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Nancy Grace

Part of Missing Family Found

Aired December 04, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. How can a whole family go missing? But that is just what happened over the Thanksgiving holiday. A family of four, including mom, dad, 4-year-old and 7-month-old, all vanish in the Pacific Northwest, the Portland area. And right now, a stunning development. Has part of the family been found?
We go live for the press conference detailing that rescue. That we know of, some of the family still missing.

And tonight, a massive search for this newborn baby boy, mom and baby kidnapped at knifepoint. The suspect? A female who may be trying to replace her own child, and she`s already resorted to violence.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... helicopter landed. We`ve confirmed that it is Mrs. Kim and the two children. We`re still looking for the father. The mother and the girls have been taken to a local hospital AMR (ph). Where they go from there, I don`t know. And we`ll continue to search for the dad.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. We are waiting to take you live to Merlin, Oregon. We`re expecting a press conference at any moment. How can an entire family go missing? That is exactly what we are dealing with tonight. Reports tonight that part of the family has been found.

Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative journalist. What can you tell us? How did this whole scenario start?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, Nancy, this is an amazing story. This was supposed to be a joyous Thanksgiving road trip, and it turned into a real hellish trip. Dramatic developments, as you said, just in the last couple of hours, that news conference set to start in this remote area of Oregon, the very region where they got lost.

The headline, however, and the good news, three members of the San Francisco family of four that had disappeared in the Pacific Northwest and have been missing more than a week have now been found alive. What we understand is that a search helicopter spotted the missing mom, 30-year-old Kati Kim, waving an umbrella just before 2:00 o`clock this afternoon. They soon found her 4-year-old daughter, Penelope, as well as her 7-month-old daughter, Sabine. They were immediately airlifted to a hospital. We do not know their latest condition.

But the bad news is the father is still missing. The dad, 35-year-old James Kim, is a technology whiz. He also happens to be a senior editor at And he reportedly took off about two days ago, leaving his apparently stranded family in order to seek help, and he hasn`t been seen since.

And it`s just a terrible situation because this is such a remote area, where there are winding roads that are often shut in the wintertime, vast stretches of forest, the cell phones very spotty in that area. So it is so easy to get lost, and apparently, that`s what happened.

GRACE: This 35-year-old father, James Kim, a computer whiz, worked at CNet, last seen strapping on a pair of snowshoes and taking off in subzero weather, if you take into account the wind chill factor. Right now, where is James Kim, and how did this family end up in this remote area to start with? We`re waiting to take you live To merlin, Oregon, with the very latest on an entire missing family.

Out to Lt. Brian Powers. He is there in Merlin. How did they start on this trip anyway?

LT. BRIAN POWERS, OREGON STATE POLICE: Well, I`ll tell you, it took a lot of investigation, but we were able to determine that the family had stopped off at the Chamber of Commerce in Wilsonville (ph), where they were given basically four routes to the coast from the Interstate 5. These four routes is kind of what led us to our search area down here in southern Oregon.

GRACE: And tell me, this is such a long trip. How did they end up all the way -- there you see, in the upper Pacific Northwest -- all the way down to this road that is very often closed in the winter?

POWERS: Yes, they were traveling down the freeway, and we know that they stopped off at the Denny`s restaurant in Roseburg, Oregon. And from that, we were able to basically recover the map that they were supposedly given that indicated four different routes that they could take to Gold Beach, Oregon, which was on the coast. They were given the routes of highway 38, highway 42, and then a route through Glendale, which, again, is -- it`s a mountainous route that isn`t very well traveled, and then the one that`s least traveled is Bear Camp, which is, in fact, where we located Kati Kim and her children.

GRACE: Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative journalist. Jane, it`s my understanding that you can log on to CNet. This guy is a very well respected gadget guru. Did they have an Onstar or a Nuvi (ph) with them to help them find their way?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you would certainly think that if you`re a high-tech gadget guru, you would have all the latest technology. And I`m not a technology expert myself, so I don`t know if -- for example, if your cell phone is not working. I know they did get a ping several days ago, and that was the last ping. So if your batteries run out and you`re in an area that doesn`t have cell phone access -- a lot of these technologies work the very same way -- they may not be effective in that system. And then you run out of gas. You`re cold. Remember, there`s a very young child. That concerns me very, very much. A 7 month-old daughter was left stranded. And obviously, probably...

GRACE: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... in a car, but...

GRACE: A couple of quick questions...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... I mean, she could be suffering...

