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Nancy Grace

A California woman says she taped hours of phone calls with JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr talking about his attraction to little girls at the request of the Sonoma County Police Department in 2001.

Aired August 25, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr segregated from general jail population, Boulder County jail. He`s provided with newspapers, magazines, cable TV, three hots and one cot -- you know, three hot meals and a bed -- three hots and a cot -- pretty cushy for the man who confessed to bludgeoning and strangling a little 6-year-old beauty queen to death Christmas 1996. And tonight: Karr`s guilty of another deadly sin, vanity, insisting on designer duds versus jailhouse blues. You know he`s watching himself tonight on cable, Karr due in court ASAP. But tonight, revealed, the real John Mark Karr in his own words.

JOHN MARK KARR, JONBENET RAMSEY MURDER SUSPECT: What it amounts to is I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean, you know? Instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.


Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Let`s go straight out to Ed Lavandera for the very latest. Ed, where is he now? What`s happening?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he`s here in the Boulder County jail, just spent his first night there, where he`s been spending it in solitary confinement.

We know that before he went to bed Thursday night, he did meet with a representative of the Colorado Public Defenders office for three hours, almost until about midnight local time last night. When that attorney emerged from the jail last night, he did say that he had been asked by John Karr to be represented by the Colorado Public Defenders office.

I mention that because we`ve heard a lot over the last couple of days two attorneys in California who say they represent him, as well. So it seems like there`s kind of a collection of attorneys going on right now.

GRACE: So Ed Lavandera, what can you tell me about that particular jail facility? Is he in isolation right now?

LAVANDERA: That`s my understanding. For his own safety, the sheriff says, he`s been in solitary confinement. It`s separate, in a different pod, if you will, the way the sheriff described it, away from where the general population is.

GRACE: Ed Lavandera, you`re talking about various attorneys who claim that they`re representing him. We know now of at least three dozen lawyers, 36 attorneys, who have volunteered to represent him pro bono, for free, for the publicity. So do you believe those attorneys will be there beside him in court?

LAVANDERA: I can only -- 36, I guess...

GRACE: No, no. The ones there in Boulder.

LAVANDERA: Oh. I think it`s still kind of early on. I mean, this was someone from the Public Defenders office. It was the initial meeting with him. So I think it`s still very much up in the air. I`m not exactly sure how it`s going to play out.

GRACE: Ed Lavandera, CNN correspondent, standing by there in Boulder, Colorado. Ed, is it true that this guy has access to TV, newspapers, magazines behind bars?

LAVANDERA: I don`t know about the newspapers and magazines. I`ve heard that he can watch some TV. There was one inmate that we spoke with who came out a little while ago -- I guess he was released -- said that he could probably hear other prisoners talking to him. People could yell things at him, I guess, and talk to him that way. That`s about the best flavor that we have from inside.

GRACE: It must be killing this guy not to have on his designer duds! Is he wearing the jailhouse blues, oranges or reds?

LAVANDERA: Well, when he came in here yesterday, he was wearing what we saw him leave Thailand, the red shirt, you know, the tie. The sheriff says that he would put him in a red prison jumpsuit or jail jumpsuit, and I think after a couple of days, he gets to wear designer yellow.

GRACE: Backtrack. What was the booking process, Ed?

LAVANDERA: Oh, the booking process? He was brought in here -- he was flown to a small airport just south of Boulder. There he was met by a small caravan of Suburbans. He was placed inside one of those cars, in the middle seat...

GRACE: Hold on, Ed! Ed! Ed, I`m showing the viewers right now what you`re talking about, the mug shot of John Mark Karr. This is him, taken, it looks like, wearing his red shirt, his designer shirt he insisted upon. Go ahead, Ed. I knew you were about to get to the mug shot.

LAVANDERA: Right, right. So after they were escorted by the small caravan of Suburbans from a nearby airport, he was whisked right into the Sally Port (ph) area. We couldn`t see him get out. As soon as the cars drove right into that garage area, the doors shut down behind him. So that was the last we ever saw of him until about an hour-and-a-half after that, the mug shot of his arrival here at the Boulder County jail was released.

