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Nancy Grace

No DNA Match Found in Duke Rape Scandal

Aired April 10, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news, a major blow tonight to the state. DNA results in the Duke University lacrosse team rape scandal are in, and according to the defense, no DNA -- not no DNA match, but no DNA whatsoever. Was there a multiple rape, as she said? The DA has publicly stated she did have vaginal trauma. Did the perpetrators use condoms?
Also tonight, the defense claims photos show the student-turned- stripper was injured when she got to the party? Could that be true?

And tonight, a new break in the New York City grad student murder mystery. Prime suspect, bouncer Darryl Littlejohn, last seen with the murdered student, Imette St. Guillen, facing even more charges tonight in yet another rape case.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news. Bar bouncer Darryl Littlejohn, the chief suspect in the torture-murder of 24-year-old New York City grad student Imette St. Guillen facing brand-new felony charges in yet another separate sex attack.

But first tonight, the Duke lacrosse team under fire for multiple rape allegations. The defense scores. No DNA whatsoever from the victim`s body. Can the state show the perps used condoms, or is it over, over for a prosecution for this alleged rape victim? Tonight, we are taking your calls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look at the DNA results, it`s obvious that, first of all, she wasn`t raped in that house by any of these boys. That DNA absolutely says that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the DNA evidence at this point, and it would be inappropriate for me to comment on any of the things that have been said by the defense counsel

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecutor sought the court`s permission to have this report, saying that he wanted this report to be able to show that people were innocent. Well, this report shows that they`re innocent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to prepare a case so that we can be in a position to do what we need to do under my statutory authority.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it is a false accusation that has been made, for some reason, against these boys, and I think that it has been used to hurt their lives forever and to tear this community apart.


GRACE: Does the negative test result show there was no rape? Does it show that condoms were used? Would this woman have made up the entire scenario, be found dazed and confused in a Kroeger parking lot, have her nails torn off, have bruises around her neck, have vaginal trauma? Did she make the whole thing up? Where are the answers?

Straight out to Kevin Miller, reporter from WPTF radio. Kevin Miller, let me get this straight. Is it correct that there`s no DNA match to the lacrosse players, or there`s no DNA period?

KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: No DNA period, according to defense attorneys today, where they held their impromptu newser about two hours ago, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, question. What about the fingernails that were broken off on the bathroom floor?

MILLER: According defense attorney Joe Cheshire, no DNA there, no DNA of the accuser in the bathroom.

GRACE: OK, big and crucial question to forensic scientist Dr. Kobilinsky. Koby (ph), important. If condoms were used, would there have to be evidence of latex?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s not the latex that we look for. We look for the condom lubricant. Most condoms have some sort of lubrication, and we do have tests for that. Failure to find that would indicate that condoms were not used.

So what are the other possibilities? the individuals could have been deceptimized (ph). They could be azoospermic (ph), which means they don`t produce sperm. None of these things are likely.

Right now, this ace in the hole for the prosecutor turned out to be a joker.

GRACE: OK, question. Dr. Kobilinsky, are you telling me that every time a condom is used, there will be lubricant result in the DNA results?

KOBILINSKY: Well, no. What I`m saying is, is most condoms have lubrication, lubricants, and we have tests for those lubricants. So...

GRACE: OK, Kevin Miller, do we know if that test has been run?

MILLER: According to defense attorneys, there was no trace of any condoms or lubricant from the DNA released today.

GRACE: OK, Kevin Miller with WPTF radio, on the ground there in Raleigh, North Carolina -- Kevin, I understand that there was DNA found in a towel in the bathroom where she says she was raped. Question. Was it sperm?

MILLER: I don`t know the answer to that, Nancy.

GRACE: When do you think the report will be made public?

MILLER: As far as the towel?

GRACE: As far as the whole report, the crime lab report itself.

MILLER: Well, I believe that the defense attorneys will make that further public probably tomorrow morning. Again, they had a news conference as soon as they got the results. The SBI (ph) released -- brought those back to Durham DA Michael Nifong late this afternoon. He called everybody in, and they looked at the results. They talked to us later on in the day.

GRACE: I want to go to Wendy Murphy, former federal prosecutor. Wendy, I know that this is a huge blow to the state. Now, you and I have prosecuted long enough to have prosecuted rape cases, serious rape cases, before we had DNA, all right? I didn`t have DNA in my original rape prosecutions. We didn`t have it to use it. I mean, it may have been there, but we didn`t have that technology.

