Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Possible Three Serial Killers in Phoenix

Aired July 11, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, Phoenix, Arizona, not one, not two, but three possible serial criminals. Nine murders, forty shootings, serial sex assaults have brought a chill to the desert town. Who is stalking the city of Phoenix?
And tonight, to Florida, day two jury selection in the murder trial of John Evander Couey. With a detailed murder confession thrown out of evidence, will there ever be justice for 9-year-old Jessie Lunsford?

Tonight, we are taking your calls. But first tonight, to Arizona, where police now acknowledge an unknown, unnamed serial killer. What can we learn from the clues left behind?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have 19 crimes that we`re looking at that may be related. We believe that the suspect or suspects who may be involved in the shootings are driving in a car and shooting the victims from a vehicle.


GRACE: Straight out to Newsradio 620 KTAR reporter Jayme West. What is going on in Phoenix?

JAYME WEST, NEWSRADIO 620: Well, there`s a lot going on here, and it`s scary, to tell you the truth. We just asked Phoenix police and the mayor and others who`ve just conclude add press conference downtown, and they tell us now those three possible serial killers may actually be two. They have combined investigations on two incidents. One is the serial shooter, who`s believed responsible for at least 25 shootings...

GRACE: Whew!

WEST: ... and four deaths of people, also three horses and five dogs killed. And the other, 13 random shootings that have happened just this past May. None of those people died in those shootings. They now say they may all be linked to one single person, a combined 34 shootings.

GRACE: And how many deaths?

WEST: A total of four deaths of people, along with three horses and five dogs. They`re shooting people and animals. The other serial...

GRACE: Here`s...

WEST: Go ahead.

GRACE: Here`s what the mayor had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For reasons most of us will never understand, the world has always had its share of people with bad intentions and no conscience. And right now in Phoenix, we`re chasing at least two of these monsters.

We`re all working 24/7 to get these guys off the street, and we will. I`m a father, I`m a husband, and I`m a longtime resident of Phoenix. And this city that we all love so much will never, never stop chasing these criminals and any others like them.


GRACE: Out to Sergeant Andy Hill with the Phoenix Police Department. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. I listened to the press conference, and I was very, very concerned. What I took away from it was the mayor saying they`ve got a great town, number one. Please go out, but watch your back. That was not very reassuring. And three, that there is a $100,000 reward.

What more can you tell us that we learned or did you learn from the press conference?

SGT. ANDY HILL, PHOENIX POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, Nancy, I`ve been working with those who`ve been working on this case for a long time, and I think what the essence of what the mayor is saying is that he loves this community, which is true. And he`s got a great heart for the citizens here. When some people suffer, we all suffer. We, as police officers, live here.

There`s a lot going on with these cases, and it`s been going on for a long time. This so-called "Baseline rapist" we actually believe is a serial killer, is somebody that is a predator, that`s been around about a year now, and we certainly are continually going out to the public for help, and have been for some time, in trying to catch this person.

GRACE: Sergeant Andy Hill is with us, with the Phoenix Police Department. Sergeant Hill, why do you believe it`s the same person? I mean, this is a mass number of shootings and now murders.

HILL: Well, again, we have two very distinctive groups of cases here. As far as this serial killer case is concerned, we have -- the incidents began last August with sexual assaults, robbing and kidnapings. And as you know, it took time to begin to process those cases, and eventually, we began 20 tie them, associate them. But in December 12 of last year, 39- year-old Tina Washington (ph) was murdered. That was our first murder that we became aware of. At that point, of course we now knew that this suspect was going to continue to escalate in violence. We had a lot of heightened awareness there. We`ve intensified our efforts. And since then, we`ve now got a total of five homicides, and as a matter of fact, we may be looking at a sixth homicide from another jurisdiction.

GRACE: Whew!

HILL: And those homicides are tied together by forensic evidence. The other cases...

GRACE: Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh~! Forensic evidence -- you mean DNA, fibers, ballistics, what?

HILL: Oh, we can`t disclose that. We`ve not disclosed that yet. Of course, as you understand, it`s a crucial piece of evidence yet, not having that much, that we need to hold onto for now.

GRACE: Are they all shootings, Sergeant?

HILL: The homicides have been shootings.

GRACE: The perpetrator in the rapes -- was a weapon brandished?

HILL: I can`t tell you that definitively for all the cases, but in many cases, that`s true. Armed robberies, a weapon was branded, and that`s -- there`s been a whole series of those which we believe are connected, and the same type of MO. And that`s really the thing that brought us to put these together initially.

