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Nancy Grace

John Mark Karr Appears In Court

Aired August 22, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr in court today, waiving extradition, showing up in jailhouse orange after being told, N-O -- no -- to a designer suit and tie. Forget those caviar dreams and champagne wishes, Karr! This time, he is headed to a six-by-nine Colorado jail cell while Boulder`s DA tries to sort out facts from fiction, the confessed killer and school teacher facing five felony counts -- murder, sex assault, kidnap. But is Karr the real killer?

911 OPERATOR: It`s a ransom note?

PATSY RAMSEY, JONBENET`S MOTHER: It says, "SBTC, victory." Please...

911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s your name? Are you...

RAMSEY: Patsy Ramsey. I`m the mother. Oh, my God! Please!

911 OPERATOR: OK. I`m sending an officer over, OK?

RAMSEY: Please!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A demand has been made for your surrender by the state of Colorado, county of Boulder. Mr. Karr, I`m holding up a waiver of extradition. Do you see that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you read and understand the form?

KARR: Yes, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand that by signing this form, you`re agreeing to be extradited to Colorado?

KARR: Yes, your honor.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Out to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted," standing by in LA. Where is John Mark Karr right now?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, he`s getting very special room service by way of the LA County sheriff, Nancy. That`s exactly where he is. He`s back in jail here in Los Angeles.

GRACE: Out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez, who has been on the case from the very beginning. Jean, what happens next? Jean, can you hear me, dear? OK. Liz, let`s get our satellite fixed with Jean and go back to Ed Miller.

Ed, what happened in court today?

MILLER: Well, we can tell you that he appeared in court very -- it happened very quickly, only a few minutes. He wore his jailhouse jumpsuit, as you said in your open, his orange jumpsuit. He didn`t like that. He actually told his legal adviser he didn`t like two things. He didn`t like the fact that he had to wear the jumpsuit, and he didn`t like the fact that they put him on a suicide watch. He didn`t like that at all. But he did say that he is ready to be moved back to Boulder, Colorado.

Our sources tell us that it`s not going to happen for at least a day, that his family back in Georgia has asked -- they obviously want to see him, and they have asked where should they fly into, Los Angeles or Boulder? And our sources tell us that they`ve told -- they have been told -- his family has been told to come to Los Angeles. So that would probably indicate that he`ll be hanging around here for at least a day, another day.

But also, our sources at the courthouse are telling us that may give the Boulder district attorney a little more time to get her act together, to get all her ducks in a row in this case against him.

GRACE: Back to Ed Miller. Ed, it`s my understanding that they`ve got up until September 6 to come and get him. At that point, once he gets to Colorado, there are three days in order for him to have his first court appearance, and then after that, 72 hours before the Colorado district attorney must file formal charges or drop the whole thing.

MILLER: Right. Absolutely, Nancy. You know, there`s been a whole lot of speculation about why all this wacky behavior is going on with -- not just with Mr. Karr but with a lot of the investigators and the law enforcement people. We can explain part of this to you, is that this whole thing, this picking him up and arresting him, all happened before they were really ready. In other words, someone leaked the fact that there was going to be a big break in the JonBenet Ramsey case, and therefore, law enforcement had to move in and pick him up because they were afraid it was going to be made public, and therefore, the guy might run and turn into an international fugitive.

So again, some of this wacky behavior that`s going on simply is because everything happened before they were ready and they were caught with their pants down. So now they`re playing catch-up, you know, trying to get the DNA swab, trying to get the handwriting analysis and all of that stuff -- in other words, getting their case together so they are really ready when he does come back to Boulder.

GRACE: Well, speaking of it being bass-ackwards, apparently, long before Karr made statements in Thailand implicating himself in the murder of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, up to five years before, he allegedly spoke to a woman named Wendy Hutchens (ph). Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was drinking, and he opened up and he started telling me about what he was doing. And so I immediately contacted the authorities. Then we met with the FBI. They approved for me to record our conversations.

He knew JonBenet`s family because his brother worked for the -- the Ramseys, worked for Mr. Ramsey, and had worked for him for a long time. And the Ramseys were having a party. He had his family on vacation there, and his brother was there and they had a party, an open house party, a Christmas party at their house.

