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Nancy Grace

The Great American Boycott

Aired May 01, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news across the country. On the verge of legal battle, hundreds of thousands of immigrants take to the streets to protest an extremely controversial immigration bill, immigrants out in force today, leaving behind jobs on farms, schools, factories, every industry you can imagine.
And tonight, on another note, stripper-turned-cover-girl Anna Nicole Smith takes another step toward her biggest paycheck ever, but this time, it`s not about Anna Nicole`s celebrity or her good looks. It`s a tough-as- nails legal showdown that`s made its way all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight: The Supreme Court rules in favor of reality star Anna Nicole Smith. Smith captured the attention of billionaire J. Howard Marshall at a strip club, then married him. Well, that`s not a felony. And now she is battling Marshall`s grown son for Marshall`s empire.

But first tonight, breaking news from New York to Chicago to LA and every city in between, immigrants protesting in massive numbers against an immigration crackdown. Tonight, do illegals take jobs from Americans? But are those unemployed Americans willing to get out of bed every morning and go to work, like the rest of us? Who`s right? Who`s wrong? And are we in danger of Congress actually doing something? And tonight, across the country, we are taking your calls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority of Americans support legalization of undocumented immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To demand Americans surrender to mob rule is reprehensible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think, at any time, when you -- when one puts their job or education on jeopardy or their education in jeopardy, I think it`s a mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the support of tens of millions of people, and not just immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think you show your power and value to the United States by boycotting America.


GRACE: I don`t know if it`s so much mob justice. They could have said that about the Boston tea party. They`re where the rest of us would be right now.

Straight down to Al Warnell with WIOD Miami-Date. Thank you for being with us. What`s the scene there?

AL WARNELL, WIOD RADIO, MIAMI-DADE: Well, we had approximately 5,000 illegals and their supporters that amassed at the Orange Bowl, and basically, they`re asking for a rollback or reform of the immigration laws. What they attempt to do is -- they`re saying to me that they`ve been here, some people as long as 20 years, and they have homes. They have cars. They have jobs. They have children in schools. And they want legalization of undocumented aliens.

GRACE: One question. Are they paying taxes?

WARNELL: According to them, they`re paying taxes.

GRACE: OK, Lou Dobbs is already twisting in his seat! Here in the studio, everyone, a special guest with us tonight, Lou Dobbs. Lou, response.

LOU DOBBS, HOST, CNN "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT": Well, illegals are not paying taxes. In point of fact, many people have described these protests and demonstrations today as an effort to get representation without taxation. The net cost of illegal immigration to American taxpayers is an estimate, and those estimates run from anywhere from $50 billion to $200 billion in depressed wages, costs of social services. It`s a remarkable burden.

There`s tremendous benefit, without question, to those illegal employers who boost their profits by exploiting illegal labor, but that is not an intended (ph) benefit to the rest of the economy or to each of us, as taxpayers.

GRACE: You know, Lou, many economists would argue that with increased illegal immigration, we have managed to achieve fantastic economic growth in our country, that, in fact, but for these illegal immigrants, we would not have surged forward in the `90s. Response.

DOBBS: Balderdash. The fact is...

GRACE: What`s that?

DOBBS: "Balderdash" is a word...

GRACE: OK, is that a technical legal term?

DOBBS: It`s -- I`m neither a lawyer nor particularly technical. The fact of the matter is, when an economist or anyone else expresses a completely outrageous statement like that, you`ve got to respond to it in kind.

It`s balderdash. It`s ridiculous. And the fact is, in terms of general GDP, at the margin, most economists would say something like a half a percent in GDP growth. But that does not include the burden on those at the lower wage scales in this country who are being penalized in their depressed wages by as much as 8 to 10 percent.

It is also a straightforward fact that we are creating an underclass with the millions of illegal aliens coming into this country, 60 percent of whom, it`s estimated, don`t even have a high school education, at a time when our schools cannot graduate 50 percent of the Hispanic students in this country, cannot graduate 50 percent of the African-American students in this country. We`re failing a young generation of Americans and yet willing to tolerate an explosion of illegal immigration. It`s nonsensical.