GRACE: Wait. I`ve got to tell my producer. Rosie (ph), please take that picture down because I fully believe that this perpetrator is wearing a wig on certain occasions. What do you think, Sergeant? I think he is. So showing that picture with the long dreads means nothing to me.

HILL: Yes. We said that all along, that it`s likely a disguise. That`s nothing new. However, that seems to be the mode that he`s in when he`s out lurking and attacking, so we need to keep that out there so that we can get people to recognize that, if they see somebody...

GRACE: Oh, I see.

HILL: ... we want those 911 calls.

GRACE: OK, now, that`s new to me. I thought in some of the attacks, he was bald or had a shaved head.

HILL: You know, there`s been a couple of attacks where it`s been different, but generally speaking, he has been out and about wearing the clothing to kind of cover himself up. So we need to do everything we can to get those calls, so we`re not going to try and dissuade anybody...


HILL: ... by giving a specific description.

GRACE: Sergeant, I understand that you are connecting a lot of the shootings with the murders. One of the questions I had for you tonight was, Are you compiling evidence from surrounding jurisdictions? Remember the Green River killer? He crossed multi-jurisdictional lines, and I still to this date don`t know how many people that guy killed.

GRACE: Well, Nancy, now we`re moving over to the other series of shootings?

HILL: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Yes, we do have cases from other jurisdictions. We have been doing that. Probably tomorrow, we`re going to release -- kind of release a new list that kind of changes the list of shootings we`ve been investigating. We`re going to reduce the number that were attributed to the person or persons that may be shooting people and dogs, and we`re going to take that new list of suspected shootings and we`re kind of going to adjust it a little bit. We`re going to include one homicide that occurred in another jurisdiction on that list.

GRACE: With us is Sergeant Andy Hill with the Phoenix Police Department. Now there is no doubt about it, there is a serial killer stalking the people of Phoenix, and there is quite a list of crimes being compiled -- multiple shootings of people. Many of them live, many of them don`t. Even animals have fallen victim, we believe, to the same killer.

Now, I`ve got to go to our criminal profiler, Pat Brown. Pat, you and I know that with serial killers very often, in younger stages of their life, they torture animals. But at this juncture, an adult serial killer still targeting animals, as well as humans? That is very unusual.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I don`t know how adult this guy is. My feeling is he`s probably more of a teenager. How young a teenager, I don`t know, but more of a teen or early 20s.


BROWN: Well, because exactly like you say. Most of the time, you start with something that`s simpler. Shooting of animals is kind of a teenage kid thing. If you haven`t moved on to the real target, something that will really enrage society to let you know and where the police are going to come after you. So you`re practicing with something smaller. And then when you get successful and get that under your belt, you say, Hey, wait a minute, now I`m ready to move on, I want something more exciting. And this guy has.

And I want to point something out about why there`s so many. You know, when you`re an up-close killer like the "Baseline rapist," it takes a lot of energy to go after the person, attack them hands on and shoot them, you know, right in front of them, and you got to get away. A guy in a car -- I mean, how easy is that, to drive around hour after hour and look for an empty street and shoot somebody? So that`s why it`s so scary, because he can kill so many people.

GRACE: You know what`s interesting? To Sergeant Andy Hill. This MO reminds me of Coral Eugene Watts. Have you ever read about him? He`s one of the most prolific serial killers in the country, from Texas to Michigan, many states in between. He would drive around. And I think your guy is driving around -- there`s Coral Eugene Watson, an earlier shot. He changed a lot over the years. So I think your guy is driving around, targeting people.

Tell me the MO, Sergeant. He doesn`t attack people in the home. He attacks them outside and forces them into a car? How does it work?

HILL: OK, we`re back talking to what`s dubbed the "baseline rapist," or serial killer that we`re calling...


HILL: This person is lurking. He`s hanging around outside. We have not seen him or anyone has not seen him with a vehicle. He is approaching people, sometimes trying to initiate some minor conversation or seeming to have some kind of an interaction before he goes ahead and strikes, which is why we are encouraging people to understand the importance of not having a confrontation but immediately trying to get to a safe area and call 911 for suspicious activity. That`s a critical part of the process for the community to empower themselves to try to help us.

GRACE: So he walks up to them on foot. Where are they typically, Sergeant? Are they coming out of their home? Are they in a business area? Where are they, the victims?

HILL: It`s been a variety. It began with several people, two men and a woman, that were hanging around outside by a bus stop. It went over to two women that were walking by a park. Then it became an armed robbery that turned into a carjacking. And a crime after that, where he made them drive to another location, and then, of course, those types of things escalated to the abductions and homicides.

