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Nancy Grace

Mack Surrenders to American Authorities in Mexico

Aired June 23, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Nevada. Darren Mack, who was on the FBI`s Most Wanted list after allegedly shooting down a Reno family court judge who presided over Mack`s divorce and the stabbing death of his wife -- Mack eluding multiple police agencies -- tonight, Mack is behind bars and cooling his heels in a Texas holding cell after a dramatic surrender in Mexico.
And tonight, murder mystery in Oregon. Two teachers go for a backwoods getaway, found slain, along with the dog. That`s right, the dog is murdered, too. We analyze the clues that were left behind. And we are taking your calls.

But first tonight, to Nevada for breaking news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mack was apprehended at 10:30 PM, Reno time last night through the efforts of the Reno Police Department, the Washoe County district attorney`s office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Mexican authorities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Again, Dennis (SIC) Mack cooling his heels in a Texas holding cell. We never thought that he would come in without a fight. We were wrong.

Let`s go to Dennis Myers, news editor with "The Reno News and Review." Hi, Dennis. Thank you for being with us. Tell me about the surrender.

DENNIS MYERS, "RENO NEWS AND REVIEW": Well, again, it`s Darren Mack, not Dennis Mack.

GRACE: Thank you.

MYERS: But officials, in a general sense, had an idea of where Mack was, in Baja, California, because he had been spotted there and a tip provided to law enforcement. The fugitive is a personal friend of our local prosecutor, Richard Gammick. On Monday, Gammick set up a dialogue with Mack through some on-line postings that led to some phone conversations. Either because of those contacts or for Mack`s own reasons, at some point, he agreed to surrender at the U.S. consulate, or at a hotel -- there are differing accounts -- in Puerto Vallarta on Thursday morning.

He failed to appear at that time but did surrender in the afternoon on Thursday. Mack apparently agreed to a return to the U.S. without a court fight because he was flown back to the U.S. on a commercial airliner today, arriving at Ft. Worth-Dallas. He was booked into a Dallas hotel on a warrant charging him with murdering Charla Mack, his estranged wife. Nevada`s governor, meanwhile, made his plane available to police, and they flew down to pick Mack up.

The presumption is that since he surrendered and did not fight return to the U.S., that he won`t fight extradition from Texas to Nevada. I`ve not heard that the plane is on its way back, but we have been told that Mack may well be back here tonight. In all likelihood, they will try to make the move as soon as possible against the possibility of a change of mind.

As you can imagine, there`s relief in many quarters here, not the least Mack`s own family. Some people, such as Judge Weller and the Mack children, have been under guard or in hiding or both because Mack was still at large. Others, such as a former boyfriend of Charla Mack, have been apprehensive.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darren Roy Mack was apprehended in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, overnight, and this morning was flown to the Dallas-Ft. Worth International Airport, where he was arrested by the airport police department on a warrant charging him with the June 12 murder of his estranged wife, Charla Mack.

Mack was apprehended at 10:30 PM Reno time last night through the efforts of the Reno Police Department, the Washoe County district attorney`s office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Mexican authorities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Dennis Myers with "The Reno News and Review." Was it a surprise? So many people thought Mack would not give up without a fight.

MYERS: I think it was a surprise that he surrendered. And I think the assumption was that he was making for a -- some place that he could not be returned from. And it all came to a sudden head. And it was -- so that was unexpected, that he gave up without trying to make his way to an area that was -- legally, he would be better protected from.

GRACE: As you may have heard by now, Darren Mack, on the FBI Most Wanted list after allegedly shooting, taking a shot at a judge that was presiding over his divorce, Judge Charles Weller, inside the judge`s chambers -- the judge survived the shooting wound, and he did that from three football lengths away from the judge, sniper-style -- and for the murder of his wife, Charla, found stabbed to death -- an incredible story.

Let`s get to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Now, authorities had one surrender arranged, and that fell through. What happened with that, Ed Miller? And then what changed in 24 hours to make him give it up?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, Nancy, you know I always try to bring you some exclusive stuff, so let me hit you with this right off the top. No one knows this yet except you. When they caught Mr. Mack, he had $36,000...

GRACE: Whew!

MYERS: ... in cash with him on his person -- $36,000 in cash. So you can only imagine what he was planning. And there are strong speculation that there was an awful lot of other stashes of cash in other countries.

