Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

A man steals thousands of gallons of gas from a gas station, but given the high pump prices, will jurors sympathize with him? And why are gas prices so high anyway?; Duke Rape Case Continues to Stir Controversy

Aired May 10, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, crime at the pump. A man steals thousands of gallons of gas. Jurors may sympathize with him. Tonight, we look at price gouging. It`s a crime.
And tonight, breaking developments in Duke University`s elite lacrosse team rape investigation. Did Duke sweep the case under the rug at the get- go, hoping all of the allegations of multiple rape would quickly be dismissed? And is indictment number 3 set to be handed down Monday, a third rape indictment expected? Does DNA finally back it up?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since first learning about the incident of March 13, Duke police has cooperated with Durham police in their investigation. We continue to do so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking developments in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation, new revelations that Duke police downplayed multi-rape claims from a 27-year-old student-turned-stripper. Did Duke think the whole thing would just blow over? And why?

But first tonight, intense pain at the pump, the gas pump, price gouging. How can we fight back? And tonight, we are taking your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixty percent of our energy is not imported. Our energy future remains in the clutches at the OPEC cartel, at the whims of an Iranian radical, at the mercy of political unrest and civil wars in Africa, and at the beck and call of dictators in South America. It is no wonder the American people are upset. Neither they nor I accept the answer that, Oh, nothing can be done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And now we hear word of a gentleman -- well, maybe not the right term -- actually stealing thousands of gallons of gas from local gas stations.

But first to Ali Velshi, CNN business correspondent and anchor. Ali, explain to us, why is it that the price of a barrel of gas can go down but the price is going up at the pump?

ALI VELSHI, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That`s the price right over my shoulder, $72.13 today. About 55 percent of the price of gasoline that you pay at the pump comes from crude oil, which means that if oil goes down by $5 or up by $3, for every dollar that a price of oil moves, you should see a 3 cent change in the price of gas. Now, we don`t see that, Nancy, and that`s the fact.

What happens is that there`s so much that goes on in the process, from drilling oil to getting it to your pump, that between the price of oil, the cost of refining it and all that, and the profit that everybody takes, everybody makes money in this whole operation. The only person that doesn`t make any money is you at the end, when you`re buying it. You just do not see oil and gas -- now, you see, you got a chart of the last year. The bottom is oil prices. The top is gas prices. You can see that while they do move relatively in sync, lately, over on the right side of the screen, gas prices have shot up faster than oil prices have.

GRACE: Joining us now, the Kentucky attorney general who is on the cutting edge of investigating high gas prices, trying to help you, the consumer. To Gregory D. Stumbo. Thank you, sir, for being with us.

GREGORY D. STUMBO, KENTUCKY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you, Nancy, for inviting me.

GRACE: What do you think -- who do you think is responsible for the high gas prices? And what are you doing about it?

STUMBO: Nancy, we have a price-gouging law in Kentucky that was enacted in the 2004 general assembly, and following an emergency, the governor was called upon to declare a state of emergency, which triggered the law into effect, which gives our office the ability to see if price gouging occurred. And what price gouging means is grossly -- charging grossly excessive fees for essential consumer products, like gasoline.

We`ve been conducting that investigation since August, since the Katrina hurricanes, and we`ve found evidence of price gouging at all levels -- at the retail level, at the wholesale level, and somewhat at the refining level, although the evidence is still somewhat inconclusive because we just sent out a new round of subpoenas, seeking information from the refiner in our state.

GRACE: To Ali Velshi, CNN anchor, how many states have these anti- gouging laws?

VELSHI: Well, more than 40 -- about 28, 28 to 30 states have some law about gouging. But here`s the interesting thing. They`re vague. They sometimes take place in an emergency. And they`re hard to prove. The fact is...

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait!

VELSHI: It looks -- $2.99 on the screen there? Now, if a gas station across the road is charging six bucks a gallon for gas, that`s gouging. But what if everybody`s charging $3.15? Is that gouging? Is that collusion? Or is that the price of gasoline, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, Ali, have you thought about this? You just showed the huge, huge signs, Rosie (ph), of gas prices. You don`t drive down the interstate and say, Eggs $599.8 a dozen.

VELSHI: Right.

GRACE: Why is it that we, as Americans, are so invested in the price of gasoline?