He went to the party with his brother, looked around. He met JonBenet, sat on the stairs with her by her kitchen, ate pineapple with her and talked to her, and you know, did funny voices and some magic tricks, you know, quarter behind the ear kind of thing, and you know, got her confidence at that time. Then he went down in the house -- because everybody was busy at the party, he went to a part of the house that really wasn`t open. but there was nobody -- there were, like, no guards, so he went down and found a storm window in a part of the house that nobody was likely to go and check every night and unlocked the storm window.

And because he`s a small, you know, petite man, he knew he could get in there. He parked in the neighborhood. He waited for them to leave, then he went in, let himself in through the storm window and got prepared, got everything ready for what he was going to do.


GRACE: Now, let me tell you about Wendy Hutchens. She`s a northern California resident. She claims that Karr came to her in 2001, just before he was arrested on those Sonoma County, California, charges of misdemeanor child pornography. We have tried and tried to reach family, to reach others regarding these statements, but that is what we have of her as of tonight. That is Wendy Hutchens, who claims contact with John Mark Karr.

Now, let`s take a look at his story. This is just emerging. We`re wondering, why is the Boulder police so interested in him? Here are a few holes in his story. Karr reportedly says he rapes JonBenet. She still had a hymen. Ramsey family party -- he says he was there and then stayed in the home. He had the wrong date of the party. The party was three days before the murder. He could not have hidden out in the home for three days.

He says he was in Colorado. His family says no, he was with them at Christmas. Karr says his brother worked for John Ramsey. John Ramsey says no, he knows neither one of them. Karr says it was all an accident. Well, the autopsy says it was no accident. She received a blow to the head and was slowly strangled to death. Karr says he wrote the ransom note. Experts say they disagree.

Let`s go straight out to Jean Casarez -- I think she can hear me now - - standing by in Boulder, Colorado. Jean, as you`ve already pointed out, this arrest warrant is under seal, but we know the Colorado district attorney`s office is going forward. They`ve got to have more. When will we find out what`s in that arrest warrant?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: That is right. And what you`re talking about is when are formal charges going to be filed? Well, the last time we spoke directly with the district attorney`s office, they said that, very likely, John Karr could be coming to Colorado before those formal charges are filed.

Now, within the hour, Court TV news has heard from the district attorney`s office, and what they told us, quote, that "the charges that the judge read in Los Angeles today were the charges listed on that probable cause arrest warrant, because that`s been a question today, not the charges filed," unquote. And they went on to tell us, Nancy, that tomorrow morning there is going to be a detailed press release to explain most of this.

GRACE: A detailed press release by the Colorado district attorney`s office?

CASAREZ: That is exactly right.

GRACE: But they won`t release the arrest warrant?

CASAREZ: That is right. It is under seal. And that was done on the 15th of August because of -- to preserve the investigation.

GRACE: OK. Let`s take a listen to more of what Wendy Hutchens has to say. She said Karr spoke to her extensively regarding the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He went in and he hid under the bed in the guest room across the hall from her bedroom and waited for them to come home. And he said he laid there and he listened to her mother read her a bedtime story and sing her a song and tuck her in and kiss her good night.

And then after the parents went to bed, he came -- got up from under the guest bed and went into her room, and she was just only barely asleep, and woke up and said her parents wanted her to come downstairs. And she remembered him from the party, and so she willingly went with him. That`s why she didn`t make any noise when they passed her brother`s room. So she willingly went with him.

I believed that he was telling me the truth.


GRACE: So according to Wendy Hutchens -- Wendy is a North Carolina -- north California resident -- she claims Karr came to her back in 2001, just before he was arrested in the Sonoma County child pornography charges, five misdemeanor counts. She said she believed him, but does his story jibe with what really happened?

To Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Does it?

MILLER: Well, there`s certainly holes, as you pointed out, in the story. But again, some of these holes can be explained. For example, the accidental -- that her death was an accident. In his mind, he may believe, as the coroner told me, that it was an accident -- in other words, that they were playing some sort of game with a rope and that the rope simply got too tight and he accidentally strangled her, and then to cover it up, he bashed her on the head. So that`s one hole that can definitely be explained.