So to answer your question about exactly what happened, let`s go back just a little bit. The district attorney -- because our cameras were inside these negotiations going on with the police and the district attorneys -- the district attorney firmly felt that he had a deal earlier in the week. He thought it was cut and dried and everything was set. And they based this on trust. They had lengthy negotiations about trust. And that subject was all about trust, even before they got into when and where he was going to give himself up.

So once he didn`t give himself up, the district attorney announced -- he said, in other words, Let`s move in for the kill, we are really going to get him, he`s broken the trust. And at that point, he actually -- I wrote down exactly what he said. He said, This is really dangerous now because he has told me in conversations he knows his life is messed up, he`s at the end of his rope, and he has nothing else to lose. And he feels that his mission is not yet finished. And we know what that means. We`re assuming that had something to do with the shooting of the judge.

GRACE: You know, I`m really surprised, though, Ed Miller, how anyone can trust someone, or think they have a trust relationship with a guy that takes a shot at a judge, a sniper shot, stabs their wife multiple times and drags her bloody body across the floor of the garage while the little 8- year-old girl is in the next -- is there in the house and then takes off to Mexico. How did they think they had a position of trust with this guy?

MILLER: Well, and again, another very good question. Because these are old chums. I don`t want to use the word "friends," but they`re old acquaintances. So it`s, Hello, Darren. Hello, Dick. You know, Come on, Darren. You know, You got nowhere to go, you know, that kind of a thing. So when I say trust, that`s how they based the conversations on because they`ve known each other for a long time.

Remember, Reno is really a small town and these two guys were big shots in a small town. They served on charity boards together, that sort of thing. Remember, Darren Mack is a millionaire. He`s a big deal over there, so -- and the district attorney is obviously a big deal. So again, to go back to that conversation, that`s really what the trust is all about. When the trust was broken, the district attorney said, Let`s move in.

Now, I know for a fact this is what happened. They had kind of zeroed in on where he was located. They followed him -- I don`t want to give too much away because I promised the police we wouldn`t. But they were following his telephone card. They knew he had ditched the car. He was not driving around, he was traveling by bus. And so they zeroed in on those bus routes, and they made it perfectly clear to him that, We are going to get you. You`re either going to turn yourself in, or we`re going to get you.

Now, I know one other big piece of exclusive information is that he kind of let it out in one of the conversations -- he being Darren Mack -- that he was deathly afraid of ending up in a Mexican jail. So one of the strategies that they did was to parade the Federales all around the area of Puerto Vallarta to scare him, that Uh-oh, the Federales are going to get me, they`re going to throw me in a Mexican jail, which we know is a fate worse than hell.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Why is he so afraid of going to a Mexican jail?

MILLER: Because the inhumane conditions in a Mexican jail compared to...

GRACE: Ah. Interesting. To you, Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Isn`t that interesting? Here`s a guy who will hide out in a parking garage, anonymous, and take a sniper shot at a judge in his own chambers, minding his own business, and then take his wife, a tiny little lady, stab her to death, multiple stab wounds, drag her across the garage. The big bully, now he`s afraid of a Mexican jail.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think a guy like this is really all about control, Nancy. We`ve seen that on his toomuchfun (ph) site. He wants a woman who`s not controlling. And I think he was devastated when the judge took control -- his control away, his control over Charla. So I think he was allowed to save face, and in his mind, he was controlling his surrender and apprehension. He`d have no control in a Mexican jail.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mack turned himself in to the FBI and Mexican law enforcement officials at a resort in Puerto Vallarta and remained with them throughout the night until arrangements could be made for his travel back to the United States. He arrived at the Dallas-Ft. Worth airport on an American Airlines flight at approximately 10:00 AM Reno time.

Mack`s apprehension took place one day after he failed to meet a commitment he made to the Washoe County district attorney and to the Reno Police Department to turn himself in to the consulate in Puerto Vallarta. Notification had been made to the Mexican government that Mack was possibly in Mexico, based on investigative information indicating he was on the west coast of Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Elizabeth. Let`s go to Jackie in Ohio. Hi, Jackie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m a big fan of your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why was their daughter given temporary custody to Darren`s family, as opposed to Charla`s?