VELSHI: Because we, as Americans, burn, just for driving, just in gasoline, 10 percent of all of the oil the world produces every day. We are the largest consumers of oil and gasoline in the world. The fact of the matter is, it may not be fair and we do want somebody to blame for it, but we consume a lot of this, and it is supply and demand. Nancy, we have not built a new refinery in this country in 30 years. Our refineries in this country are maxed out, and they know -- the refinery operators know, You know what? We can -- we`re going to sell to the highest bidder. And that`s why this price is so high.

GRACE: Ali, if we go to alternative fuel sources, can the current refineries be used to create that fuel?

VELSHI: Yes and no. We`re building -- there are refineries under construction right now in the country to make -- make organic products into ethanol. They`re underway. In fact, there`s one in upstate New York that`s doing that. Typically speaking, if you ran a refinery in this country, Nancy, why would you convert it to do anything else? Because right now you can work 24/7 to make oil into gasoline and get huge, huge prices for it. So nobody running these refineries in this country wants to change them.

Other people are going to have to have the incentives to build different refineries to make gasoline out of other things or build more these F-cell cars, fuel cell cars. That`s a hydrogen car that I drove, in fact. I think that`s me driving it right now. That`s the future, Nancy.

GRACE: To Gregory Stumbo, the Kentucky attorney general -- he`s one of the few leading the investigation into higher gas prices and trying to protect citizens from price gouging -- is what Ali Velshi said correct, that very often, the current price-gouging statutes only kick in when there`s an emergency like Katrina?

STUMBO: That`s true, Nancy. Ours...

GRACE: Well, what good is that going to do us?

STUMBO: Well, if you think of what emergency is, it can be a war, it can be a disruption in the supply of the basic product. The governor declares that it -- it is not the perfect law, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does give states the ability to look at these situations with a bigger stick, so to speak. Only -- you`re right, only about 25 states, 26 states have these laws. Coupled with our Consumer Protection Act in Kentucky, we are -- we feel like that we have two of the better tools, as far as the state goes, to look at this situation.

GRACE: How many people have been prosecuted, sir?

STUMBO: We haven`t prosecuted anyone yet. It calls for civil violations, $5,000 for each violation. We have hired an expert. It is as Mr. -- as the gentleman said, it is a very complicated distribution system. We do have someone looking at it who`s expert in the petroleum distribution system, who has told us that we should proceed with our investigation because he has found evidence of some price gouging.

GRACE: Take a listen to what consumers have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) summer plans are shot with these gas prices. You have to plan your trips now, definitely. You can`t just get in your car and go where you want to go (INAUDIBLE) prices are extremely high. All I can say, and I know this, I recommend public transportation. If you`re not a people person, you have to get used to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty-three for a half a tank? Come on! This is out of control right here. (INAUDIBLE) I recommend public transportation. I swear to God, I recommend public transportation. This is crazy right here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, public transportation is the way to go, unless you live in a rural area where there is no public transportation. And let me just remind everybody that most of America, a lot of America does live in rural areas. It`s gotten to the point where now, in Austin, Texas, a man has been arrested for literally stealing thousands of gallons of gasoline.

I want to go to Ken Graef. He is the owner of a gas station that was actually robbed. Welcome, sir. What happened?

KEN GRAEF, OWNER OF ROBBED GAS STATION: Thank you. What happened was, we close at 9:00 o`clock every night because we are in a rural area, about 15 miles south of Austin. And approximately around 2:00 to 3:00 AM, this gentleman pulled in. He had a lone (ph) bed truck pulling a trailer, and there was a huge tank in the back of the truck and another one in the flatbed trailer.

And he got out a power washer, and when people would pass by on the highway, he would act like he was cleaning the concrete off for us. And the whole time, what he had done is, he had popped the lids off of the tanks and cut the locks and was pumping gas out.

GRACE: Now, to Ray Giudice, veteran defense attorney -- Ray, he did take the time to get the detergent sprayer...

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: ... and spray...

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: ... the videocamera so they couldn`t see his face as he was cracking the lot (ph) and siphoning up all the gas from the underground tank.

GIUDICE: Right. I think he dyed his hair and made some modifications to his vehicle.

GRACE: Yes, and it didn`t help.

GIUDICE: No.

GRACE: The police -- he sold the gas out of his driveway...

GIUDICE: Right.

GIUDICE: ... to neighbors and friends. And when police were there investigating, his 13-year-old girl came home and says, Dad, why did you dye your hair? OK? That didn`t help anything!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: What`s your best defense? Go ahead. Hit me.