GRACE: So do we have any idea as to names of attorneys that have visited him?

LAVANDERA: It`s my understanding, since he got here as the sun was setting last night, there was only the one public defender, Seth Timmon (ph), who met with him last night for three hours. If others have arrived here, I haven`t seen them come through just yet.

GRACE: Is he allowed to exercise?

LAVANDERA: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Is he allowed to exercise, to work out? You know, like a spa?

LAVANDERA: Right, right, right. My understanding is there`s a little rec area. I`m not exactly sure how big it is. But I think he would have access to it at least once a day.

GRACE: And Ed, tell us what you expect to happen in court at his first appearance.

LAVANDERA: Well, his first appearance, I think, by all -- every indication we`ve gotten so far, is going to be, you know, almost anticlimactic. It`s going to be just a couple of minutes. He will be told of his rights. I`m not convinced that that`s going to be where the announcement of the charges are, although I think, you know, he`ll be told that -- what he probably already knows, is that he was arrested on the warrant for these -- for several specific charges. But that doesn`t mean those specific charges had been filed yet. They have until next Tuesday to do that before they have to ask for more time from the judge.

GRACE: And I know, Ed, you`ve probably seen the mug shot. Let`s see that one more time, Elizabeth. It looks like he`s wearing make-up.

LAVANDERA: I doubt there`s a make-up artist inside the county jail.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I doubt he needs a make-up artist. I`ve got a sneaky feeling he knows how to apply it himself. Ed Lavandera, standing by there at the Boulder County jail.

We promised you that tonight you would hear John Mark Karr in his own words, and that we will right now.


KARR: What it amounts to is, I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean. You know, instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess, at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.

Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, There`s Polly Klaas`s house, I want that because I want her -- you know, I want her -- I mean, I want her so bad.


GRACE: Joining us right now, the woman who recorded those phone calls. She alleges this is John Mark Karr. We have no reason to disbelieve her. CNN has not been able to confirm that. I want to advise you that Wendy Hutchens, the woman who taped those calls, was asked to tape calls by Sonoma County police. As you recall, 2001, John Mark Karr had child pornography charges leveled against him in Sonoma County, and these allegations and information was sent in 2001 to Boulder authorities.

Joining us tonight, a very special guest, Wendy Hutchens, Sonoma County Sheriff`s Department informant. She taped numerous conversations with John Mark Karr, many of them about the 6-year-old beauty queen, JonBenet Ramsey. Ms. Hutchens, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Are you a little stunned that all this information was sent to Boulder in 2001? Hold on! Yes, it`s 2006!

HUTCHENS: Yes. It`s been really hard to live with this for five years. Whether or not he actually killed JonBenet, knowing that this is a creepy guy out here teaching our children, it`s been so hard for me to live with it for five years, knowing he was out there.

GRACE: But did you take some comfort in the fact that you tried? You tried! I mean, what can you do, go throw yourself on the steps of the police department?

HUTCHENS: I know. I tell you, it`s been really hard. There was -- you know, especially five years ago, the Ramseys were in the news a lot, and I was, like, Over here, come over here, he`s right here, he`s right here. You know, and it`s very frustrating.

GRACE: Ms. Hutchens, how did you meet this guy, John Mark Karr?

HUTCHENS: It was just kind of a matter of timing. I had happened to decide to contact Richard Allen Davis to resolve an issue from my childhood that he happened to know about, and John Karr was actually trying to contact Davis at that same time. And Karr and I met a woman by the name of Abigail (ph), who has a death row inmates visitation Web site. And we had both contacted her, and she had connected us.

GRACE: Everybody, Richard Allen Davis is the convicted killer of the daughter of Marc Klaas, Polly Klaas, Davis behind bars right now, on death row, for that murder.

