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Nancy Grace

Secret Grand Jury Hands Down Indictments in Duke Rape Case

Aired April 18, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina. A secret grand jury hands down multi-count indictments in the Duke rape case, the two rape suspects, both from well-to-do families out of New York and New Jersey, arrested, booked, fingerprinted in the early morning hours and released. Tonight, both out on bail as we wait for yet a third indictment from that same grand jury.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news in the Duke University rape case. Now headed to a courtroom, two Duke University lacrosse players, Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, arrested, booked and charged in the alleged gang rape of a 27-year-old student-turned-stripper. Tonight, as we wait for yet a third indictment to come down, we are taking your calls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two who have been indicted had no contact with this woman whatsoever. We are shocked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a good kid, a very good kid, and I`m sure he`s innocent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t tell me a lot of the details, but she did tell me that these (INAUDIBLE) raped her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We always thought she would pick out someone who at least had a conversation with her or paid her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is very sad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the neighbors are upset about it, and we just don`t believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) she cried all night long, felt they thought that she was lying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now what (INAUDIBLE) an indictment, and the legal system can take them to court.


GRACE: Apparently, these two young men taken into custody in the early morning hours, the darkness of night still shrouding them. Some claim preferential treatment in the fact that the indictment was sealed. Others say standard operating procedure. The indictments down. I have a copy of them right here to go through each and every count.

But first, let`s go out to WPTF radio reporter Kevin Miller. Kevin, describe what happened early this morning.

KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Well, a little before 5:00 AM Eastern time, Nancy, you did have both suspects were brought into the Durham police station. There have been massive stake-outs by the media. They did -- they were processed, $400,000 bail was posted...

GRACE: Whew!

MILLER: ... by both of the defendants, and then they were released. One defendant did waive his right to appear before the court. The other one decided to appear before the court.

GRACE: To Doug Burns. What is the advantage of waiving the court appearance?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, it`s a media circus, Nancy, so what`s the point? At an arraignment, you of all people know better than anybody, you go in, you waive a reading of the accusatory instrument, you plead not guilty, and then you have some arrangement with the prosecutors respecting bail. So there`s really no magic to an arraignment, so because of the fanfare, they waived it.

GRACE: Well, one waived and one didn`t. Do you agree or disagree, Nicole Deborde?

NICOLE DEBORDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it really just depends what the attorney wants to know. I mean, it could be that the attorney for the other person who did not waive arraignment felt that there was some additional information he could glean by actually appearing in court and having the prosecution say out loud what it is they were thinking, say out loud what is it...

GRACE: You know what? I`ve got to disagree with the two of you. You know why? If I were charged with a vicious attack on another person like this, you better bet I would show my face in court and say, Not guilty. Bring it on!

BURNS: Well, we can argue everything both ways, so you`re right, in a sense. You can argue it both ways.

DEBORDE: And certainly, I mean, I think it goes without saying that these people are saying, Absolutely, we`re innocent. We are not guilty. And I don`t think anybody that questions what their position is, at this point.

GRACE: Long story short, I`m talking about strategy, Nicole -- strategy, strategy, strategy. And the reality is -- and I know the two of you, if one of you had been charged with a heinous crime like this...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... taking advantage of a defenseless lady, all right -- I don`t care if she`s a stripper, I don`t care if she`s Mother Teresa! I would be in there screaming, Not guilty. I want a speedy trial. I want to go trial right now! Put 12 in the box. I`ll take the first 12. I did not do this thing. You better bet!

BURNS: Like O.J., you would say, One hundred percent absolutely not guilty.


GRACE: No, I wouldn`t be lying, Doug. But thanks for the reminder.

Let`s go straight back to Kevin Miller, reporter with WPTF radio. All right, I want to go back to the time and the location of their arrest. Did they surrender? Were they picked up? Was it something that was worked out between the defense attorneys and the state?

MILLER: Nancy, what we know right now is there was an agreement between the prosecution and the defense attorneys to allow them to come in, to avoid the media circus, and for concerns for the suspects` safety in the Durham county jail.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I say, it`s hard to put in words the unfairness and the injustice at this time. We look forward to showing that he is absolutely innocent as soon as we can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has done absolutely nothing. The two that they indicted had no contact with this woman whatsoever. We are shocked, absolutely shocked. We always thought she would pick out someone who at least had a conversation with her or paid her. This is outrageous, absolutely outrageous.