But Wendy, listen, when you put together vaginal trauma -- the district attorney has point-blank stated in the "Herald Sun" there in Raleigh that there is vaginal trauma. We know that there was bruising around her neck. We know that she was found dazed and confused in a Kroeger parking lot. We know that she basically ran out of this house and left behind her pocketbook with money, cell phone, her car keys in it.


GRACE: A shoe. I mean, what do you think, Wendy?

MURPHY: Look, I think the most telling thing we can say about what the defense presser meant today, the most telling statement is what they didn`t do, Nancy. They didn`t just turn over the results. Isn`t that interesting, that the only thing they would give us was their characterization of what the report said.

And I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head when you challenged Dr. Kobilinsky about the significance of the negative findings because I think about 90 percent of rape cases involve no DNA at all, even with the available technology. And frankly, that towel, the towel in the bathroom, the deafening silence from the defense attorneys about what was found on the towel in the bathroom -- how do you explain that? And I think Dr. Kobilinsky just didn`t tell us an honest answer, frankly, to your question, which is that the reason there was no DNA found in her body is because they finished the act, if I could be polite for a second here -- they finished the act outside of her body, on the towel.

GRACE: OK, Wendy? Wendy? Wendy...

MURPHY: That`s damning evidence!

GRACE: This is the first time that -- we`ve got to put it on record that you put something delicately.


GRACE: But you know what? Here`s the deal. We`re talking about a gang rape. There`s nothing delicate about it, an alleged gang rape. So if these guys assaulted this lady and then ejaculated into a towel -- listen, Wendy, I remember a guy...


MURPHY: Let`s call it what it is.

GRACE: He was called the "red rapist," and he raped multiple women in and around the city of Atlanta. He did not always ejaculate. We think he may have used a condom. Ultimately, there was DNA, so we could tie together many of the other rapes. But long story short, you don`t always have DNA. What`s your take, Lauren Lake?

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think it is devastating for the prosecution, of course, as a defense attorney. And if the facts do turn out the way these defense attorneys are talking, this is problematic, and let`s just admit it. Now, the towel issue -- let me get to this. What I heard those defense attorneys say is that that towel that they found the DNA, those were the two boys whose bathroom that was in the home. That was their bathroom. So they found DNA on towels from their bathroom. So there was an explanation as to the towel DNA.

GRACE: But wait a minute...

LAKE: But I think it is problematic, and you`ve got to just say it, that there is...

GRACE: I`ve already said it.

LAKE: ... no DNA here, and...

GRACE: Well, that`s the first thing I said, Lauren Lake. I mean, I`m not trying to get away from the truth. There`s no DNA. What I`m trying to do is figure out what happened.

And to Penny Douglas Furr. If we`re in the bathroom where the lady says that she was raped, multiple rapes by Duke`s elite lacrosse team, in that bathroom, we find her fingernails torn off and we find a towel, if the towel there with her fingernails has ejaculate in it that matches any of these guys, well, what does that say to you, Penny?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, to me, it says they do live there. I mean, their DNA will be in the towel, all over the bathroom and all over the house. My concern is, if this woman did make this up, she`s ruined a lot of lives, and there needs to be some...

GRACE: I`m asking you about the towel.

FURR: ... type of punishment for her.

GRACE: Before we start preaching...

FURR: The towel? They live there. They live there. They`re going to...


FURR: -- have their DNA on the towel, in the bathroom, in the bedroom. That is their bedroom.

GRACE: You don`t think it`s pretty -- a little bit of a coinky-dink - - a coincidence -- that her torn-off nails are there? She says that`s where she was attacked. And then you`ve got a towel with possible ejaculate in it. That doesn`t, like, strike you as disturbing?

FURR: Well, I believe the nails were in the bathroom, but she could have pulled those off. I mean, those are those typical nails that they do, after two weeks, they pop off themselves. So this is not something where somebody ripped off her nails. And I think if that happened, there would have been DNA around the nails, on the nails...

GRACE: So Robi Ludwig...

FURR: ... if she was fighting with them.

GRACE: So Robi Ludwig, we see exactly where the defense is going with this. She tore off her own nails in the bathroom!


GRACE: Then she ran out of the house with one shoe on, leaving behind all of her money, her car keys, her pocketbook, her cell phone, everything. All right, you`re the psychologist. Shrink it.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, you know, it does sound suspicious. And clearly, this woman was feeling threatened in some way. Now, whether she was actually raped or not, it`s hard to say at this point.