GRACE: Joining me right now from LA, Anderson Cooper. Welcome, friend. Tell us what`s going on there in LA.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Nancy, there were two demonstrations today. One is already finished. It was down at City Hall, and they had about 300,000 people down there. We`re on hour way to this other demonstration now in another part of Los Angeles.

You know, the organizers will tell you they thought it was a successful day. It was a peaceful demonstration. There were no -- there were no major incidents at all, no arrests made, according to the mayor. About a quarter -- city officials had asked children, kids not go to the demonstration in the morning and skip school. They were asking kids, if they had -- if they were going to go to one of these demonstrations (INAUDIBLE) in the afternoon. About a quarter, though, of kids from grades 6 through 12 apparently skipped school today. So you had a lot of people there really of all ages, down demonstrating.

It was a very festive atmosphere. Whether it achieved what they wanted -- some would argue it may have spurned (ph) more of a backlash against their objectives. But organizers on the ground seemed very pleased with how the day has gone so far.

GRACE: Anderson, I know tomorrow night, 11:00 o`clock sharp Eastern, you are doing a very important story on 24 hours on the border. What were you doing on the border?

COOPER: Well, we spent the weekend on the border, and what we wanted to just look at is sort of -- I don`t think a lot of people realize, A, how porous the border is in a lot of places. You know, I think we all -- you know, at least (INAUDIBLE) live up in the Northeast, think, Oh, well, you know, there`s sort of a fence along a lot of it or it`s well patrolled along a lot of it. I think it surprises a lot of people when they actually go down on the border and see, you know, tens of thousands of people crossing illegally every day into the United States. So we wanted to spend just 24 hours on the border and kind of share what it`s like from all different angles, from the border patrol, from the Minutemen, citizen volunteers who are out there...

GRACE: Well, what is it like...


COOPER: ... call themselves the eyes and the ears, trying to help out the border patrol, from the view of illegal immigrants crossing over and the dangerous journey that they make, the risks that they take. SO that`s a special that we got tomorrow night. And then tonight, we`ll be live from LA, focussing on the demonstrations.

GRACE: Anderson, what was the single biggest surprise you had monitoring our border?

COOPER: Well, you know, just -- it`s kind of shocking when you go to the border and you just -- you know, it doesn`t take long for you to see illegal immigrants. I mean, you go out with the border patrol, and any time of the day, you know, they`re rounding people up. It`s a pretty -- it`s a pretty eye-opening thing to actually go and see the border.

Now, whether -- you know, whether you agree or disagree that there should be a wall or what mechanisms there should be in place (INAUDIBLE) you know, good people can disagree on. But just the facts on the border are pretty startling for someone who hasn`t spent a lot of time down there.

GRACE: Hey, Anderson, before you get away from me -- well, there you go. We`re showing footage right now. It`s not a joke. It`s before Congress right now that a 700-plus-mile wall be built on the border. All right, Anderson, feasibility.

COOPER: Well, I mean, the supporters will tell you, you know, it is feasible. They think it will have a deterrent effect. They think it will funnel people even to other areas which are too dangerous to cross. You know, those who oppose it -- and I`ve talked to some border agents who said, Look, you know, you can`t -- you could build a fence 500-feet tall and 50 feet deep, and still people are going to try to figure out some way to get around it or to get through it.

You know, the border patrol likes to talk about layers of security. And it`s not just about a wall. It`s about, you know, cameras and sensors and different layers that people have to get through. So you know, it`s -- it -- good people can disagree on it. I don`t take positions, but you know, I think it`s -- it`s startling to -- when you`re actually there on the border, to see just how easy it is to cross in a lot of places.

GRACE: Anderson Cooper, our CNN anchor. Tomorrow night, 11:00 o`clock sharp, his day on the border.

Also, back to you. Lou Dobbs, yes, a fence, 700 miles. When I first heard it, I thought it was some type of a political satire. The border is about 2,000 miles. Now, what good is a 700-mile fence? And also, can we get real just a moment? Reality check! Who do you think`s going to build it? Illegals!

DOBBS: Well, it`s an interesting thought. And as you say -- I`m sure you`re being satirical and sardonic, but the fact of the matter is, we have a very real problem that`s causing a great, great amount of pain and an immense burden to this economy.