GRACE: Well, I don`t believe the young men are being charged for having a conversation or paying her. And yes, already, alibis are emerging. We`re going to get to that in just a moment.

But I want to get back, Kevin Miller, to the terms of the so-called surrender. It was around 5:00 o`clock this morning, I understand. Were they at home? Were they picked up by police? Did their attorneys drive them in? Did they get curb service? What happened?

MILLER: They were brought in during -- in a police cruiser, in handcuffs.

GRACE: And what happened once they got in?

MILLER: They were booked, and three hours later, one of the suspects did post bonds, and shortly after, the other one did, as well. And you had one attend the hearing and the other one didn`t.

GRACE: OK, to Doug Burns -- book in, book in. Let`s talk about what happens when you`re booked in. You get the mug shot. Do we have those mug shots, Elizabeth? You get a fingerprint. You get a criminal history written up. You get a physical description written up. And you`re set down for a court date. What else, if anything, happens, Doug Burns, at a book-in? Here are the mug shots.

BURNS: Well, no, that`s it. They snap your photograph. They fingerprint you. They, you know, put you through the paces. It`s humiliating. It`s embarrassing. And that`s why, by the way -- and you`re raising a good discussion. That`s why very often there very so many agreements to have voluntary surrenders.

And you know, sometimes there`ll be certain laxities with respect to that, by the way, and that`s when people say, Oh, preferential treatment, when they say, You can do the processing later, we don`t have to do it today. But apparently, they were booked, printed -- fingerprinted, just as you described, and it`s a humiliation, basically, quite apart from...

GRACE: A humiliation? Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait~! A humiliation would be dragging them out of class in front of their friends, or from Easter dinner, or Passover dinner, dragging them out in handcuffs, having the press there having a field day taking photos, roughing them up if they resisted in any way...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... letting them sit in the can for overnight, for instance, arresting them late on Saturday night, when their lawyers were out having dinner or something...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... letting them sit there for 24 hours on purpose. That would be torturing them.

BURNS: Well...

GRACE: Having a surrender agreement with their lawyers to bring them in cloaked in darkness...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... and they get to show up in their suits and ties, their prep ties from high school -- I really don`t get the humiliation accusation, Doug Burns.

BURNS: It`s not really an accusation. And maybe I didn`t phrase it correctly, but all I`m saying is, is that there are different levels of agreements. Some agreements are you can just show up at the courthouse -- I`ve had that many times in cases that I`ve handled -- as opposed to being scooped up at 5:00 AM But you know, you`re right. Obviously, it`s worse if they drag you out of work.

GRACE: Hey, Doug, just look at this. Hold on. Play that back for me, please, Miss Elizabeth. Did you -- take a look at these outfits! Now, you think they mysteriously appeared that way? Normally, when you see a perp walk...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... they`ve got on the orange jumpsuit, they`re walking along, looking grungy.

BURNS: No, but Nancy...

GRACE: These guys were decked out like they`re on the front of J. Crew!

BURNS: Yes, but that`s how they came out of their homes. In other words, that`s before they got there. When they were put in holding pens, ostensibly, they were in prison outfits. I don`t know. I don`t know how long they`re actually technically in custody. Normally, they take you to the courthouse and then, obviously, bring you to court in custody, in the orange outfit, et cetera, et cetera. I don`t know if they wore those preppy outfits into the courtroom. I didn`t see the footage.

GRACE: Take a listen to what the district attorney had to say.


MICHAEL NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: It doesn`t mean nothing happened. It just means nothing was left behind, which is the case in 75 to 80 percent of all sexual assaults. The thing about DNA is not only that it can point the finger to who the guilty people are, but it can also tell us who the guilty people are not.

And it`s important to remember that there are 46 members of the Duke University lacrosse team who were asked to submit to giving samples for DNA testing, and only three of those people are alleged to have been involved in the assault. So until we identify all three of those people, that means that some of these young men are going to be walking around under a cloud, where innocent people are being thought that perhaps they are guilty just because of their association.


GRACE: That is the elected district attorney Nifong speaking out.