(LAUGHTER)

GIUDICE: Gee, I guess I`m some kind of a Robin Hood defense, where he was actually taking the gas from these price gougers and redistributing it at a much fairer price to his neighbors, who needed it.

GRACE: Oh, OK. Take from the rich...

GIUDICE: Sorry!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: ... give to the poor. All right. To Ali Velshi. Is it true there are really only four places to get gas in America? You`ve got Exxon, you...

VELSHI: There are really -- there are the majors. Now, I want to remind people that most of the gas stations in this country actually are independents, and they`re not the people to take this out on because the gas station -- in the entire supply chain, you know, you`ve got the Exxons that go right from the water or the well to your gas pump, but there are a lot of people in between. And of that supply chain, the gas station owner often makes the least amount. They make, on average, 10 cents a gallon, no matter whether it`s $3.50 a gallon or a dollar a gallon. That`s what they make. So stealing gas from the gas station -- that`s the wrong -- that`s the wrong place to take it out of.

GRACE: So you think you should drive right up to Exxon corporate headquarters and...

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: I think you should drive right up to the White House. You should drive right up to Congress and say to them, Look, we need a strategy. We need a plan...

GRACE: Yes, that`s working!

VELSHI: ... to reduce our dependence on -- I know. You were in Washington the other day.

GRACE: Right.

VELSHI: You know it takes a while to get things done there.

GRACE: Yes, well...

VELSHI: but that`s where the problem is.

GRACE: And now you`ve got Washington plus the oil companies in league. So Ali, how is it that one station can have prices 5 cents higher than the one across the street? How does that work?

VELSHI: Well, you know, as I like to say, a gas station owner often makes more money on a cup of coffee than on a 20-gallon fill. What happens is, they are all bound to buy their oil, their gasoline from specific distributors. And that distributor -- depending how often they get their fill, that`s what they pay for their gas. They usually keep a fairly standard mark-up on that. So a gas station that doesn`t have other sources of revenue, like a shop or a -- you know, a garage or something like that, they`re making all their money on the gas.

GRACE: Oh, really?

VELSHI: Yes.

GRACE: And so you say you -- you say that all the time. You just slip that into conversation.

VELSHI: I do because I think it`s important to remember that we see these signs, we get mad at the gas station for changing the price. I`m not saying they don`t make money. I`m just saying that most of the money is made at the refineries and at the production level.

GRACE: Let`s go to Ken Graef on that, owner of a gas station, the gas station that was robbed. Is that true?

GRAEF: Nancy, the important thing to point out is, if we do mark the price up 10 cents, what most people don`t know is the higher gas goes, 75 percent of the people are using credit cards. Now, the banks are getting left out of the -- nobody`s bringing up the banks. They`re actually making more money than we are. They`re charging, like, 2-and-three-quarter percent for every dollar. So you`re looking at -- they`re making -- if we make -- if have it marked up 10 cents, they`re taking 7-and-a-half cents of that 10 cents, which leaves us with 2-and-a-half cents. So the banks are actually making more money than we are.

GRACE: Ken, how do you decide when your prices go up?

GRAEF: Well, whenever the...

GRACE: When you feel like it?

GRAEF: Well, no. I mean, we call -- we don`t buy directly from Exxon. We buy from I believe what`s called a jobber. And they`re the ones -- they`re a petroleum company, independent, that deliver us our gas. And so basically, we`re even getting the gas marked up a little bit because he`s making money on it when he buys it from Exxon. So we`re down the pipeline.

GRACE: Hey, Ken, this guy that allegedly stole thousands of gallons of gas from your undergrounds gas tank, what was he doing with all the gas?

GRAEF: Oh, from what I understand, he was selling it. It was in "The Austin-American Statesman" that his landlord had bought 4 55-gallon drums from him himself.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: To Tim Curran, defense attorney. What`s your best defense on this guy?

TIM CURRAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There really isn`t one. I mean, you can`t...

GRACE: OK, that`s not going to work.

CURRAN: You can`t make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. And you try the Robin Hood defense, but you`re really trying to plea-bargain this out as fast as possible on the best terms possible because he`s dead.

GRACE: Yes, he is!

Everybody, we are set to take your calls. But very quickly, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police on the lookout for a missing Windsor (ph), Florida, teen, Marlene Brito, was last seen at a local blueberry farm near Gainseville, Florida, Sunday. Marlene Brito just 4-11, 88 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. She could be with a 25-year-old man, travelling in a `94 green Plymouth van, Illinois tag 962-0400. If you have info on Marlene Brito or this vehicle, call 352-955-1818.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Higher, higher and higher. That`s where the prices are going on a gallon of gas, now up above $3.00. Let`s go to the lines. But Ali Velshi, question. Why is it, for instance, in Brazil, they have a 90-plus- percent ethanol supply?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Why can they do that and we can`t?

