Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Ron Goldman Sues O.J. Simpson Over Book Deal

Aired December 20, 2006 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, O.J. Simpson being sued again. Why won`t he go away? Breaking news tonight. The battle over Simpson`s "how to commit double murder" book takes yet another twist. Simpson sets up a fake, a dummy corporation to hide millions in blood money from the families of his two murder victims. Simpson is busted! Oh, if I could just arrest him myself!

FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: Twelve years ago, Ron and Nicole were murdered, murdered by a man whose name I still to this day refuse to use.

We`re going to be an albatross around his neck for the rest of his life.

He` never been punished for a single act of violence in his whole life. He`s never himself paid one single penny for this judgment. Never. He`s flat out admitted that he did it for money and received the money.

O.J. SIMPSON: (INAUDIBLE) Of course I got paid. I spent the money on my bills. It`s gone. Goldman and them, they got to stop being professional -- professional victims.

GOLDMAN: Whatever he does, we`re going to be looking over his shoulder and trying to make certain that one way or the other, he gets punished.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Fifteen years, and these double murder charges still haven`t gone away. And if you think Simpson is out there reclaiming his life and doing something noble, you are so wrong. His book, basically a "how to commit murder" manual, has been basically banned. But still, is it true that he has dummy corporations to hide $1 million, possibly more, from the families of his victims? That tonight.

To you, Jane Velez-Mitchell. What`s happening?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, Nancy, this is the sordid Simpson saga that just doesn`t want to go away, Fred Goldman, the father of murder victim Ron Goldman, suing O.J. Simpson, accusing him of fraud. Specifically, in a lawsuit that I am holding in my hands right now, Fred Goldman -- it says that O.J. Simpson set up a dummy corporation, a shell corporation by the name of Lorraine Brooke, so that Simpson could walk away with about a million dollars without the creditors being able to get a hold of the money.

Now, the chief creditor, of course, is Fred Goldman himself. He says O.J. Simpson owes him 28 -- actually, it`s up to $38 million...

GRACE: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... with accrued interest. And that`s because Fred Goldman won that money in the wrongful death civil judgment that was leveled against O.J. Simpson.

Now, one interesting note. The name of this dummy corporation is Lorraine Brooke, and the suit which I hold in my hand says that that comes from the combination of two of the middle names of two of O.J. Simpson`s children, Arnel and Sydney.

As for whether or not Fred Goldman will ever get the money, O.J. Simpson has been quoted as saying, Hey, I spent it. I had some debts. Yes, it was blood money, but I jumped in with the rest of the jackals, and I have used that money to secure my homestead and pay some taxes and pay some debt. So that money may not be there anymore.

GRACE: Here is what Mr. Goldman has to say.


GOLDMAN: It`s a heck of a way to justify creating a book that, however you want to look at it, is a "how to murder" book, "how I murdered, or how I could have murdered the mother of my children and Ron." Bad taste, morally reprehensible any way you look at it. Bad, bad idea.

He`s flat-out admitted that he did it for money and received the money. First he said that he did it for the sake of his children, and then later in that same interview, he said that he used it to pay bills and pay off tax obligations. So there`s no question he received the money.

We`re fairly certain that he was to be paid, in total, about $1.1 million and that he received about $880,000.

We`re going to be an albatross around his neck for the rest of his life, and whatever he does, we`re going to be looking over his shoulder and trying to make certain that, one way or the other, he gets punished.


GRACE: We`ve got an all-star legal think tank with us tonight. Gloria Allred out of L.A., former Brown family attorney, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and John Burris joining us out of San Francisco.

First to you, Gloria Allred. This suit that I`ve got in my hand is filed by the Goldmans against Simpson and this phony dummy corporation, Lorraine Brooke Associates. Let me get this straight, Gloria. So Simpson sets up a fake corporation, so Fox Broadcasting -- and let me repeat again, this is not the Fox News corporation, this is Fox broadcasting. It`s a different thing. They paid the dummy corporation instead of Simpson. So all that money, if he hasn`t spent it all, is sitting there in this fund?

GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, apparently, the lawsuit is against Simpson, and so the question is, What has he spent it on? Are there any assets that they can get to to attach, which, of course, has been the longstanding problem since the civil court judgment in favor of the estate of Mr. Goldman and the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson. So if it, in fact, can be proven to be fraudulent, which it may very well be, then, in fact, the court could order the assets frozen, if there are any assets left, and there could be a writ of attachment to seize those assets and get them for the estate of Mr. Goldman.

GRACE: To John Burris, defense attorney also out of the California jurisdiction. John, welcome to the show, friend. In this case, it`s naming Simpson, this scam corporation, Lorraine Brooke Associates. Now, John, right now, it`s just naming him, but is there a way -- and I don`t see it, but is there a way that Fox broadcasting -- not Fox News, Fox broadcasting -- is a party to this for knowing full well about the judgment against O.J. Simpson, now to the tune of $38 million, yet they paid this money to a sham corporation?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think the Fox Corporation is liable in any way. I mean, they don`t have a duty, nor does anyone else have a duty to satisfy O.J. Simpson`s debt. If an attachment -- a judgment had been issued and an attachment, a writ of attachment had been filed against them before the money was released, then they`d have some duty to collect that money. But without that, there`s no duty on their part. No one has the duty, in fact, to help the Goldmans collect that money. And if O.J. goes into an agreement with someone, unless that money is attached at the time it happens, then it could be paid to whomever. And I don`t think that O.J. Simpson has any duty himself to tell the Goldmans when he`s going get some money.

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Burris, please! You and I covered the trial together. You`d have to be living under a rock not to know he`s got a judgment...

BURRIS: No, no. That`s a different question.

GRACE: ... of $38 million against him!

BURRIS: There`s no question...

GRACE: Much less Fox broadcasting.

BURRIS: ... that there`s a judgment -- there`s no question there`s a judgment against him. The question is, Does he have any duty to notify anyone that he is, in fact, getting any money so it can be attached? I don`t think so. I think it`s up to the Goldmans themselves to be diligent and be in a position...

GRACE: No, no, no, no.

BURRIS: ... when they see something...

GRACE: I agree with you on that...

BURRIS: ... to then go after the money.

GRACE: John, wa-wa-wait! Save your breath. I agree with you on that. Simpson doesn`t have to wave a red flag and, Say guess what, I made some money, finally, after all these years, nearly 15 years. The murders were in June 1994. What I`m saying is Fox broadcasting handing the money over to Simpson, knowing there is this judgment -- can they be liable?

BURRIS: No. I`ve said that before.

GRACE: OK. I agree.

BURRIS: They`re not liable because they have no duty. Unless they have a legal document that says to them that they have to pay this, there`s a lien against it, then they have no duty to do it...


BURRIS: ... nor does anyone else have any duty.

GRACE: And to you, Renee Rockwell. Come on, you really think Simpson hasn`t plowed through that million? He already owed $20,000 for stolen cable anyway.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the money is obviously gone...

GRACE: Stolen cable, Renee!

ROCKWELL: The money`s gone...

GRACE: Forget the two dead people in the driveway. He had still $20,000 stolen cable.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, the money`s gone. But here`s the situation. You`ve got a judgment against O.J. He can go to work, make the money, put it in his own checking account. If the Goldman family can`t get it out of there before O.J. spends it, he`s at leisure and he`s free to send it anywhere. He could have told the book company, I`ll do the book, pay my children directly. I`ll do the book, give it to the orphans in Uganda. Fair game. Find it. Catch it if you can.

GRACE: Joining us right now, O.J. Simpson`s attorney, Yale Galanter. Yale, are you doing a little skiing out there in Aspen?


GRACE: So you`re not worried about this lawsuit?

GALANTER: No, we`re not worried. It`s a frivolous lawsuit. You know, the Goldmans have been barking up the wrong tree...

GRACE: Once again...

GALANTER: ... for a long time.

GRACE: ... you haven`t disappointed me.

GALANTER: And as empathetic as I am for them, there was nothing fraudulent about what O.J. Simpson did. It was not a sham corporation. It was a corporation that was recognized by the state of Florida, filed by the secretary of state. The corporation paid its taxes, did everything it was supposed to do. So the characterization of it as a sham is incorrect. It was a corporation that was set up for the benefit of his children.

GRACE: I`ve got a question.

GALANTER: O.J. Simpson has an absolute right to work. He did work. He`s got no duty to tell anybody in the world when...