GRACE: Jackie, I asked the same question, and this is my understanding, that the paternal grandparents lived nearby, and the little girl had grown up being with them on and off through her life, and that the maternal grandparents lived further away. She was not as familiar with them.

But you know what? Let`s doublecheck that. What about it, Dennis Myers?

MYERS: ... that she has a bond with them, but that`s not to say that the -- that Charla Mack`s family has been excluded. They have open access to her.

GRACE: Joining us right now, special guest Norm Early, spokesperson with the National District Attorneys Association. Norm, thank you for being with us.

NORM EARLY, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSN. SPOKESMAN: Sure.

GRACE: The district attorney said at a press conference that there were personal discussions about the surrender, about the entire situation, about Mack possibly seeing his family. As a district attorney, is that unusual?

EARLY: It`s fairly unusual. But remember, the key here was to get Mr. Mack behind bars, worry about the legal implications of the statements that he made at a later date. This is an individual who has already proven that he will, in fact, kill. He had killed his wife. And you know, Nancy, just like I do, from a prosecutor`s perspective, stabbing somebody is an up-close and personal death. It`s not something that`s distant, like shooting them. And he had shot a judge.

So under these circumstances, the district attorney, Dick Gammick -- and he`s a good district attorney -- pulled out all stops to get this man behind bars. And this was some awfully good police work here, to get him apprehended as quickly as he was, as well as some good work on the part of the DA.

GRACE: Let`s go out to Don Clark, former head of the FBI Houston bureau. Don, thank you for being with us again tonight. Don, flying back on a commercial airline? Ixnay! How do you work a surrender like that? That was very dangerous.

DON CLARK, FORMER HEAD OF FBI HOUSTON BUREAU: Well, it`s not as dangerous as it may appear because the marshals and the people who take these prisoners on board a plane, they`re very capable of keeping them away from passengers and keeping them secure in a manner where the passengers may not even know that they`re on there.

But Nancy, I have to say two things here are really significant. One is the technical aspect of law enforcement, being able to really get a handle on where he is, and the second was getting this guy on the FBI`s 10 Most Wanted list. I think that was the key of being able to negotiate and talk to the Mexican authorities and get them to work with them, therefore getting him back so that they could fly him on a commercial plane.

GRACE: Don, how do you graduate to the FBI Most Wanted list? That`s pretty impressive.

CLARK: It is. It is, and because the FBI has a system that they are very selective, if you will, about the criminals that they put on there. But this was a significant one. Number one, he`s accused of conducting this brutal murder of his wife. And now he`s shot a judge, also accused of shooting a judge. And so when you put those two together, that kind of rises to a different level. So it goes back to Washington, and Washington immediately reviews it and decides, OK, we`re going to put him on there.

And what that also does, Nancy, it gives you FBI agents all over the world now who are going to have a little bit of a hand, if need be, in working this case. And also, it increases the money that can be put in, in case somebody turns this guy in. So it`s a real big benefit if you can get somebody on that list.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Joe in Florida. Hi, Joe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, there, Nancy. Is it possible that the district attorney made a deal with Mack that if he turned himself in, he could avoid the death penalty?

GRACE: I`ve been asking that. What do you know about that, Ed Miller? Ed`s with us from "America`s Most Wanted."

MILLER: Well, I can tell you this. I know for a fact, again, that one of the conversations did involve the death penalty. So they discussed it. I do not know, and they`re certainly not saying, whether or not a deal was cut. That`s -- you`re going to have to find that out yourself, and I`m sure you will in the next couple days.

GRACE: Let`s go out to Doug Burns, defense attorney. Doug, I`ve been taking a look at the circumstances for aggravation for death penalty in Nevada. It is a death penalty state. And right off the bat, Doug, the murder was committed by a person who knowingly created a great risk of death to more than one person by means of a weapon. I can`t think of anything that fits more to the T than shooting into a fully functioning courthouse during business hours, right in the middle of the day, Doug.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, there`s no question. But again, I looked at the law -- I`m a New York lawyer, obviously, but there are something like 10 aggravating factors...

GRACE: I know.

BURN: ... in Nevada law. They`ve executed something like 11 people since the late `70s. I agree with you, I mean, but we have to wait and see what the story is. But again, I always felt that it was an odd mixture between, as experts have been saying tonight, this up-close, intense emotional crime and then the detached sniper. I think it`s a fascinating mixture, and I think the circumstances of his apprehension are absolutely fascinating.

