Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Devlin Charged With 71 More Counts in Missouri Kidnappings

Aired February 05, 2007 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Formal indictment, 71 separate counts, handed down today just hours ago by a Missouri grand jury in the investigation of 41-year-old Michael Devlin, Devlin prime suspect in the kidnap of two little Missouri boys, now facing felony charges, kidnapping and multiple counts of forcible sodomy. Tonight, as police work overtime, the question looms: Are there other victims?
And tonight, breaking news in the case of cannibal killer Jeffrey Dahmer. Tonight, new evidence that Dahmer may be linked to the infamous child kidnap still unsolved, the Adam Walsh mystery. Is there finally a break in the disappearance of 6-year-old Adam?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As the victims` families faced the horror that was Jeffrey Dahmer, we now know a subplot was unfolding that police tried to keep from the headlines. Neil Furtel (ph) was the FBI agent assigned to the Dahmer case. Furtel says from the day of Dahmer`s arrest, many in law enforcement wondered if Milwaukee`s most notorious killer could be responsible for a high-profile case long gone cold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember this 6-year-old child. I can`t conceive of it!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the papers came in, I saw this picture of Dahmer and I started freaking out. I said, This is the guy. This is the guy I saw in the mall!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Around the same time, another man was shocked to see Dahmer`s picture in the paper. Bill Bowen (ph) says he`d just pulled into the Sears parking lot that day in `81 when he witnessed an explosive scene.

BILL BOWEN, WITNESS: There was a man holding a little boy by one arm up in the air, and the boy was struggling. And the little boy was saying, I don`t want to go. I`m not going.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bowen says the man threw the boy into a blue van and screeched off.


GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, to Missouri.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We filed a total of 71 counts against Michael Devlin. The first 18 counts involve one count of kidnapping and 17 counts of forcible sodomy relating to an abduction that occurred in January of this year. The remainder of the counts include a kidnapping and forcible sodomy counts for an abduction that occurred in 2001, each involving a separate victim. Those were the only two victims. As I said, there are a total of 71 counts. Each is a felony, each carrying up to life in prison.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this trial were held today, it would be a not guilty verdict because there is no evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won`t talk about any evidence at all, other than what is contained in the charges that were filed and the probable cause statement that went along with that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conjecture, speculation, hearsay. That`s not evidence. It`s not admissible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Devlin acknowledged committing these acts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s so many missing children. I`m afraid to say. I`ve cried this whole day because I`m scared.


GRACE: Tonight, we go live for the latest in this formal indictment of the 41-year-old pizza parlor manager, Michael Devlin. Out to 550 KTRS radio reporter Melanie Streeper. What`s the latest, Melanie?

MELANIE STREEPER, 550 KTRS RADIO: Well, Nancy, this afternoon, St. Louis County prosecutor Bob McCullough (ph) holding a news conference, announcing 71 new charges against the 41-year-old suspect, Michael Devlin - - one count of kidnapping, one count of child kidnapping, and 69 counts of forcible sodomy.

GRACE: Tonight, we are no longer referring to the names of the alleged victims in this case. They are now formally under indictment as sex crimes victims. As we all know by now, Michael Devlin, the 41-year- old, has been behind bars in the abduction of an 11-year-old and a 13-year- old boy four years apart, allegedly holding one of them in his own apartment for four long years.

This is what the prosecution had to say today.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We filed a total of 71 counts against Michael Devlin. The first 18 counts involve one count of kidnapping and 17 counts of forcible sodomy relating to an abduction that occurred in January of this year. The remainder of the counts include a kidnapping and forcible sodomy counts for an abduction that occurred in 2001. Each involving a separate victim. Those were the only two victims. As I said, there are a total of 71 counts. Each is a felony, each carrying up to life in prison.

Of the 71 counts, two are kidnapping, one involving each victim. They`re all pertaining to restraining the victims in St. Louis County. They are not the same as the kidnapping charges from Washington and Franklin County. Those are separate and distinct charges.