GRACE: Yale, question.

GALANTER: ... he`s working or how he`s working.

GRACE: Question. The corporation, what was its business?

GALANTER: The business of the corporation is to represent O.J.

GRACE: That doesn`t even make any sense.

GALANTER: They`re his agents.

GRACE: OK. I know Yale Galanter is -- actually, everyone, regardless of that last answer he just gave you, is actually a very well-respected trial lawyer. And we all had to take corporation law, and there`s such a thing as a sham corporation where the corporation is truly the individual. Now, what is the business of this corporation? It`s got to have a purpose other than hiding money for O.J. Simpson.

GALANTER: It doesn`t hide any money, Nancy. It has nothing to do with hiding money. Everything about the HarperCollins Judith Regan book deal was done by contract. Checks were paid. There was nothing fraudulent. There was nothing surreptitious about it...

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something else...

GALANTER: ... and that characterization is just incorrect.

GRACE: Does the Lorraine Brooke Corporation have an office?

GALANTER: Yes, it has an office.

GRACE: Where?

GALANTER: It`s in Miami.

GRACE: Where?

GALANTER: You mean the exact address?

GRACE: Yes, because these documents say it does not have an office.

GALANTER: Nancy, I mean...


GRACE: Where would it be? In his home.

GALANTER: You can plead anything you want in a document.

GRACE: And I`m asking you to prove it wrong.

GALANTER: I mean, that lawsuit also says...

GRACE: Where`s the office?

GALANTER: The lawsuit also says that they have no intention of collecting money against O.J. Simpson, they want to use it as a vehicle to try and gather information.

GRACE: Can I get back to the Lorraine Brooke corporation that O.J. Simpson created? When it was created? Do we know that?

GALANTER: It was created over a year ago.

GRACE: Over a year ago. And when was the book deal done?

GALANTER: Well, I wasn`t part of the book deal, but...

GRACE: Let me guess, over a year ago?

GALANTER: ... my understanding is that the book deal was done probably three or four months ago.

GRACE: Back out to Gloria Allred. Gloria, Yale, of course, is doing an excellent job representing his client, O.J. Simpson. Let`s talk about what it means to be a sham corporation under the law. Explain.

ALLRED: Well, let me just say, you know, this may or may not be a sham corporation, Nancy. But the question really is, was this corporation used to avoid fraudulently the payment to the creditors, that is for the judgment that the civil court rendered? Was it used for that purpose? Was there a fraudulent purpose in using even a legitimate corporation? And I think that really is the question that needs to be answered in the lawsuit.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Alice in Arizona. Hi, Alice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. Thank you for doing a wonderful job every evening.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, what is the psychological and emotional effects doing to the children? They relive the trauma that they`ve already gone through once with the death of their mother. How are they handling this?

GRACE: Now, that`s an excellent question. Rosie, see if we can pull up the information on Sydney, which is Simpson`s daughter, now in college, 911 call regarding her father.

Out to you, Lauren Howard, joining us out of New York jurisdiction, psychotherapist. Lauren, Simpson has stated that all this money was for his children. Then he turned right around and said it was to pay off his debt and secure his mansion.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, quite frankly, Nancy, does it really matter, at the end of day, what he says the money is for, isn`t for? A judgment was made against him. The only justice that can be served at this point in this debacle is for him to follow the rule of that judgment. And all the loopholes and dummy corporations and legal manipulation does not change the fact.

GRACE: I was talking about the effect on these two children, and I got the answer to when the book project started. It was about a year ago, April 2006, about the same time this sham corporation was created.

Speaking of how his children are doing, take a listen to this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the policeman. How may I help you?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. I`m not understanding what you`re saying.

SYDNEY SIMPSON: He doesn`t (DELETED) love me or any of his kids!




911 OPERATOR: Is he talking to you?


911 OPERATOR: Are you locked in a room or something?

NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: No. I mean, he can come right in. I`m not going where the kids are because (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Do you think he`s going hit you?


911 OPERATOR: OK. Stay on the line. Don`t hang it up, OK?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the policeman. How may I help you?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry, I`m not understanding what you`re saying.

SYDNEY SIMPSON: He doesn`t (DELETED) love me or any of his kids!


