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Nancy Grace
Conversation Between Suspects in Holloway Investigation Caught on Tape; Murder Rocks Pennsylvania Amish Country
Aired April 21, 2006 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Aruba. Search teams again try and fail to find any sign of Natalee Holloway, while a new suspect emerges, now under the microscope and behind bars. And to top it all off, a damning conversation between three suspects caught on tape.
And tonight, to the heart of Pennsylvania Amish country, an entire family of six wiped out. We track the prime suspect`s every move in the days before and after for behavioral clues in the Amish country murders.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, a family leaves the big city for the quiet life in the country, far away from crime and temptation, only to end up as victims. A young relative, Jesse Wise, Jr., stands accused of slaughtering six family members in the heart of Amish country. We track behavioral clues.
But first tonight, live to Aruba, late-breaking developments in the Natalee Holloway mystery. What can newly emerging suspect Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt reveal? Also, what did judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers fight about when they thought police weren`t listening? Well, guess what, guys? It`s all caught on tape. And tonight, we are taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: I think he was arrested because he had been talking on the beach a little bit too much.
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DIARIO": They had him arrested on two counts, one that he is involved in some way with the Natalee Holloway case, and two, that he is involved in some way with some kind of drugs being sold on the beach.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: I don`t think we`ve been able to definitively rule out that there`s not some photos that could quite possibly have Joran and the new suspect in them.
HOLLOWAY: He was at Carlos and Charlie`s that same night Natalee disappeared. He was arrested for drug charges, and he`s connected to the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe he sold some drugs. Who knows?
TWITTY: I just hope that this new suspect can, you know, give us, you know, the one break that we need in order for this mystery to unravel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. What`s the newest?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, you know, I`ll tell you, it feels like maybe a little bit of these facts are starting to close in so this`ll finally come together. Let`s first talk about Geoffrey -- still being held. There has been to be a hearing on the 25th in order for them to hold him any longer. All that authorities will say is that perhaps, in connection with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, and for possibly being involved in drugs.
Now, the other issue is the forensic evidence allegedly found on the T-shirt. It is unclear at this moment whether that does exist and whether it`s the same T-shirt that was found last June.
Does Geoffrey now Joran Van Der Sloot? Well, depends on who you ask. He denies it. They don`t know each other, is all we hear. But Natalee`s mother says that people are e-mailing her pictures that say that the two are together in photographs.
Also, there was a four-day search on the beach. Nothing came up from that. They were using, I understand, sonar and other equipment, speed boats, didn`t find anything and wouldn`t say why they were on this new- found search.
And of course, that audiotape of the suspects at the time, yelling and screaming at each other, which could tell us a lot.
GRACE: Elizabeth, can you please put up the transcript of this conversation? Do you have it for me, Liz?
And I want to go to our producer, Eric Marrapodi. He is there in Aruba. Eric, thanks for being with us, dear. Let`s talk about this transcript. Here we go. Deepak, "How does it feel, Joran?" Joran, "You have got my father arrested, friend." Deepak, "That`s what I say, how does it feel?"
Keep it going.
Joran, "You know very well my father had nothing to do with it. I read your testimony, friend." Deepak, "That is BS." Joran, "You are lying. You know what happened to that girl. If you don`t know, then nothing has happened to her. So F you." Deepak, "You just don`t give a (DELETED) about your own family." Joran, "The only thing I can think about is my family. I do what my family tells me to do."
Let`s keeping going.
Joran Van Der Sloot, "That`s the price my father paid, that you let him suffer like that. F you. If you let me suffer, that is what I`m saying, too. It doesn`t bother me at all. I can simply sit here 160 days. It does not make a damn bit of difference to me. I`m fine here." Kalpoe, "Me, too. Me, too." Joran, "And you, Satish, they`re telling me that you, jerk, see ghosts in the cell? They have told me that you saw the girl in your cell and you were scared stiff."
Keep it going, Liz.
Joran to Kalpoe brothers, "Half of what you have said is not the F-ing truth. It will come to the fore. Just as they check me, they check you, too."
Keep it going, Liz.
Joran, "Hey, you know when I will laugh? When I have given you a smack in the face. I will laugh if they find the girl alive. F you. I know very well that you`re afraid. That is, if you did something bad with the girl. And if they find the girl, then we will see." Satish, "I`m not afraid. Why must I be afraid?" Deepak, "We want them to find the girl. You`re going to talk (DELETED) about me that I buried the girl by the fisherman`s hut." "Who said anything about burying? I said nothing about burying." Deepak, "Stop with the BS." Joran, "I said nothing about burying."