Now, question. Back to how you ended up meeting John Mark Karr. It`s my understanding you grew up in the same neighborhood as Richard Allen Davis, the same town?

HUTCHENS: Yes, we lived in La Honda (ph), California, and so he used to come over to my house with my baby-sitter when I was, like, 11, 12, 13 years old.

GRACE: Now, why did you want to get in touch with a convicted killer of a little girl?

HUTCHENS: Because my baby-sitter had died, and I thought that he had something to do with it. I know he was there the night that she died, and I had seen -- I`d been, like, across the street from what happened, and he was the only one who could tell me what actually happened that night. And it was something that I had just always wanted to know, and I finally decided to write him and ask him if he would tell me what happened that night.

GRACE: Did he tell you?

HUTCHENS: Yes, he did.

GRACE: Did he have anything to do with it?

HUTCHENS: No, he didn`t. He actually found her and called the authorities to let them know that she`d killed herself.

GRACE: Well, with Richard Allen Davis involved, I would just naturally assume that he was the killer, since we know that he killed Polly Klaas. So frankly, I don`t blame you for trying to find out on your own.


GRACE: So in trying to reach him, you somehow got hooked up with John Mark Karr, who was also trying to reach Richard Allen Davis. Why was he trying to reach Richard Allen Davis? I mean, I understand your motivation, but what about him?

HUTCHENS: Well, you know, these kind of serial offenders have a really twisted sense of logic, but in his mind, he thought if he could meet with Richard Allen Davis, that Richard Allen Davis would confess to him that he had the same feelings about Polly Klaas that John Mark Karr had about JonBenet, and that if he could get the world to understand that we should forgive Richard Allen Davis and that we should understand that he loved Polly Klaas, and this and that, he thought, you know, that he could go around and be on talk shows and get the world to think that Richard Allen Davis wasn`t such a bad guy, that that way, people wouldn`t think he was such a bad guy, either.

GRACE: And just how long did you stand in a hot shower with a cake of soap after talking to this freak on the phone?

HUTCHENS: Oh, it was really hard. I would get literally sick to my stomach after we would talk on the phone, and I would cry for hours. Detective Phil Martin (ph) and the Sonoma County sheriff`s violent crimes unit, those guys were excellent, Dave Thomas (ph) and Mark Essex (ph) and Sergeant Steve Brown (ph). You know, every day, they were, like, you know, Just hang in there, try to get more details out of him, you know, and constantly, I mean, just really keeping me going through it because that was, like, a month of talking to him on the phone.

GRACE: It`s very hard. It`s very difficult on a lot of informants to do this, to tape conversations, to be wired, to be exposed to what they are exposed to.

Let`s take a listen to a tape that this woman, Wendy Hutchens, said she taped of the confessed killer of JonBenet Ramsey, John Mark Karr.


KARR: JonBenet. God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, that doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.

What it amounts to is I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean, you know? Instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess, at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.


GRACE: Ms. Hutchens, what do you say on the phone to a grown man who says he`s got a sexual attraction to a little girl, a 6-year-old little girl?

HUTCHENS: Well, it was really hard. The FBI asked me to pretend that I was interested in molesting little girls myself or...

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven!

HUTCHENS: ... that I at least wanted to watch him do it. And that was something that I made him promise, that he wouldn`t touch a little girl without me, that I wanted to be there with him, I wanted to be there with him so that in hopes he wouldn`t do anything while we were trying to -- you know, while the sheriff`s department was trying to get -- you know, hook him up against other crimes because he talked about snatching little girls off the streets and stuff like that. So it was really hard to actually have to say that that sounded like something I`d really want to watch. It was really hard.

GRACE: Also joining us tonight, a very close friend and adviser, a confidant to Wendy Hutchens, A.J. Fardella. Mr. Fardella, thank you for being with us.

A.J. FARDELLA, CLOSE FRIEND AND ADVISER TO WENDY HUTCHENS: Very nice to be here, Nancy. Thank you.