GRACE: This is a photo of Nicole Brown, battered by O.J. Simpson before her slaughter in her front yard. You also heard the 911 call from his own daughter, Sydney. In answer to Alice in Arizona, obviously, his children are deeply affected.

I`ve gotten to the bottom of one question regarding what I believe to be a sham corporation created by O.J. Simpson, and possibly lawyers, to shield money on his "how to commit murder" book. I have in my hand the documents, the lawsuit filed against Simpson by Goldman. This may be his last stand in trying to get justice. And it states that this corporation named after the middle names of his children, Lorraine Brooke, was created in March 2006. Less than one month later, he started his so-called book project. Coincidence? I don`t think so.

I want to go out to Art Harris, investigative journalist. Is there any suggestion, does anybody believe, Art Harris, that this million dollars is still somewhere in a bank vault? I don`t think so. It`s gone to pay his living expenses, I`m sure.

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s gone, Nancy, and he gets that million dollars regardless of whether a book was published or not. Supposedly, he was going to get $3.5 million. The million is called a "kill fee." He gets that whether he publishes or perishes.

And in this case, once they start taking depositions in related lawsuits and try to get the publisher`s deposition, the depositions and discovery of executives at News Corp., we could have the answer to your question fleshed out, Nancy, and see the exact paper trail of how the money was set up to be paid, how it was paid. And this could give us some real insight into how O.J. Simpson hides money every day he gets paid by somebody.

GRACE: Out to Don in Louisiana. Hi, Don.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Question. If the Goldmans have a judgment against O.J., why can`t they seize ownership interest in this so-called sham company that has the million dollars, given them the direct access to whatever assets this company has?

GRACE: Out to Gloria Allred.

ALLRED: Nancy, by the way, it may not be a sham, but it certainly appears to be a shell corporation. Now, can they seize any assets that it has? Well, the question is, does it have any assets anymore? Because if you`re to believe Mr. Simpson -- that, of course, is always open to question whether he`s telling the truth or not, which he has not on some other occasions. If he`s already spent it, that`s a problem, although I want to point out that if he took any of that money from the book and put it in his home, as he said, even though the home is homesteaded, it is still possible for the court to order that he return that money, if, in fact, it was done fraudulently in order to avoid the judgment, return that money that he put into the home, and then maybe the Goldmans will be able to get it.

GRACE: And Gloria, question. Back to the question out of Louisiana, why they haven`t already seized it. I`m not sure the family knew about this shell corporation until now.

ALLRED: It may be that they didn`t know. You may be right, Nancy, about the corporation. But again, it may be that the corporation does not now have anything in it for -- as an asset, that anything that was given to the corporation is now out of the corporation.

GRACE: Oh, it`s long gone, Gloria. It`s gone.

ALLRED: Yes, gone.



O.J. SIMPSON: Goldmans and then, they got to stop being professional -- professional victims. You know, there`s other people in this world that are suffering from other things. My family suffered. Nicole was the love of my life. I suffered. I didn`t kill them. No matter what anybody wants to say, I didn`t do it.

GOLDMAN: He`s never been punished for a single act of violence in his whole life. He`s never himself paid one single penny toward this judgment, never.


GRACE: Is a million dollars sitting in a shell corporation created by O.J. Simpson named Lorraine Brooke, Incorporated?

To Jane Velez-Mitchell here on the set with me. Where does Simpson live?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He lives in South Miami...

GRACE: Oh, really?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... in a $575,000 home.

GRACE: Let me guess. Is it the same address as the Lorraine Brooke Corporation?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s probably a pretty good guess, Nancy.

GRACE: Where did all the money go? How -- what...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, you can spend money when you really want to, and he had debts. And I`m sure he accumulates debts and then he makes these deals, and you know, he`s got credit card bills -- boom. Taxes, boom.

GRACE: There`s Simpson`s house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s his house, $575,000, three bedrooms.

GRACE: Hey, some shack! OK, where does Judith Regan fit into all of this? Regan was the head of ReganBooks that had brokered the deal for this "how to commit murder" book.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she`s credited with the deal, if you can use that term. She was fired by HarperCollins for allegedly making anti- Semitic remarks during an argument with a HarperCollins attorney. Now, she vehemently denies that through her very famous attorney, Bert Fields (ph), who says she used phrase "cabal," she did not say "Jewish cabal." So that is probably going to go to court, as well, because she is mad.