GRACE: I see. So he can use their car. So when he abducts them, does he typically use their vehicle or his own?

HILL: Theirs.

GRACE: Always uses their vehicle. Interesting. And he`s seeing his victims, Sergeant, in public places, like at a park, at a bus stop. Is that typical throughout all of the attacks?

HILL: Absolutely. Our most recent case, there was a woman by herself at a car wash about 9:30 at night, and he went and picked his time, had some brief interaction, and then he, with a brazen attack, abducted her in her vehicle.

GRACE: When you say a brief interaction, are you saying like, Hey, can you give me directions? Hey, what time is it? Hey, can you give me a ride? Is that what you`re talking about?

HILL: You know, we can only surmise what we`re going to talk about now from the victims that have survived the other attacks, and that had to do with some -- either walking by them periodically or some brief conversation, and then sometimes, it was more aggravated conversation. But whatever it was, there was some kind of a precipitating event before the attacks.

GRACE: OK. So this guy is 20 to 24 years old, 5-feet-6 to 6 feet -- that`s a pretty big range -- 140 to 200 pounds. OK. That`s really not helping. Usually wearing a long-sleeved shirt, khaki pants, sometimes shaved head. Later incidents, could have been wearing a wig that Rosie in the control room is showing. There`s the tip line.

Let`s go to the lines, Rosie. Let`s go to Tim in Georgia. Hi, Tim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. From one Mercer graduate to another.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I`d like to know if all the victims have been female or if some have been male.

GRACE: One of my first questions. I`ll throw that to you, Sergeant. Go ahead.

HILL: A variety. We had two females with a male. Then we had a mother and daughter. We`ve had two females together. We`ve had a male and female together that were murdered. And the rest have been mostly females by themselves.

GRACE: And you know, Tim brings up a very, very good point. Very typically, you can look -- and Pat, tell me if I`m right or wrong on this - - at the victims, that serial killers pick.

Let`s take a look at a few notorious ones, John Wayne Gacy, AKA the "killer clown," about 33 young men and boys, always boys, stayed within his own race. Jeff Dahmer, 17 men killed, typically targeted African-American men. Ted Bundy, always, always young white females. He later confessed to 30 murders, Ted Bundy. Charles Manson -- he is responsible for the conspiracy to commit murder, 11 of them. Nice shot. Thanks, Rosie. That`s before he had the swastika tattooed on his forehead. Then there`s David Berkowitz, AKA "Son of Sam," six people. Now, there`s one, in response to Tim`s question, that killed men and women, stayed within his race. We know of six people dead, seven others wounded.

Wayne Williams, suspected of killing 20 young boys and men in the city of Atlanta, stayed within his race, as well. He got two life terms in 1982. BTK, Dennis Rader, 10 counts of murder, always white females, sentenced to 10 life sentences. Gary Ridgway, "Green River killer," 48 women, often preyed on very young girls and prostitutes. Of course, DeSalvo, the "Boston Strangler," 13 people. Coral Eugene Watts, now suspected as the most prolific, killed up to 80 people, currently behind bars.

And about him, Sergeant Hill, he would troll around the city. He didn`t always commit a sex attack. He would find someone he wanted to kill, stab them or shoot them, and be about on his business. Is this guy focusing towards sex attacks, Sergeant Hill?

HILL: We believe that there probably is some sexual motivation involved, but as you well know, in terms of sexual assault or rape cases, that can come from a variety of reasons. We`re certain that he is most definitely a very brazen predator, which is why we really need the help of the public here. You know, this, these incidents have been going on for 11 months. All the other serial killer that you named, most of them went on for a much longer period of time. We hope to end this much sooner.

GRACE: What I`m not getting -- or I think I am getting it, but you`re not telling me -- you`re connecting this guy to shootings of animals. You`ve got to be basing this on ballistics. I mean, who in their right mind...


HILL: Nancy, I have to stop you there.

GRACE: ... to the shooting of a person?

HILL: We`re kind of confusing these two series of cases there. We`re still talking about the "Baseline killer"...

GRACE: Right.

HILL: ... but the other crimes -- these crimes of the "Baseline killer" have nothing to do with animals and people.

GRACE: I get it. I get it. Could you explain that to the viewers, as well? You`ve got two shooters.

HILL: All right. We`re talking about the "Baseline killer," all of the victims have been humans and they are of all races and genders, some male, some female, and involve sexual assault, kidnapping and robbery and homicide all within the city of Phoenix, except we`re looking at one more case now outside of Phoenix.