GRACE: Mr. Fardella, you have listened to all of these tapes very carefully. You`ve worked with law enforcement on many occasions. You`ve heard a lot more than any of us have heard. You know Boulder is keeping it tight to the vest. What`s your take on Karr, Mr. Fardella?

FARDELLA: Well, anybody who`s listened to this material as often as I have -- and certainly, Wendy`s been exposed to it more -- gets the absolute, unequivocal position that this man has hurt little girls. There`s no doubt about it.



HUTCHENS: It was really difficult. I would cry for hours after our conversations, and it was really hard. But you know, I had to do everything possible to try to get this guy off the streets.

Oh, man, when they told me they made an arrest in the JonBenet case, I just jumped up out of my seat and was, like, it had to be this guy.

KARR: Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, There`s Polly Klaas`s house, I want that because I want her -- you know, I want her -- I mean, I want her so bad.


GRACE: We`ll be right back with Ms. Wendy Hutchens, who reportedly recorded John Mark Karr in his own words, hours and hours of conversations as he describes finding little girls sexy, his fascination, his obsession with JonBenet Ramsey, even describing her in death. As you know, tonight John Mark Karr sitting in a Colorado jail cell, an 8-by-10 jail cell, with full access to cable TV, magazines, and newspapers. And from the fit he threw to be dressed in designer duds -- deadly sin, vanity. You know he`s watching right now.

Straight out to "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent Ed Miller. Ed, what`s the latest on the investigation?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, my sources tell me that one of the key pieces of evidence in this case, as you well know, are the supposed e-mails between the professor, the documentarian, and Mr. Karr. And everyone wants to know what was in these e-mails that led police to believe that John Karr really is the killer. What was this detail that he supposedly knew that no one else knew?

Well, we can tell you, my source tells me, that one of them has to do with a bracelet that Mrs. Ramsey apparently gave JonBenet earlier in December, that apparently, Mr. Karr knew all about this bracelet. And the other one has to do with, apparently, where the Ramseys kept their financial records, in the den where the ransom note was written. In other words, he knew, let`s say, the third drawer on the right is where he kept the check stubs, and that`s how he would have known the exact dollar amount of Mr. Ramsey`s bonus. So those two little details apparently was enough to give police some feeling that this guy knows something more than what the public knows.

Now, here is the big dilemma, Nancy, is that the documentarian is very close to the Ramsey family, and twice before, he has pointed the finger to other people that he thought was the killer. So police tell me that they`re a little concerned that he may have accidentally, through the Ramseys now, given Mr. Karr this information and he regurgitated it back to them in these e-mails. So there`s a little bit of confusion whether or not this guy really did know inside details about her murder.

GRACE: Question. Have you read the autopsy report? It`s my recollection, wasn`t the bracelet mentioned in the autopsy report? You can get that on line, for Pete`s sake!

MILLER: The bracelet. But apparently, again, some details about the bracelet, when she gave it to him, that kind of thing, earlier in December. That`s not in the autopsy report.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Ramsey wants what Mary Lacy, the district attorney in Boulder, wants, what I think many millions of Americans want. He wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice.



KARR: What it amounts to is I think that most of us are capable of having any of those fantasies, and it`s hard for me to differentiate between what -- what they mean, you know? Instead of thinking she`s pretty, you start to think she`s sexy. I guess, at that point, you`re probably having a sexual attraction to that child.


GRACE: Back to Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Ellie, can you give me that autopsy report? Thanks, Ellie. If you look at that autopsy report, it talks about this bracelet. And this is so-called inside information that this guy has, John Mark Karr, that nobody else knows. You can get it on line. The bracelet says -- what, El?


GRACE: Page 5 of the autopsy report, Ed, says the bracelet is engraved, "12-26-96." Any moron that can read Arabic numerals knows that she just got it for Christmas. So that`s not a big smoking gun in this case.

