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Nancy Grace

Three Mt. Hood Climbers Still Not Found; Violence Pit Bull Attack in Louisiana

Aired December 13, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Three men stranded on treacherous Mt. Hood, Oregon, two from Dallas, one from Brooklyn, last known alive in a cave hollowed out of ice and snow two miles above sea level, 2,000 miles from home. Freezing snow, sleet, rain and wind tonight at 80 miles an hour all stopping rescuers. Do adventure tours tell climbers up front they may not make it down alive? Did they climb at their own risk? And tonight, can they be saved? All the families gathered there at Mt. Hood.
And a Louisiana community in shock after a pit bull mauls a child, chewing the toes off a 1-month baby girl. Please tell me, somebody tell me those parents are behind bars tonight!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still no sign of the three climbers has been found -- 36-year-old Jerry Nikko Cooke of Brooklyn, New York, 37-year-old Brian Hall from Dallas, Texas, and 48-year-old Kelly James also of Dallas are lost somewhere six days after they set out and four days after getting into trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We realize we have a ceiling of about 7,000 feet with the weather and conditions. Just man and machine are at their limits there. You know, what we`ve been attempting now is trying to get through up there, get to that known point where we had the cell phone call.

FRANK JAMES, BROTHER OF MISSING CLIMBER: But we remain strong. We remain hopeful that the rescue teams will be able to get to my brother and to locate, as well, Brian and Nikko. This is an effort where all three families have come together, and we are holding strong right now.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The families of the climbers, the hikers, now gathered at Mt. Hood, waiting for the latest. Wind gusts up to reportedly 80 MPH, impeding rescuers. Where are the three Americans stranded on treacherous Mt. Hood?

Out to Rob Marciano, meteorologist, CNN field reporter. What`s the latest on the search, Rob?

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, they were impeded again, once again today, Nancy, with winds, as you mentioned, at that elevation could have been as much as 80 miles an hour. Now things are beginning to -- they`ll get another break, basically, tonight and tomorrow morning, and then another storm is about to come in.

Let`s go to the Google map of the mountain, and we`ll kind of try to highlight graphically where search teams have been put out, or at least attempted to have been put out the past couple of days. Right now, you`re looking at the south side of the mountain. This would be the side of the mountain where they would descend. This is the side that is easier to climb and where people climb moreso in the spring.

We`ll slide it around to the north side -- one, two and three areas there -- sand Canyon, Paradise Canyon, also Zigzag (ph), an area on the south and southwest side where numerous teams were set out. Now, nobody could get above the 7,000-foot level today because of the high winds, and they`re not -- I doubt they`re going to get above that level again tomorrow because the storm that is coming in tomorrow, Nancy, is going to be even stronger.

We`ll zoom in a little bit more towards the Cooper Spur area, which is basically a family -- small family ski resort on the northeast side of the mountain which they`re using as a base camp, thinking, or pretty much knowing by the route that they left on their letter that they went up this Eliot Glacier, which is a glacier that a lot of ice climbers use for training. These guys obviously on a training mission. They`ve been on numerous world class mountains, and they wanted the worst conditions-...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait a minute!

MARCIANO: ... and unfortunately, they got it.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Rob Marciano, did I hear you say Eliot Glacier?

MARCIANO: Glacier. Well, you know, Mt. Hood is surrounded by 10 or 12 glaciers. And there`s -- pretty much, if you`re going to climb the mountain, you pretty much have to hike up one of them. The other option is -- and on that map -- is the Cooper Spur route, which is an area that they -- they`re searching because they think they may have tried to come down that route.


MARCIANO: That`s even more dangerous.

GRACE: Why? Why do they believe they may have tried to come down that route?

MARCIANO: Well, it`s on the well of the side of the Eliot Glacier. It`s one of the routes that is taken up to the mountain. It would be one of the routes taken down the mountain, as well, if you can`t go over the top. You don`t want to come down Cooper Spur. Going up, it is dangerous. Coming down it is even more dangerous. So that`s one of the areas they`re searching, east Eliot Glacier, the Pullaly (ph) side near that Cooper Spur area. And the biggest frustration, Nancy, has been the weather. And unfortunately, tomorrow it`s only going to get worse.

GRACE: Out to Steve Rollins, president and rescue leader with the Portland Mountain Rescue. I`m getting twisted up. It`s my understanding they went up the north face of the mountain, of Mt. Hood, which I also understand to be the steepest and the most dangerous. Now, why do we believe they`re coming down a different way?