And very quickly, I want to go back to Nicole Deborde. Let`s tell the viewers how the grand jury actually works. It`s my understanding in this jurisdiction, Nicole, there are about 18 members of that North Carolina grand jury. They meet, to my understanding, every two weeks on Monday. At that time, the district attorney will either have a presenter or he himself will present a case, typically with one, maybe two witnesses. It`s recorded for later use for the defense at trial, if they want it.

The grand jury can actually open up the floor to questions to, say, the detective or the victim, the alleged victim herself. They walk out, and within, usually 5 to 10 minutes, the grand jury of 18 votes bill, which is a grand jury indictment, or no bill, either a true bill or a no bill.

What is your thought on what happened in grand jury, Nicole?

DEBORDE: I think that you probably summarized it pretty much exactly how it went. And a lot of times, what the grand jury can do is call witnesses in and say, I want to hear testimony from this particular person. So it`s interesting that we haven`t heard anything about that. We don`t know whether or not this grand jury heard testimony from actual witnesses or whether or not they relied on the prosecution`s rendition of what took place or what allegedly took place in that house that night.

One of the things that the prosecution potentially could have done is actually bring her into the grand jury to testify. They could have subpoenaed additional people from that house to testify in that grand jury. So -- and those records would then be available not only for the defense but for the prosecution, as well, and future use in trial.

GRACE: That`s right. That`s right.

Back to Kevin Miller with WPTF radio. The $400,000 bail -- let`s talk about that a moment. It sound. Big, of course, both of them made it almost immediately. But they don`t really have to put up $400,000. How much did they actually put up, Kevin?

MILLER: Nancy, they only have to put up $60,000, but it is my understanding, from what I know, that there were two cashier`s checks for $400,000.

GRACE: Mommy! Four hundred thousand dollars? Whoa! OK. Now, where did you get that information, or can you reveal your source?

MILLER: I did get that information close to people that are on this case, both through the media and through close sources to the defense.

GRACE: OK, thanks for telling me nothing. Let me move on to another question. To Kevin Miller, WPTF radio. Let`s talk about these two young men. We`re talking about the two young men, Finnerty and Seligmann, both 20 years old, Finnerty sophomore from Garden City, New York, Seligmann sophomore from Essex Falls, New Jersey.

Now, let me get something straight. Were these two housemates in the home where the alleged rape took place?

MILLER: They were. But again, as the story comes out, Nancy, you have many people within the community, the defense community, feel that they have evidence that will prove that they were not there during the time that the crime occurred.

GRACE: Thank you, Kevin, for expanding on that question. But my original question was, Are these two men now indicted for rape housemates at that home?

MILLER: At that 610 North Buchanan Boulevard?


MILLER: I do not think so, no. That was three captains that were there at that home.

GRACE: OK. To Ellie Justed (ph) -- Ellie, did these two live there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s my understanding that they live together but not at that house, not at North Buchanan.

GRACE: So they lived together at another time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At a different house.

GRACE: They`re very familiar with each other.


GRACE: OK. Back to Kevin Miller. Kevin, what time did they make bond, and where did they go?

MILLER: They made bond after being at the Durham County police station within about three hours.

GRACE: Here is what one of Finnerty`s neighbors had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know Collin really well, and being around him has never been a problem. It`s very shocking. My wife was crying this morning. It should never happen. Just a good kid, a very good kid, and I`m sure he`s innocent.

They go to school with my kids, and they -- wonderful family.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very, very good Catholic. And this is very sad. It`s very devastating. You know, a lot of the neighbors are upset about it. And we just don`t believe it.


GRACE: Now joining us at the courthouse, CNN correspondent Jason Carroll. Do you expect a third indictment and arrest, Jason?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Interesting question, Nancy. When you listen to the district attorney, he`ll tell you that the investigation is still continuing and he is still very much pursuing a third suspect in all this.

GRACE: Now, has Nifong, the district attorney, commented on the arrest yet?

CARROLL: Not rally. I mean, when we saw him sort of come out very briefly today, he was not entertaining any reporters` questions. When we caught up with him yesterday, he said that he basically wanted to have his anonymity back. He is not commenting on the arrest, other than the prepared statement released by the district attorney`s office, basically saying -- filling out the basic details, saying that two people had been indicted at this point.

