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Nancy Grace

Suspect Released by Aruban Police; BTK`s Special Privileges

Aired April 24, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, more breaking news in the Natalee Holloway case, yet another named suspect released by Aruban police. And, in the last 24 hours, another man arrested, questioned released. We are live in Aruba to take another hard look at the Aruban police. And remember the BTK serial killer, Bind Torture and Kill. He`s now getting special privileges behind bars. That jailhouse in contempt.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, bind torture killer. Dennis Rader, brutal BTK serial killer getting all sorts of special privileges behind bars. Dog catcher turned rock star.

But first tonight, breaking news, live to Aruba and more stunning developments in the Natalee Holloway case, two new suspects, already arrested, questioned, and released. That`s right, tonight, another arrest and release in the last 24 hours. Aruban cops hot on the trail, or just another round of keystone cops? Tonight, on Aruba and BTK, we are taking your calls.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER: I just hope that this new suspect can give us, you know, the one break that we need in order for this mystery to unravel.

GRACE: Does Geoffrey know Joran van der Sloot, well, depends on who you ask. He denies it.

TWITTY: We know that these three suspects are the last known individuals to be seen with Natalee alive and we know of the countless stories and lies that they have given the authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These three boys, know more. I have seen numerous discrepancies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that some of the police want to settle the case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation is about finding the truth. So, even if people get angry, people don`t like us anymore, we just want to do our job. But, it is not an easy project.


GRACE: Straight down to Aruba, standing by Jossy Mansur, the managing director and editor of "Diario Magazine." Welcome back Jossy. Jossy, another suspect arrested, questioned and released over the weekend?

JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, DIARIO: Yes, Nancy, there was a person on Saturday. They detained him, they kept him for about six hours, they questioned him during the six hours and then they released him.

GRACE: Who was he, Jossy? Jossy, who was he?

Okay. I think -- I think -- hey, Rosey, see if you can connect Jossy back with me. Let`s go to Eric Marrapodi, our producer there. Eric, who is this guy?

ERIC MARRAPODI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there are two ways to put this. We just don`t know at this point. We`re told he was brought in for questioning by police and later arrested, held for about six hours. They said it was part of that going back and taking a look at everyone involved. He had not been questioned before. First, we heard that he was D.B. by prosecutors, they later sent out another release and corrected his initials to A.B. So right now, no one quite knows who A.B. is other than he was arrested and detained for six hours and questioned in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

GRACE: Do we know any connection whatsoever to the last arrestee, Van Cromvoirt?

MARRAPODI: You know, Nancy, we don`t have that answer tonight and police investigators, prosecutors, they aren`t putting that link together, either.

GRACE: What can you tell me, Eric, about Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, he has been released, as well?

MARRAPODI: Yeah that`s right, Nancy. About 10:04 this morning, Geoffrey van Cromvoirt walked out of the downtown Aranjastad police station, open arms, and he was released from police custody. Authorities said they just didn`t have enough to continue to hold him.

We were all waiting here in Aruba for a hearing that was scheduled for tomorrow. Remember his eight days of detention were up and he was scheduled to go before a judge tomorrow. Didn`t even make it to that hearing, they just didn`t have enough evidence to hold him and he walked free. We did learn tonight from a source close to the investigation that he was talking, he did give a statement to police and authorities close to the case, a source close to the case, tell us tonight that he was cooperative with the authorities.

GRACE: Hmm. Well, what is the latest, Eric Marrapodi on Dompig, he was running the investigation and now is off the investigation? How many times has his son been taken in for questioning on the Holloway case?

MARRAPODI: You know, I talked to Gerold Dompig today and he said, Nancy, I wish everyone would just leave my son alone. We did learn over the weekend he did speak with the "Associated Press" and he told the "Associated Press" that his son had been questioned once prior to Geoffrey van Cromvoirt being arrested and once since Geoffrey van Cromvoirt had been arrested. Remember Nancy, Dompig came out in an article with Bon Dia last week saying, hey, yes, my kid knows Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, he worked with him but that it doesn`t mean that they`re friends. He also adamantly said my son, Michael Dompig, is not a suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Dompig had to say.