Some of these dates that he may be confused about, that can be explained, as well. I think one of the big questions is, his family claims that he was with them on Christmas, but there`s no photographic proof of that. And of course, the family can always cover for another family member. So unless you can actually, you know, put him in another city, that, of course, leaves the whole option open that he was really there in Boulder at the time.

GRACE: Out to Marc Klaas, the president of Beyondmissing. As you all know, Marc Klaas is a tireless victims` rights advocate. He became an advocate after his own daughter, Polly Klaas, was kidnapped and murdered. And right when you least expect it, it comes back to hit you in the head like a boomerang, Marc. How did you get dragged into this, and what do you think about this story Karr is telling?

MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, I don`t think much of Karr`s story. I really don`t think much of this woman up in Petaluma, either, who also claims to be Richard Allen Davis`s best friend. So what we`ve got is this unholy trio of the psychopathic killer and the death row groupie and the insane pedophile, who have somehow been given credibility. I can`t believe that any one of these individuals has said anything that`s even remotely believable in probably the last five or ten years.

And you know, to have this thing growing upon itself to this point is rather enraging because my daughter is in the middle of it and she shouldn`t be in the middle of it. This thing should have been handled very differently than it`s been handled. And I`m really upset, quite frankly, with this district attorney for allowing this thing to get so -- to have so little control, so little control that this thing became a major media event. And it seems to be built upon a house of cards and insane ravings.

GRACE: You know, Marc, what`s disturbing me is if this arrest is of the wrong guy, in my mind, technically speaking, as a trial lawyer, it could forever preclude them realistically, practically speaking, of prosecuting the right person. You can`t stand in front of a jury and claim, yes, I have the right person now, I know I didn`t last time.

KLAAS: Well, you know, and it goes beyond that. Besides the obvious holes in the story that have already been mentioned, we have to remember that pedophiles do not leave ransom notes. You would be hard pressed to find any other case where a pedophile has left a ransom note. But you would not be pressed to find another case where an innocent person, or a person who didn`t commit the crime, interjects themself into these situations so that they can, who knows, bring themselves closer to the victim or attain their 15 minutes` worth of fame. And it seems like they`re lining up to do that in this case.

GRACE: Right now, out to Dan Simon, CNN correspondent, joining us from LA with breaking news. Dan, what`s the latest?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, here`s the deal. We all saw this infamous mob scene in Thailand, where Karr made these confessionary statements. But I have to tell you, those weren`t the only statements he made. When he first landed in LAX and was in the presence of law enforcement officers, he started spouting his mouth off once again. And I want to quote exactly what he said in the presence of these people. He said, quote, "Everybody says I couldn`t know my way around the house, but I got in the house around 5:00 o`clock and I stayed there all night." He goes on to say that "they," meaning the Ramseys, "didn`t come back until 10:00 o`clock at night."

So once again, you have this guy who has these really loose lips. He`s making these statements, and comes to the United States and once again, wants to basically prove to everybody that he was involved in this murder, Nancy.

GRACE: Is there any way, Dan, that he could have obtained that information elsewhere? I mean, we know that he is communicating with Richard Davis, the killer of Polly Klaas, behind bars. We know that he is obsessed with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. We know that for a long time, he thought that he was actually e-mailing back and forth with Patsy Ramsey, and it turned out he was e-mailing local authorities posing as Patsy Ramsey. I mean, he has gleaned so much information about this case. Even his Yahoo! name, for Pete`s sake, was He`s a freak, Dan! How could he get this information?

SIMON: Well, it just goes to show you that there is a pattern of behavior here, that, once again, you know, he told this person Wendy Hutchens that he was involved, and then he -- who knows what he`s told other people. So it just goes to show you that for whatever reason, just recently, he wanted at least the world to know that he was involved.

GRACE: You know, you`re right about that, Dan.

Joining us right now, two very special guests, private investigators hired by the Ramsey family to try to get more facts. Joining us, Ollie Gray and John San Augustine (ph). Sirs, thank you for being with us. To Ollie Gray. You know the facts very intimately. How could this guy have gotten a hold of the fact that the Ramseys came in that night around 10:00 o`clock?