GRACE: We will all be right back. If you don`t know by now, the manhunt for Darren Mack, who graduated to the FBI Most Wanted list right in there with Osama bin Laden, has been captured, after gunning down a judge in his chambers, back on, I believe, June 12, stabbing his wife to death -- all these are allegations right now -- dragging her body across the garage floor, the little girl, the daughter, 8 years old, in the house. He has been apprehended at resort in Mexico.

Very quickly, to tonight`s Amber Alert. The search for a missing baby boy taken from Seattle`s Children`s Hospital, baby Riley Rodgers, set for life-saving kidney surgery, kidnapped from the hospital, concealed in a bag. Riley (INAUDIBLE) serious (INAUDIBLE) danger. Thirty-five-year-old Tina Marie Carlson (ph) is wanted. She may be driving a black `87 Jeep Wagoneer, Washington state plates -- take a look -- 990 LFZ. If you have information, call Seattle police, 206-625-5011.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The party is over, Mack. Darren Mack finally cooling his heels in a Texas holding cell after a crime rampage starting in Reno, Nevada. Now, here`s a guy that had it all, net worth, millions of dollars, pulling down $500,000, that we know of, that was reported to the IRS, a year, beautiful wife, lovely family, palatial home. He goes crazy when he doesn`t like judge`s rulings in his divorce, takes a shot at a judge, nearly kills him, and according to police, does kill his wife, Charla. He was found at a Mexican resort. Not so anymore. He flew back on an American Airlines flight with police.

Welcome back, everybody. I want to go straight back to Ed Miller, "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent. Ed, what I don`t understand is why he would not turn himself in when it was all arranged, and then within 24 hours, there was some metamorphosis and he suddenly turned himself in.

MILLER: Again, another great question. The first time, they thought for sure the deal had been cut. From what I understand, the police feel that other parties talked him out of it. In other words, Darren was ready to do it, but some other parties, perhaps attorneys or some other people, friends, whatever, talked him out of it and raised some other issues. And that`s, again, when the police put the pressure on and said, You know what? If he`s not going to do it and we can`t trust him, let`s put the pressure on him and try to arrange it again, but at the same time try to close in on him, you know, tighten the noose.

GRACE: Right. So he could look out of the windows at his resort hotel -- I understood yesterday he was lounging poolside -- and see Mexican authorities. And I`m not sure how it played out with his defense attorney because turning himself in the way that he did, he is open to the death penalty, unless there`s some secret deal.

Let`s go to the lines. Kim in Illinois. Hi, Kim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, the friend that met Darren Mack with Darren Mack`s daughter -- I was wondering if he actually knew what was going on or if he`s been questioned.

GRACE: Yes. She is talking about the affiant, the person that swore under oath to circumstances surrounding Charla Mack`s death in the search warrant. It was the basis for the search of Mack`s home. This guy was requested by Mack to drive the little girl over to the home. And long story short, yes, he has been questioned -- that`s an excellent question, Kim in Illinois -- to find out if he was in collusion in any way or knew what was going down. Yes, he has been questioned.

Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. But let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." A major terrorist plot intended for U.S. soil thwarted. Targeted, buildings in Miami, Chicago and other cities, including courthouses and the Chicago Sears tower, the scheme cooked up not by al Qaeda but by Americans, indictments handed down against seven so- called home-grown terrorists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This group was seven defendants was led by Narseale Batiste, also known as Brother Nas. They met at a building in Miami-Dade County that Batiste referred to as "the embassy." Their intent was to wage violent jihad against the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our family, as it was, has been forever destroyed by the barbaric and heinous acts of June the 12th. In spite of these acts, we have also experienced great goodness here in Reno, and we would like to publicly in this forum thank those who have graciously assisted us, most notably the women and men of the Reno Police Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the federal marshals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the brother of the victim, Charla Mack, speaking out. There she is, the mother of Darren Mack`s child.

Joining us now, a very special guest, David Chesnoff, Darren Mack`s defense attorney. Welcome, David. It`s nice to speak to you again.

DAVID CHESNOFF, DARREN MACK`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nice to speak to you, Ms. Grace.