Keep it going, Liz.
Deepak, "They`re going to give you 15 years if they find the girl." Joran, "For what? For what?" Deepak, "The scholarships of yours, you can forget it." Joran, "Yes, because of who? Because of you mongol. You well know that you did bad. Otherwise, you wouldn`t lie."
OK, Eric, how have we confirmed this transcript is legitimate?
ERIC MARRAPODI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, early this morning, the public prosecutor`s office here in Aruba released a statement saying that, in fact, the published reports out about this Dutch police report -- this is, again, a transcript of a taped conversation that appeared in a police report written in Dutch that was then translated into English. CNN can confirm the translation of the English is a correct translation. The public prosecutor said today, Not only is it true, but we didn`t release it, and that they are very interested to know who did release it.
We`ve learned tonight from sources close to the case that, in fact, the prosecutor`s office and police are launching an internal investigation to find out who leaked this very sensitive document.
GRACE: You know, Eric, I don`t really care who leaked it. I just want to make sure it`s legitimate. You`re telling me it is.
MARRAPODI: That`s right, Nancy. The public prosecutor says it is, in fact, a legitimate police report, and the translation is right. It`s what those boys said in the back of that police car on June 29.
GRACE: And we believe that this conversation went down when they were, in fact, cuffed together. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: These two are being kept apart in different facilities for a reason, so they can`t continue to concoct a story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, but...
GRACE: You don`t put two people together in the back seat of a car for a drive...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t...
GRACE: ... if you don`t want them to talk!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t unless they don`t know they`re being monitoring -- you`re monitoring them. It`s entirely possible that they put them together for a reason, to see what interaction they`d have, lead them to believe that they were going to be able to have a private discussion that the authorities could then listen to. They`re in jail. They don`t have a right to privacy. They`d be able to listen to what they had to say, maybe they`re hoping to learn something from that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Karl (ph) -- , Karl, you`re telling me that Van Der Sloot and Kalpoe were handcuffed together?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Handcuffed together...
GRACE: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as they were brought out of the police station.
GRACE: Gosh. David Wohl (ph), they`ve kept them in two different facilities, two different cells for a reason! Now they handcuff them together and let them take a ride in a car? Explain why this is a huge problem, David Wohl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Gee, Nancy, I don`t know.
GRACE: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe they can talk to each other and get their stories straight.
GRACE: Good Lord!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the best story wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And even then, many months ago, we speculated that either it was the dumbest thing the police had done or the smartest thing they had done, if they were being taped.
I want to go to Natalee`s father, joining us by phone from Meridien, Mississippi, Dave Holloway. Dave, thank you for being with us.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you.
GRACE: Dave, I`m sure that you`ve gone over and over this transcript. It originally emerged a couple of weeks ago. We`ve been trying to nail down and confirm it before we went public with it. What do you think is the most damning part of this conversation?
HOLLOWAY: Well, there`s a number of things. In my opinion, obviously, where Deepak says to Joran if they find out, he`s going to get 15 years. And I think what they`re doing here is kind of playing each other on, What have you said, and where are you going with these statements? Because after all, they have changed their statements so many times, and I think this is part of that process of trying to figure out, What are you going to say, and where are we going with this thing?
So you know, they were coached -- early on, they were coached tremendously by their father, and throughout the 10 days before they were arrested, that they were going to be taped, they were going to be monitored. Just watch what you say, watch what you do. And I`m sure that happened throughout this process all the way up until this recording. Whether they knew they were being recorded in the back of this police car, that`s totally unknown.
GRACE: Exactly. Well, I can guarantee you this much. If the police thought enough to tape them, put them together and tape them in this car, you know what that says to me? There are other tapes to follow. This is not the only tape, people. There are other tapes to follow. The cell phone can be bugged. The home phones can be bugged, you name it. E-mails can be retrieved, the whole shebang.
Back to Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway. Another thing that stands out to me -- it seems to me that you are correct that Joran Van Der Sloot was very well aware he could be being taped until, all of a sudden, when one of the Kalpoe brothers says, You`re the one that said buried her. And he went, Wa -- wa -- wa -- I never said anything about burying! And he goes, Yes, you did. I think that is damning!