MICHAEL DOMPIG, EX POLICE COMMISSIONER: This investigation is about finding the truth. It`s not about me. It`s not about the prosecutor. So, even if people get angry, people don`t like us anymore, we just want to do our job and we understand the family and we sympathize with them. But, it is not an easy project. I am convinced that these three boys know more and I just want to mention, without going into details, that I have numerous -- I have seen numerous discrepancies and that`s just not to use the word "lies" but numerous discrepancies in the statements of these boys.

GRACE: It`s Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, Dave, thank you for being with us. Now, isn`t that just ironic that you have the former head of the investigation saying that these three original suspects, van der Sloot and the two Kalpoe brothers, well basically lied? He`s referring to it as inconsistencies. You know, I`ve got my J.D., not my D.D.S., I don`t know how to pull a tooth. But why couldn`t he come out with that while he was in charge of the investigation, Dave?

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: Well, that`s a good question. You know, everything always points back to the three suspects. You know, this Geoffrey guy, I told you last week that, if they detain him an additional eight days, we may have something. If they let him go, then you know that he didn`t provide much information to the police and that apparently is the case.

GRACE: To Clark Goldband. Clark, I want to talk about all of the various people that have been caught and released. Again, the news out of Aruba tonight, not just one but two people, two additional people in 72 hours have been arrested, questioned, and released in the Natalee Holloway investigation. Clark, what can you tell us about all the people that have been caught and released in Aruba?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: I can tell you, Nancy, there is nine of them now, so let`s go through one by one. It`s going to take a little while, cause as you see this list keeps expanding and expanding. First, of course, John and Jones, the two security guards who were detained right away and of course they were set free one week later.

GRACE: And they were detained, Dave Holloway, strictly on the word of Joran van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers, correct?

HOLLOWAY: That`s correct.

GRACE: Because those three, the chief suspects claim these two innocent minority security guards were last seen with Natalee Holloway, they came up with a fantastic story, a very long and in detailed scenario about how they led her away and she tripped and fell and they watched her fall and they kept going with her and that`s the last they saw of Natalee. That was quite an involved statement. They had it down to times, locations, and pointed these two out. Remember that, Dave Holloway?

HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes, oh, yes.

GRACE: Okay. So after that arrest and release, what then?

GOLDBAND: Well, we had the three that we usually speak about Joran van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers all taken in at the same time, Nancy, but Joran was held for about three months, the longest, the Kalpoes set free five days after. Then they decided we should take him in again. So they were caught and released twice in the scenario. Next after the Kalpoe brothers we have Steve Croes, he was the party boat D.J., you remember, he appeared on our program. Croes was held for about 10 days. After that, Joran`s dad Paulus van der Sloot, the judge, he was taken in Nancy for about nine days he was then released without anything to come of that.

GRACE: I think you should show the picture of his back side, because that`s the side we most, of, the judge.

GOLDBAND: Of course.

GRACE: Of course, that could be said of a lot of judges, Clark. Go ahead.

GOLDBAND: I`ll abstain from comment on that one Nancy. Geoffrey von Cromvoirt, he of course, caught the 15th of this month, set free on the 24th and, of course, now this new person, we don`t have a photo of this person, Nancy, all we have are two initials and now just realized three hours ago, these are the right initials, A.B., six hours is how long this person was held for.

GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur, the director and editor of "Diario Magazine." Jossy you`re there on the scene. What possible connection was there between A.B., the last catch and release and the investigation of Natalee Holloway?

MANSUR: You know, I can`t imagine what kind of connection it could have. I know that this person that they`ve arrested and questioned for six hours has a Web site in which he appears, in which you`ll find pictures of Joran and many other girls. Maybe there is some kind of a connection that the police want to know or the prosecution as to what degree does he know these people and what would he know about the Holloway case itself?

GRACE: To Eric Marrapodi, our producer there in Aruba. Now I believe -- correct me if I`m wrong -- "Good Morning America" reported a cab driver`s tip led to Von Cromvoirt`s arrest. Could you confirm that, Eric?

MARRAPODI: That`s right, "ABC" did report that this morning on their program "Good Morning America" that a female cab driver who wished to remain anonymous had Natalee Holloway in her cab driving around here on the island when they were here back in May and they were talking about possibly that Natalee was in love with a Dutch boy with blue eyes. Natalee`s friends remembered that conversation and told police when they were later questioned that his name began with a "G." The story goes that "ABC" reported that this cab driver then phoned in that tip later on and a friend confirmed it and that`s why they brought in Geoffrey.