STEVE ROLLINS, PRES., PORTLAND MOUNTAIN RESCUE: Well, we don`t know exactly what way they went down. The letter that they left reportedly said that if they had trouble, they would go down the north side, not necessarily the route they climbed up, but some way down the north side. However, it is also possible that they tried to go down the south side of the mountain. Timberline Lodge is closer and the descent is easier than on the north side. So arguments could be made either way.

GRACE: With us today, Willie Nash. He knows the climbers. He was actually supposed to be on this trip, this ill-fated trip. He knows Nikko the best. He has met all three, is familiar with all three. Thank you for being with us, Mr. Nash.


GRACE: Tell me, what is it about Nikko that has this adventurous spirit? Why would he take on Mt. Hood? It`s a technical hiking trip. At this time of the year, this is well past the typical climbing season.

NASH: I think it`s only slightly past the typical climbing season. But you know, I`m sure he did a lot of research into it and thought that it was a good time. And he loves the sport, and that`s why he does it.

GRACE: What other mountains has he hiked?

NASH: I know Liberty Ridge, Mount Rainier. Honestly, I forget what else he has done because I`ve only done Liberty Mountain and with him, Liberty Ridge.

GRACE: Willie, at this juncture, knowing him as well as you do, what would be his outlook? What would be his course of action, his course of conduct?

NASH: He`s probably doing what he thinks is most practical, which is conserving energy and conserving water and food, so as long as a terrible accident didn`t happen, he really is just hiding out in a cave, protecting himself from bad weather, and you know, getting hurt further by climbing on in complete blindness.

GRACE: How would you, under these circumstances -- since they were doing a "light and fast," not taking all of the equipment they would normally take for a longer hike, for a longer climb -- how would he go about conserving food and water the at this juncture? I mean, what did they take with them to conserve?

NASH: I mean, "light and fast" is a, you know, concept that`s often misunderstood. It doesn`t mean that you`re making sacrifices and not bringing things that you shouldn`t bring. It means you`re trying to be as practical as possible. Every item that you bring has, you know, many functions. You bring the lightest thing possible, but it still performs the same function as...

GRACE: What food and water could they take?

NASH: Well, the actual hike itself you can do from the base camp in about 16 to 18 hours, as far as I recall, and so they were counting on, you know, doing it in that time. And so they probably bought maybe two days additional food and gas to -- you know, to melt snow for water for about that time, as well.

GRACE: Why did you decide not to go on this particular climb?

NASH: I just had other obligations. I couldn`t make it.

GRACE: Was he excited about it?

NASH: He was very excited, yes.

GRACE: Now, is this in preparation for going up Mt. Everest?

NASH: No, not as far as I know. Nikko has no interest in doing Mt. Everest, as far as I know. That`s -- it`s an unpleasant climb to do Mt. Everest, you know?

GRACE: Well, before he went up Hood, obviously, being a veteran climber, he knew how many people didn`t make it up and down.

NASH: Right. I mean, those statistics aren`t terrible. Not a lot of people die on Mt. Hood, really.

GRACE: So he went pretty fearless.

NASH: Yes.

GRACE: Let`s go out to Tim Hohl, reporter with AM 860 KPAM. He was out on Mt. Hood today. Tim, thank you for being with us again tonight. What can you tell us?

TIM HOHL, KPAM 860: Well, I can tell you the weather is definitely changing, and there`s a concern on the part of searchers that what available window they had is closing. And as Rob mentioned with the forecast, you know, we`re hearing, you know, by sometime tomorrow, there could be 80, perhaps 100-mile-an-hour winds that are hammering the top of Mt. Hood, which of course, is where one of the climbers, Kelly James, was supposedly holed up in a snow cave.

But the searchers I talked to today, especially the fresh ones who hadn`t been on the mountain, were basically brought in for fresh legs, are hoping and thinking, being experienced searchers, that these guys are holed up in a snow cave, trying to conserve energy, trying to keep as warm as they can and trying to ride out the weather.

GRACE: To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner. Doctor, how long can they survive in these conditions? Let`s just go with what Willie Nash has told us, that they had food and water for several days, that they had ability to melt the snow for water. Under the best conditions, how long can they survive?