HOLLOWAY: Yes, that was said. Joran said that early on in the investigation, in fact, led police to the scene. So -- and I think Deepak was -- Deepak or Satish, whichever one was calling him on that, just figure out just how far he`s gone with it.
GRACE: I want to go back to Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father. Let`s talk about the newly emerging suspect, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt. How do you think he fits in? You have stood by the fact that these three, Joran Van Der Sloot, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, are the three correct suspects. But where did this guy fit in?
HOLLOWAY: Well, that`s a good question. The police arrested him Saturday. He was detained for another eight days. You know, the security guard T-shirt -- from what I understand, he did not work for the security guard company at that time. In fact, he worked for Red Sailboat (ph), which is -- was docked right behind the Holiday Inn at the time. So where he fits into this scheme of things, I haven`t figured that out just yet.
GRACE: Well, what about a drug connection? We know that he is looking at -- we`ve heard that he is looking at some drug charges.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. He`s -- they charged him with some drug charges, so what those drugs are or whatever, it`s unclear at this point in time.
GRACE: OK.
HOLLOWAY: So I don`t know the exact type of drugs that he was involved in.
GRACE: Well, you know, it`s very...
HOLLOWAY: I have my suspicions, but...
GRACE: What are your suspicions?
HOLLOWAY: I think it`s probably date rape drugs.
GRACE: I`m thinking...
HOLLOWAY: But we don`t know.
GRACE: ... date rape, GHB, gamma hydroxy buterate (ph), possibly ecstasy. It could even be something as simple as Ambien. It could be Valium. But when you mix that with a lady`s drink...
Let me go to Eric Marrapodi, our producer there in Aruba. Eric, what do we know about any drug charges that are going to be leveled about this newly emerging suspect, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt?
MARRAPODI: Nancy, when the prosecutor released the statement that they had, in fact, arrested what was then GVC, it said that it was charges related to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and that they were also holding him on drug charges.
Now, we don`t know what those drug charges are, and there`s a lot of speculation on the island. Now, this is a big town in a lot of places, and even today, Karen Shipman (ph) and I, another producer for our program, we were driving around town and someone offered us cocaine. So drugs are (INAUDIBLE) here, a lot of the energies of the police force generally go when they`re not working on cases like this one.
GRACE: You know, what`s interesting, Eric? Eric, everybody, got us this video that you`re looking -- exclusive to our show. This is Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt, the newly emerging suspect, trying to cover his face with a hoodie. Where is he coming from, Eric?
MARRAPODI: The shot you`re looking at, Nancy, that`s the Nord (ph) police station, not too far from the Van Der Sloot home and not too far from the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying when she was here on the island in May. That`s the Nord police station, and that`s also where the task force for the Aruban police that`s handling this case is based.
GRACE: Back to Eric Marrapodi. Eric, have you noticed how everybody is saying, I don`t know him. Nobody knows each other, OK? That`s the first thing they all say. Joran Van Der Sloot doesn`t know anybody. Nobody knows Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt. Steve Croes, the party boat deejay -- he doesn`t know anybody. They`re falling over themselves to give public statements that they don`t know each other.
But tell me, where did these two go to high school? Where did they hang out, Joran Van Der Sloot and Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt? There`s only about 100,000 people on this island. You`ve got the Surinamese. You have the Dutch. And it`s hard for me to believe that Van Cromvoirt and Van Der Sloot, two Dutch boys one year apart, don`t know anybody on this tiny -- don`t know each other on this tiny island.
MARRAPODI: Yes, Nancy, it is kind of hard to believe that these two might not have known each other, might not have run in the same circles. But at this point, all we can go on is the statements by Mr. Van Cromvoirt`s attorney, who said he doesn`t know any of the three suspects, and what Joran Van Der Sloot has said since this new suspect emerged, which is he doesn`t know anyone.
We know that Joran Van Der Sloot went to school not far from here. He went to high school here, and he was planning on heading to the United States to attend college. At this point, we don`t know where Geoffrey went to school, went to high school. It may have been Holland. It may have been here.
We know Geoffrey was on the island as late as December of 2004, which would have been a few months before Natalee went missing. We know he was working down the beach, on the hotel strip, at a water sports place where you can do para-sailing and other water activities.
But at this point, it hasn`t surfaced as to where Geoffrey e went to high school. And quite frankly, Nancy, it`s hard to find anyone on this island, as we`ve scoured, who will even acknowledge that they know who he is, let alone anything about him.