Having examined all the evidence, including interviews with the individuals involved in this, to take the -- into account the timeframe that was involved and the activity, or the action that was described, the acts that were described, and describing them, if you will, to a period of time in the case of the four-year time period we have in there, then it was -- there are clearly more allegations at the beginning of that period than there were later in the timeframe. But they`re spread over a period of time, in the one case four days, and the other case four years.


GRACE: That`s right, formal indictment handed down today by a Missouri grand jury in the case of Michael Devlin, 71 separate counts. Only two of them are kidnapping. The rest are sodomy charges.

Let`s go straight back out to Melanie Streeper with 550 KTRS radio. Take a look at this map, if you can, Melanie. Has there been any connection between Devlin and several other missing children in the area?

STREEPER: Well, Nancy, as we mentioned before, a task force was formed initially after Devlin`s arrest. Initially, there was three cold cases that they were looking into. Now there are actually six. I can tell you that five of those are in Missouri and Illinois, and one of them is as far away as Minnesota.

GRACE: You said that there are six children now possibly linked, or at least being investigated for a link to Devlin?

STREEPER: That is correct. There are four boys and two girls. Two of them, I believe, were murdered. The rest of them just cold cases, missing child cases.

GRACE: Joining us right now is the Devlin investigation task force member, Sergeant Al Nothum. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. What`s your reaction to the indictment handed down just a few hours ago?

SGT. AL NOTHUM, PIO TASK FORCE: Well, I don`t really have a reaction to that. It didn`t surprise me, but I really can`t comment on that. That`s up to the prosecuting attorney and his people. And so we`re just standing by and watching, just like you.

GRACE: That`s good to know.

Out to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop and former fed with the FBI. You know, when I would work a case long and hard, sometimes for years, the indictment is actually, Mike Brooks, the formal culmination of a lot of work. You take your work, your investigation to a grand jury.

Now, very typically, when children sex victims are involved, those children are not required to testify at the grand jury. A detective who took their statements will come before the grand jury. But that grand jury indictment is somewhere between 20 and 40 citizens hearing the evidence and handing down a formal charge. An indictment is a formal charge alerting you that you`re going to trial. In my mind, Mike, that is the culmination of a lot of hard work.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: It`s a lot of hard work, Nancy. I mean, this task force has been working - - I tell you what. They`ve done -- to me, they`ve done a hell of a job.

And it`s not over yet. We just saw last week they did a search warrant on an old place that Devlin used to stay in. So they`re still getting some leads and they`re following these leads up. Their work is still not over with. And there`s a possibility we could see other charges in other cases. But as of right now, my sources are telling me that they have not been able to make any link, but they`re not giving up at all right now, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Carolyn in Pennsylvania. Hi, Carolyn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy Grace. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to ask you a question. Has Michael Devlin`s parents spoken to Kevin (SIC) Hornbeck`s parents?

GRACE: OK, have Devlin`s parents -- I believe you mean Shawn Hornbeck. Melanie Streeper, has there been any communication, or have Devlin`s parents or family visited him at the jail yet?

STREEPER: Well, As far as we know, Nancy, there has been no communication between the parents of the victim and the parents of the suspect. And in fact, Michael Devlin`s parents, they have not spoken out at all. We don`t know what they look like. They have really been in seclusion ever since this case broke.

GRACE: And to you, Jean Casarez, Court TV`s news correspondent. Has there been a formal not guilty plea entered?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Yes, there has, not in relation to the charges that were filed today because this is breaking news, 71 brand-new charges. But in the other charges, which were kidnapping, of that nature, yes, not guilty has been entered by the defendant.

GRACE: Let`s go back out to a very special guest that you met recently. This is Arlin Henderson`s mother. And in case you don`t know who Arlin Henderson is, Elizabeth, let`s show the viewers a picture of this little boy. He is now been missing for many years. His mom is with us tonight, Debra Henderson-Griffith. Ma`am, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: What is your reaction to this breaking news regarding the formal indictment handed down?

HENDERSON-GRIFFITH: My reaction to it? I`m glad that they`re still working the case. I`m glad that there`s going to be justice for the children that were taken and that were held for four years, or even four days. That was too long to be away from their parents.