DR. JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s a very good question, Nancy. It`s hard to predict. You know, the conditions you just described would give them a much better fighting chance of lasting a week or even more. The big concerns, of course, are staying hydrated and staying warm. And the more time they spend at ambient low temperatures, the more they`re exposed to the wind, which, hopefully, they`re not if they`re in a cave, when they run out of water, when they run out of food, it`s harder and harder to make energy. With no water at all, you might be able to last as long as a week or so, but even that`s kind of pushing it. So it`s a very tough call, dependent on those particulars and how much they can keep hydrated and keep warm.

GRACE: You`re seeing pictures of what we are calling a snow cave, how people survive in them. They`re just about as big as your body, as you can see from these photos.

I want to go out to a special guest joining us tonight. This is the brother of Kelly James. Frank James is with us. Mr. James, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: I`m happy to see you. What are they telling you about the rescue?

JAMES: Well, we just got some news. I don`t know that I can verify this for sure, but there are just new reports that Kelly made another cell phone call early Monday morning. And that is cause for great encouragement on my part and the part of the families.

GRACE: I`m so happy. I`m just hearing this from you right now for the first time, as well.

JAMES: Thank you.

GRACE: How did you learn this?

JAMES: Thank you. Well, I just heard it from another report. The sheriff`s office did not -- that`s why I can`t validate it for sure, but I just heard a report from another reporter down the way.

GRACE: Who did he call?

JAMES: I don`t know. I think -- I don`t know if the call was received. I know the -- it sounds like the call was made...

GRACE: So if this is...

JAMES: ... but not necessarily received.

GRACE: ... true, that means in the last 72 hours, they`re alive.

JAMES: That`s right. That gives us enormous hope and that`s what we need right now.

GRACE: That is enormous! Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, not only does that mean they`re alive in the last 72 hours, if they can somehow triangulate more accurately that cell phone transmission -- can they? Can you get a general idea? Can`t they do it within a block, for Pete`s sake?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, the new technology they brought in -- one of the private companies that has volunteered their services for no fee whatsoever, they can actually get it within a few feet, Nancy.

But I was hearing the latest reports right before we came on the air. The latest wires basically said that there were no signals today and that that report on Monday was apparently a call that he tried to make to 911. T-Mobile apparently had that information, and they were able to try to get one location using a normal triangulation, but they able to use exactly one cell tower to say that he was up towards the top of the summit. But there was no signal today whatsoever, which means either the battery is dead or they`re in a place that -- or he has moved where there is no cell coverage whatsoever.

GRACE: OK, let`s think this through just one moment. We`re just learning from Kelly James`s brother, Frank James, that a call was made out on Monday. Our last call that we knew of, wasn`t it, Frank, on Thursday?

JAMES: It was actually Sunday.

GRACE: Sunday. Sunday.

JAMES: We knew there was a call on Sunday, Sunday afternoon.

GRACE: So this gives us another 24 hours of survival.

Let`s go out to Greg Davenport, survival expert. We had already thought they were in a snow cave by that time. And if they are in a snow cave, and this is Monday, you`re getting a cell phone attempt out, they`re alive and coherent, trying to make a call out, what does that tell you, Greg?

GREG DAVENPORT, SURVIVAL EXPERT, ADVENTURE TRAVELER: Well, it tells me that they`re trying to alert rescue to their location, and you know, they`re using what they have as far as the signaling devices available to them. That`s what they`ve got. They know if they call 91, that that`s going to put out a signal that`s going to be intercepted and it`s going to give rescuers their specific location.

But the key with that is not that -- we know their location. It`s that rescuers can`t get that high right now. So knowing their location is very important, but they`re still going to have to survive until the storm settles down.

GRACE: To Tim Hohl, reporter with AM 860 KPAM. Do we know if they all three took cell phones with them?

HOHL: We don`t. We don`t. I mean, we know that -- we know the one phone, the one phone that Kelly James used to make the call, but we don`t know about the others. And I would just reiterate what they were saying about the weather here, is triangulating the position is one thing, but rescuers weren`t even able to go above 7,000 feet today. And where that snow cave reportedly is near the summit is another 4,000 feet up and another four to five-hour hike just to reach, so...

GRACE: OK, wait! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Tim, you`re saying the helicopters can`t go up beyond 7,000 feet. But what about rescue by foot? Can they go up?

HOHL: No, they were not. Because the weather is so bad, the visibility is so poor, none of those rescue teams were able to go above 7,000 feet today.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Jill in Michigan. Hi, Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for what you do. In Detroit, we all love you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, my husband and I are avid boaters and we never go out without flares. And they`re light. And of course, when the weather gets clear, knowing people that are looking for you, if they shot them up, they would find them right away. My question is, why wouldn`t they carry them with them?