GRACE: Well, Jason Carroll, I`m not surprised at all that he is not commenting. That`s a sure-fire way to taint your jury pool and have a change of venue, which we may be looking at any way. Jason Carroll, very quickly, everyone, our CNN correspondent there at the courthouse tonight. Give me a clear picture of the timeline of events that happened the night of the alleged rape.

CARROLL: Well, it varies from who you talk to. But basically, what we can gather is March 13, these two young women show up at the house owned by the lacrosse -- some of the lacrosse players. They show up a little bit after 11:00 o`clock. They enter the house sometime around midnight. They dance for only a few moments. And the reason for that is because the prosecution will say that the boys were rowdy, that they were shouting racial slurs. So the young women decide to leave.

And then at some point, according to a neighbor next door, who was sort of watching what was going on out in front of the house, one of the young women decides to go back inside. This is sometime around 12:30 or so. And we are told from the prosecution that it is their belief that when this young woman went back inside this house -- again, sometime around 12:30 or so -- this is when the alleged sexual assault took place.

GRACE: We`re going to analyze a series of photos taken by the young men in the home, according to "Newsweek" magazine, broken down, as Jason Carroll has just told us, by the minute. Also, we`ll find out the likelihood of a third indictment and what happens next. The next court date set for May 15.

Very quickly to tonight`s "Case Alert." Nineteen-year-old Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt appearing in an Aruban courtroom today, Cromvoirt detained in the disappearance of 18-year-old Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway. It`s alleged a T-shirt found on the south end of the island belonged to Van Cromvoirt and may contain forensic evidence.


GRACE: In the cover of darkness, these two young men arrested on formal charges, indictments handed down by a grand jury that they molested, they raped a young lady, a student-turned-stripper. These two young men in question, one from New York, one from New Jersey, Collin Finnerty straight off another arrest about six months ago outside G.W. campus, an intense beating of another young man, and Reade Seligmann, 20, from Essex Falls, New Jersey, today did the perp walk. It`s a very common walk. Everyone that gets a felony indictment has go to through it. There you go! There are some celebs you may be familiar with doing the perp walk -- Robert Blake, Jason Williams. Thanks for throwing in O.J. Simpson. Can`t have a perp walk scenario without him. Oh, yes, Scott Peterson. Now, there`s the jumpsuit we`ve all come to know and love. Didn`t happen this morning. Somehow, they were dressed in their Sunday best. The perp walk goes on and on and on.

So straight back out to Jason Carroll, CNN correspondent, joining us from the courthouse. How did the press know? Did they just stake out the locations of these two? Did they get a tip? Because they got the perp walk.

CARROLL: I can tell you one thing, Nancy. Yesterday, one of my sources told me that it was his very strong belief that the arrests would take sometime in the very early morning. I`m sure I wasn`t the only one who was privy to that type of information. I think it got out. A lot of people got in place and got the shot that they were looking for.

GRACE: Well, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, to make an arrest in the super-early morning hours is not unusual. If I really wanted to get a witness, I`d have to go out to the apartment or the home around 4:00 or 5:00 AM. They`re like vampires. That`s when you catch them. So you know where you`re going to get them at that time of the morning. So it`s not really that uncommon.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it`s a good time, as you say, to get them. You don`t want to have to waste a lot of time. And I think, also, there probably was a -- I think there was probably a tip-off, if they actually came out dressed in suits. I mean, I think it was all planned.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t tell me a lot of the detail, but she did tell me that they (INAUDIBLE) raped her. And I asked her where was it at, you know, where did it happen at? And she said at that house. And then I felt horrible because that was the same place that she asked me how to get to.


GRACE: Last night, the alleged victim`s father spoke with us here, and that is what he had to say.

Straight back out to Jason Carroll, CNN correspondent. I understood you spoke with a member of the lacrosse team today?

CARROLL: That is true, Nancy. A little earlier today, I spoke with a member of the Duke lacrosse team, asked him about what he thought about the two arrests that had gone down. And he was angry, Nancy. He was pretty upset. He said that a lot of the team members could not believe that the case had come this far. They had reached out to both Collin and Reade, offering their support. You know, it was just really disbelief.

And I asked him, I said, Well, can you do some sort of an on-camera interview, and he said, Because the -- you know, the prosecution is still going after a third suspect, none of us are going to talk at this time.

GRACE: So he was angry about what?

CARROLL: I think he was angry about his teammate, someone who, you know, he considers a friend, angry, I think, you know, that this guy`s being accused, or both of these young men...