GRACE: Did you convince Mack to turn himself in?

CHESNOFF: I`m not going to discuss my conversations because those would be privileged, but I...

GRACE: OK. What can you tell us?

CHESNOFF: I can tell you that he had alternatives in the Mexican justice system. He chose to voluntarily return and peaceably surrender and make his way back to the United States so he could be with his family and defend himself.

GRACE: With us, Mack`s attorney, David Chesnoff. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Darren Mack had graduated all the way to the FBI`s most wanted list. Not anymore. He is not wanted. He is caught, cooling his heels in a Texas holding facility.

Joining us now, special guest, David Chesnoff. This is Darren Mack`s defense attorney.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Chesnoff. Will your client fight extradition from Texas back to Reno?

CHESNOFF: No, Mr. Scott Freeman and myself, who`s my co-counsel, Mr. Freeman and I have decided that it`s consistent with Mr. Mack`s decision to voluntarily return to Reno. And I`m looking forward to visiting with him shortly.

GRACE: Was visiting with his family part of his condition of return?

CHESNOFF: I`m not going to discuss -- there were no conditions that I`m aware of. He just wanted to come back and defend himself, Nancy.

GRACE: Do you think this will be a death penalty case?

CHESNOFF: I`ve been in Nevada a long time. I don`t know enough about the facts to say whether or not the prosecutor would make it a death penalty case. Obviously, as a defense lawyer who doesn`t believe the state should execute people, I would hope it wouldn`t be.

GRACE: So the answer is you don`t know yet. Regarding the prosecutor, the elected district attorney, he has recused himself. Why?

CHESNOFF: I didn`t know that. That`s news to me. Usually, when somebody recuses themselves, it`s because they think they`re in a position of a conflict or they`re a witness.

GRACE: Correct. Let`s confirm that.

Dennis Myers, has the elected district attorney recused himself from the case?

MYERS: Yes. Richard Gammick, our district attorney, local prosecutor, is taking himself off the case. And the decision on the death penalty presumably will be made by the assistant district attorney or the issue came up today it may be taken entirely out of the Washoe County district attorney`s office and turned over to a prosecutor in another county.

GRACE: Right.

To Tiffany Koenig, veteran defense attorney, Tiffany, just legally speaking, wouldn`t it be wise to take the case totally out of that district attorney`s office?

Because when your boss that hires you at his pleasure -- these are at- will employees -- this is a long-time friend of his -- Mack and the D.A., Gammick, go way, way, way back 20 years or so -- it`s going to be very difficult to prosecute one of your boss`s friends.

TIFFANY KOENIG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. The assistant, obviously, is working at the county attorney`s pleasure. And, certainly, he`s going to be consulting with him, regardless of -- frankly, the county just needs to get out of the case.

The attorney general`s office needs to step in just to get rid of that appearance of impropriety. Frankly, it would just look really bad for that county attorney`s office to continue to prosecute this case.

GRACE: Right. And in addition from just the appearance of impropriety, I mean, it can be very persuasive when your boss has a personal attachment. I really respect Gammick. No one asked him to step off the case; no one asked him to recuse himself. He did it out of a very strong sense of ethics.

Back to Darren Mack`s defense attorney, a veteran trial lawyer himself, David Chesnoff, what was the resort your client was at when he decided to surrender himself?

CHESNOFF: I`m not aware that he was at any resort.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Was he at a hotel?

CHESNOFF: I would add that the professionalism of the D.A. is real, and he`s a respected lawyer in Nevada. And if that`s the decision he`s made, that`s consistent with his reputation.

GRACE: Right. I`m talking about where your client was at the time he decided to surrender himself. Was he at a hotel, a motel, what?

CHESNOFF: I think law enforcement`s in a better position to answer that question. I was in Las Vegas...

GRACE: Were you speaking to him?

CHESNOFF: I spoke to him at relevant points of time. But where he was would be information that wouldn`t be appropriate for me to discuss.

GRACE: OK.

Ed Miller, do we have any idea where Mack was residing at the time he decided to surrender?

MILLER: I do not know whether or not he was staying at that hotel that he turned himself in. I do not believe he was staying there.