GRACE: Excellent question. As a matter of fact, we were just showing videos of that. Joining me here in the studio, Willie Nash. He knows the climbers and actually was supposed to be on the trip. Any idea if they took flares?

NASH: I would say not.


NASH: Well, they weigh a lot.

GRACE: Wasn`t it you that just told me that when you go light and fast, which means you take less gear than you normally would take for an extended hike, you don`t skimp on safety equipment?

NASH: I mean, that`s not your usual safety equipment.

GRACE: Oh, really?

NASH: Really. Yes, not for mountain climbing.

GRACE: So you don`t typically take that.

NASH: No, you wouldn`t.

GRACE: How about locators?

NASH: A lot of people do carry those, but a lot of people also don`t think they work that often. So they sort of find that they`re not too valuable. They work half the time, and half the time they don`t.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopefully, if there`s a heat signature from one of the climbers, we`ll be able to pick it up with a thermal-imaging camera.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The wind`s pretty stiff out here (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When this is pretty stiff, it can handle it usually up to about 40-knot winds. If it gets any more than that, it`s a little bit harder to control. And we have the heavier bird coming in later this afternoon to help us with that.



JAMES: We trust that God is at work here, and we have to trust him with this. And we also trust Kelly. We know he`s a fighter. And so -- and Brian, as well, is a good friend and knows the family very well. Again, we don`t know Jerry Nikko Cooke, as well. But having spoken to his wife today, she speaks very well of him, and he`s a fighter, too.


GRACE: Three man trapped on treacherous Mt. Hood, the families gathered at the mountain. Can they continue to survive?

Joining us, Kelly James`s brother, Frank James, who just told us that a phone call was attempted, a cell call was attempted on Monday. That`s in the last 72 hours. So back to you. Frank, we don`t know who he was trying to call. We think 911?

JAMES: That`s right. I think it was a 911 call, which suggests that he`s cogent in his mind and is able to make that kind of decision.

GRACE: And you know -- out to you, Mike Brooks -- I was just speaking to Willie Nash, who was supposed to be on this trip, didn`t make the trip, has a lot of doubt about these so-called locators that are used by, for instance, deep powder skiers.

BROOKS: Right. That`s exactly right, Nancy. In fact, I have one right here. This is a -- this is one that actually will send out a beacon and will give your location through a GPS system. In fact, Steve Rollins from Portland Mountain Rescue and I were talking earlier today about these devices, and he said, in this particular case, it may have taken the search out of the search and rescue -- in this particular case, Nancy.

GRACE: Of course, a lot of people are skeptical, including climber here on the set with me, Willie Nash.

To Tony in Florida. Question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are an angel. Everyone here in Florida loves you.

GRACE: Tell the defense bar that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have any of the climbers had experience climbing Mt. Hood before?

GRACE: Willie?

NASH: Not Mt. Hood. They have plenty of mountain experience, but never on Mt. Hood before.

GRACE: And Kelly, what was the experience -- Frank, what was the experience with Kelly?

JAMES: Kelly has lots of experience. He`s climbed the Eiger (ph) in Europe. He`s climbed in the Andes four or five times. He`s climbed Mt. McKinley. But 25 years of mountaineering experience. So he is very, very knowledgeable in this kind of...

GRACE: In winter conditions...

JAMES: ... in mountain climbing.

GRACE: In winter conditions, Frank?

JAMES: Yes, he`s climbed in all kinds of conditions.

GRACE: Very quickly -- we`ll all be right back, tracking the progress, we hope, of the rescue teams -- let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert."

Early Christmas present for Enron employees and investors who lost billions in the largest corporate scandal in U.S. history. Former Enron CEO Jeffrey Skilling finally -- thank you, Santa! -- behind bars at a Minnesota federal prison today. Skilling had asked the judge for his own Christmas present, to walk free during his appeal, the former CEO sentenced to 24 years on conspiracy and fraud.

Well, the employees don`t have any money under the tree, but a little satisfaction for Enron employees tonight. Thank you, Santa!



JAMES: We remain strong. We remain hopeful that the rescue teams will be able to get to my brother and to locate, as well, Brian and Nikko. This is an effort where all three families have come together, and we are holding strong right now.