GRACE: Debra, how long has Arlin been missing now?

HENDERSON-GRIFFITH: For 16, almost 17 years.

GRACE: I know that you have seen age progression photos of him.


GRACE: But as you continue to study this case regarding Michael Devlin, do you believe Devlin was involved?

HENDERSON-GRIFFITH: I couldn`t really say. I mean, I`ve gone over the -- I`ve been following the case with Michael Devlin. And all of the cases are similar. But I won`t -- I really couldn`t say. I haven`t got, you know, that information.

GRACE: Why do you say they`re similar?

HENDERSON-GRIFFITH: Well, the boys were all around the same age. They were all slightly built, you know, not really big boys. They looked, you know, young. They were all out riding their bikes. They were also in a rural area. Just very, very similar cases.

GRACE: Very, very similar.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the California jurisdiction, Rikki Klieman, defense attorney and author, and Paul Batista out of the New York jurisdiction.

To you, Rikki. Let`s show the viewers this. I`ve got the charges in my hand. And at first, I thought there was a typo because it just goes all the way down the page, forcible sodomy. I thought that somebody had pushed "enter" and they typed it 20 or 30 times. No. Each is a separate count -- can you get a shot of this, please -- of forcible sodomy on these young victims, allegedly. We`re calling them BO and SH, one 11 at the time of the kidnap, one 13.

It also gives the probable cause, Rikki. The probable cause states that both victims have given statements as to what happened to them. And the defendant has given a confession. So once we know we`ve got that, what`s the not guilty all about?

RIKKI KLIEMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the not guilty plea, Nancy, as you know, and I think many of your viewers know, is something that must be done at the time of an arraignment or being apprised of the charges. It doesn`t necessarily mean that at a later point in time that he wouldn`t plead guilty to these charges. And if I were representing him, I would be doing everything in my power to make sure that at the end of the day, that he wound up serving his time in a mental institution, rather than a prison, because as I look at this case today, those are the only choices.

GRACE: Hold on. Rikki, do you have any shred of evidence to suggest he actually has a mental illness?

KLIEMAN: No, I have none to suggest that he has a mental illness. In fact, everything that we know is that he led a rather good life, and with good adoptive parents who were very loving toward him, as were his siblings. But certainly, something in his life went wrong, and any lawyer worth his or her salt is going to have him thoroughly evaluated.

GRACE: Who`s my caller, Liz? Sonja in Wisconsin. Hi, Sonja.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi. I just wondered if Michael Devlin has had a lie detector on the other boys that are missing?

GRACE: Interesting. I highly, highly doubt it. Sergeant Al Nothum is with us, on the Devlin investigation task force. Has he consented to a polygraph, Sergeant?

NOTHUM: I don`t believe he has, not in reference to these other cases. And this is still an ongoing investigation, as far as we`re concerned, with these other missing kids. So I don`t believe that he has, but I don`t know for sure. I believe that, you know, he was informed by his attorneys not to speak, and so I`m going off that basis.

GRACE: Back out to the lawyers. To you, Paul Batista. It would be over his defense attorney`s cold dead, body to allow his client to take a poly. If you take a poly at this juncture, I think you two will agree with me, it`s usually stipulated, agreed by both parties that the poly will come into evidence. Paul Batista?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s absolutely correct, Nancy. That would come into evidence. And you know, I do have to disagree just a little bit with something that I`ve heard. He is a blabbermouth. Let`s not forget the fact that somehow a "New York Post" reporter within a day of his arrest managed to get into a maximum security prison and have him, in effect, admit to the crimes. So a polygraph test might seem to logically follow from this man who seems to want to get the story of his horrendous activity out into the public domain.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot right there of Devlin. He appeared in court via video. The security risk at this juncture incredible, transporting him back and forth.

You know, Rikki, you were talking about the various motions you would file if you were the defense attorney. So far, I`ve got a list that I`ve added up. They want to move Devlin from the Franklin County jail. And this is in light of breaking news tonight, the release of a 71-count formal indictment against the pizza parlor manager in connection with the alleged kidnap of two young boys. There are multiple counts, nearly 70 counts, of forcible sodomy on the two boys. They want to move him from Franklin County jail to the St. Louis jail.