As you heard Anderson report, it`s the experience of everyone who goes to the border, Nancy, the fact that they watch thousands of people crossing our borders. The most traveled part of our southern border with Mexico is across the Arizona border. Building a 700-mile fence would do a great deal to move people way from that border, and in point of fact, save lives because the Mexican government will not do anything at all to help its citizens. In fact, they are pushing them into the Sonora desert and across our border and must -- must -- stop illegal immigration.

But they make too much money. And people focus on the wrong side of the border, often. The fact is that Mexico has 50 percent poverty. It is a corrupt and incompetent government. Vicente Fox is in charge of our immigration policy because we are doing nothing ourselves to either enforce the laws we have or to manage the guest worker program we already have, which is a visa program, an immigration program that brings in a million- and-a-half people a year.

GRACE: Well, speaking of 11 million...

DOBBS: Legally.

GRACE: Right. You got me. Ed Schultz, host of "The Ed Schultz Show" -- Ed, what are we going to do with the 11 or 12 million illegal immigrants that this bill wants to turn into felons? Now, having been a prosecutor for many, many years, I already didn`t have enough bed space in the jail for rapists and child molesters and murderers. So what are we going to do with them?

ED SCHULTZ, HOST, "THE ED SCHULTZ SHOW": Well, I think the strategy here, Nancy, is to start harsh and to back off. But this unquestionably is our problem. We have created this problem because we have not addressed the issue at the border. And this is one of the reasons why I think a lot of liberals in this country have no problem with the demonstrations, have no problem with these people who want to be Americans, because it`s better to get them into the fold and get them paying taxes and support the treasury than it is to go the way we`ve been going so far.

Now, you`re not going to round up 11 million people. Logistically, that would be a absolute nightmare. It would take phenomenal resources to do that. And I think it would also take the eye off the ball. We`ve got to protect the border. You can`t have one without the other. So I think border protection is a key thing, but also being compassionate and getting these people into the fold and get them...

GRACE: Ed! Ed! Ed!

SCHULTZ: ... paying taxes...

GRACE: Ed! Ed!

SCHULTZ: ... the way they should be. I think it`s going to be better for the county.

GRACE: Ed, question. What are we going to do with the 11 million new felons?

SCHULTZ: Well, they`re not felons. They`re people who want to be Americans. And yes, they have broken the law coming into the United States, but that doesn`t mean that making them even more criminal is going to solve our problem. We created this problem but not protecting the borders. Now we`ve got to do something about it. The best thing to do is bring them into the fold. The best thing to do...

GRACE: OK. All right.

DOBBS: ... is get them paying taxes...

GRACE: All right, my issue was...


GRACE: If we turn these people into felons under the proposed immigration form, what are going to do with them? Joining me right now, Chris Lawrence, senior correspondent in LA. Chris, give us the scene there.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, right here, there was a major rally here earlier today. Tens of thousands of people came here to City Hall. Police within the last 30 minutes peacefully moved them all out to that other march over in the Wilshire (ph) corridor.

But what we learned here today is while the immigration rights movement is putting up a united front overall, there are differences. Some groups want the priority to be legalizing undocumented immigrants. But we talked to many in the Asian-American community who say the government`s priority should be, and what they want to see, is an increase in family visas for people who immigrated here legally. They say there are families here who are now legal citizens from the Philippines who have been waiting 20 years to bring their family members over there -- over here. They would like to see that the priority. Others say they want the priority to be legalizing people who are here already.

GRACE: To Michelle Dallacroce. She is the founder of Mothers Against Illegal Aliens. Michelle, response?

MICHELLE DALLACROCE, FOUNDER, MOTHERS AGAINST ILLEGAL ALIENS: I`m just flabbergasted that we have a problem with the fact that legal and illegal are two separate words, and apparently, the majority of the people coming in from Mexico who are here illegally think that they should be rewarded for bad behavior and possibly only pay a $2,000 file, based on what our senators are now negotiating.

Just today -- I just want to read you something real quick. I receive thousand of e-mails from people. Today, I received one from a 16-year-old anchor (ph) baby child who`s in our schools. She writes here -- and this is the mentality of the children that we have going to our schools right now, who are the anchor babies. She writes, "We`re here and we work in your fields, we pick your fruit, we fix your yards and we mend your dresses. We take care of those dirty little animal-looking things you call your loving children, and we do all of the dirty work just to take care of all of your needs."