LUDWIG: But clearly, the DNA and not having any physical evidence is a problem. We know DNA doesn`t tell the whole story. It`s very possible that this woman, in an elitist school and environment, somehow was being taunted and treated very poorly and she felt afraid. And perhaps she was being roughhoused a little bit and was considered, basically, a non-person for a lot of different reasons. But whether she was actually raped or not, hard to now, and we do need more evidence.


GRACE: I don`t know. I think it would take a lot to make me run out of a house on one shoe, leaving behind all my ID, what little money I have on me, my car keys, the works, and my pocketbook.

LUDWIG: Well, you could be intimidated...

GRACE: It`s just not...


LUDWIG: You could be intimidated. You could be frightened. You could be threatened...

UNIDENTIFIED: That`s what I`m saying!

LUDWIG: ... and not actually raped. Right.

GRACE: It would take a lot to make a woman do that.

LUDWIG: It would. Absolutely. I have no doubt that this woman was treated with a severe lack of respect. I mean, as we know, anybody who`s in a fraternity house can certainly have those feelings and feel like that. But as a woman, yes, I mean, I -- it`s worth looking into.

GRACE: Here`s what the defense attorney had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining woman -- not present within her body, not present on the surface of her body, and not present on any of her belongings, not present on any of the articles or materials she had with her, including her clothing. No DNA from any young man tested was found anywhere on or about the body of this woman.


GRACE: To Monika Johnson-Hostler. She is the executive director of the North Carolina Coalition Against Sex Assault. Monika, thank you for being with us, again. Is this a deal-breaker for the prosecution?

MONIKA JOHNSON-HOSTLER, EXEC. DIR., NC COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT: I don`t think so, Nancy. As Wendy said, and as I said last week, the DNA is just one piece of this puzzle. And let`s face it. Nobody has said this. This is a woman. This is a human being. We have her testimony as a part of the prosecution.

GRACE: And another thing. I find it very, very difficult to believe that not one person, not one of those 47 -- and we know that 26 of the 47 lacrosse team players, according to "The New York Times," are from a different area. They`re from New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. Not one of them will come forward and speak about what happened, Monika?

JOHNSON-HOSTLER: Absolutely. You know, Nancy, somebody mentioned the frat house and the -- that goes along with the code of silence. And you know, the bottom line for me is something happened in that house. They`ve all chosen to be quiet, which, to me, as someone said, that`s reason to be suspicious.

GRACE: Well, and my point -- way of thinking, it`s like being pregnant. You are or you`re not. It`s not a little pregnant, OK?

JOHNSON-HOSTLER: Right. That`s right.

GRACE: Either the woman was raped, or the woman is making up. They didn`t just attempt to rape her. It was three men on one victim, according to her, in a locked bathroom. So either they did it or they didn`t.

Now, it`s all about credibility at this junk tour, her credibility versus their credibility. Monika, what is your perception? What are you hearing regarding the -- whether this DA`s going to go forward with charges?

JOHNSON-HOSTLER: We haven`t really heard. He`s been pretty quiet for the last week or so, Nancy. But I think for me, and I hope that the DA is listening and has good advisers on this, that this is not only not the only way to prosecute a sexual assault case. We have always been advocates that you prosecute these cases on evidence, and you use other material evidence, not just DNA.

GRACE: Well, back to Wendy Murphy, former federal prosecutor. We don`t know what he`s got. For all we know, a couple of guys have come forward and stated what they know. Maybe he`s having doubt about the victim`s story himself. I mean, we don`t know what he`s got up his sleeve. The district attorney has been very tight-lipped. He`s held the cards to his vest, as he should. But also, I was noticing what you said, Wendy, what the defense has not put out there, that being the report. And they`ve got it.

MURPHY: Yes. I mean, look, it`s the fact that they take an awful long time for the defense to come out and say anything meaningful. And the silence is deafening in terms of why they didn`t come forward right away and say, Look, we`re all innocent. What they did was clam up and say, Let`s stick together so we can get away with this.

Look, I think the real key here is that these guys, like so many rapists -- and I`m going to say it because, at this point, she`s entitled to the respect that she is a crime victim. These guys watch "CSI," and they know it`s a really bad idea to ejaculate on or in the victim. And maybe what she said, which makes her particularly credible, is, These guys didn`t ejaculate on or inside of my body, which means she deserves extra credibility because no one`s suggesting that she lied about whether there would be DNA found on her person.

And Nancy, look, you know, why? Why do we live in a culture people are so willing to assume women are masochist enough to not only do all the things you describe but strangle themselves and tear their own vaginas to make, what, a false claim look good? We would let women be perceived as hysterical masochists rather than believe that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it`s a duck? Can we use a little bit of common sense here?