OLLIE GRAY, FORMER PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR HIRED BY RAMSEYS: Well, Nancy, I think a lot of that timeframe stuff has already been out in various documentaries and other things. I don`t think that`s anything new.

GRACE: And to you, John San Augustine. Agree or disagree?

JOHN SAN AGUSTIN, FORMER PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR HIRED BY THE RAMSEYS: That`s true. There`s been a lot of publicity on this case. I think if you were to Google John Ramsey on the Internet, you`d find a lot of hits to include timelines.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Karr is -- has been portrayed by the media as of late as being mentally unstable, attention-seeking, unwell (ph). He is anxious to have an opportunity to address the allegations against him, to be portrayed in a more accurate and more complete way.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. John Karr facing charges in Colorado. We expect him to be leaving to go there very soon. As you know, the school teacher now suspected in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, the 6- year-old beauty queen, murdered in her own home Christmas 1996. Today, Karr in court, waiving extradition.

To Dan Simon, CNN correspondent, who was there in court today. We later heard his -- they claim they`re not his defense attorneys, but two defense attorneys who met with him, saying he was articulate, he was coherent, he was bright. It sounded like they were candidates on "The Bachelor," the way they described this guy. So what did you see in court?

SIMON: Well, one other thing they also said is that these confessionary statements he made in Thailand -- they said they were taken completely out of context, and they`re saying they don`t believe he made a confession, which is a bit hard to believe when you actually hear those statements, coupled with the fact that he actually said the same thing and more to officials here in Los Angeles when he first arrived.

In terms of how he looked in the courtroom, to me he seemed somber, stoic, didn`t show much emotion. He seemed to have respect for the process. He addressed the judge as "Your honor." It was basically a non- event in terms of what happened, but any time you have a big case like this, it`s always interesting to see the defendant up close, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to what his "We`re not defense attorneys" had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My overall opinion of him is that he`s a very intelligent man, that he is a different sort of person than most of us walking around on the face of the planet, and that differentness has been construed in the media as wrong or somehow unbalanced. And I don`t find that to be true at all. I found him to be very engaging, very bright, very articulate, and very, very much appropriate in his emotional response to what`s going on.


GRACE: To you, Alan Ripka, veteran defense attorney. Engaging, bright, intelligent, articulate -- again, it sounds like she`s a contestant on "The Bachelor." Plus, she`s just ruined any chance this guy ever had of an insanity plea. Explain.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I`m completely surprised at that. I mean, here`s a defense attorney who`s going to defend this guy, and he stood up in television sets and admitted to this entire crime, of which he has no excuse for, unless he has problems or he`s sick or insane, which according to her, he`s not. So I was shocked by what happened, Nancy.



KARR: I love JonBenet, and she died accidentally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man?



GRACE: This guy just can`t seem to stop yakking. He got pretty quiet in court today, extradition hearing, which he waived. That means the road is paved for him to go to Colorado, facing five charges, including murder one, felony murder, kidnapping, two counts, and sex with a minor.

Back to Dan Simon. Very quickly, standing by in LA. Dan, let me get it straight. Gazing out the window, he starts talking where everybody can hear him, saying -- I was taking notes -- "Everybody says I couldn`t know my way around the house, but I got in around 5:00 o`clock and stayed there all night. And they," the Ramseys, "did not get back in until 10:00 PM." Right?

SIMON: Yes. That`s exactly what he said. And he said that in front of U.S. law enforcement. This is a guy who apparently has loose lips, and he is not afraid to talk about his alleged involvement in this case. It`s quite astounding, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Karole in Utah. Hi, Karole.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If John Mark Karr is found to be only a thrill seeker and not the murderer, will he be liable for money spent for his extradition, et cetera?

GRACE: I can only pray! What about it, Alex Sanchez? He`s looking at a big. fat false report and probably a judgment by a court for all this money.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He should be. But is it really worth it, at this point? How much is Mr. Karr worth? I mean, why not concentrate your efforts on going after the real killer...

GRACE: OK, you know what?

SANCHEZ: ... instead of trying to sue him...

GRACE: That was a cross-examination question...