It`s very disturbing to me, as a mother, to think that we have these children, who are anchor babies, whose parents are under the jurisdiction of Mexico, now able to possibly vote in the next few years because our Congress hasn`t put their foot down and made a realization that there`s been a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment.

And my children, as well as my grandchildren and everyone`s legal citizen children in our schools, are being affected, dumbed down. We can see that with our flags being raised. We can see that in Apache Junction out here in Phoenix, Arizona. They raise the Mexican flag. They can wave the American flag. They`ve got a good prop manager. But the reality is, they`re here illegally. Eight-five to ninety-five percent are from Mexico. They need to go back and come here legally.

GRACE: Michelle, you have asserted that there are many public services, such as hospitals and schools that really are going to close their doors because of an influx of illegals, correct?

DALLACROCE: Nancy, they`ve already done that in California.

GRACE: OK. Where.

DALLACROCE: In Douglas, Arizona, they`ve closed hospitals there because of the influx of pregnant women coming in from Mexico.

GRACE: What hospital?

DALLACROCE: I don`t have the name off the top of my head here. I`m really sorry about that.

DOBBS: Well, just for the record, it`s about 60 hospitals and clinics in California have had to close for this very reason, and in Texas. This is not a new phenomenon, and it`s just one of the hidden costs that the national, the mainstream news media, hide-bound by political correctness, doesn`t want to deal with, and...

GRACE: but why have the rules changed, Lou? I mean, I`m just a fourth-generation American. When my ancestors came, all they knew how to do was dig a potato, all right? And under the guidelines that are in Congress right now...

DOBBS: Well, see, I`m...

GRACE: ... I wouldn`t be here.

DOBBS: ... a first generation potato picker and hauler and working in hayfields with...

GRACE: So when did it all change?

DOBBS: ... migrant workers. Well, it -- where it changed is when corporate America took control of this political system, took over the election process, took over the legislative process and demanded cheap labor. And that is what`s at odds here because you will hear corporate Americans and special interests telling you that we have to have more illegal labor. We have to have far more because it`s needed. Then why are wages at the bottom end of the wage scale declining, because that`s the inverse of what should be happening in economic theory. Why are real wages for working men and women in this country in the middle class falling, rather than rising?


GRACE: Today, massive demonstrations across this country, in every major city and in between. How Lou Dobbs can say no to this little girl, I don`t know.

But right now, we are taking your calls. Let`s go to Jamie in South Carolina. Hi, Jamie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, how are the children getting into our school systems, which we`re already crowded -- we don`t have enough books for our students -- if they`re not tax-paying and immunized?


DOBBS: The reason is it`s required by the Supreme Court that all persons as described by the Constitution shall be provided an education. That`s their interpretation. And furthermore, because of the -- again, the hidebound political correctness, our schools, our law enforcement officers in every corner of federal administration, state and local are prevented, prohibited...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...

DOBBS: ... from inquiring...

GRACE: Wait a minute!

DOBBS: ... inquiring into legal status.

GRACE: Lou Dobbs, hold on. Most of the people -- not most of them. I don`t have a statistic to back this up. But a lot of people in public schools right now aren`t now paying their taxes. So what`s the difference?

DOBBS: What`s that got to do with what I just said?

GRACE: Well, she asked, how are all these kids in school, their families not paying taxes, they`re here illegally...

DOBBS: Right.

GRACE: ... and they are partaking of what we have bought with our taxes. A lot of the people that are in public school systems are not paying their taxes anyway. So isn`t that parsing...

DOBBS: How so? I don`t understand because through -- most taxes, school taxes in this country, Nancy, as you well know, are derived from property taxes. One is either a renter or a home owner in some fashion.

GRACE: Yes, you`re right, as opposed -- real versus personal property, you`re right about.

Let`s go to David in Oklahoma. Hi, David.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it`s just questions that (INAUDIBLE) statement. If we`re spending $2 billion a year to take care of the illegal immigrants that are here, why can we not turn around and take that money to build a wall all the way across the border, man it and maintain it to where we don`t have the illegal immigrants continuing to come in?

GRACE: To Ed Schultz. Response?