GRACE: Tonight, people all over the world banding together in the hope that three Americans trapped on Mt. Hood will be rescued. Joining us tonight, Kelly James`s brother, Frank James. Frank, where are all the families tonight?

JAMES: They`re all hunkered down. We`re -- we`re with the command center at the sheriff`s office, and we are praying and hoping that these rescuers can get some good weather.

GRACE: Frank, we are, too. Where were you when you learned a cell phone call attempt had been made on Monday?

JAMES: I was right here. I was up here at the bottom of the mountain. And I just heard that report.

GRACE: Could you believe it? Could you believe it?

JAMES: My heart -- my heart was in my throat when I heard that. So very, very, very excited about that.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family wants you to know that we have renewed hope today, as the search effort is receiving help from two companies offering their services free of charge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, however, are going to have two climbing teams on the north and the south side that are going to be in a stand-by ready mode should we get a break in the weather and should they be able to get to that elevation, approximately around 10,000 feet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The families have remained strong. They are supporting each other and looking forward to welcoming Kelly, Brian, and Nikko home again very, very soon.


GRACE: Tonight, breaking news there from Mt. Hood. Apparently one of the climbers used their cell phone coherently just 72 hours ago, on Monday, trying to make a 911 distress call. Are they still alive? Can they be saved? Wind gusts up to 80 miles an hour, along with snow, sleet, and rain, hampering the rescue efforts of the rescue crew. The families gathered there huddled at Mt. Hood.

Out to Rob Marciano, CNN field reporter and meteorologist. They`re saying they can`t go up above 7,000 feet by helicopter or by foot. What are the different weather conditions at the top of this mountain, as opposed to where they are?

MARCIANO: Well, where they`re based, at about 4,500 or 5,000 feet, the key, not only elevation, but there`s also trees there. Right now you`re looking at the eastern flank of the mountain. Last night around 4:00 in the morning, at this point, at about 6,600 feet, there was a 78- mile-an-hour wind gust. So with this next storm coming in, there`s no doubt that the winds will get over 80, maybe close to 100.

We swing it around to the northeast side now, just to get...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, Elizabeth, let me see what Rob is doing there. He`s pointing at something. Go ahead, Rob.

MARCIANO: All right, this is the route they took. So they started down around the Cooper Spur area, and then made their way up Elliott Glacier. We think that Mr. James is holed up around 10,000 feet right at that level.

Now, the area here, this is about timberline. That`s about 6,000 feet. This is about 7,000 feet. So they can`t go above this level. They have been searching the last two days everywhere south of here hoping to get at least the other two guys who may have come down the mountain to get help. So far, the limitations have been at 7,000 feet. And that`s not going to change, Nancy, until at least Friday, if not Saturday. Winds won`t calm down until Saturday morning.

GRACE: To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner, can they make it that long without water or food?

ARDEN: I wouldn`t completely give up hope on this, Nancy. It is going to be very tough for them under those conditions in that amount of time. I would never say that this is impossible, but it`s definitely going to be very tough.

GRACE: Out to Greg Davenport, survival expert. Are flares something that you always take with you under conditions like this? And if they can`t melt the snow, can`t they eat the snow?

DAVENPORT: Well, I`m a big survival guy, so I actually believe in carrying things that are going to signal rescue your location. However, flares like we might see here, which is an orange smoke flare...

GRACE: Can you hold that up for me? I couldn`t quite see that. There you go.

DAVENPORT: Sure. It`s an orange smoke flare. And this will actually put out a smoke for, you know, upwards of 45 seconds. I also have an aerial flare which will put up a signal in the area, pretty high, about anywhere from 1,000 feet or so and burn for about seven seconds. These are great devices to have, but they`re a one-time use item.

And also, with winds like that, they almost become worthless, because they`re going to be thrown off and the smoke`s going to dissipate before rescue is even going to be able to see it. Better for them than that might be to bring a device that`s going to signal rescue and work for them continuously. And all they have to do is maintain it or use it on a regular basis.

GRACE: Well, what would that be? Is that the thing I`m seeing now, this intermittent light display?

DAVENPORT: Well, you know, that`s a signal mirror. And the great thing about a signal mirror is, if that helicopter is able to get up there above 7,000 feet and the sun`s out, this signal mirror is probably more responsible for more rescues than any other signaling device out there. And if they can get that into the cockpit of that rescue aircraft, it`s going to pinpoint their location.