Forget respect and disrespect for a minute! How about common sense and decency? A DA who was not born yesterday has said, after two weeks of investigation, I believe this woman was brutally raped and attacked. And now, because of DNA -- which never tells the whole story, ever -- somehow, we`re going to just abandon the case and celebrate the boys as, you know, having had a bad night?

GRACE: I don`t see it happening, Wendy. I don`t see him backing out. But hey, he has information that none of us has.

Also, when we get back, everybody, we think we`ve gotten to the bottom of the so-called alleged victim`s record. And what about those photos that some of the lacrosse team players allegedly snapped before and after?

As we go to break, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A 911 operator allegedly ignored two calls placed by a 6-year-old little boy, Robert Turner, as his mom lay dying February 20. Detroit police say they are investigating the case.


911 OPERATOR: What`s the problem?

ROBERT TURNER, 6-YEAR-OLD: My mom has passed out.

911 OPERATOR: Where`s the grown-ups at?


911 OPERATOR: Let me speak to her. Let me speak to her before I send the police over there.

I don`t care. You shouldn`t be playing on the phone. Now, put her on the phone before I send the police out there to knock on the door and you`re going to be in trouble.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no evidence, other than the word of this one complaining person, that any rape or sexual assault took place in that house on that evening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t there two weeks ago. It`s not here today. It won`t be here tomorrow. It won`t be here next year. No rape or sexual assault happened in that house, and this DNA report shows it loud and clear.


GRACE: Is the case over against the elite lacrosse team at Duke University? No DNA, not no DNA match, but no DNA whatsoever on the alleged victim`s body. What does it mean?

Let me go straight back out to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, what about these photos that members of the lacrosse team took? Why would they take photos anyway?

MILLER: Nancy, I don`t know about that, but that was released over the weekend by defense attorneys, that there are time-stamped photos that show, according to defense attorneys, the accuser having cuts and bruises on her body before the party, and before she goes into the house, having cuts and bruises. And they say this proves that this trauma occurred before the party happened.

GRACE: Have you seen them?

MILLER: No, I haven`t.

GRACE: To Darrell Coleman, senior, North Carolina Central University. He`s the director of the public relations for Student Government Association. What is the response to the negative DNA results?

DARRELL COLEMAN, SENIOR, NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY: Basically, I guess you want to know what our response to the negative DNA results. Basically, here on this campus, first we must realize that this announcement today is one piece of the puzzle, one part of the story. And what I think everybody here in this community is waiting for is -- excuse me -- the judicial system`s decision.

GRACE: Right. I`m waiting to see what the district attorney is going to do. To Brian Reich, a detective with the computer crimes unit. How do the timestamps on these digicams and cell phone cams work?

DET. BRIAN REICH, COMPUTER CRIMES UNIT: Well, it`s not really a time- stamp, it`s more of a -- it`s what we call meta data. Meta data simply is data about data. Every digital camera or data storage device that can take a picture -- or I shouldn`t say every -- many have the opportunity to stamp the date and time, even the type of camera that was used.

GRACE: Are they always accurate?

REICH: It`s not always accurate because you don`t know if the camera was programmed with the exact date and time.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I used to remember when Duke stood as a source of pride and accomplishment. Now, unfortunately, it is a constant source of shame and animosity.


GRACE: Major blow to the state`s case tonight in the Duke lacrosse gang rape scandal. No DNA whatsoever -- not DNA that doesn`t match, but no DNA at all.

Let`s go to the lines, Elizabeth. Diane in Toronto. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, Nancy, I have to say I love you so much. You are the greatest person -- legal person on TV today!

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband and I fight about you every night.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anyways, here`s to my question. If the DNA on the towel is found positive to one or more of the players, will that help the prosecution?

GRACE: Oh, absolutely. It will definitely help the prosecution, but only if it is ejaculate. If this is, like, skin cells from wiping off after a shower or something that would innocently be there, it`s not going to help the state. Otherwise, it may. We`ve got to wait and find out. You notice, Diane, the defense didn`t mention what was on that towel in the bathroom. Good question.

Let`s go to Jen in Virginia. Hi, Jen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing?

GRACE: Fine..

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically, my question is, is it possible that they used foreign implements to have sodomized her, and just with the chaos of the whole thing that she just didn`t realize that it was not actually their personal bodies?

GRACE: It is absolutely possible. What about it, Dr. Kobilinsky?