VELSHI: It`s got a country full of sugar cane. That`s why. It`s very efficient. They not only use the sugar cane to create ethanol, but they also use the husks and the stuff that they don`t use to fire the plants which then make this into ethanol. So that really works. But there`s a lot of that country...

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: ... that`s rural.

GRACE: ... nothing other than sugar cane we can possibly use...

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: You can use anything. You can use anything for it. In fact, President Bush, in his State of the Union...

GRACE: I don`t think you should blame it on sugar cane.

VELSHI: ... suggested corn. No, you can do it in this country, but...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: They`re doing it because they want to, Ali. They want to!

VELSHI: Yes. No. It`s efficient. It works. I agree. I think we should. But you know...

GRACE: Ninety-plus percent ethanol!

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: We can`t switch -- we can`t switch everybody over to ethanol. We need a plan. We need to know that there should be this much ethanol, that there should be this many hybrids. I tried to figure the discount I`d get on buying a hybrid in New York state. Hours, it took me. Hours, it took me! But I figured out that if I buy a Ford Escape hybrid right now, with the discount that`s being offered, versus a regular one, in three years, with my driving, I`ll have broken even. And that`s if gas is at three bucks a gallon.

All I hear from people is how it`s not a good deal, it`s not a good deal. Well, you know what? It`s a good deal if we cut down on our gasoline usage. In the end, we have to take our Republican. We use a lot of gas, and it`s supply and demand.

GRACE: Well, you`re absolutely correct. We researched that here on the show and determined it takes five years right now to make up in gas savings the difference you pay for a hybrid car.

VELSHI: At the price of gas now.

GRACE: Right.

VELSHI: At three bucks a gallon.

GRACE: Let`s go...

VELSHI: If it`s $3.50, it`s less time.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Christine in Pennsylvania. Hi, Christine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, my son, who`s 3 years old, thinks you`re very, very pretty.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know, what would you recommend...

GRACE: He`s a little young for me, but -- go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you recommend us doing to get the gas prices down?

GRACE: What can we do, Ali? What can we really do? I mean, you`ve got the Kentucky attorney general on the air tonight, and while they had the law on the books, they haven`t been able to go forward with prosecuting anyone yet.

VELSHI: Yes. There are very few prosecutions, if any, that have been successful. And I commend them for trying.

There`s two things we have to do. One is we need to put pressure Washington. They waste our time with this stuff about hundred-dollar rebates and all this. Get -- put the pressure on to come up with a national strategy.

On your own, use less gas. The next time you get a chance to make a purchasing decision about a car, buy a smaller car or a more fuel-efficient care or a hybrid car. Make those choices because if 300 million Americans start to make those choices, there will be a very, very significant difference.

GRACE: Let`s go to Connie in Georgia. Hi, Connie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy. Good evening.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why, when they say it`s not -- how can they say it`s not price gouging when the oil companies are not just bringing in record revenues because the prices are higher, but record profits?

GRACE: You know what? She`s right. The price gouging statute -- let`s go to the attorney general -- very, very confusing, Mr. Stumbo. So how can that be?

STUMBO: We think that there`s validity to what`s she`s saying, that obviously, if there are record prices following a disaster, that it indicates that they`re charging grossly excessive prices for essential consumer products, like gasoline. And that`s exactly why we`re investigating.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back, and we are taking your calls.

Let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Utah attorney general now conducting an organized crime investigation into the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its fugitive leader, Warren Jeffs. FBI and law enforcement still on the lookout for Jeffs, now on the 10 Most Wanted list, along with Usama bin Laden, for sex conduct with a minor and accomplice to rape.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What can be done about the rising prices at the gas pump?

Let`s go straight out to John in Georgia. Hi, John.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Nancy. My question is, we have a major chain grocery store in our area, and they are able to sell gas -- if you buy $100 worth of groceries a month at the store, you have a card, and you can swipe the card at the gas station and you can buy it a lot cheaper. Yesterday, I filled up at $2.48 a gallon. Now, if this grocery store chain can do it, why can`t all the other people do it?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question. Ali Velshi, does this go back to your theory that a lot of the big chains, for instance, not necessarily our smaller owner with us tonight, Ken Graef -- but they make a lot of the money on other things than the gas?