MILLER: Absolutely. And that`s what I`m telling you, that there are some insiders within the Boulder Police Department that are already having second guesses -- or second-guessing this documentary professor and what his motives are and the fact that he`s very close to the Ramsey family and that, supposedly, these inside details may not have been so inside after all. And I`m just expressing what some insiders are feeling about this whole thing. But the other issue was that, apparently, Mr. Karr knew where the check stubs were kept.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. You`ve got the bracelet marked -- engraved, "12-25-96," and you`ve got his knowledge of where check stubs are.

You are seeing actual crime scene photographs. This is the paintbrush-turned-garrote. That is the hair of this little girl, JonBenet. This is twisted around her neck. That`s just one of the crime scene photos. We have ruled out most of them as not being appropriate for TV viewing.

But Ed Miller, you keep saying he`s close to the Ramseys. What does that have to do with it?

MILLER: Well, the reason that`s very important is because he would have had lengthy conversations with the Ramseys about, you know, any kind of million and one details about this, so -- and he has produced several other documentaries that also talked about the intruder theory. So the fact that he`s close to the Ramseys, he would have had knowledge of all this inside stuff and may have accidentally relayed that to Mr. Karr.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s part of the problem with the whole process is the skepticism of everybody. I think we need to step back, let the district attorney`s office do their job. And when they cross all the t`s, dot the i`s, you`ll have an answer instead of a lot of speculation.

CALLER: Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, there is Polly Klaas` house. I want that because I want her. I want her. I mean, I want her so bad.


GRACE: Chilling. Chilling is not even the right words for that taped conversation, purportedly of John Mark Karr, the confessed killer of 6- year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey,, that is his e- mail address. His fascination with JonBenet Ramsey extended all the way to Bangkok, Thailand.

He was flown home business class and now tonight sits in a Colorado jail cell, eight by 10, with cable TV, newspapers, magazines, probably watching himself right now. Three hots and a cot, three meals and a bed. Is this guy the real deal, or is he giving Lady Justice a kick in the pants?

Right now, one woman may be able to tell us the answer. Her name is Wendy Hutchens. And for a long, long time, she cooperated with Sonoma County authorities, the police, before he was charged with child pornography, five counts. All this information was sent with her help to Boulder, Colorado, year 2001.

Joining us right now, Wendy Hutchens and her friend, A.J. Fardella.

Thank you to both of you for being with us.

Wendy, when you hear those words that we`re playing back, does it bring back to you, to your mind when you were sitting there taping these conversations?

HUTCHENS: Oh, yes. It makes me think back about that. It`s really hard. You know, whether or not he killed JonBenet, I think that these tapes are valuable to the public because this is what is in the mind of a pedophile. These are what these guys are thinking about when they`re driving past your house looking at your little girls.

GRACE: And, you know, that sounds so far-fetched, Wendy, but we are covering more and more cases, such as Danielle van Dam, Elizabeth Smart, the Groene children, where predators actually are, as he said, driving by their homes, spying on the children. In fact, in the Groene case, Shasta and Dylan Groene, that guy even used night-vision goggles, Wendy, to do exactly what Karr is talking about, driving by the children`s home, just staring at them.

HUTCHENS: Yes. I thought this was just really valuable, because he talked about how these guys, they see the little girl, and they obsess, and they have nobody to talk to and share their feelings. And then they start to fantasize, and the fantasies reach a point when they finally just reach out and snatch the little girls. And the one little girl you mentioned that the pictures of her...

GRACE: Shasta and Dylan.

HUTCHENS: No, the one, van Dam, I think...

GRACE: Oh, yes, Danielle van Dam.

HUTCHENS: That thing, the necklace she had around her throat, remember, in the pictures of her?


HUTCHENS: And Karr said he loved it when those little girls were wearing those necklaces because they reminded him of ligatures. So when he was teaching his classroom, he`d be sitting and looking at those little girls wearing those necklaces imaging they were ligatures around their necks.

GRACE: And you know what else? I remember very well the evidence at the trial of Danielle van Dam. And one of the ways they identified her body, Wendy, was by the little plastic necklace and the Mickey Mouse earrings she still was wearing when her remains were found.