The other series of shootings is an unknown suspect with no description, random victims, from a vehicle, and we have nothing at all to indicate who the suspect may be at this time, other than the fact that we have this complete series of shootings in other jurisdictions, as well as the city Phoenix. And we are definitely in most need of help from people with information on that vehicle, as well as that suspect, to help catch that possible shooter or multiple shooters in that case.

GRACE: Sergeant, I`m sure that you`ve had a profiler already tell you, on the second shooter, to be looking at a younger to middle-aged white male, probably lives at home with his mommy. You`ve been looking for them?

HILL: We have had profilers. And the only thing, Nancy, we`re going to stay away from that for right now because we need calls. And if anything turns out not to be the case -- and you know, profilers aren`t always 100 percent accurate, although...

GRACE: Did you hear that, Pat Brown?

HILL: ... they can be very accurate.

BROWN: He`s absolutely correct, and I`m totally with him.

GRACE: We`re going to have smackdown by Pat Brown.

BROWN: No. I said he`s right.

GRACE: Sergeant Andy Hill, don`t move an inch. Charlotte in Ohio, we`ll be right back with you.

Quickly, Rosie, let`s go to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." A Duke University lacrosse player, already facing rape charges of a student to a stripper, has been found guilty of simple assault and in another case, 19- year-old Collin Finnerty convicted for beating a D.C.-area man after allegedly calling the guy gay and a string of derogatory slurs.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By moonlight, the latest serial shooter cruises Phoenix`s major streets, from the east side to the west side, taking aim at pedestrians, bicyclists and people just standing around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are random victims. These victims are not targeted by race or gender or sex or age.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s really scary. (INAUDIBLE) you know, that some crazy guy is out there shooting people just randomly, you know?


GRACE: No way to predict where the Phoenix shooter will strike next. He is definitely stalking this desert town. So far, 34 shootings, 4 dead. What the hay is going on in Phoenix?

Let`s go to the lines, Rosie. Charlotte in Ohio. Hi, Charlotte.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I want to keep this brief. What puzzles me about this Phoenix problem...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... in seven rapes, don`t they have any DNA?

GRACE: I tried to corner Sergeant Andy Hill on that, and I think the answer is yes, but he`s not saying. What about it, Sergeant? Let me give it one more crack.

HILL: Well, you already said it, Nancy. I appreciate you understanding that.

GRACE: Let`s go to Dorothy in Alabama. Hi, Dorothy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Enjoy your program.

GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know if, when we catch this guy or the police catch this man, are we going to slap him on the wrist, or are we going to have to just support him the rest of his life, or can we kill him?

GRACE: How many times have I pondered the same question? Sergeant Andy Hill, do we have a death penalty in Arizona? Yes.

HILL: Yes, we do.

GRACE: Of course you do. And your mode of DP?

HILL: I`m sorry? Repeat that?

GRACE: Mode, lethal injection...

HILL: Yes. Lethal injection.

GRACE: You know, to you, Clark. What is the crime rate typically in Phoenix? I didn`t think they had a very high crime rate.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, Nancy, that`s changing. Here`s what we have for the first five months of 2006.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) it`s changing because of this one guy. He`s a crime wave. But in general, what`s the crime rate?

GOLDBAND: Well, it`s also on the rise, Nancy. We have some info here. Take a look at this, 2005, 99 homicides. Well, now there`s 103 in 2006. Not a huge increase but an increase.

GRACE: Right here, you`ve got four dead, this one guy. Did you hear that, Sergeant? This one guy has upped your homicide rate, four murders.

HILL: I think I have a more updated review of that, at this point. We`re running about 120 to 130. So we`re about 10 percent above last year right now at this mid-point of this year.

GRACE: OK, what else?

GOLDBAND: (INAUDIBLE) here, Nancy. Let`s talk about sexual assaults -- 331, first five months of 2005. Take a look at this number right here, 627. That`s more than twice as many sexual assaults as we saw this same time last year.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can do you to be safe? Well, try to avoid those areas. But be cautious. If you see something suspicious, call 911. You know, that`s the thing. We`re convinced that somebody out there has seen something and has information that can help us. And the other thing is that somebody out there also probably knows who the suspect or suspects may be.


GRACE: And very often, you can see something that you don`t realize is significant until you look back on it.

Breaking news out of Phoenix. Now the "Baseline" serial rapist, as he is called, has been brought to the forefront. And developing news tonight, one shooter, we now believe, is responsible for up to 34 shootings in the Phoenix area. Four people are dead.