GRACE: Well, what is the cabal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s been humiliated.

GRACE: What is the cabal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a group of conspirators.

GRACE: Yes, what does that have to do with this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they say that they were out to get her after this flameout with this book.



O.J. SIMPSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER OF WIFE AND FRIEND: I don`t know what happened. I can`t tell you. I understood that this lady, Judith Regan, obviously thought, "Oh, he did it, so he knows how to confess. He`ll just confess."

The writer, when I first met him, she said (INAUDIBLE) I said, "Well, I had nothing to do with that." So they all negotiated and negotiated and negotiated, and they came up with this hook, to make it a hypothetical.

I don`t have any bank accounts in the Bahamas. I don`t have any extra money anywhere, any place. The Goldmans, I don`t have the obligation to make money and take it to the Goldmans. I don`t have those obligations.


GRACE: Well, according to these court documents, you may not have a Bahaman bank account, but you do have a corporation called Lorraine Brook, allegedly created to warehouse Simpson`s money, about a million bucks he got off this deal for the book that never was.

And back out to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, did you notice Simpson refers to this woman, this lady, Judith Regan, like he doesn`t know who Regan is. She is a powerhouse publisher that he sat down with. He had to sit down with her 15, 20 hours, I guess to do this special, TV special. Why does he act like he doesn`t know who she is?

HOWARD: Well, you know, he certainly knows who she is. I mean, he`s probably thrilled to be able to have Judith Regan in his corner. I mean, everyone knows who Judith Regan is, who`s out there in the public.

Why? Why does he pretend that he doesn`t know? This is a man whose defense structure says, "My fantasy truth is the truth." So, really, it`s all show. This is all smoke and mirrors. This is all emperor`s new clothes. He believes it. I mean, he really does.

That`s the piece of this that`s most confusing about this man, about people like this. He really believes that he`s speaking truth. He believes he doesn`t know who Judith Regan is, when, in fact, of course he does and did business with her, as you said.

GRACE: Back out to veteran trial lawyer who has represented O.J. Simpson for many, many years, Yale Galanter. What would the Goldmans have to prove in your mind in order to win this lawsuit, Yale?

GALANTER: I don`t think they can prove anything, Nancy. You know, it just doesn`t rise to the level of a fraudulent transaction.

You know, the whole -- John Burris said at the top of the show there is no duty to notify, and that`s really the issue. I mean, Simpson has an absolute right to work. He`s got a right to support his family. He`s the head of a household. He lives in Florida. Florida has extremely liberal debtor laws, and he hasn`t done anything illegal or against the law.

And, you know, obviously, people like you condemn him, you know, not paying the judgment, but the truth of the matter is if the Goldman have never come to Florida, have never filed garnishment actions, have never domesticated the judgment, and haven`t done any of the things that a judgment creditor would normally do in a situation like this.

GRACE: Well, you know, I don`t think anyone is contesting that Simpson has a right to work. And I`m glad that`s so refreshing of you to mention that he can work. Does he have a job?

GALANTER: Well, you know, he`s a personality.

GRACE: Right. Does he have a job?

GALANTER: I mean, he`s a celebrity. It`s not like he could go to McDonald`s and flip hamburgers.

GRACE: Well, does he have a job? You said -- we`re not trying to infringe on his rights. No. I want Simpson to work.

GALANTER: He does not have a job where he receives a payroll check, but he does card signings, he does personal appearances, and, you know, we`ve discussed all those things through the years.

GRACE: Well, question: If he is making all this money from memorabilia signings, photo signings, would you agree that he was also paid for this book deal, the million dollars?

GALANTER: Oh, he was definitely paid for the book deal.

GRACE: And where is the money now?

GALANTER: The money was used to pay down the mortgage of the house, pay his bills, and pay his taxes.

GRACE: Oh, I thought he said it was all for his kids?

GALANTER: A lot of the money did go to the kids. You know, he`s supporting two children in college. There`s nobody else who`s paying their college bills. There`s nobody else who`s feeding them. There`s nobody else who`s housing them.