GRACE: A couple of quick questions for you guys. To Lt. Powers. Did he have any navigational equipment, such as a Nuvi?

POWERS: You know, he may have had...

GRACE: Oh, hold on. Lieutenant, I`m sorry to interrupt you. Let`s go live to the press conference.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... search, where they were located, some background information, and he`ll probably answer most of the questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`ll start (INAUDIBLE) in a couple minutes, about a minute. OK. About one minute? OK. Does everybody have spellings that they need?

QUESTION: Gregg with one G or two?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gregg with two Gs on the end.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Greg with an E, two Gs, Anderson with an O. I`m glad you got it spelled right.

GRACE: We are taking you live to Merlin, Oregon, in the latest in a missing family. All four set off for a vacation over Thanksgiving. Suddenly, we learn they`re gone, seemingly vanished into thin air. In the last two hours, we have learned the mother and two children found, the father sill missing. There you see the police in Merlin, Oregon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll try to update some things possibly this evening on the Web site, the Web site, so I can explain to how you can find that later, if you`d like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty seconds.


GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. This has been a massive search. They were hindered by the weather, Mike.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: It sounds like they were, Nancy. But I`m very surprised that somebody like this, who`s a technical guru, doesn`t have some kind of Garmin (ph) GPS, satellite GPS in the car. I know many people do now and then (ph), probably would help them get where they needed to go. But it sounds like they did know where he was supposed to be heading off to two days ago. So they at least have a direction where he was headed off to. And he apparently does have some wilderness experience.

GRACE: OK, let`s go back to the presser.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... are out presently and will be out there throughout the night, if they need to, in order to find Mr. Kim. With me today is Sheriff Mike Winters (ph) from the Jackson County sheriff`s office, and Undersheriff Brian Anderson (ph), with the Josephine County sheriff`s office.

And at 1:45 today, as we were here inside this room, we had someone come running through the door with good news, and that good news was that Kati Kim had been located by helicopter. Helicopter was able to land, confirm that it was Kati Kim and her two children. James Kim was not with the vehicle. Undersheriff Anderson can share more details about their search for him and the details why he wasn`t with the vehicle. And Undersheriff Anderson will also share details about where the vehicle was at and what`s going to go from this point forward.

But it`s good news. The family, as I understand, is at the hospital, where Kati Kim and the two children were transported. They are reportedly in good condition. No decision`s yet been made as to whether possibly one of the children may have to stay at the hospital overnight. But at least they`re safe and sound, and that`s what everyone was working towards.

Sheriff Winters, can you talk about some of the agencies and resources that were here, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly. It was a -- this has really worked out well between the public agencies and the private agencies, Carson (ph) helicopters, as well as Randy Jones (ph), who flies for Jackson County search and rescue. They`ve had four ships up consistently searching. Edge (ph) Wireless put a gentleman over here. It was through his computer model that we were able to locate a cellular tower hit that concentrated the search in the Bear Camp area. There`s been numerous agencies, as it was stated, you know, from California, U.S. Forest Service, BLM and the whole southwest region of Oregon that have participated in the search. And as it`s been stated, this has been a good outcome to this point. We currently have units tracking Mr. Kim, his footprints, at this time, and hopefully, we`ll have a very good outcome there, as well.

QUESTION: Tell us about what you`re doing tonight to track Mr. Kim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have two gentlemen, two Forest Service officers, that are on that track now, that are following the footprints as best they can throughout the night. And I`ll let Mr. Anderson -- or Undersheriff Anderson talk about the resources that we`re going to deploy out to that region. But we will be out there all night, and we will work 24/7 until we find him and bring him home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once Mrs. Kim was found, the helicopter from Jackson County was able to follow footprints up a road leading towards Bear Camp. At some point, they were able to determine that he went over the side of the road into the Big Windy Creek drainage area, and that`s where the two deputies from Jackson County went over the edge, and they`re tracking his footprints right now.

Tonight, we`re bringing in a helicopter from the National Guard that has a FLIR to try to work that area over. We also have recycled our searchers from earlier today. They`re headed back up there. We`re in the process of trying to get them to drop down the drainage into Big Windy Creek and try to work that out. So we`ll be working that all night.

We do have some dog teams coming in in the morning. We also will have some horse patrols coming in in the morning. We plan on putting some people on the river in the morning, from Josephine County and Jackson County, and also Curry (ph) County will be working up the river in the morning. So we`ll be out there all night, and also, we`ll put out more resources in the morning.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE) What do you understand that Mr. Kim has in the way of clothing, supplies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you see over on this other board is what he`s wearing. He does have bluejeans, tennis shoes, gray sweater, green/brown jacket. We understand he also may have a couple lighters with him. We don`t know if he took a strobe from his camera. Mrs. Kim thought he did, but we weren`t quite sure.