I want to go back to our Sergeant Andy Hill with the Phoenix Police Department. Sergeant, do you believe that these victims are random? Do you think this guy is just out and about and then he just picks somebody, or are they targeted?

HILL: Well, to the extent, Nancy, that he is planning or premeditating who he`s going to shoot, it`s not that way. We believe it is random. However, as I think we`ve discussed a little bit, that this person is driving around in a vehicle and has the opportunity to get an isolated victim, which all of these victims are. So at this point, with all these shootings that have occurred over the last year, we have no suspect description and no witness information, apart from the victims.

GRACE: And he keeps being referred to, Sergeant, as a sniper shooter. Why? How far away from his victim is he?

HILL: You know, that`s something, again, Nancy, we`re holding onto. And as your caller asked earlier, why or what do we have? One of the reasons we`re doing this, of course, is, as your other caller mentioned, they want to see the maximum punishment and a successful prosecution. And that`s why the limited evidence that we have and information we`re holding onto. However, by MO, we know that this suspect is randomly out there and is shooting these victims.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of all of these three series, the thing about them all is that all the victims have been random. They are people that are alone, walking by themselves, standing, riding a bicycle, pushing a bicycle in the late hours of the night, between 10:00 at night and 3:00 in the morning.

We believe that the suspect or suspects who may be involved in these shootings are driving in a car and shooting the victims from the vehicle.


GRACE: Nine murders, 40 shootings, serial sex assault, a real chill in the desert town of Arizona. Welcome back.

Straight back out to our reporter joining us tonight, Jayme West with 620 KTAR, what is the climate there amongst the population? How are they taking, for instance, the press conference tonight?

WEST: Well, first of all, it`s hard to believe, unless it`s happening on your street or near your place of work, that it`s even happening here at all, because if you take a look at the numbers, just these two predators combined responsible for 53 crimes, violent crimes, nine people dead, five dogs and three horses?

Those are unbelievable numbers, if you combine those two cases. And I know that we have been hearing a lot more about self-defense classes for women coming up this week. There`ve been a lot of announcements about that. We`ve spoken to several women who have bought new remote starts for their cars or new vehicles altogether in response to these crime waves just so they feel a little more secure.

GRACE: Out to Pat Brown, let`s talk about characteristics or traits of serial killers.

BROWN: Well, the kind we`ve got in this particular instance, we have two different types. The baseline rapist is more of your anger retaliatory guy. He likes to get in, hands-on, close up.

And, by the way, it`s interesting he strikes before midnight. So I`d be looking for a guy who has some place to be somewhere around 11:00 or midnight, maybe a security job or back to a halfway house. But he`s a very local guy who`s on foot or...

GRACE: Or, like BTK, Pat, back home to your wife and children.

BROWN: I don`t think so. I think -- I don`t think that`s what we`ve got here. I really don`t.

GRACE: I don`t either.

BROWN: I think we`ve got too much of a low-life guy, but I think he`s known and probably been in that criminal justice system for a little bit of a time.

The other guy, I think I`d say is young. I think he`s more of a teenaged type, driving around. He`s got all hours of the night. He`s jut out there having a wild, old time.

And he likes to do things (INAUDIBLE) he may have been inspired by our D.C. snipers, because look at all the attention they got and how long they kept it up. And this guy is not striking quite as often, so we`ll look how long he`s been able to keep going.

GRACE: To defense attorney Randy Zelin, though, all the speculation, all these studies -- there is one of the D.C. snipers, speaking of them -- all of the profilers said it was a middle-aged, angry, white male who had been in the military. They could not have been more incorrect.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s exactly why Sergeant Hill said that they are tending to stay away from that. But, of course, in looking from Pat Brown`s view of the world, it`s important to try to narrow down the landscape of a potential suspect.

And then you bring in the help of the public and you get out the potential evidence, and maybe somebody says, "Hey, wait a minute. I recognize that wig. That small caliber gun? A buddy of mine has a gun just like that."

So while on the one hand I agree with Sergeant Hill, I think, at the same time, it`s important to let the public know the scope of the evidence that`s out there so you can garner their forces to help bring this guy in or bring this girl in.

GRACE: To Greg -- well, OK, we`ve got an identification on one guy. We know it`s a guy. And let`s just get real. I don`t know why you even said that about a woman, Randy, because other than Aileen Wuornos, you really don`t have that many female serial killers.