SANCHEZ: ... in a court of law.

GRACE: ... a "Yes, no." Will he have to pay? Will he face charges?

SANCHEZ: I would say that he will probably not have to pay, and I don`t think he`ll have to face any charges at all because he didn`t file some phony police report...

GRACE: Alan Ripka, agree or disagree?

SANCHEZ: He did not file a police report inside the United States...


SANCHEZ: ... alleging this had occurred. The police came to him in Thailand.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Mark Karr`s sensational confession last week appeared to wrap up one of America`s most enduring murder mysteries.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The itinerant school teacher who seemed so willing to confess all last week...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... has suddenly clammed up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But at 40,000 feet, it was a different story. Karr sat in business class.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A ticket that normally costs around $2,500. As we said, he dined in style. That would be champagne, fried king prawns...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Mark Karr is back on U.S. soil this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s going before a judge now in Los Angeles for an extradition hearing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Mark Karr for the first time, less than an hour ago, hearing what the charges are against him.


GRACE: Oh, yes, he`s so shy; he`s so quiet; he hates all the attention. That`s why he keeps talking and talking and talking. But are words enough for a conviction? Well, here`s another woman he talked to, a Northern California resident that says she talked to him back in 2001, and he confessed to her way back when, five years ago. Take a listen.


KARR: JonBenet, God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, the doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.


GRACE: CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of that tape. When we spoke to Hutchens` rep asking to interview her and for copies of audiotapes and e-mails, the rep indicated she wanted to be paid. CNN declined.

Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was drinking, and he opened up and he started telling me about what he was doing. And so I immediately contacted the authorities. Then we met with the FBI. They approved for me to record our conversations.

He knew JonBenet`s family because his brother worked for the Ramseys, worked for Mr. Ramsey, and had worked for him for a long time. And the Ramseys were having a party. He had his family on vacation there, and his brother was there. And they had a party, an open house party, Christmas party at their house.


GRACE: Again, as I mentioned to you, Ms. Hutchens, Wendy Hutchens, a Northern California resident, she claims Karr came to her, 2001, before he was arrested on those California child pornography charges, and spoke to her. That was the recorded voice of Karr, according to her.

Let`s go out to Ollie Gray and John San Agustin, private investigators hired by the Ramseys.

To you, John, John, you have always supported an intruder theory. What do you make of Karr?

SAN AGUSTIN: You know, he may have done it, he may not have done it. The bottom line is: If he did it, there`s going to be physical evidence that ties him to that crime scene.

GRACE: Why were you so convinced an intruder did the crime?

SAN AGUSTIN: Based on the physical evidence, Ms. Grace. That`s strictly what we based it on, was on the physical evidence.

GRACE: Right, what specific evidence?

SAN AGUSTIN: Well, you have foreign DNA under her fingernails and in her panties that, back in January of 1997, we knew that none of that DNA under her fingernails and in her panties matched anybody in the Ramsey family, not John, not Patsy, not Melinda, not John Andrew, not Burke. Not one person in the Ramsey family`s DNA matched to that poor little girl`s DNA under her fingernails and in her panties.

GRACE: John, question: Media reports have stated that the underwear were not JonBenet`s correct size, that they were not actually underwear that she would have typically been wearing. Is that true?

SAN AGUSTIN: I can`t answer that. I never had a chance to see the underwear. That underwear is in the possession of the Boulder district attorney`s office, and they`re basically the ones that can answer that question.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t the parents know?

SAN AGUSTIN: Absolutely, but they don`t know what was inside -- what evidence...

GRACE: I mean about the underwear.

SAN AGUSTIN: ... was recovered as far as...

GRACE: The underwear she was wearing, wouldn`t they know whether they were hers or not? It`s my understanding they were a couple sizes too big for her.

SAN AGUSTIN: Again, I don`t know if it was a couple sizes big or I would think that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey would know their daughter`s panty size, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Well, they hired you. You were privy to all the facts that they knew. OK, forget about the underwear being the wrong size.


GRACE: Let`s talk about forced entry. What can you tell me about forced entry? Here`s a shot of the crime scene photos.