They want to gag the reporter, the "New York Post" reporter that Paul Batista was just describing, so she can`t speak. It`s not her fault he yakked. They want to clarify the visiting rules. In other words, no more "New York Post" reporters. They want plain clothes at all appearances. Not going to happen, unless there`s a jury. And they want a transcript of the grand jury proceedings. What about it, Rikki?

KLIEMAN: Well, I think what they`re trying to do, first of all, I assume with this jail move, is to get him to a safe and secure facility. I can`t imagine any another reason for the move. And he does need...


GRACE: ... convenience, Rikki?


KLIEMAN: Well, it could used for the lawyer. It`s absolutely convenience for the lawyers. But one of the most important things here, Nancy, I would think, for the lawyers, is to keep him safe. I mean, I think that`s the biggest danger. We know if he goes into population, that`s it for him.

GRACE: Well, to my knowledge, there haven`t been jailhouse threats or any jailhouse incidents on him. I think this move from Franklin County to St. Louis is all about the convenience of the lawyers. You know, Rikki, they don`t want to drive too far to get to their client to talk about these 71 counts of sodomy and kidnap.

Quick break. To tonight`s "Case Alert." Help us, please help us find 78-year-old Bill Mayle of Melbourne, Florida. He was visiting his family for the holidays in Ohio. Take a look, last seen Saturday traveling Cleveland to Orlando via Baltimore. He changed planes in Baltimore. His baggage arrived, but he did not. Mayle suffers from Alzheimer`s. He is 5- foot-7, 140 pounds, last wearing a gold wedding band, silver eyeglasses and a silver watch. Please take a look. Help us. If you have information, call 321-984-7905.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We filed a total of 71 counts against Michael Devlin. Of the 71 counts, 2 are kidnapping, 1 involving each victim. Having gathered all the information, reviewing that information, including the results of interviews with victims and Devlin, that`s the basis of the charges that we have filed.


GRACE: Breaking news tonight. A Missouri grand jury has handed down a 71-count -- that`s 71 separate charges, all felonies -- against this 41- year-old pizza parlor manager, Michael Devlin. It was a miracle when two little boys, kidnapped, were found in his apartment, according to police. Now, not guilty pleas entered and the formal indictment handed down.

Let`s go out to the lines. Kay in Ohio. Hi, Kay.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I just wanted to know if, at this point, are they corroborating -- I mean, are the boys talking, and -- and -- I can`t even think of what I want to say here -- you know, are they able to talk to the boys, or are they leaving them out of it and just investigating?

GRACE: That`s an excellent question, Kay. I was wondering that myself. But when I got this copy of formal charges, it also has on there, Kay in Ohio, the probable cause for arrest and the probable cause for the indictment. And it states very clearly that both young boys have spoken to police. And can you imagine the interview, the questioning that resulted in a 71-count of sodomy?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of the 71 counts, 2 are kidnapping, one involving each victim. They all pertain to restraining the victims in St. Louis county. They are not the same as the kidnapping charges from Washington and Franklin Counties. Those are separate and distinct charges.


GRACE: This criminal complaint handed down today in the Michael Devlin case. Let`s go back out to Melanie Streeper with 550 KTRS. Melanie, has any advance been made in connecting with Devlin to other missing children or murdered children?

STREEPER: Well, any lead that comes up, certainly, the task force is looking into it. But right now, Nancy, they have not been able to connect the dots in these six missing children cases, or six unsolved child cases.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Mark in Canada. Hi, Mark.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, there, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I`d like to know, does this Michael Devlin have a military record, or is he associated -- or was he ever associated with any social organizations?

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Melanie Streeper? What do we know about this guy?

STREEPER: Well, as far as I know, he does not have a military record. We do know that in his leisure time, he did like to hunt. He did like to fish. He had hunting licenses in Missouri, fishing licenses in Missouri. So I guess he liked to spend a lot of time outdoors.