GRACE: So he`s angry about the accusation...

CARROLL: ... are being accused of this type of crime.

GRACE: ... and not the alleged rape? I mean, I would be totally beside myself that someone had committed a rape.

CARROLL: I think his -- I think it`s his point of view that a rape didn`t take place, so therefore, he has nothing to be angry about in that way. Those are -- those are his impressions. I think that`s why there`s not anger there.

GRACE: To Dale Atkins, psychologist. How hard is it -- I mean, I saw it in the Peterson case, where the parents never believed any of the state`s evidence -- for these colleagues and friends to believe something may have very well have happened?

DALE ATKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it`s very hard for these colleagues and friends because what they do is they bond together. But I`m really glad you said what you said, Nancy, about, Where is the outrage about that a rape may have taken place? And so often, these kids who really bond together feel entitled and privileged and really kind of above the rules. They don`t think they apply to them, so they want to stay together and they want to be a group, and they`re not going to talk about one another.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did tell me that three boys had raped her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wasn`t raped in that house by any of these boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... she cried all night long.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe the story. I hope the truth will come out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a very good kid, and I`m sure he`s innocent.


GRACE: This thing will not be settled until it is aired in a court of law where all the facts come out. As you know by now, all of you legal eagles, two young men on the Duke lacrosse team arrested and indicted in the case of an alleged gang rape there at the Duke University campus. We fully expect a third indictment to be handed down.

Elizabeth, let`s go through the time line. And this is the time line established by some of the lacrosse team players themselves.

11:02: There`s a group photo of the players sitting on couches, holding plastic cups -- I`m betting full of booze -- waiting for the strippers to get there.

Midnight: The two strippers almost naked in front of a very happy audience.

12:03: The women are standing, and all the guys have suddenly lost their smiles. Apparently, according to one attorney, one of the strippers slapped a player for suggesting the use of a broom as a sex toy. Well, OK, if that happened, he deserved a slap in the face.

OK, next, the two women allegedly went into the bathroom, although that is consistent with the alleged victim`s story.

Suddenly, 12:20 a.m., the women leave. The victim tries to get back in to get her pocketbook.

12:30: a photo, the alleged victim now outside. She only has on one shoe.

12:37: Victim lying on the back stoop, her elbow scraped, her ankle cut and bleeding.

12:41 a.m.: Alleged victim getting helped into the car, one of the partygoers trying to help her get into the car.

OK, Doug Burns, I bet the defense is wishing nobody had ever mentioned these photos, because, at first, when we first heard about these photos -- unless "Newsweek" is telling a big, fat lie about the photos -- we heard that she was scraped up and banged up when she came in. But now, when we take a look at their analysis of the photos...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... all of these injuries are at 12:47 a.m. and she has to be helped to her car.

BURNS: Right. Generally, the dissemination of defense theories and so forth early on is not a good idea.

GRACE: Then you`re stuck with it.

BURNS: Other people have pointed that out. I hear you say that all the time. And you`re right. Why commit to that, even with respect to an alibi? What`s the point of putting that out so early? Because alibis, as any prosecutor, like you or I can tell you, are so easily defeated. So I think some strategic mistakes are being made all around.

GRACE: You know what? I`m glad you brought that up, the theory of the alibi.

To Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio, already the defense -- and I think recklessly -- is throwing out alibis. What are they saying?

MILLER: Well, sources within the defense say that they feel very confident that they have ATM receipts, possible cell phone records, possible video surveillance, that these two suspects were not there when the alleged crime happened, Nancy.

GRACE: Two suspects or one suspect?

K. MILLER: One suspect.

GRACE: OK. So, one of them, after this incident, allegedly goes to an ATM and gets some money, takes a cab, and saves the receipt?

K. MILLER: No, Nancy. What they`re saying is that this happened during -- when this alleged crime happened, so he wouldn`t be there.

GRACE: OK. I want to change gears just one moment and go to a very special guest joining us. Her name is Charlotte Pierce-Baker, Duke professor and rape survivor.

Professor, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Professor, how...

PIERCE-BAKER: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am.

PIERCE-BAKER: I can`t hear you very well.

GRACE: Let me try again. Ma`am, how difficult is it for a rape victim to go public?