Now sources close to the investigation tell me tonight that that story`s bogus, it`s just not true, that`s not the reason Geoffrey von Cromvoirt was brought in. So getting conflicting reports here on the island, depending on who you talk to, as to why this young man was brought in. Remember, law enforcement sources close to the case told us last week you can`t count that t-shirt out just yet, that VCB t-shirt that was found back in June. Remember VCB is a security company that Geoffrey von Cromvoirt`s father Wilhelm von Cromvoirt owned and operates here on the island.

GRACE: Hey, you got to work on that Dutch a little bit, Eric, okay. Wilhelm von Cromvoirt, please we`ve been practicing it all afternoon. To Dave Holloway, there is one story, then there`s the next, the cab driver said this, the cab driver retracts that. What are they telling you, Dave?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I hadn`t heard anything about the cab driver. You know, that`s -- you know, you hear all kinds of stuff. I heard he was saying something out on a beach and someone overheard it that "America`s Most Wanted" was, you know, was the tip that got him arrested. You know, who knows? I just hope that when they did arrest him, that he was able to give pertinent and good information to the police and maybe somebody else will be arrested.

GRACE: Dave, did you get your hopes up when you found out Von Cromvoirt had been taken into custody and then A.B. or E.B., they are changing the initials on us, over the weekend had been taken into custody, only to find out they had both been released?

HOLLOWAY: No. That question was asked and posed of me last week when he was first arrested. Someone asked me, are you getting your hopes up high and I said, no, I`ve seen this process occur a number of times before. Arrest someone, talk to them, and then release them. And it`s a pattern that, I`m hopeful that this is a stepping stone. Maybe he provided some good information, who knows.

GRACE: But Dave, what do you believe led to the additional searches there near the fishermen huts and then out in the water?

HOLLOWAY: I think it has to do with the boat theory. You know, after all, we`ve searched all the land a number of times by air and, you know, by foot. And it keeps coming up, over and over again, even from the assistant prosecutor early on in the case that a boat was used to, you know, take Natalee out in the ocean. And that continues to come up, over and over again. And, you know, I think it needs to -- someone needs to give it some attention.

GRACE: Well, Dave Holloway, aren`t there logs and isn`t there surveillance in place in Aruba of all the ships that go out of the tiny island, even at night?

HOLLOWAY: Well, there is but on one of those nights, I think it was June the 7th or June the 8th, the electricity went out on the island for about two hours so you wonder if that would have been the prime opportunity to do it. Small boats, I don`t think, can be picked up as well as the big ones.

GRACE: Everyone, joining us is Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway and they`re on Aruba not only our producers but Jossy Mansur. When we come back we`ll bring in the panel on tonight, we are taking your calls both on the BTK killer and this investigation in Aruba on the Natalee Holloway case.

But let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert," the Duke rape investigation. The first defense motions filed. They want identification suppressed and information on the alleged victim`s background. So, the legal battle is on.


GRACE: Can you imagine your child disappearing on their senior trip, high school senior trip, never seen again? We will not let go of this case and other unsolved homicides. Tonight, with us Natalee`s father in the event of yet another catch and release, in fact two of them during the last 72 hours. What are they doing down there to our international law expert Rahul Manchanda.

So, in Aruba, you can arrest witnesses, force them to -- but you can`t force them to answer you, but you can question them, incarcerate and then just let them go?

RAHUL MANCHANDA, INTERNATIONAL LAW EXPERT: That`s exactly right. What we`re seeing now is that the arrests in Aruba are not as valid as the rest of America. Essentially what they`ve got down there is reasonable suspicion. And that means that if you are a suspect or somebody who has personal knowledge of a crime, you can be arrested, which is very, very strange to us.

GRACE: And I also think they`ve got a spelling problem. Remember when the prime minister wrote Natalee`s family and he referred to her as "Nathalee" among many other spelling problems and then this last suspect, what was it, Ellie, was it A.B. then they changed it to E.B.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told us earlier today that this guy who was arrested over the weekend they said his initials were E.B. and then later they sent out a correction and said, oops, his initials are A.B.