SAN AGUSTIN: We know -- yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Let`s run those, Liz. Go ahead, sir.

SAN AGUSTIN: Yes, ma`am. We know that there were two possible entry or exit points. There is a window in the basement that was open. There was a suitcase that was found right underneath that window with some broken glass on top of it. We also know that there was a butler door that was noted to be open on the main level.

GRACE: Question...

SAN AGUSTIN: Yes, ma`am?

GRACE: ... do we know that the suitcase had been moved below the window? Do we know that it didn`t normally sit there? This was a storage area.

SAN AGUSTIN: OK. We don`t know if it was moved...

GRACE: Oh, there`s a short. Hold on, John. I`m just showing the viewers a shot of that suitcase you`re talking about.

SAN AGUSTIN: OK, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: OK, go ahead, dear.

SAN AGUSTIN: No, I was just going to say that suitcase, you know, we`re to assume that, when the Boulder Police Department came to process that scene, that that is, in fact, the location of that suitcase and nobody else had an opportunity to move that suitcase.

GRACE: Were there fingerprints on the suitcase?

SAN AGUSTIN: We`re not aware of any fingerprints. We were told that there was a shoe impression left on the top of that suitcase, ma`am.

GRACE: Let`s see the outside of the window, a lot of leaves and debris undisturbed outside the window. There is a footprint in sand outside the window, looks like it`s from a tennis shoe. Let`s get to the shot of the window with the leaves. There`s another close-up of that shoe print.

SAN AGUSTIN: Yes, that`s the shoe print that`s...

GRACE: Here are the leaves, John, that we`re showing.

SAN AGUSTIN: Right, that`s actually -- you`re looking in the room where her body was ultimately found by Mr. Ramsey.

GRACE: Right.

SAN AGUSTIN: Now, that photograph right there that we`re seeing is of the window well. All we can note there is that there was a disturbance noted in that area. You can see there in the middle that there is some type of disturbance...

GRACE: You know what I noticed? You know what I noticed, John?

SAN AGUSTIN: Yes, ma`am?

GRACE: That there were no leaves and no dirt on the inside of the basement. And we see it all around the window. If the window had been used as the entry point, wouldn`t there be leaves and dirt on the inside?

SAN AGUSTIN: Quite possibly. But what we do know is that there is some popcorn packing material -- if you look off to the right there, there is some popcorn packing material.

GRACE: Yes, I see it.

SAN AGUSTIN: There was actually some popcorn packing material found in the same room where JonBenet`s body was found. Also, if you look at that unidentified footwear impression, there`s a photograph that looks like JonBenet`s bare foot next to an unidentified footwear impression. And right in the middle of that is some leaf debris. If you take a close look at that, you`ll see that.

GRACE: Joining us now, Andrew Hodges, psychiatrist and author. Dr. Hodges, thank you for being with us. You have very carefully taken a look at this book, actually written -- a look at the case and actually written a book, "A Mother Gone Bad: The Hidden Confession of JonBenet`s Killer," "Who Will Speak for JonBenet?" Do you support the intruder theory that John San Agustin does?

ANDREW HODGES, PSYCHIATRIST: Not at all, Nancy. I think this -- you know, I think the ransom note is the key to the case. That`s where I came in as a clinician, a psychiatrist with 30 years` experience. And I applied a breakthrough to the unconscious mind.

This case comes down to how the mind works. This letter is written on two levels: the conscious level and the unconscious level. This reflects an unconscious confession. In the unconscious mind, you know, police use the unconscious mind at crime scenes to hypnotize witnesses and pick up additional information...


GRACE: What does the letter tell you about the killer?

HODGES: OK. Understand that (INAUDIBLE) mind speaks in a coded language by patterning similar ideas called thought prints. I see in there a cancer code. I see in there a code of sexual molestation. I see in there a code that this was a staged crime scene. I see in there a code that JonBenet was dead before the ransom note was written.

We sent Boulder an 80-page report, 14 conclusions, that this was a female cancer victim who wrote this letter and that she was picking -- she was triggered by picking up on a sexual assault where she witnessed JonBenet being sexually assaulted, and that`s what set her off.