You know, when these pundits get on the show and they say, "You know, the kids aren`t doing well," that`s just not true. The kids are doing remarkably well.

GRACE: Did you heart the 911 call from Sydney?


GALANTER: There`s a reason, Nancy, the corporation was named after his two daughters, so that a lot of the money could benefit them. I mean, there`s nobody else to support them.

GRACE: A lot of the money could benefit them. Yale, did you hear Sydney`s phone call to the police, the 911 call? How could you possibly say they`re doing well?

GALANTER: Nancy, that phone call is three years old. That phone call was made when she was 17 years old. She`s now 21.

GRACE: So? So what does that have to do with anything?

GALANTER: The phone call says, "My daddy doesn`t love me." It doesn`t accuse him of doing anything.


GRACE: I don`t know, Yale. I never had to call 911 on my dad.

GALANTER: Nancy, come on. You`re playing a phone call that`s three years old. Nothing ever happened in that phone call. She was very frustrated because that phone call was made the night before he was going into surgery, and she was afraid she was going lose her father.

GRACE: Right, right. Question: Do you know the last time he visited her at school?

GALANTER: The last time he visited her at school?


GALANTER: I do not know the answer to that, but I can tell you she was home for the Christmas holidays.

GRACE: It is Christmas right now. We haven`t even had the Christmas holidays.

GALANTER: No -- trust me, it`s my holiday, it`s his holiday, and Sydney is home with her dad.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I was checking out your dates and this -- what I believe to be a shell corporation -- was created at the same time the book was started.

GALANTER: Nancy, your belief and your assertion that it`s a shell corporation...

GRACE: I`m looking at the document right here.

GALANTER: ... is irrelevant. There is nothing illegal about setting up corporations to do projects.


GALANTER: There is nothing wrong with that.

GRACE: All righty. Let`s go out to the lines. Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.

CALLER: Hi, good evening, Nancy. My question I think he just maybe answered. Is there anyone checking that O.J. is paying the taxes on this dummy corporation with the IRS?

GRACE: I doubt that they have yet, because the corporation isn`t even one year old, but I believe, after this lawsuit, there`ll be some checking done, Kathy. You`re absolutely correct on that.

Out to April in Missouri. Hi, April.

CALLER: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, April.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Can a judge somewhere make himself, some of his assets to pay these people?

GRACE: You know, excellent question. Gloria Allred, do you remember when the sheriffs were coming to Simpson`s home, and somebody tipped him off within the sheriff`s department allegedly, and they hid a lot of assets, like the Heisman trophy and a lot of other memorabilia?

ALLRED: I think they did obtain those, yes. And, by the way, can I just say, Nancy, I don`t agree that the question really is, does he have a duty to tell the Goldmans when he`s working? That`s not the issue.

The issue is -- can he, if it can be proven, fraudulently avoid paying a judgment that was obtained in a court of law against him? And that really is the proper question to ask. And if he used a corporation to do that, to attempt to defraud creditors, then it may be that the Goldman estate can prevail.

GRACE: Jane, you wanted to add regarding Sydney, I think?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, what struck me is the way she repeated the pattern, this 911 call, just like her mother did. And what I`ve learned in covering crimes is that families repeat dysfunctional patterns to get out their truth.

Imagine the big elephant in the room in that family, where apparently they never discussed the murders. These kids have to walk around with this huge issue that is never addressed. So how do you express that? What way do you get it out? I see Sydney making that phone call as a way to express her mother`s unspoken truth, by calling 911, a way of getting the reality out there in some way, shape or form.

GRACE: Out to Harold Copus, former FBI agent and now private investigator. Harold, it`s great to see you again. You know, I think in all of the hoopla surrounding Simpson`s book, how to commit murder manual, a lot of people have forgotten the murder victims. I have not forgotten the brutality of that crime scene.

HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, it was horrible, if you recall. Miss Simpson`s neck was almost severed. Ron Goldman was stabbed at least 22 times. The police have said that`s one of the bloodiest crime scenes they have seen.

This was not just a simple, you know, robbery and someone got shot. This was very, very brutal.

GRACE: As I recall, the slice to Nicole Brown`s neck was so deep it penetrated her entire neck and actually nicked the inside of the neck bone.

COPUS: Oh, that`s correct. It almost severed her head.