QUESTION: Geographically speaking, how far are they here miles-wise, as the crow flies?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s going to be -- we`re probably looking at over 20 miles where he`s below Bear Camp overlook, down above, and he`s also above Black Bar (ph) Lodge. He`s in the Big Windy Creek area.

QUESTION: Where`s that from I-5?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From I-5? Actually, from here, it`s going to be straight west from us, where we`ve been searching.

QUESTION: Where is this location in relation to where the Stivers and Higginbotham families were found in March?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s opposite -- Stivers and Higginbothams were up at Calvert airstrip, which is going to north of that location, on the other side of the river. The Stivers and Higginbothams went up Graves Creek. It appears that the Kims went up Glalice Creek.

QUESTION: Undersheriff Anderson, what is your opinion about these clothing -- his ability to survive several nights in the weather? And what is the weather conditions up there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not an expert on survivability out in the woods, so I don`t know. We`re treating him like he`s alive. The weather`s been cold at night. But the family that was found today, they were in good shape, very good shape.

QUESTION: How did this family survive so long? Did they have any provisions in the car?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had miner provisions in the car. They ended up running -- they ran out of gas. They were running the car during the day and at night to keep warm. Then they started to burn their tires at night to stay warm. And so they did a good job. They were in remarkable shape for spending nine days out in the wilderness in this type of weather conditions.

QUESTION: What (INAUDIBLE) the roads that they were on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven`t got that far yet. I`m guessing they probably got turned around up there at the top. So we`ll do -- we were able to do one interview with Kati at the hospital, with her search managers, and get all the information we need to at least focus on where James is at. And we`ll be doing that this evening and tomorrow.

QUESTION: Did you say they ran off the road or became lost or...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know, at this point. I don`t know if they -- we do know they got stuck in the snow. So where they`re at is not on the main road. It was not an area we had been able to get into previously because of the snow. We did have the snow cats in there this morning, and in fact, once they were found by the helicopter, within it seemed like 60 seconds, the snow cats were on the footprints and working the area. So we were in there with the snow cats. We were in the right area.


QUESTION: ... Saturday?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my understanding he left the car at 7:45 Saturday morning, was going to walk out, and if he didn`t find anything, return by 1:00 o`clock. He did not return back to the car.

QUESTION: Where did he go when he left at 7:45 exactly?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my understanding he went up the road that they came down, so it would have been up towards Bear Camp.

QUESTION: Up the hill?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up the hill. And it seems at some point, he dropped over the side and into Big Windy Creek drainage, so -- but we`ll be working that road system tonight. We`ll be putting personnel in tonight. And we`ll do it again tomorrow.

QUESTION: How`s the weather helping or hindering the search?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The weather`s great during the day for searching, but it`s a double-edge sword. It`s bad at night because it`s clear and cold. But with the clear weather, we can get the helicopters up. We can get our people out there searching. And like I said, they did well for nine days. And we`re going to be out there looking for Mr. Kim.

QUESTION: Do you know how deep the snow was up in that area?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how deep the snow was up there.

QUESTION: When you say he dropped off the road...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he walked off into a drainage, so...

QUESTION: Where do you think he was headed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t know. Don`t know.

QUESTION: What kind of shape was she in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s in great shape. The kids are in great shape. So we`re happy. I mean, that`s a good find for everyone who was involved. This is a good day for us.

QUESTION: One of the kids may have to spend the night?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could be a precautionary thing, so -- but they`re talking to our search manager over there. They said they`re doing great. I think the hospital will have more information about their condition a little bit later.

QUESTION: They must have had some food and water, then?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my understanding they had a little bit.

QUESTION: How important was that cell phone tower hit to locating where to look?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was critical. I mean, you have someone -- we know they were in Roseburg. After that, we don`t know where they went. And so now we have the cell phone tower, and we did the pi (ph), and we talked about that earlier, and we had the pings. So we were in the right area. We just didn`t get the exact area.

But you know, the searchers did a fantastic job. The helicopters did a fantastic job. You know, Josephine County couldn`t have done this without the assistance from all the other agencies that were involved, and we really appreciate it.