GRACE: So, Dave Holloway it really instills a lot of confidence.

HOLLOWAY: Yeah, especially when the prime minister made that big gap.

GRACE: Somebody needs spell-check. Let`s go to the lines, Lisa in Oklahoma, hi Lisa?

LISA: Hello. First off Nancy, I would just like to say with all the work you`ve done, I think you are truly an American hero. As for my question, what are the people in Aruba feeling about this? I mean, are they upset that there hasn`t been a resolution to this problem? Are they happy with their government`s so-called investigation tactics?

GRACE: Lisa, number one, thank you for your comment and I`ll throw this to Eric Marrapodi, he has been down in Aruba since the get-go. Eric, how are the locals feeling about this? Or do they just want their tourist dollars or do they actually care that they still haven`t solved this case?

MARRAPODI: You know, there are a lot of people here on the island who do want resolution, pretty much everyone you talk to. Very early on in the case when I was down here you heard people say, we feel for Natalee`s mom so much, we feel for Natalee`s dad, we want resolution for them. We want to know what happened to their daughter and so do we. As the case has progressed, you`ve seen sort of the feeling towards the Aruban police and towards the American media, the international media that`s been down here, has soured some with native Arubans. However everyone here on this case we talked to still wants that resolution, they want this case to be closed, they want an end, they want a final chapter to be written.

GRACE: Let`s go to Elaine in Massachusetts. Hi Elaine.

ELAINE: Hi. Nancy, the boat that the two deejays were on at the beginning did they ever search that boat.

GRACE: The boat that who was on?

ELAINE: The two deejays at the beginning.

GRACE: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I`m pretty sure it was but let me double- check that with Eric. From what I understand the deejay off the party boat was arrested, questioned, released. And I believe the boat was searched. Correct, Eric?

MARRAPODI: Yeah, that`s right. That boat certainly was searched. And remember why Steve Croes was released. He was released because he gave a false alibi for the those three suspects. When they said that we left her there at the Holiday Inn, he said, oh, yeah, I remember, I saw them leave her there at the Holiday Inn. Of course, when that story fell through, his false alibi fell through and he was arrested. And as soon as they realized he had just given a false statement to police, he was released about 10 days later. He called it an error in being nice, he said he was just trying to help out, thought he was just helping out a friend, but in fact got himself in a world of trouble.

GRACE: We have an all-star panel of lawyers and experts lined up to answer more of your questions. Let`s go tonight`s trial tracking. The trial of John Evander Couey, remember him, the man accused of kidnapping and killing 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford, the girl in the pink hat? Venue change, state and defense both agree to move venue to another area. To try to secure an impartial jury panel. Trial date, July 10.



JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: It was Natalee who asked me to go out with her. It was her that asked me to come to the club and it was her that was yelling at me to go dance with her and I said I wanted to go drink and go with my friends.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you that irresistible, I mean is that what --

VAN DER SLOOT: No, that`s absolutely not what it`s about. I don`t know, when her parents showed up at my door with her picture, I didn`t even know who Natalee Holloway was, I didn`t even know her name.


GRACE: You know what, that is such a load of B.S., that`s a technical legal term we trial lawyers use a lot. That interview by Joey (INAUDIBLE). Let me go to John Burris, John Burris knows his way around a courtroom, veteran trial lawyer. The release of Von Cromvoirt, John, I`m not surprised. In fact when it first happened, I knew -- my gut feeling was, it`s just another catch and release. But is it a bad sign, in general, John, for the investigation?

JOHN BURRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I don`t know that I would say it`s a bad sign generally. I would say, look, these people are trying to get as much information as they can. They are trying to follow up on whatever leads they can possibly find upon. The important difference here that is troubling to me as a defense lawyer is that you have a system that allows you to bring people into custody and hold them merely for purposes of getting information from -- or trying to get information from them, so --

GRACE: You know what`s interesting, John, and I don`t disagree with you. I completely disagree with arresting witnesses. It`s wrong.

BURRIS: Yeah. That`s fundamental -- that is so different to our system.