It is my understanding that they purposely picked the hotel as a safe haven to turn himself in so he felt that there would be people around. So, again, that the federales would not grab him, but that an FBI agent would and that he would be safe, again, in the hands, he felt, of U.S. officials rather than Mexican authorities.

GRACE: Well, I mean, the heat was definitely on him, Doug Burns. They had been, apparently, triangulating cell phone cells. He had given up enough information that they knew where he was. Long story short, it was going to happen sooner or later.

But I am intrigued by the fact that there are reports of Darren Mack lounging poolside at a Mexican resort.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: This is after multiple stab wounds in the murder of his wife and taking a shot at a family court judge.

BURNS: Yes, I mean, you made the key point last night, which is they actually pulled the records on the phone card, the international phone card that he was using, and they ended up locating him.

As far as lounging poolside, I mean, you know, I understand where that bothers you. But I think the reality of it is, is that the guy was under intense tremendous pressure. I`m not so sure he was having quite as good a time as you`re making it sound.

There`s also a lot of issues about international law and Mexican extradition. His lawyer, Mr. Chesnoff, referred to the fact that he had a lot of options under Mexican law.

GRACE: You know, that`s a good point. Let`s go back to David Chesnoff. Thank you, Doug.

BURNS: Sure.

GRACE: You did mention that he had several alternatives within the Mexican system. What were they?

CHESNOFF: Well, I understand that certain writs can be filed, especially when there`s a case where the death penalty is being discussed. And, of course, there are your traditional extradition treaty options and procedures.

But again, as I stated earlier, he wanted to come back and be with his family and defend himself. And I appreciate the chance to speak to you this evening, Nancy, but if you don`t mind, I have to cut out and head to an airport and go see my client.

GRACE: Mr. Chesnoff, you are a trial veteran lawyer. I can`t say really I wish you good luck, but I wish you the best, sir, and we hope you`ll join us again in the coverage of this case as you continue your defense of Darren Mack. Thank you for being with us.

CHESNOFF: I appreciate it, and thank you for having me. Have a nice evening.

GRACE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

I`m going to go back to our two trial veteran lawyers, Doug Burns and Tiffany Koenig. Here`s the real deal: He knew they were closing in on him. He could actually look out his resort room window and see police. That was part of the tactic of getting him to surrender.

Yes, if the Mexican authorities had had him, Tiffany Koenig, he may not have been extradited. Mexico does not represent the death penalty. But those same rules do not apply if the U.S. federal government nabs you in Mexico in your luxury hotel. All right? It`s out the window. Forget about it. You will face the death penalty if the state decides, agree or disagree, Tiffany?

KOENIG: I can`t even understand why he would turn himself over to the United States government officials, when you`ve got the Mexican authorities sitting right there. And he knows that he can get out of doing the death penalty if he turns himself into the Mexican authorities and then goes through extradition proceedings there, because then the United States has to agree that they not proceed with the death penalty or seek the death penalty in his case. It`s almost like a freebie for him.

GRACE: Liz, do we have John from Idaho on the line? Let`s go out to the lines then. John in Idaho, are you still with us?

CALLER: I sure am.

GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?

CALLER: My question is: Since this guy has got, like, millions of dollars, I was wondering if the judge was going to grant him, like, bond or bail or something like that?

GRACE: Oh, you evil, evil legal eagle. You`re suggesting bond in a guy that stabbed his wife to death and took a shot at a family court judge? But, you know what, John? You`re right: It may be considered.

Let`s talk about all that money John is Idaho is talking about. John is correct. Clark, what can you tell me about this guy?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Here`s someone, Nancy, he owns a pawnshop. He`s claiming $46,000 -- not for the year, for the month -- on his income taxes. Yes, about $600k per year.

GRACE: Sorry, I kind of coughed that one up. Go ahead.

GOLDBAND: He`s worth millions and millions of dollars, OK? So the judge says: You need to pay spousal support, $10,000-a-month spousal support. Now, I don`t think Darren Mack liked that very much.

GRACE: Ten-thousand-a-month spousal support?

GOLDBAND: On top of that, $800-a-month child support. Now, get this: Here`s what set Mack off. He had to pay for lawn, gas, pool, Jacuzzi, water, pest control -- I could go on and on, Nancy. So you can certainly see why Darren Mack may have been a little upset at Judge Weller.