KOBILINSKY: Well, anything is possible, but you know, you have to ask the question when. When were the bruises?

GRACE: But Dr. Kobilinsky, don`t you remember she left the house to start with because they threatened to assault her with a broom?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that is true. But we really don`t understand her motivation. As I said, the question is when. When were the bruises inflicted? When was the genital trauma inflicted? When was the DNA deposited on the towels? That`s the issue.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No DNA from any young man tested was found anywhere on or about the body of this woman. It wasn`t here a few weeks ago. It`s not here today. We hope that Mr. Nifong will announce that he is not going to pursue this case further. It won`t be here tomorrow. There was no sexual assault. It won`t be here next year. Perhaps this community can begin to heal.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

A major blow against the state in their prosecution of members of the Duke University lacrosse team, charged with multiple rape on a student turned stripper that came to their home that evening.

Let me get right to Wendy Murphy, former federal prosecutor. Let`s try to figure out what the D.A. is planning at this moment. This was a huge, a devastating blow to the state`s case. But, Wendy, what may he have up his sleeve?

MURPHY: Yes. Really important question, Nancy. And we don`t know. I think you touched on one important point, which is that apparently, at least a couple of the players are cooperating and have provided statements there. It was a reflection of exactly that evidence in the search warrant information that was released earlier. And I`ll tell you something.

GRACE: Why do you say that, specifically?

MURPHY: Well, it was mentioned in the search warrant application was that information had been shared by at least some of the other players. We also know that one of the players leaked that nasty e-mail where someone threatened to have more strippers over and to kill them and slice their skin off.

And again, that sounds like it`s coming from a player who was not only deeply ashamed about what was going on but was deeply troubled that something criminal and awful had happened.

Nancy, you know, I got to suggest something here. And this is going to sound crazy. But I think we have to start at least talking about this as a possible DNA match, because of the towel evidence that no one wants to talk about.

If this woman identified -- and I know this evidence is out there, because the victim`s father has said she did an identification process with photographs. And let`s assume, for the sake of this conversation, that she identified the three men she said raped her from photographs. And it just so happens that two of them that she picked out happen to have their semen on the towel left at the scene, which happens to be consistent with everything she said happened in that bathroom. I`ll tell you something, that`s a DNA match.

That`s not what the defense is spinning it as tonight. But that is a DNA match and a good piece of evidence for the prosecution.

GRACE: To Lauren Lake. Why is the defense attorney making public statements at this juncture?

LAKE: Oh, because they are trying to try this case in the court of public opinion, like everyone else is. They`re trying to get out in front of the 8-ball and say, "Hey, hey, hey there`s nothing; it`s all over with."

But, Nancy, what we know here is the fact that there is no DNA that they found. And you know what`s killing me right now?

MURPHY: On her body. Wait on her body.

LAKE: Nancy, what`s killing me right now we just had the prosecution bandwagon raring up and somebody is already saying these guys are rapists. No, what they are, are alleged rapists.

And you better believe I`d be the first one if they raped this young girl like, well, be done with you, go ahead and go. But we know right now that they are alleged rapists, and we should treat it as such.

GRACE: OK. All right. Thank you for the sermon, Lauren. I`ve got a question for you.

LAKE: It`s not a sermon.

GRACE: I have a question about the evidence. Can we try to get back to the evidence?

LAKE: I was just talking about DNA.

GRACE: Yes. OK. Let`s talk about what we do know. What would be your theory at trial as to why this young lady -- she`s a stripper. Why would she leave $400, her pocketbook, her I.D., her cell phone, her car keys in the house? Why would she run from the house in one shoe? Why would she go up to the bathroom and break off all her fingernails in the bathroom?

LAKE: Nancy, that sounds like a compelling story, but as one of your guests already said there, there are so many things that could have occurred.

GRACE: Like what? That`s what I`m asking you.

GRACE: She could have been intimidated, feared for her life. She could have been -- there could have been racial slurs. There could have been a number of things going on there.

But what I`m saying to you is we have to prove a rape beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not about whether we think it, believe it or bet our bottom dollar. It`s about whether it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And if I can sit up there and say about a young girl that looks very much like me, then I know people on the other side of the table can tell the truth, too.

We are still at the alleged point. We don`t know what happened yet.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Florence in California. Welcome, Florence.

CALLER: Hey, friend. I have a question for you.


CALLER: The defense attorneys have experts that agree with them and disagree with the prosecution and vice versa. Nancy, where do ethics come in here? The lawyers are supposed to uphold the law. Thank you.