SCHULTZ: Well, I think, Nancy, building a wall is just part of the problem. And I don`t think that you`re going to be able to build a wall that far across America and have it work. There`s new technology out there that deals with sensors. It`s going to take a lot of manpower. And a wall in certain areas might work, but it`s going to take a comprehensive area. And it`s also going to take us to tell and get tough with Mexico. They got to clean up their act, as well.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The polls are clearly indicating that the majority of Americans support legalization of undocumented immigrants. We have the support of tens of millions of people, and not just immigrants.


GRACE: Welcome back. Demonstrations across this country today, illegal immigrants wanting power, or some modicum of power in this country.

To Christopher Ho, attorney, Legal Aid Society. He`s an immigration and labor law expert. Welcome, Christopher. Christopher, the proposed law right now in Washington, D.C., would make 11 million-plus illegals felons that then we would have to deal with. What is your response?

CHRISTOPHER HO, ATTORNEY, LEGAL AID SOCIETY, IMMIGRATION LAW EXPERT: Well, that`s the proposal that`s currently contained in the House bill that`s sponsored by Congressman Sensenbrenner. I think that this bill would be a huge mistake because for reasons just as President Bush alluded to the other day, it would require us to engage in literally mass deportations. And you just can`t deport 11 million to 12 million people.

GRACE: And to Lou, how would immigrant reform actually affect our daily life?

DOBBS: Well, in terms of the Sensenbrenner legislation, the effect would be to provide border security. And in the case of McCain-Kennedy, it wouldn`t. But the fact is, neither bill, unless we control our borders, can we control immigration. And if we can`t control immigration, we surely cannot reform it successfully.


GRACE: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

If you`re like me, you`re a new-generation American. My ancestors, Irish. They knew how to dig a potato. Today, protests across this country by so-called "illegal immigrants." There`s a statute before Congress now declaring them all to be felons and to further build an at least 700-mile wall on the U.S.-Mexican border.

Welcome back. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Straight out to Michelle Dallacroce, she with Mothers Against Illegal Aliens.

Thanks, Liz. We`ve lost that satellite.

I want to quickly go to Lou Dobbs with the very same question. Part of the argument against illegals is that they are displacing the poor and minority and sometimes lower-skilled workers. But can I ask you this, Lou? All the people on the welfare rolls, do you really think they`re going to jump out of bed tomorrow morning at 8:00 sharp and say, "Let`s go lay some brick"?


DOBBS: I`ve got the same problem with your question that I`ve got with what the president of the United States is saying, that there are jobs that Americans won`t do. This is a nation that respects work. This is a nation, also, of Americans who demand a decent wage for the work that they do. And illegal immigration gives corporate America and illegal employers an opportunity not to do so.

And it was heart-rending to look at the Statue of Liberty and to hear your warm words. But the fact is that, if we`re embracing illegal immigration from Mexico, Central America, and South America, it`s good for those people who use that as an excuse for illegal immigration to remember there are more than 5 billion people of all races, all ethnicities, from all around the world who are poorer than the people in Central and South America.

GRACE: You know, Lou, for many years I have watched you, have listened to your opinions...

DOBBS: Well, not that many years. Come on.

GRACE: ... and you`ve always been -- OK, one or two -- so pro- capitalist, which I appreciate. But does this seem, especially when it comes to outsourcing and immigration, does that seem to be anti-capitalist?

DOBBS: I think that there is nothing at all intellectually inconsistent or contradictory, and the reason is this: No one is more free enterprise and pro-democracy than I am. No one has greater regard and respect for capitalism as a driving force in our economy.

But at the same time, this has to be a society and an economy of countervailing influences. And we`ve lost that countervailing influence. Name one power in opposition to that of corporate America in our political system in either lobbying or in our legislature?

GRACE: Zero.

DOBBS: You can`t do it.

GRACE: Zero. On that, I agree with you. I`ve got another tough question, before you take off, maybe not tough for you: Why can`t we strengthen our border patrols? Have you looked at your paycheck, how much money is being taken out? Why can`t we afford to strengthen our border patrols?

DOBBS: Because both parties of both houses of Congress, this president, and the last three, perhaps four, administration have been in directly the pay and sway of corporate America, and what they want is what they`re getting, from both political parties, and to hell with the middle class. That`s their attitude.

GRACE: With us tonight, special guest Lou Dobbs and, also with us another special guest, Anderson Cooper. Thank you, gentlemen.