ZELIN: But the problem is, we don`t know, and I think the police have said this. There could be more than one person working with one, or two, or three of the suspects.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. But that`s not what they said, Jayme West. Actually, you know what, Randy? Earlier, they did say that they thought that there was more than the one shooter in addition to the baseline rapist.

But tonight, in breaking news, in the press conference, they announced they believe all of the shootings -- well up around 40 -- one person.

I want to go to Greg Skordas, veteran defense attorney, the reality is that everyday people can help. They are seeing, they are knowing something, and they don`t realize the significance.

GREG SKORDAS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that`s why the police department -- and I actually think the Phoenix police department is doing a very good job of putting this out in the public as much as they can, talking to the media, having this press conference, talking on your show tonight.

Somebody in the public has seen something and is aware of something. And exactly like you said, they`re not even aware that what they saw was a precursor to a rape or a homicide, absolutely.

GRACE: Significant. For instance, the neighbors of Jeff Dahmer and Ted Bundy had no idea what was going on. But yet, in retrospect, many of them were actually called at witnesses at trials.

Let`s go to Judy in Louisiana. Hi, Judy.

CALLER: Hi. Is there any common thread, any common M.O. for these crimes or these killers?

GRACE: Yes, there are. I was trying to get that out of the sergeant earlier. He wouldn`t give up very much, Sergeant Andy Hill with Phoenix police, but we do know this: The victims are typically outside at the time their targeted, like at a park, at a bus stop, out and about.

This guy approaches them always on foot, Judy, strikes up a conversation with them, and it goes from there. That much we know. He`s typically bald or shaved head; sometimes he wears a wig.

Speaking of -- oh, yes, and he said often sexual motivation or psychosexual motivation. What`s the difference, Caryn Stark?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, sexual motivation is just somebody who keeps reliving the event and they need that sexual gratification. And the psycho part is that someone who`s much more random and just needs the psychological thrill of killing somebody, which this guy is all over the place and seems to like to experiment with different ways of death, which is not uncommon for a serial killer.

GRACE: What do you think about the possibility, Caryn Stark, of a copycat criminal?

STARK: Well, that seems highly likely, especially when they thought there were three, but somebody else who`s shooting out there, if someone`s killing and they know they`re killing, then they want to take advantage of the fact that everyone`s looking for this one person. Maybe they could hide behind that and be a part of it.

So there`s always the possibility of a copycat going on.

GRACE: I guarantee you they`ve got DNA on the rapes and they just haven`t been able to match it up to somebody and ballistics on all the shootings. Let`s go to Helen in Florida.

Hi, Helen.

CALLER: Hi. Nancy, do they know if the shootings are happening in the daytime or in the evening?

GRACE: I think they`re happening in the evening. What about it, Jayme West?

WEST: The serial shooter crimes are happening between 10:00 p.m., 11:00 p.m., and about 3:00 in the morning.

GRACE: And the rapes?

WEST: The rapes, those are typically happening at night, as well.


To Clark, what else can you tell us about traits of a serial killer?

GOLDBAND: Here`s...

GRACE: It`s amazing that, in our country, in the U.S., we have so many serial killers, and they travel from state to state.

GOLDBAND: Right. And time and time again, you see these same traits. It`s almost like clockwork, very strange.

Here, stranger to the victim, usually the same race. Think John Wayne Gacy. He was white. Most of the victims were white. Also, think about Wayne Williams, African-American. His victims African-American.

Also, victims often robbed, some raped, may appear normal between crimes. Think about, like you said, with Jeffrey Dahmer and the BTK killer. Certainly their neighbors had no idea.

And often keeps things from the crime scene. That`s a little creepy.

If we could advance to the next screen, we`ll take a look at here some of the types of serial killers. There`s thrill-seekers. They don`t go to a theme park; they kill someone.

Mission-oriented feel like they have to take the creeps out of society and handle it themselves.

And last but not least, power and control. Who knows what we see here?

GRACE: And, Caryn Stark, where would you peg this guy?

STARK: Well, this guy, because he`s all over the place, Nancy, I think he`s a combination of somebody who`s a sexual -- clearly someone who would take the mementos home, but also trying to experiment and be a thrill-seeker. So he`s somebody who you can`t really define that clearly.

GRACE: To forensic pathologist Dr. Daniel Spitz, OK, we`ve got almost 40 shootings, Dr. Spitz. Police convinced that many committed by one person. How are they determining this?