GRACE: Out to you, Jean Casarez. Regarding this criminal complaint, we don`t have all the charges in it. Do we expect more?

CASAREZ: Well, all 71 counts have been filed, yes, those charges. And I think what`s interesting is the alleged victim that was abducted in 2002 has many more, 53 of the counts, the young man abducted allegedly in January of this year 18 of the counts.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I followed Shawn`s case since day one. And then, after Dalton was murdered, I continued to follow Shawn`s case, because I always wondered if there could be a connection, you know, since he was a boy and similar in size, different age, but Dalton was 4`10" and 85 pounds. He was big for his age, and, you know, being one state away, you know? And that was the closest case I could find.

He was back in the house. He wasn`t going to go, you know? The van didn`t show up. My daughter had called the church from her girlfriend`s house, and they knew to pick Dalton up there. And we were told the van was still coming at quarter after 7:00. And my daughter walked in, and the first thing she said is, "Where`s Dalton?" And we called the church. We thought maybe that they had picked him up and forgot to pick up the other kids. And they said, no, we don`t have him. And we started searching right then.


GRACE: Breaking news today, the first time authorities formally charge Michael Devlin with sex charges. As you now know, two counts kidnapping, and nearly 70 counts of forcible sodomy on young boys. The pizza parlor manager was known to have held a job for many, many years. No disturbances with the law whatsoever.

All the while, a task force now formed, trying to investigate whether this man is connected to other missing and even murdered children. Let`s go back out to the lines. Chris in Delaware, hi, Chris.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love you and your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: I wanted to ask you, out of the 71 counts, there`s two that are abduction. Do these boys have to go through 69 situations where this actually occurred?

GRACE: Apparently, yes. Jean, what have you learned from looking at the charges?

JEAN CASAREZ, COURT TV: Each young man, there is one count of kidnapping for Michael Devlin, in regard to each one of these young men. And that means restraining them, not allowing them to be free and to leave. And then you have all the sodomy charges hinged onto that, so, yes.

GRACE: Out to you, Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Chris really brings up an excellent point, trying to work with child witnesses and going through nearly 70 counts of forcible sodomy, being anal or oral sex.

I notice that, at least in this complaint, we don`t have specific dates. You have general dates, like between this date and this date this occurred. That`s very typical with child witnesses who can`t tell you the day of the month or the year sometimes even, Robi.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, and because they`re traumatized and they`re not thinking in terms of date. And this can have a horrible impact, not only on their psyche, but in terms of how they question their own sexuality.

If their first sexual experience is with an adult man and they actually feel pleasure this can create a lot of confusion. So I think what matters most here is that they work with somebody who`s a specialist so they`re not re=traumatized by the trial process or the questioning process.

GRACE: You know, another thing I learned by reading all this material, Robi, as it is unfolding today, it`s an incredible day in the investigation of Michael Devlin, and the miraculous discovery of two little boys, an 11-year-old and 13-year-old, found alive in his apartment, one having been gone four years, is that Michael Devlin actually went on an extended trip to a wedding in Arizona.

We notice he did not travel with the other people, nor stay in the same hotel. Many people are wondering why the elder of the two little boys didn`t escape, especially if he was on a road trip with Devlin.

LUDWIG: Well, it sounds like somehow he was convinced, through the trauma process, that he wasn`t allowed to get away. And in some cases, these pedophiles almost act like a pseudo-parent. So we don`t know what was going on between the two of them.

But, obviously, he did not feel that he had the freedom to get away, or he somehow had the idea, if he did get away, someone would be endangered. But this is something everybody really would like to understand a lot better: Why didn`t he escape when he seemed to have an opportunity?

GRACE: Well, even when Devlin was at work, we know that one of the young boys was free to roam the playgrounds in the area there at the apartment complex.

And to you, Mike Brooks, I liken it very much to battered women. They know they can physically leave. But, look, I mean, did you look at these criminal charges, 71 counts of forcible sodomy on a little boy? These two kids have been incredibly traumatized, if we believe these charges. And when an adult woman can`t bring herself to leave, why would you expect an 11-year-old boy to be able to leave?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. The psychological impact on this age has just got to be amazing.