GRACE: Boy, they are really rolling up the sidewalks. Nobody knows anything. Nobody knows anybody. Nobody`s talking. But I can tell you this much. If this tape exists, there will be others to follow.
Hey, Elizabeth, have you got us set up for the phone calls yet? We`ll be taking your calls when we come back.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." The second dancer at the Duke lacrosse party speaks out. Kim Roberts claims she originally did not believe the accuser`s rape allegations, but now she`s changed her mind. She declares she did not do enough to help the accuser, a 27-year-old college student-turned-stripper, a mother of two. Defense lawyers claim Roberts is changing her story to get better treatment.
Roberts also contacted a New York PR firm. That`s not going to help on cross-exam. The letter reads, "I`ve found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in country. I`m worried about letting this opportunity" -- hello! There`s an alleged gang rape! -- "this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it, and I was wondering if you had any advice on how to help me spin this to my advantage."
She later asked the press, quote, "Why shouldn`t I profit? I didn`t ask to be in this position. I`d like to feed my daughter." Get ready for cross-examination, Kim!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARRAPODI: Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt was being questioned at about 6:00 o`clock. They brought him out of that police station and started to transport him down to the Kia (ph) prison on the other side of the island. As soon as he saw us jump out with the camera, he threw his hoodie up and put his cuffs in front of his face. It was clearly him, and they took him away tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The new suspect behind bars and under the microscope. Straight to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. A lot of theories floating around out there. You`re the expect. Where does Van Cromvoirt fit in on the evidence we have right now, to Natalee`s disappearance?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, my guess, Nancy, is it fits absolutely nowhere. I think he was probably picked up on a drug connection, and that`s all there is to it. I think he`s a smokescreen.
Let`s take a look at the situation. If we go to the true story of Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers, the true story where he leaves Natalee on the beach, and that`s the only bad thing he ever did, he left her on the beach and he walked away, and there was she was alone, the only person who could have attacked Natalee then was somebody who happened to be on the beach.
It doesn`t matter if they did drugs. It doesn`t matter if they worked for a company. It doesn`t matter if they knew anybody. They would simply have to be at that location at that time.
So why this particular suspect would have been there more than anybody else makes no sense. So unless they had an actual person who sighted him, a witness who sighted him on the beach at the time she was there, which I don`t believe is true, or he said he was there, which I don`t believe is true, I think we simply have the fact that we got to do something about all these problems we`re having with this case. Let`s get a new suspect in, and then we`ll have some reasonable doubt and then we can stop all this pressure we`re getting.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on. Here`s another point. Here`s another point. I`m going to go to Dave Holloway about the T-shirt in just a moment. But have you noticed, whenever there`s a dead body, suddenly people begin to be clairvoyant? For instance, Scott Peterson suddenly knew a month ahead of time that this would be his fist Christmas without his wife. He would be a widower. And then, of course, who could forget O.J. Simpson, who began having dreams that he could commit murder. Whoo!
And now, here we have it. You`ve got this transcript of a police bugging of these guys in the car, and the Kalpoe brother -- to Dave Holloway -- says he`s seeing Natalee`s ghost, and it`s scaring him behind bars. Now, what do you think, guilty conscience? Has he become clairvoyant? Or is he responsible?
HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, I was thinking about that. If he saw a ghost, apparently, he knows -- you know, I`ve always said this. They know a lot more than what they told the police or a lot more than what all of us know, and the viewers who are watching.
You know, it all goes back to some of those statements I read, where all three of them had the same statement where she was falling asleep approximately 20 minutes after she got into the car or at some time, and then she fell -- she was totally out of it coming back from the lighthouse. And they said there was approximately a two-minute stretch where, you know, she was asleep.
And then, of course, publicly, Joran comes out and says that he`s walking her on the beach and all this kind of stuff. So you know, which gives? You know, was she out of it, or was she conscious and walking on the beach with Joran and decided to stay there?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLOWAY: He was arrested because he had been talking on the beach a little bit too much, and some of these tips that came out from this Dutch show -- which coincidentally aired the same time my book came out. And you`ll probably see some other people that`s listed in my book probably get involved in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Aruba tonight as a new suspect is under the microscope and behind bars.
Liz, let`s go to the lines. Let`s go to Rhonda in Michigan. Hi, Rhonda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have so much respect for you!