VELSHI: Well, yes. I don`t know if this is a Wal-Mart or a Costco that this person`s talking about, but yes. And if you look a company like Exxon, where they in many cases control everything -- every part of the oil supply chain, well, then, they`re making profit at every step, which means they can cut back on that. But if you`re looking at a situation where you`ve got a different refiner, a different explorer, a different distributor, like your guest who owns a gas station, has an independent gas station, well, then, everybody`s taking their piece of it, harder to bring that price down. But when it`s the big companies, it is easier to do, yes.

GRACE: To Andrew in New Jersey. Hi, Andrew.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you this evening?

GRACE: Good, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fantastic. I live in New Jersey, and our gas is pretty expensive here, and maybe it`s because we have more refineries. But my question is, why has this country stalled so long on trying to figure out alternative ways of fueling their vehicles, when we had the huge oil prices back -- rather, crisis, back in the `70s?

GRACE: You know, Ali, I`m going to throw that one back to you. Do you think it has anything to do with Washington connections to the big oil companies?

VELSHI: Well, you know, it almost doesn`t matter why it happened, but your caller is absolutely right. It`s not the first time we`ve been here. It`s not a big surprise that our gas prices are where they are. So you know what? Whatever opportunity was missed, fine. Now it`s time to get the new answers, find the fuel of the future. It`s going to be hydrogen, and how we get there, let`s figure it out and let`s head in that direction now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Durham City Manager Patrick Baker is standing by the Bull City`s officers, saying the Duke officer who wrote the report got his information secondhand.

PATRICK BAKER, DURHAM CITY MANAGER: He did not have a conversation with our officer. He did not have a conversation with the victim, and he prepared his report based on a conversation that he overheard and conclusions that he drew about the context of that conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Incredible. Apparently, a Duke police officer -- not a state, federal, local police officer, a Duke University officer -- overhears half of a conversation that`s not meant for him from a cell phone and reports it back. That, apparently, is where all the stories are coming from that the alleged rape victim in the Duke lacrosse story had changed her story.

Do I have that right? With me is Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio. Could it possibly be true, Kevin?

KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Well, Nancy, you`re quoting something that was prominently featured in the Bowen-Chambers report, part of a continuing list of reports that President Brodhead, president of Duke, has commissioned.

They made the allegation that, apparently, the witness, victim, accuser changed her story from 20 white men raped her to three men. That was later, as you correctly pointed out, found out by Durham City Manager Patrick Baker, based on a conversation he over -- or a Duke University police officer overheard from a Durham police officer the night of the alleged incident.

He and the Durham Police Department, along with the Duke Police Department, have now -- it`s kind of like a schism here, where you have the Duke Police Department saying, "We stand by their story." The Durham Police Department saying, look, we never had communication with them officially saying that the witness-accuser, her credibility was to be questioned.

This has caused Durham City Manager Patrick Baker...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Let`s start at the beginning.

K. MILLER: Sure.

GRACE: Let me get this straight. Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio, there in Raleigh, North Carolina. Is it correct that this report I`ve got in my hand -- Dusty, Dusty, if you want to show it to the viewers -- is a campus security guard`s report that, while the rape kit was being conducted at the hospital, a legitimate police officer was there talking on a cell phone, and this security guy from campus overhears a conversation and puts in there that this alleged victim claims she was raped by 20 guys and, if you look down at the bottom of the report, no suspects have been identified and this will never be more than a misdemeanor? And he wrote this up as truth.

K. MILLER: You are correct, Nancy.

GRACE: Lord have -- and so is that where all the reports of this girl changing her story, is that where that came from?

K. MILLER: According to the Bowen-Chambers report, which just came out on Monday, that really seemed initially to be a boost for the defense. But, yes, that`s where, at least part of the stories changing -- of course, you have many other defense theories concerning her credibility.

GRACE: You know, is it true that the president of the university didn`t even know this had happened until he read it in the paper?

K. MILLER: That is true, until he read it into the student paper, again according to this report that he had commissioned by William Bowen, former president of Princeton, and Julius Chambers, civil rights attorney and former chancellor at N.C. Central.

GRACE: OK, you know, another thing that I noticed in this Bowen- Chambers report is in a little footnote, a little footnote on page five, that states, "A member of the police department was there at the hospital trying to calm down and reassure the young woman," quote, "who was crying uncontrollably, visibly shaken, shaking, crying, and upset." That made it to a footnote here at the bottom of page five.