Other things that they might do -- let`s say, for example, the aircraft`s up there, and coming by, and they`re not outside the snow cave, if they had a space blanket that they weren`t needing for other purposes that had an orange side, they could actually lay this down in the snow, and it would definitely contrast the snow and attract rescue to their location. But they should only use this if they`re not in hypothermic conditions, which more than likely they`re dealing with.

As far as, Nancy, as far as your questions about eating the snow, I would strongly advocate against doing that. The snow should be melted before it`s taken in.

There`s two problems with eating it. One is your body core temperature is going to go down from, you know, putting that cold substance in your body. And then, number two, it requires energy for the body to melt that once it`s taken in, and that energy requires water. So you`re actually going to probably lose more water by eating the snow than you`re going to get by putting it in your mouth.

Better yet, they could put it in their water containers, agitate it, if they have a little water in there...

GRACE: Agitate it? What do you mean by that? Shake it?

DAVENPORT: If they have a little -- yes, shake it. And another thing would be they could put it between the layers of their clothing and let their radiant body heat melt that snow. And this would be a really good way of turning that snow into a liquid substance.

I have to mention with that, though, that they shouldn`t put it directly against the skin, because that`s going to, of course, decrease their body core temperature.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Massachusetts, hi, Julie.

CALLER: Oh, hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Thanks, dear.

CALLER: Thanks for taking my call. I like the show. One of the questions was already answered about the snow. The other question I had was: Does anyone know what type of clothing they were wearing?

GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, here in the studio with us, Will Nash. He knows all three climbers and had intended to take the trip with them.

What is this array of items? Can you get things like this, for instance, at a typical EMS or mountain supply store?

NASH: Yes, everything is readily available.

GRACE: OK. Can you tell me what all this is?

NASH: And it`s not too much of a specialty item, but...

GRACE: OK, a parabar (ph), I know what that is.


GRACE: OK, what`s the rest?

NASH: And I`m sure they have plenty of stuff like that, block shots (ph), which are just high in calories, like gummy bears, pretty much.

GRACE: I mean, you could really sustain for days off just some of this.

NASH: I think those are 90 calories each.

GRACE: OK, I`ll be taking this home with me. Go ahead.

NASH: I wouldn`t bring that, and I doubt they did actually. These hand and toe warmers, probably they would never bring them.

GRACE: Would not?

NASH: They`re too much weight.

GRACE: Too much weight?

NASH: They`re too much weight and they are only good for...

GRACE: OK, what would they take?

NASH: ... about, you know, 10, 15 minutes. They just dress warmly. It`s one layer, a very light layer glove, and then a heavier glove, a fleece glove on top of that, and your shell glove, just like what your typical fabrication of an ice-climbing glove is.

GRACE: Now, they would be using these. These are the crampons.

NASH: Crampons, right.

GRACE: In all my climbing, I`ve never done ice climbing. But you actually dig into the ice with these. So that`s what -- but my question is, you`re saying, if they were going a fast and light climb, what type of outerwear would they have on?

NASH: OK, I brought that, as well. You wear your base layer, which is a long john, but it`s always made of a synthetic fabric, such as polypropylene. And then this would be your next layer, which is just like a fleece...


NASH: ... which would go on top of that. Then on top of that, you have one option which would be to put on your shell, which is waterproof and windproof.


NASH: Which is also very light fabric.

GRACE: Windproof?

NASH: Right.

GRACE: And always with a hood.

NASH: Yes. You`ve got to protect your head. You should always be wearing a hat.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Arden, how much body heat do you lose through your head?

ARDEN: You can easily lose as much as 25 percent of your body heat that you`re radiating or dissipating from your head. A lot of blood supply in your scalp and in your head.

GRACE: Twenty-five percent?

ARDEN: Yes, around that. It`s very significant.

GRACE: Continue on.

NASH: And then, if it is colder than this, you would go to your insulation layer, which is this, which is a synthetic fabric.

GRACE: So, so far, I`ve got three layers. OK.

NASH: Well, three layers, plus your base layer, which you would always be wearing.

GRACE: What is this giant thing?

NASH: And then this -- and that would be enough. And that I brought as an example of what they wouldn`t be wearing and what`s sort of an antiquated...

GRACE: It`s huge. This is antiquated?

NASH: Jacket, yes.

GRACE: Because it`s too heavy.