Very quickly, we are switching gears and taking you all the way back to the capital and the latest on Anna Nicole Smith. Yes, she`s back. She`s back fighting the U.S. Supreme Court.

I want to go out to straight to -- Elizabeth, do we have our satellite hooked up? We do. Let`s go to Tom O`Neil.

Tom, what is the latest?

TOM O`NEIL, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, the Supreme Court has decided in the favor of Anna and the Bush administration, by the way. They were both on her side here.

It`s a matter of jurisdiction. Initially, when this case came to court in the state of Texas, the judges ruled that Anna had no entitlement at all to this money. You know, her name does not appear in the will, at all, but on the other hand it was quite clear from audio recordings and others that he wanted her taken care of.

Then there were two cases in federal court in California in which Anna was getting sizeable sums of money. First, that was $475 million. And then there was another judgment on her behalf of $88 million. And the family said that the federal courts were out of their jurisdiction deciding state probate issues.

That`s what the Supreme Court ruled today. They said, "No, no, it`s OK," so Anna goes back to her fight. It doesn`t mean she gets the money.

GRACE: Take a listen to Anna Nicole Smith.


ANNA NICOLE SMITH, FORMER MODEL: I can`t trust anybody. I just -- I can`t. I get sued all the time. I can`t trust anybody. I mean, people I don`t even know sue me all the time. I just -- I don`t trust anybody.

I wasn`t physically, "Oh, my god, you hot, hot body," you know, like that. It was just I loved him for so much of what he did for me and my son. I mean, I just loved him -- I`ve never had love like that before.


GRACE: I`m going to go to Harvey Levin with You know what, Harvey? This gentleman -- I believe he was 89 years old -- married her under the eyes of the state. They formalized the union. And it seems to me that the son has sour grapes and this has also turned into some sort of popularity contest, that because she is perceived as some type of a tramp, somehow the wedding didn`t happen.

HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM: Yes, I mean, this is about -- in fact, Ruth Bader Ginsburg actually wrote about the nastiness in this fight, Nancy. I mean, it really is just an all-out war between the two of them.

And she`s basically saying that he forged documents, that he defrauded her, just trying to keep the money away from her that she says that her husband wanted her to have. Now, he`s saying she was basically a gold digger. And...


LEVIN: Well...


... and when you listen to the various tapes, he doesn`t really promise that he`s going to give her anything that she demanded.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Harvey, true or false, did he, Marshall, contact his lawyers before his death and ask them to draw up a trust, including half of his fortune, which is to the tune of about $1.6 billion?

LEVIN: You know, and I`ve heard it. The problem with that, Nancy, is, when it`s not drafted, it`s not worth the paper it`s not written on. And when she comes up with these audio recordings, the problem she has there is he never makes those promises to her. And she`s kind of baiting him.

It was on Christmas morning when she`s kind of baiting him. "Oh, come on, honey, tell me what you`re going to give me." So there are really two sides to this thing. And neither side really comes out completely smelling like a rose.

GRACE: Joining us now from New York, Leonard Leeds. He`s the former attorney for Anna Nicole Smith.

You know, Leonard, I`ve got a feeling that, if this was the church lady and she was fighting for this empire, that we wouldn`t be having a legal battle. And as much as I say Lady Justice is blind when it comes to women, and children, and minorities who are in courts, same thing goes for Anna Nicole Smith.

He married her. Doesn`t that change any pre-existing will, a marriage or the birth of a child?

LEONARD LEEDS, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ANNA NICOLE SMITH: Well, here`s the point: I think that Mr. Marshall`s son, Pierce, is really vindictive. They look at it and they say a 26-year-old Playmate of the year and his 89- year-old father.

But what a lot of people don`t know is that Mr. Marshall pursued her for over three years. He wanted to marry her throughout their relationship, and she waited almost four years until she actually married him. She was his wife, and she provided a lot of affection, love, devotion to him.

GRACE: But what about this so-called request to his lawyers? Now, listen, this guy, J. Howard Marshall, is no idiot. Didn`t he teach wills and estates, Ellie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did, at Yale Law School, I believe.