GRACE: Bless you. Tell the defense bar.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: What`s your question, sweetie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do they have any DNA from the T-shirt that shows any connection between Natalee and any of the known suspects?
GRACE: Rhonda, you just stole my next point. I`m going to go to Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father, is with us tonight. Dave, what do you make of this T-shirt? There is an actual shot of the T-shirt. We don`t know what kind of DNA is on it. We don`t know what kind of evidence is on it. But do you believe, Dave, have they led you to believe the significance of this T-shirt?
HOLLOWAY: No, they haven`t. They found the shirt early on, I think within days after Natalee disappeared. But if it`s related to this GVC -- at this time, it doesn`t look like it is, but you know, who knows. I understand that he was working with a boat company at the time and didn`t get involved with his father`s business until a little later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you leave a girl on the beach?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, LAST SEEN WITH NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I told her I had to go home; I had school the next day. And I thought maybe she would understand. She told me, no, she wanted me to stay there with her, because the next day she was leaving, and she wanted to stay there the whole night.
I told her, no, I had to go. I even lifted her up to carry her back to the hotel, and she told me put her down. I left her, I sat down next to her, talk to her a while. If I had that moment back, I would have made sure she got back to her hotel safely, but I can`t change that now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Then, Mr. Van Der Sloot, why were you worried about getting 15 years behind bars, according to this transcript of you yakking with the Kalpoe brothers?
I want to go now to Renee Rockwell, Renee Rockwell, a defense attorney. Where does Van Cromvoirt fit in, this new suspect?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, three things come about when I think about him. First of all, we know that, because he`s charged, he had access to drugs. Secondly, he worked on the beach. He had access to boats, thus maybe the removal of the body. Lastly, it might be some type of a maneuver for the police to get him in jail and start leaning on him to perhaps see if he can give some evidence against these prior suspects.
The one thing I cannot believe is, on an island so small, that these three guys, these four guys don`t know each other.
GRACE: And, you know, as Shakespeare said, "Methinks thou doest protest too much," Dr. Lisa Weinstock, psychiatrist. The very first thing that comes out of their mouth and all of their attorneys, "We don`t know him. Nobody knows nobody on the whole island."
LISA WEINSTOCK, PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely.
GRACE: I don`t buy it.
WEINSTOCK: Absolutely. I mean, if the first thing that`s coming out of their mouth is denying that, before anyone`s even asked them about it, you know, you`ve got to wonder, what are they so worried about?
GRACE: To Rahul Manchanda, our international law expert, Rahul, they now want to hold this guy, Van Cromvoirt, eight more days. It`s completely bass-ackwards to our system where everything is made public, you know why you`re under arrest. Here they go by initials; they keep everything secret.
In fact, sometimes I think you don`t even have to be a suspect. You can just be a witness, and they`ll throw you in the can.
RAHUL MANCHANDA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s exactly right. In Aruba, it`s under the Dutch legal system. And over there, it`s reasonable suspicion. And they can incarcerate you for up to 146 days without charging you with a crime.
And it`s much different here. I mean, once you`re arrested here, if there`s probable cause to arrest you, you`re in. But here, it`s a much different system.
GRACE: And back to Eric Marrapodi, our producer there in Aruba, Eric, tell me about the dive searches, the search of the water. You think they`re a little too late? We`re coming up on a year now.
MARRAPODI: Yes, that`s right. It was Easter Sunday that the coast guard was back in the water using side-scan sonar. And we`re told by a source at the coast guard they were also using divers in an area off the hotel strip where the Marriott Hotel is, where Joran says he left Natalee Holloway, and the Holiday Inn where she was staying in.
And those searches, we`re told by that source at the coast guard, he said they came up empty-handed.
GRACE: To Vito Colucci, private investigator with Colucci Investigations, I have dived fairly extensively throughout that area, and they do have a lot of strong currents. You can drift-dive a lot, in other words, ride with the current.
But a year later, Vito? The fact that they`re still searching a year later right around the Holiday Inn, the hotel strip where she was staying, does that suggest to you they believe Natalee`s body was weighted down, a la Laci Peterson`s, to think they could still find something a year later?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: Well, that`s a good point. And don`t forget what we have here: The former chief, Dompig, he`s history. He`s off the case.
I have to admit, after 11 months, I`m impressed with this new guy. He seems to be pulling out all of the stops. He even gives a little dig to Dompig by saying they had information on this Geoffrey a long time ago.