GRACE: Well, interesting that you seem to be poor-mouthing that he had to pay his wife so much, including her cable, her water, and so forth, Clark. This is what happens in a divorce case.

When a woman wants out of a divorce, Patricia Saunders, when her husband allegedly has been attending swingers conventions in Costa Rica, in Mexico, all around the world. I want to say that`s pretty good grounds for divorce. You wake up, and your husband brings home, not one other woman, but nine, 10, 11 of them, just, you know, a thought? Yes, you pay my cable! You`re damn right you`re going to pay my cable!

SAUNDERS: What I think is fascinating and chilling, Nancy, is that he never once asked the district attorney in their conversations about his children. He told him to send his love to his mother and his brother. So this is not Mr. Family Guy either.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to figure out why I keep getting back in here so much. I think there`s more of a feeling of stalking of coming through the back of the brush. He watched them; I think he watched them for some time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A murder mystery in the Oregon woods. Two teachers go on a camping trip getaway, and they are found slain, and their little dog, Caesar, all three of them murdered.

Right now, not a clue. Can you help us analyze what clues we have to crack the case?

Let`s go straight out to Mark Nelson. He is the lead detective with the Lane County sheriff`s department on this case. Mark, thank you for being with us, sir. What happened to Steve Haugen and Jeanette Bauman?

MARK NELSON, DETECTIVE, LANE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Last year, on July 1st, or probably the day before July 1st, they were in the Willamette National Forest, south of the town of Oakridge, Oregon. They were either camping or out on a day trip. We`re not exactly sure at the moment. However, they were found on the (INAUDIBLE) deceased on a very rural spur road, off of a forest service road.

GRACE: So they were actually on a road?

NELSON: It`s a spur road. It`s not a road that somebody would normally take traveling...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Correct, but they were on a road, not out amongst the trees?

NELSON: It`s forested. The road`s more of a path.

GRACE: Ah, I see. I see. Were they on foot or were they in their vehicle?

(CROSSTALK)

NELSON: Pardon?

GRACE: Were they on foot or in their vehicle?

NELSON: They were out of their vehicle.

GRACE: How far away was their vehicle from them?

NELSON: Probably 50, 75 feet.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Kelly Haugen. This is the daughter of victim Stevan Haugen.

Kelly, thank you for being with us.

KELLY HAUGEN, DAUGHTER OF VICTIM STEVAN HAUGEN: Thanks for having me on your show. I appreciate it.

GRACE: Kelly, what can you tell us about the case? We want to help.

HAUGEN: It`s been a very hard case, just dealing with the whole thing from the beginning. It`s been frustrating. Of course, we want to see justice more than anything right now. We need some leads; we need some direction to go towards.

GRACE: Kelly, what do you think happened?

HAUGEN: You know, I can speculate, but I just really don`t know. The last I heard is that they were planning a camping trip up there, and then I got the bad news call. So I really can`t speculate what happened up there. I really don`t know.

GRACE: When was the last time you talked to your dad?

HAUGEN: I couldn`t imagine anybody wanting to hurt them.

GRACE: When was the last time you talked to your dad?

HAUGEN: It was Father`s Day.

GRACE: Joining us also, Gary Bauman. He is the son of Jeanette Bauman, also slain there on the camping trip.

Gary, thank you for being with us.

GARY BAUMAN, SON OF VICTIM JEANETTE BAUMAN: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: I know this must be so painful for these, every month, every week that goes by, not to have answers. When did you learn your mom had been killed?

BAUMAN: I got a call late on the 1st, down in Anaconda at my mother- in-law`s house. And it was like about 2:00 in the morning when they finally tracked me down as to where I was at.

GRACE: And what happened?

BAUMAN: Well, it was kind of one of those surprising things. Those aren`t phone calls that you really want to get. They actually called the police department and my home. And they ended up connecting me -- someone knew where I was at, so they connected me down there.

From that point on, you know, you go through the denial of it all and you just -- you get really upset. And I had to start letting family know, so I spent a lot of time on the phone calling family in the middle of the night.

GRACE: Gary, what do you believe happened to your mom?

BAUMAN: I think they were victims of wrong place at the wrong time. I wish I could say more. But they`re such kind people. They were such wonderful people that they wouldn`t leave anything alone. If something was going wrong around them, they would get involved. That`s the kind of people that they were, that involvement.