GRACE: And her black dress that she had on was totally soaked, literally drenched in blood.

COPUS: This was a very brutal murder of two people, and, you know, there`s nothing more that can be said about it. It`s been covered extensively, but people can`t forget that or shouldn`t forget how brutal this was.

GRACE: Sometimes I believe they do. They`re all caught up in the Web site, and the book, and the sit-down interview, and the stealing the cable, and just the fascination with him as he goes through life, seemingly escaping Lady Justice.

Let`s take a quick break. Tonight, a Long Island school bus driver back at the wheel with his Santa hat. Bus driver Kenneth Mott ordered to stop wearing Santa`s hat after someone complained the hat bothered a particular child because he didn`t believe in Santa. A change of heart by supervisors at the bus company, when all of the other parents learned Mott would be fired if he wore the Santa hat. Merry Christmas, Long Island.



GRACE: Tonight, a Court TV special at 9:30 sharp Eastern, "Washed Away." Court TV investigates the mysterious disappearance of a young couple on a romantic getaway on Lake Huron. And right here on Headline Prime, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" reveals the most controversial celebrity of the year, 11:00 p.m. Eastern.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The scenario he describes is one where he goes over to Nicole`s house only to scare her, he writes. Once he gets there, he says Ron Goldman comes to the gate, and O.J. is standing there with his accomplice, and the accomplice is holding the knife. O.J. writes that he got angry at Goldman and thought Goldman was having an affair with Nicole, and basically then talks about how the rest is a blur.


GRACE: O.J. Simpson creating the Lorraine Brook Corporation, now under fire by Fred Goldman, trying to get some of that money made off Simpson`s how to commit murder manual.

Out to Art Harris, I know the book was stopped, the TV interview was called off. Question: How long until some of these books surface? How many are floating around out there and why?

HARRIS: Nancy, there`s a warehouse of them, and supposedly the one that was offered on eBay for $2,000 was -- it was yanked off, maybe shredded. But it`s just a matter of time; you can bet on that. My sources are telling me that there are other entities that are interested in publishing this. How they obtain those rights to do so will be fascinating to watch.

GRACE: What do you mean how they obtain the rights to do so?

HARRIS: Well, they have to somehow get the rights from Judith Reagan, from Harper-Collins, or News Corp. Somehow they have to get the ability to get this piece of work and some, you know, conveyance or contract, and I don`t know how that will happen or if it may leak out piecemeal. Maybe somebody will get a copy and paraphrase it.

GRACE: To Gloria Allred, has any of the civil judgment ever been paid by Simpson?

ALLRED: As far as I know, no, little or nothing has been paid. But you know what? It`s so ridiculous for Simpson to contend, if he does still contend, that he did any of this for his children, because if, in fact, he had let the money go to the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson, the beneficiaries of that estate and the only beneficiaries of that estate are his children. So if he attempted to avoid paying that judgment against him, he was avoiding paying his own children, and that is just wrong.

GRACE: Out to Emma in Wisconsin. Hi, Emma.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Love you, love your show. I think you`re awesome.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: My question is: Why do the courts even award victims cash if they`re not going make sure that they get their money?

GRACE: Out to Renee Rockwell and John Burris, I`ve often wondered the same things myself. You know, in a criminal case, Renee, when the court orders restitution, it`s up to the probation department or the courts, the criminal courts, to make sure that that restitution is paid back.

In a civil case, the victims have to take it upon themselves to basically, in this case, follow Simpson around and grab the money when he`s leaving a memorabilia signing. It doesn`t seem right.

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, that`s just the reality of it. He had his trial. He was acquitted. He`s innocent.

GRACE: Is that all you can say?


GRACE: I`m asking you how civil plaintiffs get the money. I know Simpson was acquitted. I remember the moment well.

ROCKWELL: He`s got a judgment, and I had a bet with you, and I told you he would walk, didn`t we?


ROCKWELL: But the judgment is worth the paper that it`s written on.

GRACE: I lost that dollar bill.

BURRIS: Well, you know, actually you could get the judgment enforced. You just have to be diligent, and you can bring this person into court. And you could say, "Look, let`s have a declaration of what your assets are, where your monies are," and you can follow that process.