GRACE: Yeah. But isn`t it ironic, John, that they get the witnesses to talk but then when you`ve got the suspects behind bars, they can`t get a word out of them. They sit there and play checkers for three months.

BURRIS: Well, that is troubling. Well, suspects is different. A person really doesn`t want to testify, there`s no duty to do so. It`s just the way the process works, it`s hard to get a handle on because you really taint a person when you do that and hurt their reputation and you don`t have any information --

GRACE: I`m not worried about their reputations, John.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still believe that this case is a case that we can solve.

TWITTY: It`s just so many different connections that it`s just frightening. And I feel as if we are just missing just a couple of small pieces, and then I just feel as if it will all come to light.


GRACE: Distressing news out of Aruba. Two more suspects arrested, questioned and released.

To Eric Marrapodi, our producer there in Aruba, Eric, what became of the searches, the underwater searches? And I`m understanding that there were actually underwater, bottom-of-the-ocean photographs made?

MARRAPODI: That`s right, Nancy. We understand now from sources close to the coast guard investigation that side-scan sonar was used in those searches. And the A.P. reported over the weekend that the investigators were analyzing those side-scan photos that were taken by the coast guard.

We also know, during that coast guard search, that divers were used, and it was right off the coast of where Natalee Holloway was last reported by Joran Van Der Sloot. He says he left her by the fisherman`s huts. And they went up and down what`s called the hotel strip here in Aruba.

Now, I was told by a source close to the coast guard that, as soon as those searches were completed, that they had come up empty-handed. So still taking a look at those pictures, taking a look to see if they missed anything with the naked eye. But, right now, the word is empty- handed on those coast guard searches.

GRACE: OK, back to you, Eric. The search, as you say, by the coast guard, is it Aruban coast guard or our Coast Guard?

MARRAPODI: Well, Nancy, those searches were conducted by the Aruban coast guard and the Netherlands-Antilles coast guard. They also are based here at the Dutch Marines base on the island of Aruba, as well, so it was a joint effort between those two coast guards.

GRACE: Let`s go to Don Clark, the former head of the FBI Houston bureau. Don, that part of the country, I`ve dived there quite often. There is a pretty heavy current. You can drift-dive there, in other words, just go along with the current.

Let`s analyze what we know, Don. Why would they be searching now a year later for Natalee`s remains? Does it suggest to you she was weighted down in some way?

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Of course it does, Nancy. And, of course, you`d have to think all along that if you`re going to try and put a body into a body of water, so to speak, you`ve got to do something to keep it down, because it will come back up.

So maybe they`re thinking along that way. They have to be thinking along that way. The question is that it`s now a year later that they`re thinking that way, and so now your chances...

GRACE: Ridiculous.

CLARK: ... of getting any kind of evidence is almost ridiculous.

I agree with Dave. With some of the things that`s going on here, is that you`ve got to wonder what`s in their mind. And I think the key is that it`s such a fragmented investigation.

Nancy, that is no way to conduct an investigation, in a fragmented manner, a piece here and a piece there, without having an organizational structure to assemble all of this, and then analyze it, and figure out where you`re going to go.

GRACE: And the other thing, Don, is: This isn`t like, for instance in the Laci Peterson case where, yes, the ocean was involved, but it was a bay. The remains of Laci Peterson were, in fact, weighted down, as the police believed they were, after finding indicia of weights in Peterson`s workplace. But here, this goes out to the open sea; this is not really contained the way the San Francisco Bay is.

CLARK: Yes, that`s exactly right. And once you get about three miles out -- and I don`t claim to be an expert in water areas -- but I do know...

GRACE: Oh, please, you`re a former FBI.


GRACE: You know exactly what`s going on down there.

CLARK: Well, exactly. You know, it`s three miles out.

GRACE: A whole lot of nothing.

CLARK: And once you start to get that distance out, it`s just deep there. It is just deep. And you can put something in and the likelihood of it coming back is going to be remote.

And so, again, we go back to: Why a year from now? Why not take that on then? And I still think it goes back to, is that they were not equipped to handle this investigation, and yet someone did not make the decision, or no one made the decision, to say, "You know what? We ought to bring in somebody else to really figure out what resources and what personnel we need to put this case together."

GRACE: Let`s go to Gary Casimir. He is a former prosecutor. He does civil and criminal law, and he is the host of a radio show, "Legally Speaking."