GRACE: What did your mom teach? What did you mom teach, Gary?

BAUMAN: She taught business for four years.

GRACE: From what I understand, a beloved teacher.

And, Kelly, what about your dad?

HAUGEN: He was also a teacher and a guidance counselor for many years. He taught track. He was a track coach. He taught fifth-graders reading his last year in Oakridge, as well as counseling and the track coach. So he`s definitely all about education, and helping kids out, and getting them to be successful in life.

GRACE: Both of these victims dedicated to the school system, go on a camping trip, minding their own business. They are found slain, along with their dog, Caesar. The killer also took the time to murder their little dog.

The tip line: 541-682-4167.

There is a $10,000 reward for help to crack this case.

Let`s go to Lisa Bloch. She`s a producer with the Discovery Channel that became attracted to this case when she learned psychics had actually been brought in to crack the case.

Welcome, Lisa. Thank you for being with us. What did you think about the psychics coming in?

LISA BLOCH, PRODUCER, DISCOVERY CHANNEL: Well, we`re doing a new series called "Sensing Murder." And the idea is to bring in psychics to have them work on an active investigation, an ongoing investigation, to help find new perspectives, bring their own theories as to what happened in the case.

And in this instance, you know, I think the detective, Sergeant Ben Slater (ph) and Detective Mark Nelson, were very, very open to any new information that our psychics could bring them.

GRACE: Did they help?

BLOCH: I believe they did. I believe they helped rejuvenate the case. They helped bring a new perspective, new ideas. And I think that the detectives now have some information and some new issues and things that they`re interested in looking at.

GRACE: To Mark Nelson, the lead detective on this case with the Lane County sheriff`s department, do you think you learned anything by bringing in a psychic? Which way is the case going, the investigation?

NELSON: Well, I think we gained some new insight and some different areas to look at that we weren`t looking at before.

GRACE: Yes. Very quickly, which way is the investigation going? What are your theories, your working theories?

NELSON: Well, it`s still active at this point. We really can`t say if we believe this, you know, was intentional, or just targeted, or random, because of the (INAUDIBLE) investigation. We`re actively pursuing all leads.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Judge Eileen Gallagher throws a rape of a nine-year-old girl out of court. Why? Because the prosecutor was late to court. Cleveland Judge Eileen Gallagher, you are in contempt!

EILEEN GALLAGHER, CLEVELAND JUDGE: This is a court of law where there are rules, and rules are necessary for organized society. And the court has an obligation to make sure...

GRACE: To seek justice.

GALLAGHER: ... that due process of law is followed.

GRACE: To seek justice, Judge.

A crime so bad in the Big Easy that the state has called in the National Guard to keep the peace.

Anderson Cooper with us tonight, a one-on-one interview with Angelina Jolie...

(CROSSTALK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I love the way you say her name, too, Angelina Jolie.

GRACE: I majored in French. Why the interview? Please tell me it`s not about Shiloh Nouvelle, the baby.

COOPER: No, it wasn`t. It`s really about the 15 million refugees around the world and displaced people.

GRACE: A shootout at a Tallahassee prison now claims that the life of a federal agent is not shot by prisoners, allegedly shot after he tells prison guards they are suspected of corruption in a drugs-for-sex scheme.

Breaking news out of Miami. Believe it or not, federal officials now saying seven arrested in connection with the early stages of a plot to attack Chicago`s Sears Tower and other buildings in the U.S. The alleged terrorists are mainly American.

Darren Mack now on the FBI`s most wanted list after allegedly shooting down the Reno judge that presided over his divorce and the stabbing death of his own wife on the run. Is there finally a break in the search for Darren Mack?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Tonight, we remember Army Specialist James W. Gardner, 22, killed, Iraq. Gardner hails from Glasgow, Kentucky, received many awards, including the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. He wanted to join the Army from the time he was 16 years old. James W. Gardner, an American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you is to you, for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. And tonight, good- bye to a friend of the show. From a family of five generations of women who watch every night, good-bye "Nana," Ann St. John (ph).

And congratulations, Mickey Sherman, you finally did it. Mickey Sherman, Lis Wiehl got married just a few hours ago.

Signing off for tonight, everyone. See you here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END