GRACE: At Yale Law School. He knew exactly what he was doing when he contacted the lawyers and asked them to create a trust involving one half of his $1.6 billion fortune to be put in trust to Anna Nicole Smith. Now, to me, that sounds like a gift, as opposed to a will change.

LEEDS: Well, what happened here is that the bankruptcy court and then the district court actually listened to that testimony and they found for Anna Nicole Smith. So, really, we have precedent here. She should get the money.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone, and we are taking your calls. Anna Nicole Smith making legal news today at the U.S. Supreme Court, and actually this will apply to widows all across the country who seek to obtain their husband`s estate.

As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 32-year-old April Beth Pitzer, Newberry Springs, California, missing since June 28, 2004. Her two little girls are still waiting for their mother. If you have information on April Beth Pitzer, contact the San Bernardino sheriffs, 670- 256-4838.



SMITH: I can`t trust anybody. I just -- I can`t. I get sued all the time. I can`t trust anybody. I mean, people I don`t even know sue me all the time.


GRACE: Welcome back. Reality star Anna Nicole Smith has made her way to Washington, D.C., and the U.S. Supreme Court.

To Jason Oshins, civil attorney, as well as defense attorney, Jason, what does it mean?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, over all, I think the significance of the Supreme Court`s decision is that the federal courts do have jurisdiction over certain matters without upsetting the ability of state courts to make decisions on matters that are, you know, related to state`s issues, like probate, domestic relations. That`s the important thing. A 9-0 decision very strong, sending it back and overturning the Ninth Court of Appeals.

GRACE: To Adam Rosman, also a civil attorney, joining us out of Washington, D.C., Adam, is it true that in certain jurisdiction the marriage or the birth of a baby null and voids a will?

ADAM ROSMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is true in certain jurisdictions, although there have to be specific circumstances that a court has to agree to, to rule that way.

But, look, we wouldn`t be talking about this and the Supreme Court precedent if it wasn`t for certain of Ms. Smith`s other attributes and her somewhat, perhaps, curious decision to marry an 89-year-old gentleman. So I think that`s why we`re talking...

GRACE: What difference does that make to you, Adam?

ROSMAN: Well, I don`t think what`s really interesting to us here is the Supreme Court precedent, which was a fairly technical finding, but just the facts surrounding the case and how long it`s gone on for.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting me? It`s interesting to me that Anna Nicole Smith may be treated differently than other widows in a similar circumstance because she is flamboyant; she`s a bleached blonde; she`s got huge implants; and she dresses in rubber dresses.

Why should she be treated differently when the marriage, in many jurisdictions, would null and void a will, just like the birth of a baby would?

ROSMAN: I agree with you completely. She shouldn`t be treated any differently. But the reason we`re all sitting on your show talking about this is because of the certain facts of the case and, in particular, her personality, and as she displayed on television to you earlier.

GRACE: Let`s go to Jade in Georgia. Hi, Jade.

CALLER: Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Well, you know, it`s not unusual for men with money that are older to marry younger girls, first of all. And, second of all, I would like to know: Why didn`t the will in the first place stand up in court the fist time? What was so wrong with it that it couldn`t stand up?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Leonard Leeds?

LEEDS: ... but Mr. Marshall did not make any provisions for Anna Nicole Smith in his will. He actually executed it before the marriage and had transferred most of his assets into an irrevocable trust. That was the problem.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


SMITH: He bought me the ranch. And a week later, I went to him, and I said that I was scared because Pierce`s name was on the title. And he told me, "Don`t worry about it, because once we`re married that half of everything I have is going to be yours." And about Pierce, don`t worry, because once we`re married, half of his would be mine, and I wouldn`t have to worry about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did that come up in conjunction with doing something with the title of the car, in relation to that?

SMITH: I wanted the title of the car in my name.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t remember when you last saw your husband alive?

SMITH: No, sir, I don`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if it was in the summer of 1995?

SMITH: I`m sure it was in the summer, but I don`t know what day it was. No, sir, I don`t. I don`t know the day...


SMITH: ... that I last saw my husband.


GRACE: I hate when that happens, when you can`t remember the last time you saw your dead husband. But you know what? Leonard Leeds, again, whether we approve or disapprove of their marriage or what they had going on is irrelevant to this legal issue. I think the U.S. Supreme Court was correct.

Why so much interest in this case, Leonard?