GRACE: That`s one case I`ve never gotten over, and I don`t believe you`re ever going to get over hearing these tapes, taping John Mark Karr. When you heard he was arrested, what was your initial reaction?

HUTCHENS: I literally just jumped right up out of the chair and started whooping and hollering and said, "It has to be him, it has to be this guy." I was like so happy, because I`ve been bugging the Sonoma County sheriff`s department off and on for the last five years of, who`s looking for this guy? Where is he? You know, somebody`s got to be out there looking for him. And so I was so excited that day.

GRACE: Were you surprised he turned up in Bangkok, Thailand, allegedly trying to get a sex change?

HUTCHENS: Yes, I was really kind of surprised about that. But at least...

GRACE: Why? I mean, a nut is a nut is a nut. They`ll do anything.

HUTCHENS: Yes, that`s true. I mean...


GRACE: A cashew nut is not that much different from a walnut, from a pine nut, from a pecan nut.

HUTCHENS: That`s true, but at least he wasn`t in the United States. So that kind of made me feel a little better that that`s why the local authorities weren`t able to find him, because I know they were looking for him.

GRACE: And to you, A.J. Fardella, were you surprised when you heard this guy that Wendy had been taping for so long, literally getting nauseous over, listening to him talk about little girls on the phone for the police? Were you surprised when he was arrested?

FARDELLA: Yes, I was extremely surprised. You know, Wendy was trying to talk to me about this five years ago, and I have to be honest, I was probably like the Boulder Police Department. I didn`t want to hear about it or didn`t want to deal with it. But when she played the tapes for me, I`ve got a little 1-year-old daughter, and that`s all it took.

GRACE: Well, you know, nobody likes talking about, for instance, the garrote made from Patsy Ramsey`s paintbrush that we`re showing you, twisted into it this little girl`s hair from the back of her neck. Nobody likes talking about a 6-year-old girl`s hymen or her underwear or the way her body was discovered. But that is the cold, hard truth. And the point of it is to seek justice.

Take a listen to John Mark Karr.


CALLER: JonBenet, God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, the doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.


GRACE: Joining us right now, Steve Cain, voice recognition expert. He`s an audiotape authenticator.

Mr. Cain, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the tapes?

STEVE CAIN, VOICE RECOGNITION EXPERT: Well, I was provided by members of your staff about a minute and 11 seconds` worth, which turned out to be about two of the excerpts from the two conversations that Wendy apparently earlier recorded in 2001.

I can tell you that I did expose them to what we call voice spectrography, which basically maps out the frequencies of a person`s voice as they vary over time. And I certainly feel that these questioned recordings made by Wendy do provide substantial voice information or voice quality to permit them to be identified.

GRACE: Is it him?

CAIN: I wouldn`t know until I got some voice samples of...

GRACE: Ah, you`ve got to compare it to his known voice.

CAIN: That`s right.

GRACE: So her tapes are of a quality that you can make a comparison once you hear his voice?

CAIN: Oh, yes, absolutely. Now, one other thing...

GRACE: OK, Steve -- go ahead.

CAIN: I`m sorry. No, one other thing that could be done is, many times in these types of multiple phone conversations, the question from a D.A. may be: Do we have one caller, or do we have multiple harassing callers? So in this case, these conversations are long enough that we should be able to pretty much associate the same speaker as being responsible for making all of these phone calls.

GRACE: Steve, how reliable is voice identification?

CAIN: Extremely reliable, as long as the evidence itself is not too degraded and that you get a fairly good voice sample from a suspect, where he or she repeats the words in the original conversation.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been a lot of publicity on this case. He may have done it; he may not have done it. The bottom line is, if he did it, there`s going to be physical evidence that ties him to that crime scene.

CALLER: Who else was I going to share that with? I`ve never driven by her house and said, there is Polly Klaas` house. I want that because I want her. I want her. I mean, I want her so bad.