NASH: Well, it`s good for one thing, which is keeping you warm. If you are hiking, you`re going to perspire a lot, and you do get warm. And when down gets wet, it doesn`t keep you warm at all. But that`s too hot to hike in, and so you would wear it just to sit out and stay still in.

GRACE: To Frank James, Kelly`s brother, any message for us tonight?

JAMES: My message is a message of hope. We are determined to stand firm. The families are confident that we will see this come to a good resolution.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, it`s an unmanned drone that we send up into the air. It has two types of camera capabilities. One camera is regular video; the second is a thermal imaging video. We`re obviously looking for hot spots on the ground.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the pit bull Bossier City police say bit off four of a 1-month-old baby`s toes early Sunday morning. It happened at this home, while police say parents Mary and Christopher Hansche were asleep, a child in the car seat right next to them. The police say the age of the dog in question stood out right away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The puppy itself was just several weeks old. This was essentially a puppy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both Hansches have been charged with child desertion.


GRACE: A Louisiana community in shock. A pit bull chews off the toes on a 1-month-old baby girl. She is still in the hospital tonight. Out to Sara Gouedy with KSLA-TV.

What happened, Sara?

SARA GOUEDY, REPORTER, KSLA: Well, basically what happened is this, Nancy. Police are telling us that, on Sunday morning, early morning, the parents were asleep in their home, the child in a car seat right next to them. And the parents basically reported to police that they believe the dog, the young pit bull puppy that they have in their home, may have at some point actually gone to the child and bit the toe of the child, actually bit off several toes of that baby girl.

The parents took the child to the hospital to Willis Knighton. That`s when they called police. So all of this that we`ve learned about this story is actually coming from what the parents told police at the hospital that morning when they took the child there for medical care.

GRACE: Out to Mark Natale. He is the public information officer with the Bossier City Police. Officer, thank you so much for being with us. It`s my understanding the parents say that they were asleep on a palate on the floor that they had taken in front of the TV. They were going to watch TV over night, and they put the little girl in the car seat next to them. Is that correct?

MARK NATALE, BOSSIER CITY POLICE: That`s what the parents tell our officer, Nancy. We actually found out about this case after being notified by hospital personnel, once this couple brought their child to the hospital.

We investigated further with our juvenile unit; detectives with that unit investigated and basically came to the conclusion, based on the statements from the parents, that the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room. They were asleep. And the child was in an infant carrier right next to the mattress. They told us that they woke up, they heard the baby crying, they woke up, and saw their child had been injured.

GRACE: Let`s unchain the lawyers. So that`s what they say happened, Richard Herman and Penny Douglass Furr. I don`t buy that for one minute. You can`t tell me that the baby is right there beside them on the floor, Richard Herman, and the first -- she has one toe left.

How is this lady going to jog, to walk on heels, if she wants to, to dance a pirouette, for Pete`s sake, to go to ballerina classes in kindergarten? Forget about it. It`s over. And it`s their fault, and this is why.

How can they be asleep right there on the floor watching TV -- we`ve all done it -- and her right there and she didn`t let out a scream on the first toe? Nine toes, gone, gone. There`s one -- four toes gone. She had had to yell. She had to cry at the first nibble.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first of all, Santa`s watching, so just be careful there, OK?

GRACE: Yes, well, I know Santa very well, and I think he`s on my side.

HERMAN: All right, listen, this is a misdemeanor charge that they`ve been charged with. And as a result of that, as a result of that, these parents are in a maximum facility lockup. And the first time they`re going before a judge is Tuesday. This is unconscionable.

But with respect to the statute, the misdemeanor statute that they`re charged under, the prosecution is going to have to prove that the parents put the child in a hazardous and dangerous condition. And for the parents to know that, they should have known that, there had to be some propensity for this dog, this little puppy, to have caused some kind of dangerous condition in the past. And if it can`t be proved, they`re going to be acquitted, Nancy.

GRACE: It`s a pit bull.

HERMAN: They are going to be acquitted.

GRACE: What more do I need? OK. Save it for the appeal, OK, because you`re going to need it, Herman. What about it, Penny Douglass Furr? P.S., before Penny says anything, let me just advise the viewers, FYI, she`s got four Rottweilers running through her house right now, not kidding.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And when my dogs were this age, Nancy...

GRACE: The last time I rang your doorbell, God help me, all I saw were fangs coming at the front door.

FURR: When my dogs were puppies, they were safely in their crates where they belong. The baby should have been in his baby bed or her baby bed where she belonged, and this would not have been an issue.