And, you know, one of the things that I was noticing, too, Nancy, they talked about the dates of the different charges. For WBO and SH, the one count of kidnapping and the 17 counts of forcible sodomy on WBO occurred between January 8th, the day he was taken, 2007, and January 12th. Now, on SH, the one count of kidnapping and the 52 counts of forcible sodomy, they say in the indictment it took place between October 6, 2002, the day he was taken, and November 30, 2002.

Now, I`m wondering if there are going to be any more charges once they unfold this case a little more on the other years.

GRACE: Well, if you`ve got what I`ve got, not all of the dates on all of these 71 charges are revealed.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: So it could extend. I`ve thought about it a lot, Mike Brooks, just like you did. One of the first things I noticed, that the dates on one of the victims seemed extremely short for that many counts of sodomy. And I`m wondering if this guy, if, in fact, he is guilty, didn`t bring other children into the home that were younger, or whether we`re going to find out more on those dates regarding the indictment.

BROOKS: And also, Nancy, you know, maybe he was not acting alone. That`s also another possibility here.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Tracey in Missouri, hi, Tracey.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: I was wondering, if and when are they going to file federal charges?

GRACE: I don`t know. Melanie Streeper, do you think felony federal charges will go down?

MELANIE STREEPER, KTRS RADIO: Well, we have been hearing that federal charges could go down. And like you just said about the possibility of Shawn being removed from the state of Missouri, taken to Arizona, that is certainly a possibility. But right now, no word on if or when those federal charges could go down.

GRACE: To you, Dr. Warner Spitz, medical examiner joining us out of Michigan, Dr. Spitz, the reality is, when you`re trying to prove a sodomy case, the likelihood of any DNA from anal or oral sodomy is very, very low. However, I saw them bringing a bed, a bed stand, tons of evidence out of the apartment. DNA might be there, Dr. Spitz.

WARNER SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Sure. There may be DNA on clothes that either the boys were wearing at the time or that belonged to the suspect, which show the DNA from the boys.

GRACE: There could very well be forensic evidence in this case. It is unfolding as we speak, that investigative task force, looking into possible other victims of Devlin, working 24/7.

When we come back, did serial cannibal killer Jeff Dahmer mastermind the kidnap and murder of 6-year-old Florida boy Adam Walsh?



BILL BOWEN, WITNESS: That Sunday in 1991, when a picture of Dahmer came out, it hit me like a baseball bat. There was a man holding a little boy by one arm up in the air. That boy was struggling, and the little boy was saying, "I don`t want to go. I`m not going."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m mad. This is how you act when you are out of control. I don`t want to ever see my mother have to go through this again. Never, Jeffrey! Jeffrey, I hate you (bleep)! I hate you! This is out of control! (INAUDIBLE)


GRACE: That from our affiliate WISN. Welcome back. Believe it or not, there appears to be a connection of sorts between cannibal killer Jeffrey Dahmer and a long-unsolved murder mystery of a 6-year-old boy, Adam Walsh. I`m sure you know that name, Walsh. This is the son of John Walsh, victims` rights crusader. His son fell prey to a killer many, many years ago. That case still unsolved.

Out to Arthur Jay Harris. He wrote the article "Who Killed Adam Walsh?" for the "Daily Business Review." Arthur, how much stock do you put into a connection between Dahmer and Adam Walsh?

ARTHUR JAY HARRIS, FREELANCE WRITER: I put a lot of stock in it. There`s a tremendous amount of evidence, and suggestion, and witness statements, and backup material that suggest that, in fact, Jeffrey Dahmer did kill Adam Walsh, as awful as that sounds.

GRACE: What is the strongest evidence, Arthur?

HARRIS: Well, to begin with, that Jeffrey Dahmer was here. It wasn`t well known, but he was here when Adam Walsh was taken and murdered.

GRACE: In Florida.

HARRIS: Jeffrey Dahmer, of course -- 10 years after that, in 1991 -- was found with 11 severed heads in his apartment in Milwaukee. The only remains of Adam`s that was found was a severed head. Jeffrey Dahmer had killed and severed a head in 1978. That was, according to him, his first murder.