LEEDS: You know, most cases like this would actually settle in probate court; 98 to 99 percent of the cases actually are resolved. This is just a vendetta by Pierce against Anna Nicole Smith. I think it`s just blatant that she was a former Playmate of the year, 26-year-old model who married his 89-year-old father and he couldn`t deal with it.

GRACE: To Harvey Levin, Harvey, why doesn`t the son just either settle -- it`s $1.6 billion they could split -- or go get a job of his own?

LEVIN: Well, I mean, I`m not really that harsh toward him. You know, he`s drawing the line in the sand. He says he`s been smeared. He thinks Anna Nicole has basically accused him of being a criminal, a forger to say the least.

But, Nancy, I have to ask you something: Why isn`t it relevant that you got a 26-year-old stripper after an 89-year-old man, just in terms of trying to figure out who`s telling the truth? Why isn`t it relevant to look at her life, and his life, and kind of question it, and say, "Is he the real deal?"

GRACE: Because, Harvey, they were legally married. And believe you me, I don`t want anyone taking away my rights under the law because they don`t like my lifestyle or some legal opinion I espoused on the air. It`s just Lady Justice is blind.

LEVIN: But being legally married doesn`t answer this legal dispute. And if you`re really trying to figure out credibility here, why isn`t it relevant to look at her life?

GRACE: Let`s go to Amy in Wisconsin. Hi, Amy.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I just wanted to know, now that her case went over to the Supreme Court, what are her chances of actually getting her money or the inheritance?

GRACE: The money, good question -- Leonard?

LEEDS: I think she`s going win. I think, based on the remand to the Ninth Circuit, it looks to me like the issue is going to be whether the bankruptcy court award of $450 million or the district court award of $50 million is going to prevail. I think it`s win-win.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. But I want to remind you: priest on trial for the death of a nun 26 years ago, 3:00 to 5:00, Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us as we stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Marco A. Silva, just 27 of Florida, killed Iraq. Silva is remembered as a funny guy, a jokester, always with a smile on his face. Silva leaves behind two little children. Marco A. Silva, an American hero.



SMITH: I wasn`t physically, "Oh, my god, you hot, hot body," you know, like that. It was just I loved him for so much of what he did for me and my son. I mean, I just loved him -- I`ve never had love like that before.


GRACE: Anna Nicole Smith and a fleet of lawyers at the U.S. Supreme Court today. Let`s go to Sandra in Florida.

Hi, Sandra.

CALLER: Hi, I have a question.


CALLER: I just wanted to know, if she was legally married, how come she`s not entitled to the inheritance?

GRACE: You know what? It`s an excellent point.

To Jason Oshins, as I was saying earlier, very typically when a marriage takes place or a child is born, a prior will is out the window. Why not here? And isn`t a unanimous Supreme Court decision highly unusual?

OSHINS: Well, no, a Supreme Court decision that`s 9-0, you know, yes, to some degree, right, you don`t always get a 9-0.

GRACE: Yes, why don`t you say it, Jason? It`s unusual.

OSHINS: You can get an 8-1. You can get a 7-1. But, you know, you`re right. It is unusual.

The important part of this, the Texas court was not overruled in any manner, shape or form. That probate court decision was not overruled. As Adam Rosman said, this is a much more sophisticated legal issue that Mr. Pierce Howard himself brought upon himself in the bankruptcy court.

GRACE: Do you think Marshall decided who received his money when he was in his right mind?

OSHINS: That`s an interesting question, but the Texas probate courts ruled on that and gave it all to the son in a catch-all trust. It went all to him. The issues in the bankruptcy court and in the district court are much more sophisticated legal issues as to who has jurisdiction over tangential issues raised in those courts.

GRACE: Well, hasn`t the U.S. Supreme Court decided that, Leonard?

LEEDS: Well, it said that, in essence, the bankruptcy court, the federal court had jurisdiction.

GRACE: So I can tell you one thing for sure about this case: It ain`t over yet.

Thank you to all of my guests and to you who called in, but our biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.

Wednesday night: child sex predators, an epidemic. We head to Washington airing live from Capitol Hill to fight child sex predators. Earlier on Wednesday, I will testify before U.S. lawmakers about increasing numbers of online sex predators. We look at what you can do to join the fight.

Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.