There is a procedure for this to occur. This is not new stuff that is happening just for O.J. Simpson. There is a process to follow.

GRACE: I know. I know there is a process, and I know that this judgment has been filed at the courthouse, since it was supposed to have been done, but in order to get cash money, John -- you guys take off your defense hat just a moment -- in order to get cash money, because Simpson is paid often at these memorabilia signings with case, and a lot of it. They walk out, allegedly, with sacks of cash.

Now, unless you`ve got a sheriff standing right there with an order to get that money, how else, John, can they get the money, if it`s in cash?

BURRIS: I`m not in the collection business. I do know that`s a process to follow, that is with the sheriff. First you got to have some notice.

Now, the problem is he`s not going give you notice where he`s going to be. But, you know, it`s up to you to be diligent to find out as best you can. You could have a situation. You bring him into court. You find out what his assets are then. You can make decisions about and ask questions about, what is your next deal? What is your next place going to be? And you could do this on an ongoing basis every 30 days.

You could find out when things are going to occur, but you have to go out and invest in money. You`ve got to go to Florida. You`ve got to bring him into court, and you can do that.

GRACE: You know what?

BURRIS: But you`ve got to do it on an ongoing basis in order to make sure you are there and soon enough, when these decisions are being made. Otherwise, you`re at the mercy of find out later, like in the news, like in this particular case here.

ROCKWELL: And, Nancy, not to interrupt John, but if O.J. is put on the stand and asked these questions, "Where`s your money? Where`s your bank account?" And if he lies, then he goes to jail for perjury. And I think that this is what the motive is behind this lawsuit.

GRACE: How many people do you know of that have been put in jail for perjury?

ROCKWELL: Not many, but I can tell you that Fred Goldman would have it done.

BURRIS: There are a few. There are a few.

GRACE: Maybe three, and it was all politically based. Out to Jane Velez-Mitchell...


BURRIS: ... all politically based?

GRACE: No, no, no, the few people that go to jail for perjury? Come on. That`s a tough one. You have to be like Susan McDougal on contempt of grand jury to get put in jail for contempt or perjury, all right? That`s very...

BURRIS: There`s enough people out there who dislike O.J. Simpson that it could be of a political nature, if you want to prosecute for perjury.

GRACE: Oh, good lord, please. I don`t want to put ideas in your head, Burris. You don`t need any help, OK?

Back to you, Jane Velez-Mitchell. It seems like such an unnecessary burden to place on crime victims that they then have to follow, in this case the perpetrator, around to try to attach the money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and it`s almost like a taunting. Awarding that much money, and then they never get to see a cent, and this happens all the time. Is it really justice when is you say, "Hey, we`re awarding you millions and millions of dollars (INAUDIBLE) never see a red penny of it."


GRACE: Well, everybody, it`s going to be a very merry Christmas for me here in New York. And I`m here to pay a little visit on some very bad elves, the control room.

Let`s see. Let`s start over here with Rosie, AKA, evil people. Ellie, please, should she get candy or should she get a lump of coal? I vote for lump of coal. Thank you, Dean, merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah, OK? Love you. This is Brent, director, candy cane, lump of coal, Dean? Ellie, coal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two lump of coals.

GRACE: Enjoy, enjoy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? They look too happy. Lump of coal. Oh, look at the back deck. Who is it that cuts off all the callers? I`d like to know who it is back here. Oh, here`s Courtney. Candy cane, lump of coal?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need a candy cane for Courtney.

GRACE: OK, we`ve got to get a candy cane. You know what? No. Lump of coal. And here`s baby Ramon. He`s the one that cuts off all the callers. Enjoy. Happy Hanukkah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, guys. Happy holidays.

GRACE: Happy Hanukkah.

This is Ben. Merry Christmas. Lump of coal. Oh, this is Norm, who carries the show. He filmed our Biloxi special, lot of coal for you. Thank you, Dean and Ellie.

And here are the girls that make the whole show, Liz, Ren (ph). From all of us here, merry, merry Christmas, and happy Hanukkah. I think I`ll continue going to the back -- oh, yes. We don`t want to leave them out. I need a double coal for them. They all get coal.

Coal for everybody! Lumps of coal! Merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah from all of us here in New York. Good night, friends.