Explain your knowledge of what happened when Chuckie was shot.

HARRY ENCKLER, ORIGINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, the best we know, that he was talking to a white male in a white car anywhere from 12 to 15 minutes and apparently he turned to leave on his bicycle and he was shot, shot in the back of the head and killed instantly.

GRACE: What was the area like where Chuckie was?

ENCKLER: Well, it was a hangout for the youth. There was a bowling alley and some type of church service for the youth to go to. And it didn`t happen in daylight; it happened at night, around 8:00, 8:30 at night.

GRACE: Question. I think she got that, because it was a very well- lit area. There was a big light right over where this happened.

You`re taking a look at a little boy, Chuckie Mauk, who was killed 20 years ago.

Back to the original investigator, Harry Enckler, what can you tell me about the person of interest?

ENCKLER: Well...

GRACE: OK, let me just do this. Was he white?

ENCKLER: Yes, he was.

GRACE: What color hair?


GRACE: Did he have facial hair, moustache, a beard?

ENCKLER: There was some -- two of the people talked about a moustache, and some of them said he just had marks on his face, like acne or stuff like that.

GRACE: OK. Do you think he was a transient? This is Warner Robins, Georgia. It is one of the biggest air force bases in the country. What about the car? Do you think this guy lived there or was he a transient?

ENCKLER: I believed he lived in Warner Robins.

GRACE: Why do you think that?

ENCKLER: The area that it happened in, it was away from everything, really. It wasn`t in the main part of Warner Robins.

GRACE: That`s a very interesting point, more off the beaten path. In fact, after meeting Chuckie`s parents, I have gone back myself to this particular location there in Warner Robins, Georgia.

Speaking of the parents, joining me right now is Cathy Miller, Chuckie`s mother. Cathy, thank you for being with us again.

C. MILLER: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you.

GRACE: Do you think there are any new leads in the case, Cathy?

C. MILLER: No. I don`t. If there are, I`ve not heard of them.

GRACE: Today is the 20-year mark of this boy`s disappearance. Won`t you help us? The tip-line: 478-542-2085. There is a $5,000 reward to help solve this cold case. Somebody knows what happened.

Back to Harry Enckler, the original investigator on the case, white male, brown hair, likely a moustache. Given the type of car, how tall do you think the white male was, Harry?

ENCKLER: Probably around six foot.

GRACE: Around six foot. Did anyone in that area move out soon after?

ENCKLER: No, not that we`re aware of, no.

GRACE: Did you canvas the neighborhoods at that time?

ENCKLER: Oh, yes.

GRACE: To Cathy Miller -- this is Chuckie`s mother -- at the time, what did police do to try to solve this case?

C. MILLER: Well, we were interviewed extensively. I know they interviewed many of his friends. They brought in psychologists from Quantico, Virginia. And it was an extensive investigation, as far as I know.

GRACE: Here is what the investigator had to say.


CAPTAIN ROBERT CLARK, HEADS INVESTIGATION OF CHUCKIE MAUK`S MURDER: We know from witnesses that Chuck was on his bicycle, that he talked to someone in a white vehicle, possibly an Oldsmobile, for somewhere between maybe 10 and 15 minutes. And this took place between his home and the little store where he had bought the gum at.

As some people that were walking through the neighborhood heard a gunshot, they looked up. That vehicle was leaving, and they discovered Chuck on the ground.


GRACE: Let`s go to high-profile criminal profiler Pat Brown. Pat, what could possibly be the motive for shooting a little boy like this on his bicycle? He just went to go get bubblegum. He still had the gum in his mouth.

BROWN: I tell you, it really makes no sense, Nancy. I mean, the fact that there`s witnesses that say he was talking to the man for 10 or 15 minutes, that`s confusing in itself.

Like, who were these witnesses? Why were they standing there nearby watching him talk to this man and nothing else was noticed? That is peculiar itself. It makes me wonder about the witnesses.

Do we have enough of them to prove that the witnesses are actually telling the truth? That`s one of the questions.

But other than him being -- you know, somehow knowing this guy who killed him, I mean, we`re talking about a total nutcase. And it makes no sense.

GRACE: Well, Pat, have you considered the angle that he was approached by a sexual predator

BROWN: Not really, because mostly sexual predators aren`t going to pull up where they see other people around, if there are these witnesses watching him talk for 10 to 15 minutes. And they`re not saying the man tried to grab him, pull him into the car. The man didn`t get out of the car. He just talked to him and said, what, "You`re not going with me," and shot him? That really does not make any sense.

GRACE: Joe Lawless, weigh in.

LAWLESS: What they`ve got to do, Nancy, here more than anything else is just go back and start from square one. They`ve got to go back and start re-interviewing people. They`ve got to let this person of interest know that the interest on their part hasn`t died and he`s either going to have a pang of conscience or he`s going to make a mistake, and then that`s when you`re going to get him.