GRACE: Joining us now, chief correspondent from "Inside Edition" and practicing lawyer, Jim Moret. Jim, what`s going to go down in that first court appearance? And why do you have to have another court hearing within 72 hours after that?

JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, it`s really - - it`s just a matter of procedure here, Nancy. There`s a first court appearance. You make an appearance. But the charges themselves don`t have to be filed for 72 hours.

For the first appearance, really nothing much is going to happen. Perhaps we`ll see the attorney that`s set forth in this case. You know, we`ve heard so many attorneys named so far, we don`t even know who this person`s attorney is.

And, you know, one thing you keep bringing up, and it`s really important. You play these tapes. These tapes are very disturbing. They`re showing a very disturbed individual. The one thing that we really haven`t seen, though, so far between Karr and the Ramsey case is any evidence, and we really have to wait and see.

You have to keep an open mind, because the D.A. says that they`re holding things close to the vest. I haven`t seen anything yet, nor have you, that puts John Karr in Boulder or any physical evidence therefore that links him with this crime other than his confession. And as you know, that`s just not going to be enough.

GRACE: And to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, he`s right. The so-called inside information John Mark Karr has -- for instance, the bracelet -- that`s in the autopsy report. Anybody that has a computer can read that. Let`s talk about DNA, Larry.


GRACE: We know that the DNA from her underwear and her fingernail -- from the fingernail specifically -- was contaminated with the clipper used to take the nails. Inexcusable! Bottom line: Can we salvage the DNA?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think we can, Nancy. You know, clearly, if the clipper had some other source of DNA, that would really make it difficult to interpret the results.

But the fact of the matter is, is the DNA under her nails was degraded. And one of the blood stains on the panties was also degraded. But that other stain, that other blood droplet, apparently does have DNA that was typed by the FBI. It was checked on the national database. So there is information there that can be used to determine if it matches John Mark Karr`s genetic profile.

GRACE: The FBI database having about, what, about 15 million?

KOBILINSKY: I think it was closer to 1.5 million at that time, yes.

GRACE: Ah, 1.5 million.


GRACE: But the reality is, Dr. Kobilinsky, very often you have, for instance, in multiple rape cases, gang rape, or where the victim`s blood and the defendant`s blood have been intermingled at the crime scene, you can isolate DNA. So if you get even a one in 100 match-up to John Mark Karr, that`s going to speak volumes, agree or disagree, Craig Silverman?

CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DENVER PROSECUTOR: I agree that they`re going to be able to type the DNA. And I suspect they have already tested the DNA.

Let`s look at the facts of this case. We know that he had the e-mail correspondence with Michael Tracey. That was followed up by a snail mail letter sent from Bangkok, Thailand. That`s how they located him.

You can bet that Boulder law enforcement took that envelope and the contents of that envelope and scoured every molecule for DNA. Something made Mary Lacy sit up straight in her chair and say, "Oh, my god, get an investigator to Bangkok, Thailand."

John Mark Karr was then followed around for the better part of seven days. He didn`t cook in his own room. He had to eat out. You could get a discarded napkin, food, utensils, drinking cups, and get further DNA.

Something caused this arrest; something caused him to be brought back to Boulder, Colorado. I suspect they already have their evidence, and that`s what puts him in Boulder, Colorado, in the Ramsey home at 755 15th Street, Boulder.

GRACE: Joining us, Craig Silverman, former Denver prosecutor and the host of 630 WHOW show...


GRACE: Oh, OK. Thank you.

I want to go out to Anne Bremner. Craig Silverman is of the mind -- he`s told me repeatedly that the current district attorney would not fly this guy home from Bangkok, Thailand, unless they`ve got the goods. They`re not bringing him in to question him, agree or disagree, Anne?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I agree that they`re not bringing him in to question him. But, you know, right now, Nancy, he killed JonBenet Ramsey or killed JonBenet, I`m Claudia Schiffer. We don`t have anything, and we`ve not had anything in this case for a very, very long time.