So I`m impressed. He`s trying everything on this, Nancy, so I`m going to give him the benefit of the doubt, the first time I`m optimistic on this case at all.
GRACE: Let`s go to Sharon in Ontario. Hi, Sharon.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
CALLER: OK, the question is: Is there any concrete evidence that Natalee has been killed?
GRACE: No, there is not. There is no body; there is no evidence of a crime.
But to Dave Holloway, Natalee`s father who is with us tonight, Dave, you of all people should have an idea as to whether Natalee is still alive.
HOLLOWAY: Well, as time goes on, that glimmer of hope certainly has started to fade. The FBI told us on June the 10th this was a homicide case. The Arubans finally admitted sometime in September, Octoberish that it was being investigated from a homicide point of view, as well.
GRACE: Dave, I just want to apologize to you. With us is Natalee`s father. We`re all so used to prosecuting and defending murder cases, analyzing evidence. I know it must be hard for you to hear us go through the evidence and try to make sense of it, and I want to thank you again for being with us.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you, and I appreciate everyone`s prayers and support.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
Speaking of Dompig, who was running the investigation, back to Eric Marrapodi there in Aruba, what`s the deal on Dompig`s son?
MARRAPODI: Well, Nancy, shortly after Geoffrey van Cromvoirt was taken into custody, the speculation went wild on this island that Dompig, Gerald Dompig`s son, Michael Dompig, was the next one to be arrested, that he was coming down the pike.
And the speculation went so wild that this week Dompig finally spoke out in the Aruban newspapers. He told "Bon Dia Aruba," that, hey, look, yes, Michael Dompig, my son, knew Geoffrey van Cromvoirt. Yes, they worked together, but that doesn`t mean that they`re friends.
He also said that his son, Michael Dompig, has given a statement to police regarding this case. He said his son is not a suspect, but that he has been questioned by police in regards to this case. He`s also said that if the speculation about his son continues, that he even hinted to "Bon Dia," the newspaper here in Aruba, that civil action may follow.
GRACE: Why was Dompig taken off the investigation, Eric?
MARRAPODI: Well, Nancy, we don`t know exactly why. We can put together some of the pieces.
Shortly before he was taken off the case, he did that very wide- ranging interview with "48 Hours," where he made some very speculative statements that so far -- we haven`t been able to see any proof of that. And it was not long after that that he was taken off the case.
GRACE: I want to go to Sheila in Maryland. Hi, Sheila.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I wanted to know: Have any of these boys been given a lie detector test?
GRACE: Interesting. Do we have any knowledge of that, Dave Holloway? Have there been any lie detector tests?
HOLLOWAY: No, they don`t use lie detector tests in Aruba.
GRACE: And, of course, Joe Lawless, even here in America, lie detectors are not admissible into court, unless both sides stipulate upfront that they will be allowed, right?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not admissible, unless there`s a stipulation. They`re generally used as an investigative tool. But, Nancy, what you`ll see if there will be a defense polygraph and then there will be a prosecution polygraph, and nine times out of 10 they`ll be diametrically opposed results. So, no, they`re not admissible. And I personally don`t think they`re that reliable.
GRACE: Joe, how do you see Van Cromvoirt fitting in? We know two things: We know that, by the way they were describing Natalee that evening, she may have had some type of drug slipped into her drink, all right, may. It sounds a lot like GHB, the date rape drug, gamma hydroxybutyrate.
LAWLESS: Right.
GRACE: We also know Van Cromvoirt is facing charges of drugs. OK, two and two. Does is that still equal four, Joe Lawless?
LAWLESS: There`s something going on here, Nancy. I don`t know what it is. I`m impressed...
GRACE: You`ve got to do better than that, buddy. "Something`s going on"? Yes, you`re right.
(CROSSTALK)
LAWLESS: I`m impressed with the fact they have tapes that we haven`t heard. I think you`re going to find...
GRACE: OK, that`s just me speculating, OK?
LAWLESS: No, I think you`re right. I can`t imagine their not having these kinds of tapes. The fact that they haven`t found out yet, though, I find troubling, because if there was something incriminating, if they had something they could use, why haven`t we heard it?
I don`t know where this kid fits in, but I think they`re going to sit on him and try to twist his arm.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell, why do people keep yakking when you know darn well you could be -- have you ever listened to the mob tapes? They go, "Hey, you know we`re being taped," and they proceed to blah, blah, blah about their case.