So all this fit the Ramseys to a T, and the ransom note is a story. If you look at the signature, you`ll see "Victory." And the "ctory" is spaced apart, suggests story. The whole thing is a hidden story of the ransom, of the crime.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I haven`t seen anything at this point to tell me that he did or tell me that he didn`t. I think he believes that he did. I think he, for whatever reason, has evidently some internal knowledge with respect to some, quote, "elements of the crime." These are things that I`m not privy to. I don`t know what kinds of things he`s told.


GRACE: Joining us now, forensic scientist who actually examined DNA in the Ramsey case way back when, Mark Stolorow. Sir, thank you for being with us. What did you learn from your examination of the DNA?

MARK STOLOROW, EXAMINED DNA IN RAMSEY CASE: We determined that there was DNA that did not match any of the family members in that particular household.

GRACE: Mark, is it -- the DNA in JonBenet`s underwear, is it a mixture of her DNA and the perp`s DNA?

STOLOROW: From what I understand, the relevant stain that is being examined or under examination presently is a blood stain which is known to have come from a male. And so the presence of biological fluids other than blood has not been substantiated.

GRACE: Mark, I`m showing the viewers now the way that an oral DNA swab is taken. It`s really simple. It looks like a long Q-Tip, and it`s simply run along the inside of the mouth. From an oral swab, it`s very easy to do, the DNA match will be made.

And out to Court TV`s Jean Casarez. That`s what they`re going to need in this case, Jean. The arrest warrant is under seal. We don`t know what Boulder, Colorado`s, got against this guy, but we know it`s enough to fly him home from Thailand and for California to hold off on prosecuting child pornography charges.

What can you tell us about the Ramsey home, Jean?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Well, the Ramsey home itself, Nancy, it`s been up for sale, and it was taken off the market last week. I called the realty company to find out a little bit about it, and of course they took it off the market when the arrest warrant came about in Thailand.

Nancy, that home is 6,866 square feet, almost 7,000 square feet, and it has five bedrooms, seven bathrooms. It is very lark large. And, Nancy, it was almost $2 million for sale.

GRACE: You know, we`ve got to have DNA to put this case together. We don`t know yet what the Boulder, Colorado, district attorney has, but we do know that there is a ransom note, a handwriting exemplar. Last night we had an expert on who is certain that John Mark Karr wrote the ransom note. Take a listen to this.


GRACE: When he got turned down by these various girls in high school, you said he was very sensitive. What was his reaction?

TERESA ALLIGOOD, KARR SIGNED HIGH SCHOOL YEARBOOK: Just the typical being sensitive and hurt. And you don`t see a lot of guys that get emotional and that sensitive regarding girls.

GRACE: You mean, like, cry?

ALLIGOOD: Well, I wouldn`t say cry, but, I mean, he was full of emotions and he was pretty upset and hurt.



KARR: JonBenet, God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, the doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful



GRACE: When he got turned down by these various girls in high school, you said he was very sensitive. What was his reaction?

TERESA ALLIGOOD, KARR SIGNED HIGH SCHOOL YEARBOOK: Just the typical being sensitive and hurt. And you don`t see a lot of guys that get emotional and that sensitive regarding girls.

GRACE: You mean, like, cry?

ALLIGOOD: Well, I wouldn`t say cry, but, I mean, he was full of emotions and he was pretty upset and hurt.


GRACE: OK. We`re pulling up that sound from the handwriting expert from last night, who is sure there is a match. You`ve got the handwriting expert. You`ve got his voice, according to Wendy Hutchens, that you just heard.

Out to Reed Hayes, a handwriting expert. Are you so convinced he wrote this note?

REED HAYES, HANDWRITING EXPERT: I am not convinced that he wrote the note at all.


HAYES: In fact -- well, number one, there`s a problem here in that my colleague seemed to be reaching these strong conclusions of identification based on improper comparison material. You know, we`re looking at...

GRACE: OK, tell me why you disagree.

HAYES: Pardon?

GRACE: Why do you think he did not write the note?

HAYES: Well, I see probably more dissimilarities than I`ve heard people say regarding similarities.

GRACE: Such as?