GRACE: But you do kind of look like Claudia Schiffer.

BREMNER: Yes, Nancy, I love you. No, but the thing is...

GRACE: So you`re saying no?

BREMNER: I`m saying no. And, you know, he`s criminally creepy, but right now he`s not criminally culpable based on what we know. And DNA, let`s wait and see.

GRACE: To you, Doug Burns, does the district attorney need a silver bullet? I certainly haven`t seen it yet. This guy has holes so big you could drive a tractor through them.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, there are two possibilities consistent with what everybody is saying. Either they`re holding it close to the vest and they have dramatic bombshell DNA matches. I think Craig Silverman`s analysis was good. I mean, how can you bring a guy from halfway around the world with nothing more than the fantasy and ideation of a person who`s mentally ill? They have to have something.

GRACE: But how do you get away -- I`ll throw this to you, Doug and Anne.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: The family is saying, "People, he was here with us. He`s never missed a Christmas with us his entire life." Quote, "It would be a family scandal."

BURNS: Right. The fact that it`s Christmas is a huge point, because his father said, "Look, if he went away to Colorado, we`re all going to know about it." So they`ve got to really look for photographs, and other stuff, and interviews, because you know what, man? To keep it fundamentally simple, we don`t even know if he was in Colorado.

GRACE: Anne, agree or disagree? Go out on a limb, people.

BREMNER: You know, Nancy, I absolutely agree. The thing is, in a case like this, everything leaks in this case. Everything`s on the Internet. You`re right, the autopsy report`s there, the search warrants are there. And if there was some scintilla of evidence of DNA matched right now, don`t you think we`d know it? Don`t you think people would be blogging about it?

I mean, it would be somewhere, and it`s nowhere. You know, life doesn`t imitate art. It imitates bad TV. And that`s what this case is right now.

GRACE: OK, we definitely need a shrink on this one. Forensic psychologist Dr. Michael Nuccitelli, we`re typically on two opposite sides of the fence. So, Michael, give me your best shot. A wannabe that`s giving Lady Justice a kick in the pants or is he the real deal?

DR. MICHAEL NUCCITELLI, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: This guy`s profile and who he is, is probably one of the most fascinating that I`ve seen in a long time. And what`s most valuable about these phone conversations with Ms. Hutchinson (sic) is you hear him actually describing -- I believe he said it four times -- "she`s so alive, she`s so alive, she`s so alive."

This is a man that was not only in fantasy but completely fixated on JonBenet. And after hearing this, these conversations, it almost now leads me to think that this guy didn`t do it because to me he is just in a delusional world.


GRACE: Here is the Web site for our guest, Wendy Hutchens,, to educate others about serial offenders and to promote changes in the law.

What a week in America`s courtrooms, from Bangkok, Thailand, to Long Beach, California, to Boulder, Colorado, and an eight-by-10 jail cell. Let`s take a look at the story and, more important, the people who rocked our lives.


BEN FOLDS, MUSICIAN (singing): Once there was a way to get back homeward...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Mark Karr was arrested for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

FOLDS: Once there was a way...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our mission is the pursuit of justice.

FOLDS: ... to get back home. Sleep, pretty darling, do not cry...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been a kidnapping. Hurry, please.

FOLDS: ... and I will sing a lullaby. Golden slumbers, fill your eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you an innocent man?

FOLDS: Smiles await you when you rise. Sleep, pretty darling, do not cry...

PATSY RAMSEY, MOTHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: We`re very determined to find JonBenet`s killer.

FOLDS: ... and I will sing a lullaby.

P. RAMSEY: We will not stop until we do.

FOLDS: Once there was a way to get back homeward...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Ramsey wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice.

FOLDS: ... once there was a way to get back home. Sleep, pretty darling, do not cry, and I will sing a lullaby.


GRACE: Thank you to our guests, especially you, Ms. Hutchens, and to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight and for this week. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.