K. MILLER: Nancy, you`re right about that. And it`s strikingly -- I don`t know how dumbfounding, if you will, that, on one hand, you have a female Duke police officer, according to this report, counseling the victim, who was highly emotional, according to this report, yet Duke officials were not really told the seriousness about their allegation.

The report from the security officer, a Duke police officer who overheard the conversation of the Durham police officer, made it up the food chain, which, according to the Bowen-Chambers report, states that that`s why they didn`t take these allegations as seriously as they should.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had launched a full-scale sexual assault investigation by 4:00 or 5:00 that morning. So, again, it just doesn`t make sense that a week or 10 days later anybody thinks that the Durham Police Department wasn`t taking the case seriously or thought it would blow over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duke University has released this campus police report dated the night of the alleged rape on March 14th. It says Durham police made initial contact with the alleged victim and that she claimed she was raped by approximately 20 white males.

It goes on to say that the victim changed her story several times and, quote, "Durham police state the charges would not exceed misdemeanor simple assault."

Durham City Manager Patrick Baker is standing by the Bull City`s officers, saying the Duke officer who wrote the report got his information secondhand.

BAKER: He did not have a conversation with our officer. He did not have a conversation with the victim. And he prepared his report based on a conversation that he overheard and conclusions that he drew about the context of that conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Kevin Miller, is there going to be another indictment handed down this Monday? Are you expecting a third rape indictment, and why?

K. MILLER: No, Nancy. And at the risk of your wrath here, the reason why is Mike Nifong, since he`s been elected, has kept everything close to the vest. That is when the grand jury will meet again. That is when we expect the DNA back. And, you know, word on the street is, if it`s going to happen, it`ll happen the 15th.

GRACE: Let`s go to Laurie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Laurie.

CALLER: Hi. Hey, I really appreciate your show. I really do.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: My question is: Isn`t it illegal for somebody to take information from a private police phone call like that, which makes it third-hand information anyway?

GRACE: You know what?

CALLER: You`d think it`s third-hand (INAUDIBLE) in court.

GRACE: No, it`s not illegal to repeat something you overhear.

But, to Kevin Miller, I find it highly unethical to then put it down as truth and make it the basis of a report.

K. MILLER: Yes, Nancy, and it`s very strange that the -- not taking the charges very seriously worked its way up the Duke food chain, and the female Duke police officer that counseled the victim, the accuser, did not make it up.

And, again, as you said, President Brodhead didn`t find out about this until March 20th, didn`t find out about the racial aspects until much, much later, which this report said -- it was highly critical of Duke, saying, look, they didn`t know what was going on.

It`s strange that one did make its way up the food chain, that everything`s going to be OK, and the other one, the more serious allegation, didn`t.

GRACE: To Don Clark, the former head of the FBI Houston bureau, you know what? All this business about Duke University slowing down and choosing to believe nothing had happened if they stuck their head in their sand and their butt in the air like an ostrich it would all go away, but the reality is: Does that have anything to do with the police investigation?

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, what should have happened here is that this is a small area; this is a small community here. And if they had been working together, perhaps we would not be discussing this in the framework in which we are now, hearsay this and police officers repeating something that they heard over a telephone. This is totally improper and certainly unprofessional investigative procedures in any context.

GRACE: OK, Don, I`ve got to stop you. We`re showing the Duke University officials in their natural habitat right now. It`s a group of ostriches, and I couldn`t let you just go on like that with a serious conversation.

You know, all the while, Don, all the while, they are in charge of so much, the student affairs, how the community`s going to react, and they did nothing. But back to my original question: Did it really affect the police investigation?

CLARK: Well, of course. It may have affected the police investigation because, if somebody -- it sounds to me like there`s a possibility of them impeding the investigation and certainly not passing on information that could have assisted or aided the Durham police officers.

But what these units should have done is somewhere along the line, early on, is really gotten together, and really tried to get this evidence and this information, and do just as we call it. We call evidence in a chain, and there`s a reason for that, because it`s one piece should be connected to the other. It can`t do that if you`ve got two separate entities doing different things and not really talking to each other at all.

GRACE: And clearly on this report alone, Don, seeing one entity foiling the other entity`s investigation.

Take a listen to the alleged victim`s father.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You said that the night the DNA results came out, she cried all night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was so sad, she cried all night long, she did. She couldn`t believe it.

GRACE: What is she saying about the fact there was no DNA?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she felt like they felt that she was lying and just -- she just couldn`t take it.