HAYES: Such as, well, for example, the lower case letter "e." In the ransom note, so-called ransom note, the "e" is made in what I would call a normal fashion, with an eyelid and a tail or a loop and a tail. But if you look at the writing in the yearbook, what you see is a half-circle with a second added stroke, which kind of crosses down through the letter and actually forms and makes kind of an "x" formation. And I see that over and over in the writing in the yearbook, but I don`t see that in the so-called ransom note.

Another example is the lower-case letter "r." In the ransom note, the final portion of the "r" is kind of an arch formation, but in the yearbook writing it`s actually -- the final portion of the "r" is actually a concave shape. It`s totally opposite.

GRACE: Interesting. Interesting. You know, and what you`re saying totally supports the theory that handwriting analysis is an art. And various artists disagree upon what they are seeing.

To psychotherapist Lauren Howard, do pedophiles leave notes behind? I think Marc Klaas has a valid point.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No, they don`t. They absolutely do not. That is just not -- you know, pedophilia is an act of love, believe it or not. I mean, it is a perverted...

GRACE: Or they think it is.

HOWARD: Absolutely. Listen, what is the motivation for this guy to voluntarily incriminate himself and put himself under suspicion of guilt? It would have to be because he felt incredibly guilty about a crime he committed or he felt enormous remorse. We are not seeing any of that in his affect, none of it. This not making any sense that this guy is for real.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines, Chris in California. Hi, Chris. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`m a big fan of yours.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: This guy says he did it. And why are we so quick to believe that he did not do it? We have three people, the "Washington Post," the Court TV handwriting institute, the guy you had on last night, that says, in fact, this is a match. He could have wrote this in the basement when he was hiding. The ex-wife has motive to lie. Why aren`t we talking about her motives to lie?



KARR: I loved JonBenet very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you just give us a brief statement, please?

KARR: I love JonBenet, and she died accidentally.


GRACE: The Boulder district attorney had better have a silver bullet, because right now all we have is his musings, the musings of a possible crazy person.

And it`s simple Trial 101, Alan Ripka: A confession alone is not enough to bring a case. Why? Quickly.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because we need corroborating evidence, Nancy. Anyone could say they did it at any time, so the prosecutor needs to show the jury something else to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

GRACE: And, Alex Sanchez, this isn`t just Ripka`s opinion or my opinion. This is statutory law. This is the law. You cannot proceed on a criminal case based on a confession alone. Why?

SANCHEZ: Well, you know, I disagree with that. If there`s a confession -- and as long as there`s evidence of a crime -- in other words, if there was a confession that somebody committed a murder...

GRACE: No, no, no, there`s got to be corroborating evidence.

SANCHEZ: There is. There was a murder that was committed, and he confessed to that murder. And in New York, if he confessed to that murder and there`s someone that`s dead, this man could go to jail.

GRACE: Explain, Alan.

SANCHEZ: Because you do not need -- as long as there`s...

GRACE: Alan Ripka. Alan Ripka.

SANCHEZ: ... evidence of a crime that had been committed.

GRACE: He`s over there.

RIPKA: I disagree with you. Obviously, if you get people like this who are ill or insane or sick and come up with these tales day and night and confess to crimes all over the place, where they found dead bodies, we have innocent people in jail. And it`s for that very reason.

GRACE: Guys, I`ve got one quick question for World Vision expert on child trafficking, Joe Mettimano. Joe, welcome. Why has Thailand become the hub of child sex?

JOE METTIMANO, WORLD VISION EXPERT IN CHILD TRAFFICKING: Well, I would say three reasons. One is the availability of children in the sex trade there, which stems from poverty. Secondly, these men who are traveling to commit this crime, so-called child sex tourism, can remain anonymous in a place like Thailand. They`re away from home. Who`s going to know they`re committing the crime?

And last but not least, it`s just weak law enforcement. In some countries in Southeast Asia and Latin America these guys simply can get away with it most of the time. But fortunately, now U.S. law enforcement is going after them.

GRACE: Joe, you`re absolutely correct. And in the middle of the child sex trade capital of the world, John Mark Karr. We`ll bring you the latest tomorrow night. I hope you join us.

Thank you to all of my guests. But most of all, to you, for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.