QUESTION: Do you have the name of the pilot or the people that spotted the woman from the helicopter?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my understanding that was a contracted helicopter out of Carson.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Great. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appreciate it. We`ll have more information possibly tonight, as I mentioned, on, and then we may have some updates tomorrow. Just depends how things develop. So if you can, pay close attention to that Web site, Flashalert,net, to the Oregon State Police...

GRACE: Apparently, burning their cars (SIC) to survive in the wilderness. Temperatures dropping tonight, police there saying nighttime searches almost impossible. Where is 35-year-old James Kim?

Out to Dr. Marty MacKary with Johns Hopkins. Dr. MacKary, how and can he survive?

DR. MARTY MACKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS HOSPITAL: Well, a human being can actually go for a few weeks without any food, and water can be taken in from other forms of hydration. In the hospital, we routinely have patients without anything by mouth for a few weeks. What`s amazing about this case is that the kids did survive. Kids tend to be at the highest risk for hypothermia. They have a higher body surface area per ratio with their mass. And that`s what I think is truly amazing about the find today.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Traveling with children and taking on the elements -- do we tend to just get blind during vacation and not realize what we`re doing?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: If you ask any parent, it`s enormously stressful traveling with children. Sometimes they`re crying, they`re whining, Are we there yet? So a parent very often can be very focused on just getting where you need to go, and so you might overlook certain signs that you shouldn`t overlook.

GRACE: Back out to Lt. Brian Powers with the Oregon State Police, the incident commander with this case. An entire family goes missing over Thanksgiving. In the last two hours, we have learned the mom, two of the children alive, resorting to burning their tires for warmth. Lt. Powers is with us there in Merlin, Oregon. What can you tell us about the terrain?

POWERS: It is the rugged mountainous terrain, and it`s -- to travel that route this time of year is just treacherous. And even on the map, it -- it states in there it`s not advised.

GRACE: Now, is this a series of roadways that are often closed in the wintertime?

QUESTION: It is. And it`s not maintained. And like I said, it`s -- there`s signs out there that state that fact, that that road is not maintained during the winter. In this case, I think that Mr. Kim and his wife were just looking for the shortest route from the freeway to Gold Beach. And it is the shortest route, but like I said, it`s very rugged and it`s mountainous and it`s just dangerous to travel that route during this time of year.

GRACE: Lt. Powers, apparently James Kim, aged 35 years old, set off with a pair of snowshoes out into the elements to try to save his family, to rescue them. He has not been seen since, the mom and two children recovered just within the last two hours. If he had reversed himself, Lieutenant, and was walking directly along the same roadway they had been on, why is it so difficult to find him?

POWERS: Well, like the undersheriff stated earlier, he apparently left the roadway. And I am confident that we will find him. I mean, snow in this case is our friend because, you know, we can track him. So we are going to find Mr. Kim. And I think that he`s a highly educated individual, and I believe he`s got the wherewithal to withstand the elements out there.

GRACE: And Lt. Powers, I assume that fresh snow has now covered any tracks.

POWERS: It has not snowed since. So the tracks that we are seeing are the tracks that he had left two days ago. So that`s really good for us.

GRACE: And where do you believe the family -- will they stay there at the hospital tonight? Will they go home? Is there a search headquarters set up?

POWERS: We do have a search headquarters set up in Merlin. And I believe the family will stay in the area until we locate Mr. Kim.

GRACE: Here is what police had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today has been a very good day. We know that right now, there still is one person left to be located and that searchers from numerous agencies are out presently and will be out there throughout the night, if they need to, in order to find Mr. Kim.

And at 1:45 today, as we were here inside this room, we had someone come running through the door with good news, and that good news was that Kati Kim had been located by helicopter. Helicopter was able to land, confirm that it was Kati Kim and her two children. James Kim was not with the vehicle.


GRACE: Back out to Lt. Brian Powers. What were they living off of? What did they have to eat there in the Saab?

POWERS: Well, they`re traveling with children, so I`m sure they had a lot of, you know, children-type food in the vehicle. And you know, it`s hard to say what exactly they had, but I`m assuming with an infant, they`ve got baby formula, and you know, that can sustain life for some period of time.

GRACE: And also, I understood the officer to state that they were actually burning their tires for warmth. Why didn`t that smoke alert helicopters overhead?

POWERS: Well, it just depends on what time they were burning those tires. It`s reported that they were burning them at night. And it`s unsafe, or at least it was unsafe for our searchers to be out there at night and not knowing exactly where they were. So rather than jeopardize the life of our officers, we chose to search during the day, when it was safer.

GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert," an update on a miracle baby found abandoned in a Boston back yard, just hours old, nothing protecting the baby but a trash bag. Baby Jordan tonight released from Boston`s Children`s Hospital, now happily in a pre-adoptive home. The mom who left him to die? No arrest.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at 1:45 today, as we were here inside this room, we had someone come running through the door with good news, and that good news was that Kati Kim had been located by helicopter. Helicopter was able to land confirm that it was Kati Kim and her two children.


GRACE: A stunning development in the moments leading up to our show tonight. A family that had gone missing over Thanksgiving holiday miraculously found, but not all of them. The dad put on a pair of snowshoes and took out on his own to save his family.

Right now, out to Dr. Marty MacKary. How can a human live for nine days without food and water?

MACKARY: Well, essentially, people can eat snow for water and -- there`s no nutritional value, but the body is sort of designed so that at two weeks, they can kick in and an emergency mechanism to break down your muscle will provide the nutrition you need.

GRACE: Doctor, how long can you go, hypothetically, without water?

MACKARY: Really, without water about three or four days. But without food, several weeks.

GRACE: Out to Scott Nelson, Kim family friend joining us right now by phone. I`m very happy for you that part of the family has been found. What can you tell us about the dad, James Kim, still missing?

SCOTT NELSON, KIM FAMILY FRIEND: Well, we`re very concerned about him. You know, he`s a wonderful person. And we`re excited that Kati and the girls have been found, but we`re still -- we`re still crossing our fingers, and you know, we`re very optimistic now that they`re going to find James.

GRACE: And back out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and FBI-er -- Mike, how do you perceive they should control this search tonight?

BROOKS: Well, I tell you, at nighttime, it`s going to be very, very difficult, Nancy. But we heard from the spokesman during the press conference they`re going to have a coordinated ground and air search. The helicopters, as he said, they`re going to have FLIR. That`s forward- looking infrared. It will show any kind of heat signatures, follow along. They`ve already got two trackers, two experienced trackers that are already on the snowshoe trail. I look for them to catch up with him tomorrow.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re doing everything we can to bring the safe return of Baby Bryan back to the family who`s -- you know, it`s evident that they`re going through severe suffering due to the absence of their baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I keep looking outside my window to see if my baby is going to arrive. I keep looking at all the cars that drive by.


GRACE: A massive search for a newborn baby boy, the mom and baby both kidnapped at knife point. The suspect: a female who may be trying to replace her own child, and she has apparently already resorted to violence.

Out to Eben Brown, reporter with NewsRadio 970 WFLA. Hi, Eben. What is going on?

EBEN BROWN, NEWSRADIO 970 WFLA: Good evening, Nancy. This began a few days ago when two women friends, they left the hospital after getting some checkups for their children and they got -- as they were about to get onto a bus, a woman pulls up in an SUV and asks for directions to a certain neighborhood. They give some directions. Then the two ladies board the bus.

When they get off at their stop, in turns out the same SUV is there, and the woman once again asking for clearer directions. So they both decide to get into the SUV of this woman who they don`t know, and they drive to the place this woman is trying to find. The woman agrees to take them back.

When they get back to the bus stop, that`s when the woman, the driver, takes out a knife and threatens both of them. One lady and her baby escapes; another lady stays inside the car. They drive off. About an hour later, the mother is dropped off on the side of the road somewhere, and this woman takes off with this 28-day-old baby boy.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Ray Giudice out of the Atlanta jurisdiction and David Wohl out of L.A. Welcome to both of you.

This was hardly an act of passion. In my mind, she had plenty of time as she was driving along with the people in the back seat to formulate a plan. In fact, Ray Giudice, it`s my understanding that this female perpetrator even borrowed their cell phone and pretended she was making a phone call to her mother to try to get directions. As it turned out, she dialed the number of some unrelated business there in the area, and she was talking to their tape recording, which we now have of her phone call with her mother.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I mean, there`s something wrong here.

GRACE: Yes, she`s a kidnapper.

GIUDICE: Right, well, that`s number one. But I`m going to tell you something: I am somewhat concerned about the actions of the victims. Of course, we`re all concerned about the infant.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

GIUDICE: But hold on for a second now. This is not behavior that mothers of infants would do, to get into a stranger`s vehicle that they see is kind of trailing them. And I`m going to tell you something, Nancy: My wife would eat that knife before she gave up her child, and I know I speak for every mother that`s out there. There was no struggle.

GRACE: Really? Well, you don`t speak for this lady, do you?