GRACE: You know what? Thank you, Florence. Here`s the bottom line. The district attorney would face all sorts of recourse if he goes forward with the case that is not true. It is the defense burden to represent their client to the best of their ability. It is up to the state to seek a verdict that speaks the truth. Very, very different ethical burdens.

I want to go out to Serena Seabring, graduate student there at Duke. Serena, you have been rallying. You have been protesting. You have been on the forefront. What is your reaction tonight to the DNA result?

SERENA SEABRING, DUKE STUDENT: I think it`s unfortunate, but I think that the unfortunate part if we forgot a crime did occur. There was racial violence that happened that night. There were racial epithets hurled at that woman heard by other observers and nobody has challenging that.

I think it`s unfortunate if we forget that a rape is still being charged here. It hasn`t been dismissed. And so I think that we would be - - it would be unfortunate to allow this situation to get polarized to an unnecessary extent.

GRACE: Back to Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney. What would happen to the district attorney if he went forward with a case for political reasons?

FURR: Well, Nancy, I think it could really destroy his career. It could completely be over. What I would advance that I really believe probably happened here is she was intimidated, they were threatening her. It`s a bunch of drunk, rowdy, college kids. I think she got scared and just ran out. And that`s what I honestly believe happened, she was angry with them.

GRACE: Wait a minute, Penny. You also believe that, coincidentally, she went into the bathroom and cracked off all her fingernails.

FURR: Now, what I was trying to say, Nancy, I`ve had those acrylic nails. If you`ve had them for as long as 10 days or two weeks, they pop off by themselves. You don`t have to have...

GRACE: All of them?

FURR: Yes. They can easily -- I`ve had them on. It depends how long she`s had them, but if she`s had them longer than, say, a week it is easy to pop them off.

GRACE: If she had just been intimidated, how do you explain the vaginal trauma that the district attorney has openly stated to the "Herald Sun"?

FURR: That could have happened when she had sex with her boyfriend two days ago.

GRACE: No, Penny, no. Sperm -- spermatozoa stays somewhat intact for three full days.

FURR: So maybe she`s had sex with her boyfriend and he used a condom. I mean, you have no idea when she had sex that would cause the vaginal trauma. How do you connect that to this alleged rape?

GRACE: My question to you is, what would be her motivation to come up with a story: go through a rape kit, go through quizzing by the district attorney? Why?

FURR: Well, Nancy, I go back to cases like the runaway bride. She got caught up here. She felt she was under pressure. I think she felt he had to make something up. I think she was scared. I think she was under pressure. They probably did do epithets at her, and I think she was frightened. She ran. She`s mad. She did not get her money. She left her purse there. And so I think that, under the pressure, she just added more and more to the story.

GRACE: OK. Let`s stress, so far all we have is the defense spin on the state crime lab result. We have not seen the actual report. Here`s what the D.A. said when he was still speaking.


MICHAEL NIFONG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Nobody is going to get a proper record based on things that are leaked by either side prior to trial. The place to get a proper record, in any criminal proceeding, is in the trial. And it would be inappropriate for me to comment on any of the evidence at this point, and it would be inappropriate for me to comment on any of the things that have been said by the defense counsel.

I`m trying to prepare a case so that we can be in a position to do what we need to do, under my statutory authority. And, other than that, I really have no comment to make at this time. We will let you know when there are further developments.


GRACE: Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. Kevin, if you take a listen to what Wendy Murphy said and you very carefully read the search warrants and supporting affidavits, it does appear that someone is cooperating with the district attorney. What do you know about it?

MILLER: Well, only from what the search warrant does state, where you have someone tipping them off to the e-mail. The idea that someone is cooperating, the district attorney, really hasn`t said it.

And, you know, people are saying why are the defense attorneys, Nancy, talking so much? It`s because the district attorney, the first week of this case tomorrow will be a month and no charges have been filed yet. The district attorney granted over 70 interviews. They decided that they would respond.

They have said publicly, Nancy, that, if he had not gone public, they would have -- they would have tried this behind closed doors, but what`s good for the goose is good for the gander.

GRACE: When was the last time we had a statement by the district attorney?

MILLER: I would say it`s been over a week. At least a week ago.

GRACE: To -- back to Kevin Miller, do we know if pubic hair has been tested?

MILLER: That has not been disclosed. And again, when people are saying why don`t we have full disclosure? This just came down this afternoon. These defense attorneys just looked them over and had their presser. So, I would assume -- I hate to say "assume" -- that we will get more of the information as it becomes available.