PIERCE-BAKER: It`s extremely difficult to do that. You are still afraid; you`re feeling unsafe; it`s hard to focus; and you don`t want anyone to know, even though it`s all over the media. There`s that feeling that, perhaps, you can keep -- that the silence will keep something safe that`s no longer safe and never, ever will be again.

GRACE: Professor, do you think that it is any comfort to this alleged victim that arrests have been made?

PIERCE-BAKER: I think so, yes.

GRACE: Were there ever arrests made in your case?

PIERCE-BAKER: Yes. This was 25 years ago, but, yes, an arrest was made, and the man was prosecuted. It was very, very hard to see someone have to go to jail, but it relieved me for a time. He`s still in jail.

GRACE: Professor, do you believe that rape victims always have a clear memory of what happened? I mean, sometimes things happen so quickly, and it`s so traumatizing.

PIERCE-BAKER: That`s very true. No, I think that, in my case, some of the details didn`t come back for years later.

This is a major, major trauma; rape is a heinous crime, but it wounds the soul. So you are never the same again. You can never walk the same again anywhere comfortably.

So a lot of the details come back a little bit later, after you begin to recover a little bit from that initial shock, so you can`t really tell everything. You may tell what you remember, but you may forget a few things, and have to go back, and say, "Oh, I forgot that, on that night, such and such happened."

So I think that`s very common; I know it was for me and for other women I`ve talked to who are survivors.

GRACE: Professor, please don`t leave us.

To Dale Atkins, psychologist, Dale, why is it -- and I`ve learned this myself -- that crime victims, very often, have a lack of memory sometimes before, during, and after the incident? You can remember portions of it, but sometimes you can go a lifetime and not remember the whole thing?

ATKINS: Because we have an amazing ability to try to protect ourselves, and some of what we remember, it only comes to us in pieces. And some of what we experience we don`t want to remember because it`s too difficult, it`s too traumatic, and we can`t process all of it, because how would we survive? So many of us are able to only take a little bit in at that time, and that`s what happens with memory.

GRACE: And, you know, to Professor Charlotte Pierce-Baker, my experience with crime victims is that sometimes you can never take it all in. You go a lifetime without remembering the whole thing. Professor, do you believe that you ever fully recover from a violent rape?

PIERCE-BAKER: No, I don`t. I think you get better; I think you change your life. I`m forever changed. And I don`t think I`ll ever be the way I was before.

And I worry for this victim survivor that we`re talking about that this may be the case for her. And I made a very clear photo I.D. of my perpetrators when it happened to me, and that unnerved me. It really, really did, that, oh, my god, there they are again.

And I wanted to say that, because that`s probably another thing that is happening to the survivor right now, that you realize, "Oh, my god, they do exist," because somewhere in your mind, you hope it didn`t happen, even though you have all the scars and all those things to remind you.

So it never goes away. You remember the scars; you remember the night; you remember the lighting; you remember the clouds in the sky, if it`s day time and if it`s night time; you remember the lights on the streets. It`s amazing, but it`s a forever wounding. It really is.

GRACE: With me is Charlotte Pierce-Baker, a Duke professor and a rape survivor. She`s the author of "Surviving the Silence: Black Women`s Stories of Rape."

You know, to Doug Burns, one of our two defense attorneys on the panel tonight, after having tried many, many rape cases, especially ladies on the jury, when I would be in the position of standing at the jury rail and telling them in my opening statement the facts as I knew them...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... you would actually physically see them recoil, just lean back in their chairs, cross their arms, and just stone.

BURNS: Sure.

GRACE: I mean, these facts, if they are true, are heinous. And it`s going to be a very difficult case, of course, with no DNA. That hurts the state.

What`s your experience in trying rape cases? Do you find the jurors recoil, Doug?

BURNS: I agree with you. I mean, it`s interesting. I mean, I think you had mentioned once that you tried rape cases before there really was DNA on the legal landscape.


BURNS: So obviously they did trials without DNA. If there is -- and the key point I think you made very early in the analysis of this case was that the medical exam of her shows vaginal trauma, bruising, beating, a condition consistent with a sexual assault.

If you couple that with an I.D. and they believe the I.D. beyond a reasonable doubt, then they can make out their case.

GRACE: And Nicole Deborde, I spoke to the girl`s father last night. He took the young woman to the drug store just before the incident to buy soda and candy for her kids. She had no bruises. Everything was fine.