GRACE: Well, forget about a pang of conscience, Joe Lawless. For heaven`s sake, you`re a defense attorney.

LAWLESS: People change over 20 years.

GRACE: How many times do you have clients break down and confess?

LAWLESS: We don`t know -- well, after 20 years of living with this, we don`t know. But what the person has to know is that the investigators are out there and they`re digging again.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Harry Enckler, yes, no, did anyone actually see the shooting, Harry?


GRACE: Did anybody see the shooting?


GRACE: Did anyone see Chuckie in that parking lot?

ENCKLER: Let me explain this. The witnesses that saw Chuckie talking to this white male were all passing by in vehicles.


ENCKLER: So it wasn`t people standing. This happened in an isolated part of the parking lot. And it`s between the buildings, and it was a restaurant there. It`s no longer there.

And there was four or five people come by that saw him, and there was a person that worked in the restaurant that stepped out back and saw this vehicle leave.



C. MILLER: I think of all the possibilities that he had. I see his friends now, and they`re married and they have children. And Chuckie missed out on that. I missed out on that. We all missed out on that.

And the possibilities of what he could have done or what he could have been were just endless. He was a wonderful 13-year-old boy who was full of life and had these incredible blue eyes. And I think about him every day.


GRACE: Especially today. Tonight is the 20-year mark when this little boy, just 13, riding his bike was gunned down at random by an unknown white male, moustache, white Oldsmobile, Warner Robins, Georgia, 20 years ago.

Very quickly to criminal profiler Pat Brown, what about the area? How does that change the equation, a very big air force base?

BROWN: Well, actually what changes the equation, Nancy, is what the detective just told us. Before I thought we had witnesses watching the area for 15 minutes standing around and seeing this man. But we didn`t. We actually have people just going by on the highway seeing this man talking to the boy.

That`s a big difference. This does put it into a sexual predator category, because through his eyes, what he`s looking for is a window of opportunity. He`s standing there talking to this boy, the target. He sees people going by. He`s waiting, he`s waiting, he`s waiting until there`s all of sudden nobody there.

He goes to grab the boy, gun to head. I think Chuckie resisted, and he got shot in the process. Yes, it is a sexual predator. Absolutely. And the air force base being nearby, there`s an opportunity for a lot of them to be in the vicinity, yes.

GRACE: Pat, I just knew it.

To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, psychologically what`s your take?

HOWARD: Well, you know, what Pat`s saying is exactly right. The real issue here though is a person who does this, a sexual predator, it`s a compulsion. He did it again. What you want to look at is other people who have committed like crimes.

GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell, what will it take to crack this case?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I had occasion to speak with Ms. Miller, Chuckie`s mom. And during this time, that was when the Wayne Williams incident was going on in Atlanta. Chuckie was not the kind of boy that would have sat there for 15 minutes and spoken with somebody that he did not know.

She was very convinced that he must have known this person. So, Nancy, somebody knows something, and it`s going to be something thinking with any small clue to come forward.

GRACE: And our sources tell us a white male did move out of the neighborhood almost immediately after Chuckie Mauk was killed. And, also, if this is a sex predator, believe you me he is still preying on children right now.

To Chuckie`s mother, Cathy Miller, Cathy, I know you want to speak out to the public tonight. Go ahead.

C. MILLER: Well, what I`d like to say is, if anyone knows anything, if they saw anything that night, or whoever did it is out there and hears my words, if they would please come forward, put an end to this.

It has to be hard on them, keeping this to themselves this long. If it does not bother them, then God have mercy on his soul, is all I can say.

GRACE: Ms. Miller, how do you get through a day like today, the 20- year mark of Chuckie`s death, his murder?

C. MILLER: That`s a good question, Nancy. I don`t know. I just take it day by day, as I`m feeling. I just kind of do what I feel like I need to do.

Every day is hard, but this is -- for some reason, this 20th has been extremely hard for me, this year. It`s been 20 years, but to me it was like yesterday. It`s just a moment since I`ve seen him, since he walked out the door. And I just go on, and that`s how I survive.

GRACE: Ms. Miller, thank you for being with us.

C. MILLER: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you for all your help.

GRACE: Liz, let`s show that tip-line one more time. There`s a $5,000 reward for any information about this boy. Don`t turn away. Help us solve a so-called cold case.

Another so-called cold case still hot on the camera, a new development in the Natalee Holloway case -- Eric?

ERIC MARRAPODI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, we brought you this story late last night. A lawsuit has been filed in the state Supreme Court of New York. It is a civil suit brought by Natalee Holloway`s parents again Joran Van Der Sloot and his father, Paulus Van Der Sloot.