GRACE: ... underwater photography is not as rudimentary as people may believe. Underwater photography can be very, very detailed. It can get a wonderful picture from that. So, bottom line, when they say you can`t tell much, I`m not buying that.

CASIMIR: No, that`s not true at all. I think you could tell a lot. You know, I think the theory that`s definitely has to be considered is whether or not they have evidence or information that says the body was weighted down somewhere, somehow.

I disagree that they have not looked in these waters before; we know they have. They`re obviously advancing their techniques, with regard to looking deeper into the ocean and taking more -- using more vehicles to find more evidence.

But I just want to say this much: A year later, and knowing that the live stuff in this ocean that could have definitely taken this body out further or eaten it, I think it`s hard to believe that they would find anything, but the photographic evidence would be incredibly helpful, hopefully.

It`s sad that this wasn`t used maybe a day after she went missing.

GRACE: To Eric Marrapodi there in Aruba, just exactly what has the government search entailed? I know Texas EquuSearch went down on their own dime. But what water search has the government actually done to find Natalee?

MARRAPODI: Nancy, the government has been very involved with the search here for Natalee Holloway. Remember, there`s a close working relationship between Holland and Aruba. And one of the things that was very important in some of the more recent searches have been those surveillance photos from the F-16s that did a fly-over and did a complete photo map of the island.

GRACE: Right, yes, I was referring...

MARRAPODI: And one of the things that Dompig told me about -- go ahead, Nancy.

GRACE: You. Everybody, we`re on a satellite camera and phone, so bear with us. You continue, Eric.

MARRAPODI: Yes, Nancy, one of the things that we were told about the satellite images that were taken by those F-16s was that you could peel the layers away like an onion. And when you did that, you could see more and more infrared images that popped up.

And that`s what led them to bring in, we believe, those Dutch forensic institute dogs that were brought over from Holland last month, and they came up empty, as well. So the government has been very involved.

And as you said, Texas EquuSearch, also, this summer was out in those waters. CNN was out there with them, at times, as well. So we know that -- it`s hard to believe an area of this island hasn`t been searched at this point.

GRACE: Let`s go to Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Nancy, if it`s eventually proven that the Deepak brothers or the brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot -- the Kalpoe brothers, I guess, and Joran Van Der Sloot is innocent, will they receive a public apology from the Natalee Holloway family?

GRACE: Hmm. David Holloway, Dave Holloway, I`m really concerned that people are so distressed about a formal public apology, as opposed to finding your daughter. But will you give an apology?

HOLLOWAY: Will I give an apology to someone that`s continually lied and obstructed an investigation? You know, that`s...

GRACE: You know what? Don`t even answer it. I hate to even ask you the question. Ridiculous.

These three, whether they are guilty or innocent, have lied, inconsistencies, blatant inconsistencies in all of their statements. So if they are not responsible, the worst thing they`ve done has been, in my mind, to lead police down a path which takes them away from the real suspects through their lies.

Dave, agree or disagree?

HOLLOWAY: Well, I agree.

GRACE: Levi in Tennessee, hi, Levi.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I want to know: What are these schmucks thinking about? We have Joe Tacopina talking about a possible lawsuit. Do they have a leg to stand on? And how does this help them find Natalee?

GRACE: You know, I want to go to John Burris on that. Now, John, take off that defense hat for just a moment. I know that`s hard. You know what? I don`t even know if you can do that.


BURRIS: I can.

GRACE: What do you think about that, the threat of civil lawsuits?

BURRIS: Well, given that I have done a lot of civil rights work, I think that it`s appropriate for him to consider it.

GRACE: On what ground would that be, John?

BURRIS: Well, you know, slander, defamation, false statements being made about you, ruining one`s life. I mean, after all, if they didn`t do it, and there`s no evidence to that effect, these young men`s lives have, in fact, been totally defamed; their reputations have been defamed.

And so, you know, to the extent that the government has participated in that or other people have, maybe they ought to -- I don`t see where a lawsuit is out of the question.

GRACE: Well, then, why don`t they go ahead and file it? Would it be possibly then their client would get to be deposed and cross- examined?

BURRIS: Well, absolutely, if you file...