GRACE: To Wendy Murphy. Wendy, what can the pubic hair reveal and what do you expect to be additional test results?

MURPHY: Look, a pubic hair can be a very important piece of evidence that, if it does end up matching one of the guys, will ultimately be argued by the defense that all it means is that, you know, there was a pubic hair in the bathroom and it doesn`t tell about whether there was a sexual assault.

At some point you have to stop making ridiculous excuses. You have to stop with the crazy masochism. She ripped her own vagina. She strangled her own neck. Oh, she just had to lay atop the poor guy`s pubic hair. Oh, they happened to ejaculate on the same towel in the same bathroom. Oh, she just happened to identify the two guys who happened to have semen on the towel.

You know, common sense seems to take a vacation when we have rape cases in this country. Let`s just assume, for a minute, that the D.A. and the police know what they`re doing, understand the way the game works and they`re probably sitting back in their seats laughing right now at the defense spin, because they know what they have. And they`re going to tell us, at some point, how ridiculous it is for the defense to suggest that the absence of DNA means this woman wasn`t raped.

GRACE: You know to Kevin Miller, before we switch and take everyone to the Imette St. Guillen story, were there bruises on her neck?

MILLER: I don`t know that. But I will see the reason why DNA, to address Wendy`s point, Nancy, the reason why DNA is such a big deal is Mr. Nifong made it a big deal. The D.A. said DNA was more important than the eyewitness accounts.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not evidence until a judge says it`s evidence. And the only people that I`m concerned about right now are the 12 jurors that are selected to try this case. I believe in my client. Several of the things that he`s told us have certainly checked out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had a passion for life and a thirst for seeing the world and learning new things. With Imette`s death, the world lost something very special far too soon.


GRACE: The young lady you just saw talking, the spitting image of New York City grad student Imette St. Guillen. As you know, St. Guillen found tortured, mutilated, assaulted, her body thrown to the side of the road.

Tonight, the chief suspect, now possibly facing charges in yet another sex assault. To reporter with the "New York Daily News" Nicole Bode. Nicole, thank you for being with us. What`s the latest?

NICOLE BODE, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": The latest police have come out this weekend saying they have DNA linking Littlejohn to a previous attempted rape. This case was in October. It was a 19-year-old college student. She was pulled off the street by a man fitting Littlejohn`s description. He was driving a blue van similar to one Littlejohn is described as having.

And he -- this man pulled this 19-year-old off the street in Queens, dragged her into the van, bound her with these handcuffs which his DNA was now found on. She managed to escape by jumping out of that van and going to police. And now, his DNA is on these handcuffs.

GRACE: So, same M.O., almost the same exact M.O. as used in the Imette St. Guillen case. He got DNA on the handcuffs again?

BODE: Yet again, yes.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

I want to go to Brian Reich, detective. Brian, it`s not just the DNA here. It`s the M.O., the modus operandi, the method of operation. It`s the same exact M.O. as with Imette St. Guillen.

REICH: Absolutely, very typical whenever you have a serial type of criminal out there. They have a particular type of fantasy. They target a particular type of individual. And they generally use a pattern. You know, whatever their particular fantasies, whether it`s bondage, whether it`s torture. And a criminal profiler will look for those clues to try to tell if this is an organized offender or disorganized offender.

This guy seems he has some intelligence, that he can be organized. He obviously came with the tools of his trade that he needed, such as to tie the person up. He could have some type of bondage fantasy. And fortunately, for law enforcement, these guys will use the same types of methods of -- M.O.s to get their victims, to rape and kill them.

GRACE: You said "fortunately" correct?

REICH: Well, it`s fortunate for us. It`s unfortunately, obviously, for us.

GRACE: I think it`s fortunate for us.

REICH: It`s fortunate for us, because it enables us to be able to identify the case.

GRACE: That`s right. Not only try the case but.

REICH: Not only that but it enables us to pinpoint who it is when we see patterns. For example in this case, we`re able to find that there`s a very similar type of circumstances surrounding other crimes and we`re able to link it to him, hopefully. So it`s fortunate for us that those things occur so can find out who`s doing it.

GRACE: Make a link even without sometimes DNA evidence.

Back to "New York Daily News" reporter Nicole Bode. Now Nicole, is this the assault victim that could not make an eyewitness I.D. of him?

BODE: There have been at least three women that police know about who fit this kind of description. All three of them, not only -- up until this one -- all three of them didn`t have DNA evidence. Now there are two remaining that don`t have DNA evidence, but all three were unable to pick him out of a lineup, which just goes to show...