All puppies chew. It doesn`t have to be a pit bull puppy. All puppies chew. These puppies should be in crates with chew toys, locked up. It should not be running loose.

GRACE: They weren`t. The baby wasn`t in the bed, and the dog was running free eating the baby`s feet. On one foot, she`s got one toe.

FURR: And the parents were very negligent. That`s horrible negligence on the part of the parents, and I don`t understand...

GRACE: You`re the defense lawyer.

FURR: ... how they didn`t wake up. How did they not wake up?

GRACE: You`re defending the puppy. That`s your problem. You`re not here to defend the two clients. You`re defending the puppy.

OK, Richard Herman, she`s clearly defending the puppy, who may very get the puppy death penalty. Richard, give me your best defense in a nutshell.

HERMAN: Nancy, my best defense is this dog never did anything in the past to lead them to believe that this dog would cause any harm to anybody.

GRACE: OK, so it doesn`t have a criminal history. OK, that`s your best shot?

HERMAN: No propensity, propensity.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, why we hear a story every other day about a pit bull eating a baby, why? Why would you have one? There are a million puppies you can have in your home, and I have a fluffy, little cat.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Because of the image, the fantasy that a dog that can be aggressive -- and it depends on the human to control them, and train them, and secure the dog, that this is a macho dog. This is a power dog. And people are drawn in. People buy puppies.

GRACE: Don`t you have two Dobermans?

SAUNDERS: I sure do.

GRACE: So you`re drawn into the fantasy?

SAUNDERS: No, they`re beautiful, and they`re sweet, and they`ve been really well-trained, so they`re pussycats.

GRACE: OK, out to Nicole in Utah. Hi, Nicole.

CALLER: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I have a quick comment and a quick question.


CALLER: First of all, I was going to agree with you on, how did the parents not hear the baby making noise on the first bite?

GRACE: Ridiculous.

CALLER: But the second question is: What are they going to do with the pit bull puppy now?

GRACE: Out to Sara Gouedy. Where is the puppy? Why does everybody want to know about the puppy? Why doesn`t anybody want to know about the baby with one toe on a foot? Sara, let`s go to her question: Where`s the puppy?

GOUEDY: Right now, the puppy is actually at the Bossier City Animal Control Office. It is not being removed from that office at this time. Instead, like Mark was telling you earlier, they`re keeping it in the control office. They`re going to wait for a judge to decide all of this, and it is actually staying there right now.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This puppy may have been trying to nurse on the toes of this baby. I mean, that sounds a little farfetched, but that`s the first thing that would come to my mind.


GRACE: A Louisiana community in uproar after a pit bull chews the toes off an infant child. Joining us, Dr. Michael Dale out of Shreveport, Louisiana, veterinarian and the director of Kato Animal Services (ph).

Doctor, thank you for being with us. Why would a dog do something like this?

DR. MICHAEL DALE, VETERINARIAN: Well, the first thing you have to look at, this is a 6-week-old puppy. A lot of people like to think that because it`s a pit bull, but I really don`t think it had anything to do with that. The first thing that came to my mind was this puppy was probably trying to nurse. I have in the past advised my clients to wean their puppies when they were about six weeks old.

GRACE: So you think that could be what was going on. With us, Dr. Michael Dale out of Shreveport, long-time veterinarian in that community.

Back out to officer Mark Natale. Officer, it`s easy to blame the puppy dog, because it`s a pit bull and they`ve got quite the criminal history, but what`s the deal with these parents? What were they doing while the child was getting permanently deformed? And why are they being held on a misdemeanor? This sounds like aggravated battery.

NATALE: Right, Nancy. Well, I can tell you that the investigation is continuing and that our detectives are consulting with the district attorney`s office, so we may see some changes in that regard. But, just based on the evidence that we had, there were no witnesses to this incident. All we`re going on is what the parents have told us. And based on that, we felt that this particular charge was the one that was warranted.

GRACE: Well, you guys tell this little girl that when she wants to take ballerina class, Officer. Hey, I`m on your side. I just -- this story just isn`t shaking down right with me.

Let`s quickly stop to remember Army Captain John Ryan Dennison, 24, Huntsville, Maryland, killed, Iraq. A West Point grad and history buff, he received a Bronze Star and Purple Heart. A competitive athlete who loved marathons, Dennison, American hero.

A special good night here in the studio from Jennifer and Julie, roommates at Georgia Southern.