ROCKWELL: Maybe they, just in their own genius way, think they can talk the police out of looking at them or suspecting them. But looking at these three guys, they were separated. That was all just very well- planned, not to put them together.
And all of a sudden, they put them altogether in the back of the car. That`s the oldest trick in the book, that they were going to be taped. They should have known that.
GRACE: To Lisa Weinstock, why do people who know they could be being taped keep yakking?
WEINSTOCK: Well, oftentimes, they`re in denial. They think that they can outwit the police. They think that they know better. They think that what they`re saying may not put them in any vulnerable position.
So it could be that. It could also be that these kids are naive. They`re not career criminals, and they may not really have been thinking that under the stress of the situation.
GRACE: To our producer, our Internet reporter, Clark Goldband, could Joran Van Der Sloot have crossed paths with Van Cromvoirt?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in fact, Nancy, I think there`s a high chance. It`s highly possible. Let`s show you why.
The population there in Aruba is 110,000. So how big is 110,000? It`s like Waco, Texas. Now, fine, 110,000, not so large. I`ll tell you why.
First, they`re Dutch, so that subdivides them even more. Then they`re in a higher social class, subdivides them even more. And, lastly, Nancy, they`re white. So, again, you have this large group of 110,000 you`re starting with, but surely their paths may have crossed sometime down there on the island of Aruba.
There`s over 40 nationalities in Aruba. And, don`t forget, the size of the island is 70 square miles, Nancy. That`s about the land size of Washington, D.C.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: There`s just so many different connections that it`s just frightening. And, you know, I don`t even know for certain -- I don`t think we`ve been able to definitely rule out that there`s not some photos that could quite possibly have Joran and the new suspect in them. I`m not certain of that at all, but it certainly appears that he may be in some.
And, you know, and also it`s kind of frightening to us to hear about his connections with the father having control of the security cameras on the island, because, after all, you know the Holiday Inn security cameras were not working that night that the suspects took Natalee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An arrest has been made in the deaths at 81 East Main Street.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect now charged with six counts of criminal homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An instrument was recovered, and it will be analyzed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our six victims are identified as follows: Emily Wise, Wanda Wise, Arlene Wise, Skyler Wise, Jesse James Wise, Chance Wise, a male, age 5.
In police custody at this time and charged with six counts of criminal homicide is Jesse D. Wise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Murder has rocked Pennsylvania Amish country. In a community where they try to shut out worldly temptation, violence and evil, it intruded.
Straight to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. Bring us up to date, friend.
LALAMA: Well, all right. He`s still being held, as you know, and he`s told police he did it. Now, the question is: Will he qualify for the death penalty?
But you know what, Nancy? I think a lot of people are not aware that this is not something that just came out of the blue with Jay Wise, Jr., in terms of having a criminal problem.
I mean, this guy was arrested six different times. I think between the years of 2004 and 2005, there were 21 counts against him, all kinds of offenses, including robbery, forceful robbery. And he was facing a court date on that.
Now, also, the interesting thing is that he spent days with his girlfriend after this crime was apparently committed, and she didn`t detect a thing. She told police: The only thing I saw was that I noticed he was driving his grandfather`s 1982 Mercedes. But we watched movies. We played with our little baby, 11 months old. We went to McDonald`s. We went to the movies. We got a hotel room. He said he just wanted to get away.
And, also, he actually stayed in the house with the six dead bodies for some time. And, as has been mentioned, you know about the hammer, the blood on the wall, and the metal homemade weapon, as well.
GRACE: Let`s go through the time line that Pat Lalama is referring to. Elizabeth, can you get that up for me?
Friday, this is while, during this time, the days before, during, and after, he bludgeons six people to death, according to police. He went to McDonald`s, went to the movies, said, "I caught a little `ATL` action, starring Big Boi about Big Boi growing up in Atlanta."
Then spent the night at -- whoop, can you go back? I was still on the first day. There you go. Spent the night at a hotel, leaves the hotel twice. He`s holed up at a hotel with his, I guess, 19-year-old girlfriend.
Then, all right, here we go. Jesse allegedly murders the family, and then we go to the next day. Stops back by McDonald`s for a little Happy Meal action, drops girlfriend at home, brings back a movie, brings back "National Security," starring Martin Lawrence, plays with daughter.