Here`s how it went down. ABC had set up an exclusive interview with Joran and his parents to be filmed here in New York. Joran flew in from Amsterdam. Now, attorneys for Beth Holloway Twitty and Dave Holloway had an investigator on that flight coming from Amsterdam to New York City with Joran.

As they landed...

GRACE: What is he doing in New York? Isn`t he supposed to be studying and keeping a low profile? What, is he going to see Broadway plays, seeing the Empire State Building?

MARRAPODI: Well, that`s a question we posed to the producers.

GRACE: They couldn`t get out and help find Natalee the day after she goes missing, but they can come to New York and sightsee?

MARRAPODI: You know, this is the second interview with the Van Der Sloot parents in recent months. You know, right after the Super Bowl, the Van Der Sloots appeared on ABC`s program "Good Morning America" to talk about...

GRACE: Themselves.

MARRAPODI: ... themselves and their support for Joran Van Der Sloot. Now, interestingly enough, we spoke with Joran`s attorneys, who are in Aruba today. They did not travel with Joran to this interview here in New York.

Now, when the Van Der Sloots arrived at their hotel, the Lucerne on the Upper West Side of Manhattan here, they were served...

GRACE: That`s some digs.

MARRAPODI: A nice hotel. They were served with papers from investigators. The whole thing has been videotaped. A private investigator here in New York, Bo Dietl, has said he has the video and will be providing it to the media on Tuesday. So we`ll be keeping a close, close eye on this one to see what actually happened.

GRACE: Well, what`s the content of the papers? What`s the lawsuit all about?

MARRAPODI: Well, the lawsuit...

GRACE: Well, for one thing -- hold on. Let me just break you off right there. For one thing, a lawsuit means discovery, depositions, cross- examining these parties, including the father and the son.

MARRAPODI: That`s right. You know, this lawsuit is a civil lawsuit. And it breaks down into a number of charges, three against Joran, a few against his father, as well, one of which is false imprisonment.

Obviously, with the whereabouts of Natalee Holloway still unknown 263 days later, not much can be brought. This is not a wrongful death civil suit; this is a civil suit seeking punitive damages, among other things.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, many, many times when a case goes dead then you get a civil lawsuit, you get somebody under deposition oath, start asking questions, and it all comes unraveled.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I`ve got a copy of the lawsuit. Gotcha! He goes to New York. I don`t know who his lawyer is, but they didn`t need to let him go get served with a lawsuit. And, Nancy, they talk about him in the lawsuit as the predator. I love it.


Renee Rockwell, Eric, all of my guests on this case.

Let`s quickly shift to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement on the lookout for this man, Kurk Broaster, wanted in connection with the 2002 New York City shooting death of Gerald Febrillet.

Broaster, 23, 6`6", 155 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the New York P.D., 1-800-577-TIPS.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And, remember, live coverage next week of the sentencing of a young man, Cody Posey, a New Mexico teen convicted of gunning down his family, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us tonight as we stop once again to remember tonight Corporal Andrew J. Kemple, 23, an American hero.


GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.


JOE FLAHERTY, SPOKESMAN FOR NEIL ENTWISTLE`S FAMILY: To think that someone we loved, trusted, opened our home to could do this to our daughter and granddaughter is beyond belief.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neil Entwistle shot Rachel Entwistle in the head and then proceeded to shoot Baby Lillian, who was lying on the bed next to her mother.

FLAHERTY: We are astonished and devastated to learn of the hidden life of Neil Entwistle.

JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Prosecutors are trying to lay out a case against Scott Dyleski, who`s going to be tried as an adult. And the judge will determine if there`s enough evidence for this young man to stand trial for murder.

GRACE: Why are you going back to court each and every day?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know why. It`s funny. I don`t know what motivates me.

GRACE: The perpetrator likely came right up here, knew exactly where he was going.

HOROWITZ: What I want to remember from all of this when it`s all over is that Pamela was loving, caring, raised two wonderful children, because I`m not going to let the evil part taint my memories.

GRACE: Daniel, Daniel, we will not forget it.

PERRY MARCH, CONVICTED MURDERER: I didn`t do anything wrong. Look for Janet, and stop looking at Perry.

GRACE: That`s Perry March, and he is facing not one, not two, but three felony trials, including for the murder of his wife, for attempting to have his in-laws murdered, and for stealing from his father-in-law, in whose firm he worked.

Cries unheard, suffering ignored for over a decade. Take a look at this little angel, could barely walk, two years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Curtis got to get away with murder for 17 years, when I had to live my life in pain, life I just couldn`t bare sometimes. I didn`t know how I was going to make it. He was living his life.


GRACE: I want to thank Chuckie`s mother, Cathy Miller, and Mr. and Mrs. Kesse. But thank you to all of my guests tonight.

Our biggest thank you from me and our staff is to you for being with us, inviting our searches for missing people, our legal stories into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight and for this week. See you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.