DANIEL SPITZ, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the random nature of these crimes is going to be very difficult for them to deal with, but one way you can do it with shootings is by using ballistics evidence, and that`s by looking at the bullet, if you are able to get the bullet, and then comparing them using microscopy, the microscope, to other bullets that have been recovered from similar crime scenes.

So that`s really the only thing you have in shooting deaths, whereas the baseline killer is going to be leaving more intimate-type evidence, like DNA and fibers and hairs and that kind of thing.

So I think it`s going to be very difficult to solve these crimes, because they`re random, but probably easier to solve the baseline killer than it is for the Phoenix police to solve the Phoenix shooter, because of the nature of the evidence.

GRACE: And very quickly, Jayme, the baseline rapist is killing victims, as well. What`s the M.O. of the murderer? Is it shooting?

WEST: As far as we know, they are shootings. There have been five so far, both male and female victims.


And to Leslie Snadowsky, Leslie, you`re an investigative reporter. What is your take on this? What more can you tell us, Leslie?

LESLIE SNADOWSKY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "NEW YORK POST": Well, I think it was a really amazing find today with them actually saying that the two series of shootings could be combined, the work of one serial shooter and killer. I think that`s going to be major for their investigation.

But I think it`s also very important to say that this baseline rapist is definitely someone else, because he actually attacked also in the daytime, too, which is something that is not in the M.O. of that serial shooter.




MARK LUNSFORD, DAUGHTER JESSICA ABDUCTED AND MURDERED: This trial and everything, this is for Jesse. It`s not for me. It`s not for my family. It`s justice for Jesse.

Let the prosecutors and the judges and the defense attorney, let them fight that fight, but let`s stay focused on our fight.


GRACE: That was Jesse`s father, Mark Lunsford, who was with us last night on day one of jury selection. I spoke to him this afternoon in tears with the way things are going in court, just reliving the death of his little girl, 9-year-old Jesse Lunsford, over and over.

Out to Newsradio 970`s Eben Brown. Eben, what happened in court today?

EBEN BROWN, NEWSRADIO 970 WFLA: Today they went through a bunch of more perspective jurors. They whittled out -- I thin they interviewed 103, and they took 41 of them to move onto the next round, dismissing everybody else. I think they`re trying to get about 60 people. Then they`re going to whittle that 60 -- that group of 60 down to about 16, and then finally pick the 12 people that will sit on this jury.

GRACE: Take a listen to what John Evander Couey said in his confession, a confession that will remain off the record. The jury will never hear it. Roll it, Rosie, please.


DETECTIVE: Where do you go?


DETECTIVE: Into your bedroom?

COUEY: Yes, sir, through that ladder you all have.

DETECTIVE: Through your bedroom window?

COUEY: Yes, sir.

DETECTIVE: What happens next?

COUEY: Then I sexually assaulted her.

She`s a very polite girl. She`s very, very polite. I mean, I wonder why I done some stupid stuff like that for in the first place.

I was going to let her go. I got scared, and I didn`t let her go. I should have let her go and I didn`t.

DETECTIVE: What happened?

COUEY: I got scared. I mean, because you all, and everybody showed up. And I just didn`t know and panicked. And I (INAUDIBLE) The first time they came around, if they would have came in, they would have caught her in my closet. They didn`t search. They said they searched the house, but they didn`t search the house the first time.

DETECTIVE: Did she know that we were out there looking for her?

COUEY: Yes, she knew. I told her you all were -- you know, I told her you all -- I said they`re out looking for you and she seen it on TV, too.

DETECTIVE: What happened next?

COUEY: That`s just -- I went out there one night and dug a hole, and put her in it, buried her. I pushed -- I put her in a plastic bag, plastic baggies.

DETECTIVE: Was she dead already?

COUEY: No, she was still alive. I buried her alive. Like, it`s stupid, but she suffered.

DETECTIVE: Did you have sex with her?

COUEY: Yes, I had intercourse with her.

DETECTIVE: (bleep) sex?


DETECTIVE: Did you put your (bleep) inside her (bleep)?

COUEY: Yes, sir, yes.

DETECTIVE: What did she -- how did she get her clothes off?

COUEY: I told her to take them off.

DETECTIVE: You told her to take -- she took them off?

COUEY: Yes, she tried to put them back on (INAUDIBLE) leave them off.


COUEY: She put them back on. I just -- you know, I had intercourse with her.


GRACE: This jury will never hear the confession by John Evander Couey because detectives, upon Couey requesting an attorney, continued questioning him.