GIUDICE: She sat in that car -- she sat in that -- well, maybe you should ask her why she sat in that car for an hour driving around town.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me -- right now, we`re on a fact- finding mission -- that somehow you`re attacking the mom of the newborn.

GIUDICE: If you want to solve this problem, you need to look at both sides of the equation, not just one side.

GRACE: So you think they`re all in it together?

GIUDICE: I think there`s something wrong here. The facts don`t line up.

GRACE: It`s a conspiracy, right?

GIUDICE: Well, sometimes there are conspiracies.

GRACE: OK, you know what, Ray? They`re right out in the hall with the nets and the hypodermic on that one.


GRACE: You`re going nowhere. What about it, David Wohl? I hope you`ve got better than that.

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you know, I`m a little bit concerned, too. It wasn`t the smartest move in the world. Let`s face it.

But, look, anyone who would get into a car and get their child stolen, you know, they`re going to be devastated. They`re going to be wiped out. Listen: Here`s the bottom line for this woman if she did, indeed, take this child. Have a conscience. Get a clue.

The quicker you return this child, the more chance you have at mitigating any possible sentence you might get after a conviction. It`s a tragedy. You just don`t steal something as precious and unique as a child and make it your own.

GRACE: OK, you know what, gentlemen? I`m going to put you on probation right now and let you think up some defenses for this whack-a- doodle that took this baby. OK, because right now, you`re not even speaking English, as far as I`m concerned. All you`re trying to do is blame the mom and talk about a problem in society. Yes, the problem is a newborn baby is missing tonight!

Liz, can you show that picture, please?

I want to go out to Sergeant Mike Carr with the Ft. Myers Police Department. Sergeant, is there any suggestion that the mother of this beautiful baby is in any way involved in this kidnap?


GRACE: Thank you. What can you tell me about the SUV?

CARR: We know that it was a two-door dark-colored SUV, later model. When the women got into the vehicle, and they were -- just from what we`re able to gather from, and they were just doing a very good deed for this woman, who was actually portraying to be a mother trying to locate her newborn baby and was not able to determine where her mother`s house was from where she was at, at the time. She offered them money. And both people, they were a little hinky about what was going on, but they felt they needed to do the right thing.

Now, you`ve got to understand that these people are in a foreign country. They have their own different beliefs. And then the other thing, having 28 years of experience in this line of work, I`ve seen different reactions from different types of victims.

GRACE: Right.

CARR: I`ve been involved in cases where this type of situation has happened. First and foremost, what our goal is here is to get the safe return of baby Bryan back to his mother, Maria.

GRACE: Right now, I want to go out to Marc Klaas, the president of Beyond Missing. Don`t move a hair. Sergeant Mike Carr is with us with the Ft. Myers Police Department.

Marc Klaas, very often when I have to travel for whatever purpose, I would never -- maybe it`s just instinctive by, you know, my job or from prosecuting so much -- I would never slow down and have a male come close to my car window or ask for directions, but I would probably stop and ask a lady...


GRACE: ... because you don`t sense as much as a possible physical threat. There`s no reason -- I mean, there`s two adult women, the child getting into the car. There`s no reason not -- the suggestion that this mother is somehow involved is very, very -- it`s off-mark, and it`s very disturbing.

KLAAS: Yes, it really is. And I certainly wouldn`t want to condemn this mother for doing anything but a stupid act. I think what they have to do now is try to determine exactly what kind of a vehicle it was, and get a very good forensic artist in, and get a composite of who this woman is and what she looks like.

And that then should bring this very excellent agency or multi- jurisdictional effort, headed by the FDLE and FBI, to this woman`s front door and resolve this thing. What we do know is that, in these kinds of situations, the children are generally not kidnapped for either sexual exploitation or for ransom, but rather they are taken by a woman who is trying to get a baby of her own.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, give me your take on it.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: You know, Nancy, I want to make sure this baby gets back, but I have to agree with Ray. Something just stinks here a little bit. Call me a cynic. Call me a cynic. But as an investigator with 27 years` law enforcement experience, there`s something that just doesn`t add up here.

She was with that woman an hour, and all she could do was give a basic 28 to 30 years old, 5`4", straight black hair. Was there any kind of language barrier there? She speaks Portuguese. What did the other woman speak? Did she also speak Portuguese?


GRACE: She spoke Spanish:

BROOKS: OK, so was there a language problem there? Yes, if somebody was there with you an hour...

GRACE: If they were all in it together, then why the phony phone call to the business...


BROOKS: Not necessarily. OK, it might be stupidity.