GRACE: And Nicole, when you say they couldn`t pick him out, did they -- they could not pick anybody or they picked the wrong person?

BODE: No -- well, I don`t know the specifics of it.

GRACE: Subtle but important point. So she couldn`t pick him out but then the DNA turns up.

Here is Darryl Littlejohn. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you working that night?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see Imette St. Guillen at the bar?

LITTLEJOHN: At the end of the night, yes.


LITTLEJOHN: Just before closing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did somebody ask you to escort her out?

LITTLEJOHN: Yes. It was close to the closing time. Every -- all the other patrons had left the bar. And I was asked to escort her out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you do that?

LITTLEJOHN: Yes. That`s normal. At -- upon closing time, the stragglers or whoever is remaining by, they have to be out of the -- off the premises by four -- four -- 4 a.m. or the bar gets fined.


GRACE: We now know that Littlejohn`s story allegedly changed three different times. Having a little bit of a problem keeping that story straight.

Let`s go to Jo-Jo in Wisconsin. Hi, Jo-Jo.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. You kick backside, and I just love you. My question...

GRACE: That`s a nice way to put it. Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: You`re welcome. Why does our legal system continue to let these multiple convicted felons and perverts out of prison? All the rights seem to go to the criminal. What about our right to be able to go and have a drink and be safe?

GRACE: Well put, and I can agree with you that this guy, and I`m not going to hold back, is definitely a perv. Not only do we have him practically dead in the rights on these two, although he`s got to go to jury trial but Jo-Jo is right he had an extensive criminal history. And the parole board said he was a menace to society and then let him out.

A quick break and we`ll all be right back. I want to hear what psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig -- she`s the author of a brand new book -- has to say about this.

Remember, Milwaukee police on trial for a civilian beating, 3 to 5 Eastern Court TV.

Please stay with us tonight as we remember Army specialist Patrick W. Herrierd, 29, of Sioux Falls, South Dakota, killed by a bomb near his vehicle, Iraq. He was totally into weight training and cycling. His mom says he was very quiet, focused, and a good son. Patrick W. Herrierd, an American hero.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe in my client. Several of the things that he`s told us have certainly checked out. He`s told us that he had nothing to do with it. And if you look at his criminal history -- and, yes, he does have a criminal history -- but there are no allegations whatsoever concerning violence against women.


GRACE: To psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, author of a new book, "Til Death Do Us Part".

How fortuitous that`s the name of the book and we`re talking about this St. Guillen case and this guy, Darryl Littlejohn.


GRACE: Why the same M.O. over and over again?

LUDWIG: Well, you know, when we all have destructive tendencies, there tends to be a repetition about it. We tend to get caught up in pleasure-seeking behavior. We approach what`s pleasurable...

GRACE: Robi, pleasure seeking behavior? You mean rape and murder?

LUDWIG: Yes, but the rapist.


LUDWIG: You have to understand, Nancy, I mean, the rapist is not you and their mindset is they feel powerful during the moment that they are pursuing the rape and that there is some sadistic pleasure in what they`re doing. People don`t do things unless it gives them pleasure. They may get themselves punished in the end, but basically...

GRACE: Are you saying that he has to go about it the same way every time?

LUDWIGH: Well, there`s probably a fantasy that gives him pleasure, and in some cases it could become more perverse and more severe over time. So that once you act out the fantasy it isn`t as pleasurable, and you have to up the ante.

GRACE: Such as, Nicole Bode with "The New York Daily News", the prior alleged rape, then the rape-murder. Nicole Bode, were the other attacks the same M.O., the ones that have not been connected to him yet?

BODE: The ones that haven`t been connected to him yet are, one is a similar age, a 22-year-old woman in Queens. She was pulled off the street, again, with a blue van or a dark-colored van by a man also fitting a similar description. She, however, was unable to escape, so she was raped. There is evidence that she may have been bound, similar to the way Imette was bound.

GRACE: Was there DNA? Was there DNA at all?


GRACE: Dad-gum-it.

BODE: She was forced to wipe down, though, the same way that...

GRACE: Well, I know but if you have a rape where the perp ejaculates vaginally, you can`t wipe down and get rid of that.

BODE: Right.

GRACE: But the point is there`s just not always DNA.

Nicole Bode, "New York Daily News", thank you, friend, for the latest.

BODE: Thank you.

GRACE: But you know what, thank you to all of my guests. Our biggest thank you tonight is to you for being with us and inviting all of us and our stories into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing of for this Monday night. See you right here tomorrow night, 8 p.m. sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.