GRACE: You know what? Bring it on. If want to file a lawsuit, file it.

BURRIS: No question. If you file, then, you know, once you start throwing darts at someone else, they throw darts back at you. And when you do that, then, of course, you would subject yourself to that kind of cross-examination. And then you have to assert, perhaps, the Fifth Amendment, if I were representing them, to make sure that they didn`t get themselves caught up.


HOLLOWAY: You just got to go back to the original statements. You know, these kids came up with or concocted the story about the Holiday Inn. That was untrue. And then you had lie, after lie, after lie, after lie.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sitting here before us is a depraved predator, a rabid animal that has murdered people, poisoned countless lives, and terrorized this communities for 30 years, all the while relishing every minute of it.

As such, there can be no justice harsh enough or revenge bitter enough, in this world at least, to cause the pain and suffering in which a social malignancy like this has coming. Therefore, I have determined, for the sake of our innocent victims and their loving families and friends with us here today, for me, this will be a day of celebration, not retribution.


GRACE: Buckle your seatbelt! Convicted serial killer Dennis Rader, the dog-catcher-turned-serial-killer, is getting all sorts of privileges behind bars. And he hasn`t had exactly a stellar record behind bars, as well.

To Larry Hatteberg with KAKE-TV -- he`s an anchor and reporter there -- well, let me start at the beginning. For the viewers that are unfamiliar with BTK, Bind, Torture and Kill, outline in a nutshell for me all of his victims.

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR-REPORTER: Well, in a nutshell, over a period of 30 years, BTK, Dennis Rader, killed 10 people in the Wichita area. BTK stood for Bind, Torture, Kill. He was, in every sense of the word, a serial killer, and he was very proud of what he had done to all of his victims and is still proud of that to this day.

GRACE: Tell me the nature of the killings.

HATTEBERG: The nature of the killings is that most of them were women. Now, he did kill two children but, as he put it at one point, they just happened to be collateral damage. He was really after the women.

And what he would do is he would bind them, he would tie them, and then he would strangle them. And then, on many of the women, he would tend to masturbate. He never had sexual relations with the women, but he was -- it was a very horrendous things, a very terrible way to die for all his victims.

GRACE: To Larry Hatteberg, he now can have access to in-room, in his cell, TV. He`s got access to that, books, phone, exercise, radio in- room. He`s got access to that, we are told, magazine, news, books. He can write and draw.

In fact, Larry, didn`t he try to break the rules and send a letter after taunting police for years, and years, and years by letter? He tried to send a letter to someone that was off-limits?

HATTEBERG: That`s right. At one point, he did try to break the rules, and he was disciplined for that. But Dennis Rader is no different than any other prisoner in the Kansas prison system. He has to earn his privileges.

And, yes, he can have a television inside his cell, not a radio at this point, but a television inside his cell. He can also read books and magazines, and he can have a pen, pencil and paper to write or draw with.

But he is treated exactly like every other prison within the Kansas prison system and is not given any special privileges because he is BTK.

GRACE: But he is not, Jeff Davis, like any other prisoner, all right? Jeff`s mother, Dolores Davis, was murdered by this dog catcher, BTK killer, Dennis Rader.

What is your response? This guy is actually going to get a TV in his room. He will be able to have radio in his room, magazines, books. He`s already tried to send letters to people he`s not supposed to contact. What is your response?

JEFF DAVIS, SON OF BTK MURDER VICTIM: Well, I don`t think I`m quite as adamant as I might have suspected. Obviously, he`ll work the system any way that he can. And when Judge Waller, and the NOAA (ph), and her office worked so hard to spell out all the criteria that they recommended, with good justification that he meet, at the time, I said, "Well, that`s nice, but DOC is going to do what they are want to do anyway," and that`s what they`re doing. So I can`t fault the...

GRACE: The Department of Corrections.

DAVIS: Yes, and I can`t fault them for doing it. He will continue to, until the day he drops dead in his little 8-by-10-foot laundry room-type cell, continue to skitter around and try to entertain himself with his little fantasies.