GRACE: Yes, you know, that didn`t take me long to crack you on that one, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: No, maybe it was stupidity.

GRACE: Took one question.

BROOKS: Would you get in the car? I`m not going to get in a car with anybody I don`t know, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, so we`ve got -- you know, somehow everybody`s bass- ackwards on this tonight. I don`t appreciate -- you can laugh all you want to...

BROOKS: I will.

GRACE: ... calling this mom stupid when she`s trying to help another lady. The point tonight is not all of your judgments on this mother right here. The point tonight is...

BROOKS: Would you get in the car if you had a 28-day-old baby?

GRACE: No, no, I wouldn`t.

BROOKS: OK, there you go.

GRACE: But that`s not the question tonight, Mike Brooks. The question is: Where`s the baby?

BROOKS: That`s the bottom line.

GRACE: You can throw rocks at the mom on some other show, but not here and not tonight.

Dr. Robi Ludwig, help the gentlemen, including Mike Brooks and Ray Giudice, out with the psychology?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it is true that these women who tend to abduct infants, they don`t do it because they want money or they`re doing it for revenge. They do it because they want the child. And they`re not sophisticated criminals. There`s an un-sophistication about the crime. But they can be very manipulative. So I think, because we don`t see women as criminals, you can be very susceptible. And maybe this woman was susceptible, and she paid the price.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most important thing to us right now is getting Abigale back safely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would hope a mother wouldn`t hurt their child. Of course, you would also hope that a mother would not viciously attack or be present for an attack on a social worker that resulted in death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was very cunning. I mean, you know, you`ve got to remember that, when she pulled this off, she had a baby seat in the car. She had a diaper bag in the car, and she didn`t have a child in the car, so she was prepared to do this.


GRACE: Another in a long string of baby-snatchings. At first, it was an unusual phenomenon. Now, it is happening more and more and more. Even pregnant moms being attacked for the unborn child.

Out to Marty MacKary, physician at Johns Hopkins. Dr. MacKary, this child is only one-month-old. We were just showing you the video of the baby immediately after birth -- Elizabeth, if we have that video. What does the baby need in order to live tonight?

DR. MARTY MACKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the important things are nutrition and warmth. Physiologically, the baby needs to be fed. All babies really do are feed and sleep, and they`re on a strict pattern. Disregulation early from a new environment can be harmful. And from a psychiatric standpoint, the issue of attachment is an important one.

GRACE: What does that mean?

MACKARY: Well, babies in the first few days to weeks of life will attach to their mother, and it`s sort of a mystery exactly when or how this occurs. But when they have a new environment and they need to reattach, a prolonged period of time in that new environment can actually result in long-term anxiety and depression when a child needs to reassign that attachment after several months.

GRACE: Just taking a look at this little baby, just a tiny little one-month-old baby. Out to Eben Brown with NewsRadio 970 WFLA. Eben, what can you tell me about the SUV or about the perp?

BROWN: Well, the woman speaks Spanish. We know that because the victim mother said that. Black hair, lighter skin. The SUV is dark- colored, possibly black, has peeling window tint. That`s all that`s really known about it. They don`t have any tag numbers or anything like that to help identify it further, just that it was a smaller SUV, probably a two- door.

GRACE: Smaller black SUV, we believe to be a two-door. The female is a light-skinned Latina female, long, straight, black hair, believed to be between 28 and 30 years old, approximately 5`1", spoke Spanish, last seen wearing a black tee-shirt. Now, this is a two-door late model Explorer or Blazer-type SUV. Repeat: peeling window tint. Take a look.

Let`s try -- out to David Wohl -- David Wohl, what type of felonies is she looking at once she`s apprehended?

WOHL: Well, she`s definitely got kidnapping with a deadly weapon, possibly -- well, it wouldn`t be carjacking because it wasn`t her car, but these are very, very serious crimes.

But, Nancy, I have to go back to the fact that one woman speaks Portuguese, the other one speaks Spanish. I`m fluent in Spanish. I know that Portuguese is a vastly different language. How did that happen? The mother would not say to investigators right when she was -- when the case came to their attention -- why she got into the car. She refused to say.

In order to find this child -- and that`s goal number one -- we`ve got to evaluate the evidence. And the evidence so far is the statement and actions of these two women. What`s going on here? It doesn`t add up.

GRACE: OK. Is Sergeant Mike Carr still with us, Elizabeth? Sergeant Carr, yes, no, didn`t the mom explain why she got in the car, to help give directions?