The next day, Jackie skips high school to spend more time with Jesse hanging out at the house.
Dr. Lisa Weinstock, help me out. In between this fun-filled weekend, he goes home and bludgeons the whole family to death, wraps them up in blankets, and leaves them in the basement?
WEINSTOCK: Yes, I mean, it`s so hard for anyone to understand how someone can behave in this action, how they can do such a violent, such a gruesome act, and then come back and act so completely normal.
And, you know, without knowing his motive, it makes it even harder to really understand this act. But it is possible that, without any remorse, with lack of conscience, he was able to sort of block out what he did and go back to his quote, unquote, "regular life" with his girlfriend...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, you know, Joe Lawless, bye-bye insanity defense.
LAWLESS: Well, possibly bye-bye the insanity defense, Nancy. But here in Pennsylvania -- and this happened just down the road from where I live, actually -- they have a verdict called "guilty but mentally ill," which is a lower level of insanity. If a defendant is suffering from a mental defect, that he can`t appreciate the quality of his actions, he could be found not guilty.
GRACE: Well, if he could drive through a drive-in and get a Happy Meal, to Brent Lovelace, what`s next? I think I`ve got Brett Lovelace with me.
BRETT LOVELACE, REPORTER, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER-JOURNAL": Yes, Nancy?
GRACE: Brett, what`s next?
LOVELACE: Next, Nancy, is the police released the crime scene on Wednesday. They finished the forensic analysis of the house. Today, in court documents released later this afternoon that I just finished reviewing a short time ago, it was determined that, after he strangled his grandmother, he stole her credit card and went to a Wal-Mart and a Burlington Coat Factory for a shopping spree.
GRACE: OK, Renee, what are you going to do with that?
ROCKWELL: Well, I mean, certainly the crime itself is so heinous that you would think nobody normal did something like this, but here you go. He`s wrapped the bodies up in comforters, and he`s even slept in the house where the dead people are.
GRACE: OK, not normal I don`t think cuts it, even in that jurisdiction.
Quick break, everybody, but I want to remind you live coverage at Court TV, an Ohio priest accused of killing a nun a quarter-century ago. He goes to court, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us as we remember Marine Corporal Adam Zanutto, 26, of California, killed in a roadside bomb, third tour of duty, Iraq. He had been studying criminal justice. An American flag flew outside his house his entire life. Adam Zanutto, just 26, tonight an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Man, what a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Sealed indictments handed down in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation. Who, what, where, why, and when? Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty arrested, booked and charged in the alleged gang rape of a 27-year-old student-turned-stripper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re very, very concerned that two innocent people may have possibly just had their lives ruined.
GRACE: Oh, good lord!
Natalee Holloway, the Alabama beauty who disappeared on her high school senior trip, a new arrest. His name, Geoffrey van Cromvoirt.
HOLLOWAY: It looks like a positive move. Maybe this is a steppingstone for other things to come.
GRACE: Is there finally justice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One defendant did waive his right to appeal before the court.
GRACE: If I were charged with a vicious attack on another person like this, you`d better bet I would show my face in court and say, "Not guilty! Bring it on!" I would be in there screaming, "Not guilty!" I don`t care if she`s a stripper; I don`t care if she`s Mother Teresa.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: A 19-year-old Aruban man, arrested in connection with Natalee`s disappearance, named a suspect.
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: I just hope that this new suspect can give us, you know, the one break that we need in order for this mystery to unravel.
GRACE: Take a look at these outfits. These guys were decked out like they`re on the front of J. Crew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they were put in holding pens, ostensibly they were in prison outfits, I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A t-shirt with blood on it was found back in June on the south side of the island during searches for Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you can throw the shirt away. We have pretty good evidence he was at Carlos and Charlie`s that same night Natalee disappeared. He wouldn`t be wearing a security shirt out like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to arrest the wrong person in any case; I only want to arrest the right person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was prosecuted as a witch-hunt from the beginning. People presumed their guilt. And, in America, we don`t do that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Thank you to all of my guests tonight, and thank you to the Melanie Ilene Rieger Memorial Foundation for having me with them on Wednesday, and the Molly Bish Foundation for this, a victim under the hand of a Good Shepherd. Thank you.
But thank you to you for inviting us into your homes. A special good night from the New York control room. Good night, Liz. Good night, Jennifer. See you guys Monday.
I hope to see you here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