Two statements will come in, however, one of them saying, "I didn`t mean to kill her." And what I don`t understand, to you, Randy Zelin is how, when you bury a child alive, when you tie their hands together with stereo cord, you put them in a garbage bag, which has its own Freudian meaning in itself, and then bury her in the dirt, how can you not mean to kill her?

ZELIN: Well, Nancy, first of all, we`re assuming that what he said -- he`s being truthful, he even understood what he was saying, he even meant to say it.

The reality is, the confession is going to establish that he killed her. Then, of course, it`s going to be the other evidence that will either establish that it was premeditated or he panicked.

GRACE: Well, the confession is not going to establish anything at this juncture because it`s been ruled out of evidence. The jury will never hear it

ZELIN: Only part of it. Parts of his admissions, parts of his confession, the judge ruled, because...

GRACE: No. The statements that are coming in are statements, Randy - -you`re right. Part of what he said, but not in his confession. The confession is out.

ZELIN: There was subsequent admissions where it does establish that he killed her.

GRACE: Right. Where he said, yes, to the jailer, "I didn`t mean to kill her."

ZELIN: That`s correct.

GRACE: Right, exactly. But his confession, in its entirety, even that before he asked for a lawyer, has been ruled out.

ZELIN: Right to counsel violation.

GRACE: Yes, exactly.

Rosie, let me know when you have the rest of that, more of that confession ready to show the viewers.

Another question I`ve got going on is simple Trial 101 in this case. A lot of people don`t get the kidnap, because it was just across the street, in essence.

Asportation is part of a kidnap charge. Movement in a kidnap can only be an inch. There`s not a required distance that you kidnap someone; it can be from the outside of a mobile home to the inside. That`s called asportation, and that`s what we have here, right, Greg Skordas?

SKORDAS: In fact, it goes even further than that. You can kidnap someone in their own home or car, if you make it so that it is impossible for them to leave. So even though he`s next door or in the mobile home across the street or something like that, if she can`t go, she`s being kidnapped.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Rosie. Let`s go to Michelle in Alabama. Hi, Michelle. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love you. Since Couey confessed to the murder of Jessica, how will the justice system select a jury who hasn`t heard of such an evil, horrendous crime?

GRACE: Interesting. To Eben Brown -- Michelle, you`ve certainly been watching the news, and thank you for watching -- Eben, didn`t one of the potential jurors say they heard there was a confession that got ruled out?

E. BROWN: Many jurors or potential jurors have said that, and they are getting tossed out of the jury box there. They removed someone from the jury room today because they overheard a reporter in the courtroom talking about that confession on their cell phone. So they`re very sensitive to that, and that was one of the reasons for finding a jury from outside the original jurisdiction.

GRACE: Let`s go Carolyn in Michigan. Hi, Carolyn.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Keep up the great work.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CALLER: My question is, will Mark Lunsford be strong enough to sit through this horrific, God-awful mess with his little girl?

GRACE: No doubt in my mind. He told me that today on the telephone. He was here with us for the hour last night, and he assured me today he is not giving up.

Rosie, do you have any of that sound for me? OK. Take a listen to what John Evander Couey had to say in his confession.


COUEY: I went out there one night, and dug a hole, and put her in it. Buried her (INAUDIBLE) plastic bag, plastic baggies.

DETECTIVE: Was she dead already?

COUEY: No, she was still alive. I buried her alive.



GRACE: Tonight, her accused killer finally in a court of law, we remember the victim, the girl in the pink hat, 9-year-old Jesse Lunsford.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When God made Jesse, he made an angel.

LUNSFORD: I want my daughter home. If there`s anything that anybody knows, I mean, there`s a lot of numbers that you can call. And I just ask you to please help me find my daughter and bring her home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Couey was polygraphed today. And at the end of the polygraph, he says, "You don`t need to tell me the results. I already know what they are." John Couey admitted to abducting Jessica and subsequently taking her life.

LUNSFORD: My name is Mark. I live a simple life. I work all my life, and I raised kids all my life. And someone has taken this away from me.

My daughter was kidnapped, raped and buried alive; is this what you want happened to your children? Our children are in danger. Florida, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, it doesn`t matter where you`re from. We need tougher laws to keep our children safe.

This is not a way to remember your child; this is not how it`s meant to be.


GRACE: And now we stop to remember Army Captain Ian P. Weikel, just 31, killed, Iraq. Weikel, from Colorado Springs, leaves behind a widow and 18-month-old baby boy. The West Point grad dreamed of being an Air Force pilot since high school and won the Bronze Star. Ian P. Weikel, American hero.

Thank you to all our guests. Our biggest thank you to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until then, good night, friend.