CARR: Between the conversation of the two women that got into the vehicle, they both agreed that they would help this woman get back to her baby where she was located in the subdivision south of our city.

GRACE: Was there anything misleading or elusive in her conversation with police?

CARR: The mother?


CARR: Absolutely not.

GRACE: And did you observe her demeanor? Was she upset? Is she distraught about the disappearance of her baby?

CARR: Absolutely.

GRACE: All right. Back out to Mike Brooks and Ray Giudice. You still think the mom of the newborn baby is in on it? And she got her friend to be part of the big scheme to give away a brand-new baby?

BROOKS: Well, let`s take a look and see what kind of composite she can give, Nancy, because that`s going to be one of the key things. And they`re going to bring in an artist, a sketch artist, to go ahead and try to get a good composite so they can put this out there to try to find out who exactly this woman is.

Now, we`ve got to evaluate everything, got to eliminate the two people, just like every other case, to make sure they`re not involved. You know, yes, there`s some things that sound like inconsistencies. And one of the things is language. That was one of the things I brought up that I just thought was a little strange. I`m not saying that she is involved in it. There`s just some things that need -- some questions that need to be answered.

GRACE: OK, Ray, take a crack.

GIUDICE: Look, Nancy, on every missing child case that I`ve been on the show on, we have all agreed one thing: You start your investigation with the immediate people that were in the area, both by blood relationship and physically related. I haven`t heard you ask for this woman to take a polygraph examination, which you cry out for on a regular and consistent basis...

GRACE: You know why?

GIUDICE: ... in every situation.

GRACE: You know why?

GIUDICE: Well, why?

GRACE: Because we have a witness. You have a witness!

GIUDICE: I would put them both on polygraph. So give them both...

GRACE: Hold on. No, no, here`s the whole thing. Don`t close your mind. And we have this impartial recording that she left at an unrelated business.

GIUDICE: Nancy...

GRACE: If this were all some type of set-up, why go through all that? There`s no reason.

GIUDICE: Nancy, it takes no time. It eliminates them, and you move onto the next stage of the investigation. There are very many...


GRACE: I don`t have a problem with her taking a polygraph.

GIUDICE: Well, then let`s see what happens.

GRACE: Out to Sergeant Carr, will she take a polygraph?

CARR: Excuse me?

GRACE: Will the mom and her friend take a polygraph?

CARR: We haven`t reached that point yet.

GRACE: And I don`t blame you. You can clearly see, from what you`ve told me, that the mom and the father are horribly distraught. This is not a time for them to be taking polygraphs.

CARR: And our main goal here is to get the baby safely returned to the family.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are looking for, in particular, anyone in the area of Linhart (ph) on Friday, during the hours of 4:00 and 5:00, that may have seen something to contact us. We know for a fact that -- you know, we know for a fact that a vehicle was trying to be flagged down and kept driving. We`re looking for that driver.


GRACE: A one-month-old baby boy abducted. Tonight, we try to help in that search. Out to Sergeant Mike Carr with the Fort Myers Police Department, any new leads tonight? And when will a composite sketch be available?

CARR: We are working some very active leads right now. We`ve just released the composite to the media, the local media, and hopefully the national media.

GRACE: Where is it?

CARR: It`s out there. I`ve actually e-mailed it to your...

GRACE: Liz, let`s see if we can get a hold of that. OK, if you could please e-mail that, we`d love to put it on the show before we sign off, if you could resend that.

And to Robi Ludwig, explain getting in the car.

LUDWIG: Well, these women can be very manipulative, and what`s so interesting is that these women are very desperate. Often they are in unstable relationships and they view having a baby as a way to normalize the relationship or to get the man. And very often, they will proudly display the newborn that they actually abduct.

GRACE: The mom getting in the car. The mom getting in the car.

LUDWIG: She could be very naive. And perhaps she felt, listen, I`m being a good person. I`m helping out this woman who`s in need. That`s always a possibility, and the cultural component, too, which we don`t understand.

GRACE: We are waiting on that composite. Right now, all we know, Latina female, 28 to 30 years old, in a dark-colored two-door SUV, the tinted windows peeling. The one-month-old baby Bryan missing.

Tonight, we stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Jeremy Mulhair, 35, Omaha, Nebraska, killed, Iraq, second tour of duty. Tank Commander Mulhair also served in South Korea and hoped to have another child with his wife when he came home. He leaves behind a widow, Suzie, three children, 9, 8 and nine months. Jeremy Mulhair, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and to you for being with us. NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.