DEBORDE: Well, and I understand all that. I think what the defense is ultimately going to end up doing in a case like this, where there is really no physical evidence in the way of DNA, is that they`re going to be dissecting every single comment she made or did not make in this case. And that`s going to be a problem, I think, for the state a little bit. It`s certainly something to consider.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you go 46 to 1, white to black -- you`re talking predominantly white team -- is egregious. And it seems to me that disbanding the team clears a space for us to reconstruct a culture of citizenship, and community, and ethics, and responsibility, and accountability at Duke University and, hopefully, become a national model.


GRACE: It`s going to be on a jury now. That`s right: indictments handed down, arrests made on at least two young men. We`re expecting yet a third indictment in the Duke lacrosse rape scandal.

Let`s go straight to Clark Goldband, our producer. What can you tell me about these two young men?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They come from some nice homes in the shadow of New York City, Nance. Let`s first start with Collin`s home. It`s in Garden City, New York...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, I`m sorry. When did you get on a first-name basis with a defendant in a rape case?

GOLDBAND: Well, I`m not.

GRACE: OK. Let`s "Mr. Finnerty." Go ahead.

GOLDBAND: OK, "Mr. Finnerty`s" home is assessed at $1,900,000...


GRACE: I`m asking you about the family. Why are you giving me $2 million? What does that mean to me?

GOLDBAND: That`s how much their house is worth, where he comes from, in Garden City, New York.

GRACE: And your point is?

GOLDBAND: I thought you would be interested in their backgrounds. We have...

GRACE: That they`re rich, is that what you`re telling me?

GOLDBAND: Well, I`m telling you they do have some nice homes, Nancy. And we also have one Reade Seligmann. His comes in at about $1,300,000, a very nice area, as well, Essex Fells.

GRACE: Where is Essex Fells? OK, where is that?

GOLDBAND: It`s about a half hour away from Manhattan on the Jersey side. So let`s take a look at the house of the parents of the alleged victim. Their home comes in at around...

GRACE: OK. Wait, wait, wait, are you trying to say that the victim is going to be outgunned by money in court?

GOLDBAND: I`m not trying to say anything, Nancy. I`m letting the stats -- make sure the stats are doing the talking.

GRACE: OK, and let me throw a stat at you.


GRACE: False rape reporting, false sex assault reporting is somewhere between the low numbers of 2 and 8 percent, OK? So you can roll all of that money together and it means not a hill of beans in my assessment of this case. Are you going to saying they`re going to hire high-priced lawyers, is that where you`re going?

GOLDBAND: I`m not going anywhere. I have some more stats for you, if you`re interested.

GRACE: OK, go ahead, go. Go, go, go.

GOLDBAND: Take a look at the incomes of these three times where all three of these players are from. In Garden City, it`s about $100,000. In Essex Fells, it`s about $150,000, which is very, very high in the United States. And in Durham, North Carolina, $43,000.

And lastly, where they went to school, if you`re interested, these two private schools, they clock in at about $23,000 each. And, of course, where the alleged victim went: it`s free.

GRACE: I want to go to Stephen Miller with the Duke Conservative Union. Stephen Miller, what`s your response to the indictments handed down and the arrests?

STEPHEN MILLER, DUKE CONSERVATIVE UNION: Well, I think I speak for many students when I say that we`re very, very concerned that two innocent people may have possibly...

GRACE: Oh, good lord!

S. MILLER: ... just had their lives ruined. You`re saying it`s not possible they`re innocent? That`s not even in the realm of possibility?

GRACE: No, I`m not saying it`s not possible, but a grand jury has heard evidence and deemed this fit to go to a trial.

S. MILLER: Right, and we`re saying that...

GRACE: And without ever hearing what the victim has to say, you`re saying the grand jury is wrong, the victim is lying...

S. MILLER: I`m not saying I`m convinced at all.

GRACE: ... and your first problem is two innocent people?

S. MILLER: I didn`t say that. I said we`re concerned that it`s possible that two innocent people may have had their lives ruined, because this case does have many irregularities...

GRACE: Do you have a sister?

S. MILLER: ... and many inconsistencies.

GRACE: Do you have a sister?