And he`ll do anything he can to make that happen, but I kind of take a different perspective. I get a great deal of solace and a lot of satisfaction -- really, daily I exact my revenge on him, because every time I think about that pathetic little cockroach trying to scratch out an existence in that little cell of his, that`s about the size, I said, of my laundry room, I think about that subsidence level of living, and what a pathetic excuse for a humanoid that he is.

And I know that eventually, whatever he does, eventually, they`re going to carry him out of there before he ever sees the light of day for the rest of his life. So I just take a lot of satisfaction in that.

GRACE: OK. I want to go to Andy Kahan, director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims office. Response to these privileges for a serial killer, BTK?

ANDY KAHAN, DIRECTOR, VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: You know, Nancy, here`s the ultimate irony: Today is the beginning of National Crime Victims` Rights Week. And here, the Kansas Department of Corrections is allowing the nation`s most sadistic and heinous serial killer privileges like you already reiterated.

And that presents a quagmire of problems. Frankly, from my perspective, the only privilege he should be given -- and we can probably debate this from here to eternity -- is the right to breathe.

But this brings up huge issues, that Kansas has now opened up a Pandora`s box, because I`ve been monitoring the murderabilia Web sites. And as soon as they found out that Rader has privileges now, and that is the ability to write letters, and to doodle, and draw, and do artwork, they plan an all-out attack on contacting him, getting his items, and selling them up for bid.

So like it or not, Rader, others are now going to profit from one of the most sadistic type of killer we know.

GRACE: I`m afraid you are right. And when we get back, to our psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall and a look at what he will be allowed to do behind bars with our Steph Watts.

Let`s stop for just a moment and remember Army Private First Class Ricky Salas, Jr., 21, Roswell, New Mexico, killed Iraq. A real outdoorsman, he put his family first. Tonight, Salas leaves behind a wife and two little children. Ricky Salas, Jr., an American hero.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just recently, I realized that I could not remember my mother`s voice. It was a painful discovery. But, as I put my thoughts on paper, it comes to me: I am my mother`s voice, and I know we`ve been hurt.


GRACE: The BTK killer, getting all sorts of privileges behind bars, the serial killer.

To our producer, Steph Watts, let`s take a look at the BTK`s TV lineup. What`s in store for him this week?

STEPH WATTS, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, he has access to TV shows on the three major networks, NBC, ABC and CBS, as well as PBS. But, remember, he`s confined to a cell for 23 hours a day, and has access all day long to shows, such as "The Apprentice," "Scrubs," crime shows such as "CSI," "Law & Order: Special Victim`s Unit," and "Desperate Housewives," even on ABC.

GRACE: Oh, dear god. Stop right there. I don`t even want to think about BTK watching "Desperate Housewives." Please, don`t put that thought in my head.

WATTS: I think some of the problems that the prosecutors and the families of the victims that I spoke to today have is that these TV`s images of women that he`ll see on TV will fuel his sex fantasies.

GRACE: Oh, lord.

I want to go to Bethany Marshall. Bethany, what message is this sending out?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I mean, when you -- you look at these sex crimes that are motivated by sexual sadism. These are the most premeditated and mentally rehearsed of all sex crimes. And the reason for this is these guys use extreme cruelty to fuel their erotic fantasies.

So by the time they actually get to committing the crime, they`ve committed in their mind hundreds of thousands of times, so these guys seem to pop up out of nowhere. They`re in the suburbs; they have two wives, a kid, a dog, a family sedan, and then they go and kill somebody.

And it looks like it`s come from out of nowhere, but it really hasn`t. It`s been incredibly rehearsed. I think the fact is: He is going to incorporate anything into his sexual fantasies, even if he has no magazines, no pen, no paper, no TV. It`s going to all be in his mind.

We can`t be the thought police, and we can`t control what he thinks; we can only control his access to society.

GRACE: You know what, I remember, in law school, I couldn`t afford TV. I couldn`t afford cable TV. And here`s a serial killer that I and the taxpayers are paying for all of his privilege. Bethany, for this one time, I disagree with you, friend, but we`ll take it up on another evening.

Thank you, Bethany, and to all of my guests. Our biggest thank you, as always, to you, for being with us, inviting us into your homes. And a special good night from a special guest here on the set with me, Fred Covner (ph). Took one of my very first guilty pleas with me as a defense lawyer.

Thank you for being here, Fred.

See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.