GRACE: Did she describe at all the series of events that led up to the attack?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she doesn`t describe all of it. A lot of things I learned later, they really -- it really tore me apart.

GRACE: Like what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like the broom they used on her and stuff like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To psychotherapist Lauren Howard, you know, the word is that the district attorney is going forward with a third indictment. He`s just been re-elected by the local constituents; they apparently approve of this prosecution.

Do you believe that any of the other players have gone forward? I mean, this guy, the district attorney, Nifong, has got to have something?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, presumably he has to have something. What you`ve got here, though, Nancy -- and this is so frustrating to me -- everybody is running for cover.

You`ve got a systemic problem with a culture of kids who are playing too hard and kind of out of control. You have a systemic culture of a university that`s closing ranks and everybody`s covering each other`s back. You`ve got a racial situation in a town of the haves and the have-nots and this sort of undercurrent of tension.

And, really, the only thing that we should be looking at here is: Did something illegal occur? Was this woman raped? This should be about the crime, not about the culture. Different conversation.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to arrest the wrong person in any case. I only want to arrest the right person, and I want to convict the right person. And I don`t want anybody who did not commit a crime to be arrested or put on trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. New and disturbing revelations that attacks on the alleged victim`s credibility were mis-founded.

To Stephen Miller, a Duke University student and the executive of the Duke Conservative Union, you know, early on, Stephen, you had questioned the credibility of the alleged victim. Are you concerned about the credibility of the Duke leadership? I mean, they based all of their opinions on this bogus Deputy Dog report.

STEPHEN MILLER, DUKE CONSERVATIVE UNION: Well, I`ve always had concerns about the Duke leadership, although not for this particular reason. I think in this case they dealt with it in a very professional manner, in the sense that every year -- and it`s very, very sad; it`s heartbreaking, really -- college campuses across America have incidences of sexual assault, accusations of sexual assault, and verified cases of sexual assault, but I don`t want the administration having a hands-on approach with each individual case.

GRACE: But wait, no. No. No, Stephen. Let`s talk about this case. You said the Duke administration handled it properly. Why? The president of Duke didn`t even know it happened until he read it in the paper.

S. MILLER: No, I don`t think they handled it ideally at all. I think there`s absolutely room for improvement. But I think that, in terms of them initially not getting involved to begin with, it should be first and foremost a law enforcement matter.

That`s what this is. It`s an issue of investigating it from the Durham Police Department, and I don`t want the administration coming out until they have more facts about what`s going on here. I do think it`s...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So, Stephen, do you still have questions about the alleged victim`s credibility?

S. MILLER: Absolutely. I think the issue that`s not being discussed...

GRACE: What are your questions now?

S. MILLER: ... the aspect of it has to do with the incident where she stole the taxi cab, fled police, twice the legal limit for alcohol.

GRACE: Yep.

S. MILLER: And then she actually tried to, according to the police officer, tried to hit an officer with her vehicle. That shows a kind of...

GRACE: Yes, you know what? You are correct, Stephen. She was trying out for a job at a strip bar, gave a lap dance. And when the cabbie went to the bathroom, she did drive away in his cab. That is entirely correct.

So you pointed that out. And I wonder how that stacks up against the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator, the defendant`s record, for beating a guy and taunting him for being gay. We`ll see how it all shakes out in court. But...

S. MILLER: Well, in that particular case...

GRACE: Hold on, hold on.

S. MILLER: Go ahead.

GRACE: Let`s let somebody else in.

To Ray Giudice, Ray, the reality is that the victim`s so-called record will come into evidence, if she takes the stand, but the defendant`s record will never come into evidence.

GIUDICE: Yes, that`s right. And I think that, unfortunately for the victim, the longer this case drags out -- and I think the defense is probably smart to do kind of a four-corner stall on this case -- don`t be in a rush, because more and more evidence is coming out that I think helps the defense.

And also, the more time that goes by, it allows the state`s witnesses to hire their press agents and line up their book deals, which apparently is going on as we speak.

GRACE: I was just going to say that about the defense witnesses.

GIUDICE: Well, we haven`t seen any of that yet.

GRACE: Well, you know what? They did manage to marshal all of the lacrosse team...

GIUDICE: Well...

GRACE: ... reportedly and get them not to cooperate...

GIUDICE: All that...

GRACE: ... or give any statements to police, which I find highly unusual.

GIUDICE: All the D.A. has to do is give them a subpoena to that grand jury hearing.