S. MILLER: Yes, I do, but I would appreciate it...

GRACE: I assume you`ve got a mother. I mean, your first concern is that somebody is falsely accused?

S. MILLER: Don`t tell me what my first concern is, please. My first concern when I first heard these allegations...

GRACE: That`s just was the first words out of your mouth. Maybe I`m crazy. I don`t wear a hearing aide.

S. MILLER: I didn`t say that was -- my first concern when I first heard these allegations was that an innocent woman had been raped. That was the first thing that came to my mind and I think came to anyone`s mind.

GRACE: But that`s not what you said tonight.

S. MILLER: But as the facts started to come out, there was many irregularities and inconsistencies that troubled me, like many other people. You`ve talked on this show about how she had bruises on her the day after.

GRACE: No, that night.

S. MILLER: But a photo taken at 12:03 before the alleged rape occurs shows that she had bruises and open sores on her body. We also have the 911 calls...

GRACE: That`s not what "Newsweek" says.

S. MILLER: At 12:03...

GRACE: Yes, that`s not what "Newsweek" says.

S. MILLER: ... in the report, it says that there are already bruises at 12:03.

GRACE: OK. Let me get another reaction from Monica Johnson-Hostler, the executive director of North Carolina Coalition Against Sex Assault.

Your response?

MONIKA JOHNSON-HOSTLER, DIR., NC COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT: I think what I would say to this, Nancy, is, as Dr. Baker spoke to earlier, that when you have rape victims, oftentimes the story would seem, as Mr. Miller just stated, irregular or inconsistent.

And I think the reality is that the story often comes back to the victim in pieces, because as Dr. Baker also said, that it`s something that you don`t necessarily want to recall and talk about at that point.

So I think that`s the first thing I want to say about this case, is we shouldn`t use the word "irregular" or "it changes," but really think to the fact that this is something that people are asking over and over again, the sexual assault nurse examiner, law enforcement, her parents, her family, everybody wants to know what`s happened.

GRACE: When we get back, Dr. Warner Spitz, forensic pathologist, and a few of your calls.

Everyone, please stay with us as we stop to remember tonight Army Sergeant Gordon Foster Misner, just 23, Colorado Springs, Colorado, killed in Iraq trying to save a group of ambushed soldiers. Gordon Foster Misner, 23, an American hero.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My client was not indicted, but I will tell you I`m very sorry for these young men that are indicted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you prove that they weren`t there when the alleged...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes, we can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can prove it?



GRACE: Welcome back. We are getting an unconfirmed report from one of our producers there in North Carolina that another search warrant has been effected -- will be effected, the return within the next 12 hours at another lacrosse player`s dorm room. We don`t know if anything was taken yet.

Dr. Warner Spitz, forensic pathologist, I`m sorry to have kept you waiting. We had so many facts to get from the reporters. But my big question, sir -- and please give us a rain check -- my big question is: What additional DNA could we possibly be waiting for?

WARNER SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I don`t think you`re really waiting for any additional DNA. That is, maybe you are waiting, but I don`t think that there`s any chance of the additional tests will upset anything that has already been established or not established.

GRACE: What about the possibility...

SPITZ: My opinion...

GRACE: ... of hair?

SPITZ: Well, maybe they have hair; I don`t know. Usually, you don`t have hair in a rape situation. There may be a hair. I`m not aware that there is.


SPITZ: If there is a hair, then, of course...

GRACE: So you think we probably won`t get anything in addition...

SPITZ: No. But there is one thing that, when I heard all the program this evening, one thing I think remains to be studied, and thoroughly studied, by somebody who knows what he`s doing, and that is a forensic pathologist who will go in, and examine the evidence, exam the pictures, study the circumstances, and attribute or not attribute the entirety of the injuries to a sexual assault.

GRACE: I think you`re right about that, Doctor.

Very quickly to Judy in New Jersey. What`s your question?

CALLER: I was just wondering: Can the fact that one of these young men was previously charged with assault be brought in at trial?

GRACE: Judy, excellent question. It`s called similar transaction. But the scenario surrounding that assault for which he got the (INAUDIBLE) -- he hasn`t done it yet -- likely will not come in.

Big thank you to all of my guests. And tonight, if you don`t agree with any of my legal opinions, blame him. Happy birthday to my dad who helped put me through law school, the greatest dad in the world.

See everybody tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.