GRACE: You`re right. You`re right about that.

GIUDICE: And put them under oath. And why hasn`t he done that?

GRACE: Maybe he didn`t need them to get the indictments, have you ever thought about that, Ray?

GIUDICE: Well, yes, but maybe he`d like to answer some of these questions, put these kids under oath, and make sure they understand the danger of perjury testimony. If you want testimony that`s truthful, put somebody under oath. You know that, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines. Kenneth in Tennessee, hi, Kenneth.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good.

CALLER: My question tonight is, basically, if these allegations are found to be untrue, how hard is it going to make it on an actual rape victim in the future...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know, Kenneth, you are so right.

Let`s go to Lauren Howard. Lauren, remember the so-called runaway bride?

HOWARD: Sure.

GRACE: And every time somebody goes missing now...

HOWARD: It`s the runaway.

GRACE: ... the response is "Jennifer Wilbanks."

HOWARD: Right, right. Well, you know, the problem with rape cases is always: Does the person even want to come forward? I mean, it`s a grueling, horrific experience for them to go through. And consistently -- and you know this, Nancy, better than anybody -- the victim becomes the criminal. I mean, it`s been that way forever.

GRACE: Tom Curran, why is it that the defendant`s record will never come in front of the jury and the victim`s will?

CURRAN: Well, because the defendant`s won`t, because they`re the ones accused of this crime. We don`t judge people on whether they have a propensity to commit a crime. They`re judged on whether, beyond a reasonable doubt, the people can prove that these people committed this crime.

GRACE: But isn`t the victim being judged, her credibility, isn`t it being judged, too?

CURRAN: Well, it`s based upon her word that these people are going to be prosecuted, so the jury has a right to know whether this person is entitled to belief.

GRACE: Well, don`t you think the jury has a right to know about any record the defendants have...

CURRAN: No, I don`t.

GRACE: ... to determine their credibility?

CURRAN: Not at all, I don`t. And...

GRACE: It`s a double-standard.

CURRAN: Sometimes they do. Sometimes they do, if it`s a related offense, and the defendant can`t sit there and say, "I`d never do something like this."

But in most cases such as this, where the defendants are charged with something, they are charged something they haven`t done something like this before, let`s see whether the proof shows beyond a reasonable doubt that they do this.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop right now before we go to break to remember Army Staff Sergeant Ricardo Barraza, 24, from California, killed in western Iraq. Barraza awarded the Purple Heart, enlisted in `99, three tours of duty. An American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER: This is going to wind up being a 24-hour hold. She`s 10-56 and unconscious (INAUDIBLE)

DISPATCHER: 10-4. You need a medical truck (INAUDIBLE)

OFFICER: She`s breathing, appears to be fine. She`s not in distress. She`s just passed-out drunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was the observation before she was even spoken to, much like this bogus security police report.

Let`s go to Nancy in Illinois. Hi, Nancy.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good.

CALLER: My question is: Isn`t it possible the accuser in the Duke rape case could have been wounded by someone else or could she have self- inflicted those wounds?

GRACE: Well, you know what? Let`s go to Kevin Miller. Didn`t the rape kit nurse say there was vaginal and anal trauma?

K. MILLER: According to what we know, what has been released, the rape kit said that those injuries were consistent with a rape, yes.

GRACE: OK. So, you know, Nancy, I don`t see that as a viable defense, but you never know what the defense is going to pull up.

To Don Clark, do you, as I do, expect an indictment on Monday of a third perp?

CLARK: Yes, I think there probably will be an indictment on Monday, because if there`s not an indictment on Monday, then it really becomes a question of evidence, there that they didn`t have anything. If they indicted the first two so quickly, yes, I do think that they probably have enough that they can indict. They still got to go to trial, as you know, and put this case together, but they can do that, and I think they probably will.

GRACE: And to Kevin Miller, what has become of the mystery DNA? And are sources telling you that this possible indictment on Monday is based on DNA results?

K. MILLER: That`s what it would have to be Nancy because, let`s face it, the evidence hasn`t changed since we had the grand jury two or three weeks ago. When the DNA comes back, if he has additional evidence, my sources tell me he didn`t have enough for the third indictment the last time the grand jury met. DNA comes back, if he has something new, that`ll lead to the third indictment.

GRACE: OK. Thank you, Kevin Miller, and thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes.

A special good night tonight from the New York control room. Good night, Rosie. Good night, Jennifer. Good night, Chris.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END