And then that`s, first of all, just a very unusual thing that, you know, severed heads...


GRACE: Arthur, you`re right. That is a highly unusual mode of murder or dismemberment. It is very, very rare. With me, Arthur -- author Arthur Jay Harris, who wrote the article "Who Killed Adam Walsh?" So you`re saying that Dahmer was in the Florida area where Adam Walsh went missing. I know that Dahmer says he did not have a vehicle at that time, but didn`t he work for a sub sandwich shop that delivered sandwiches and pizzas, and they had vans?

HARRIS: Well, here`s the thing. Dahmer has admitted that he had worked for a sub sandwich shop. His father knew that at the time. And if the Hollywood police had done what I did, which was to go to the Dade County Public Library and look up on microfilm the phone book for 1981, they would have seen the listing for Sunshine Sub and then the address and phone number, and that`s to Sunshine Sub.

It said pizza. Dahmer didn`t say anything about pizza. Pizza, of course, suggests delivery. Delivery means vehicles. And I learned and found from eight people that one of the delivery vehicles that was available to employees, and it would disappear very easily and often, was, in fact, a blue van, and a blue van was exactly what the witness at the mall, and the first to come forward, a 10-year-old, said they had seen a man throw a child, they believed was Adam, into a blue van.

Police around the entire state -- and it`s a big state -- were stopping every blue van that they saw. And then I found another witness that -- again, in the file -- this was nothing -- no surprise to Hollywood police -- who had said the same thing, that he saw a man who he said was Dahmer throw a child he believed was Adam into a blue van. This is highly suggestive.

GRACE: We`re talking about the Hollywood, Florida, area. Out to Ann Schwartz, spokesperson with the Milwaukee Police Department. She was the first reporter inside Dahmer`s home following his arrest.

It`s great to have you with us. How long have you been hearing about a Jeff Dahmer-Adam Walsh connection?

ANNE SCHWARTZ, MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, you know, Nancy -- first of all, thank you for having me come here to provide a little bit of background on what I learned about Jeffrey Dahmer in those early days.

What I can tell you is that there was talk of the Walsh case very early on, because when Milwaukee police were receiving all kinds of calls - - you know, once this story became national news, became international news, calls were coming in from all over the country, all over the world of people who had open cases of homicide that wanted to find out if this serial killer was responsible for those homicides.

And my understanding is, is that the Hollywood, Florida, police were one of those phone calls. But Dahmer denied specifically killing Adam Walsh.

GRACE: Ann, please, he denied killing Adam Walsh? This guy is a cannibal killer.

SCHWARTZ: I understand.

Why would we listen to anything he said?

SCHWARTZ: Sure. You know, and that`s obviously the same thing that everybody`s thinking, when they hear them say, yes, of course Dahmer denied it. But the information that I came just to provide was to tell you a little bit about those early days and Dahmer`s interaction with the police and, you know, just to add to the discussion this evening.

And that is that Dahmer was very forthcoming about all of the murders that he committed. We would have never known, or I should say the Milwaukee police would have never known, that he was ever in Florida had Dahmer not brought that piece of information forward. It`s the feeling of a lot...

GRACE: But wait a minute. Ann, on the murders that Dahmer confessed to or talked about at least, wasn`t there forensic evidence to back them up?

SCHWARTZ: There certainly was. Yes, there was, for nearly every...


GRACE: ... water on every one of those, but not on Adam Walsh. With me, Ann Schwartz. Also with us, author Jay Harris.

And tonight, a very special guest is joining us, a veteran trial lawyer. He`s a real master in the courtroom, although he did represent a cannibal killer. Joining me right now, Gerald Boyle, Dahmer`s defense attorney.

First of all, how`s your son? His son served on a submarine far around the world for our country. How is your son?

GERALD BOYLE, JEFFREY DAHMER`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry, Nancy, I didn`t hear your question.

GRACE: It was not a difficult legal question. I asked you how your son is.

BOYLE: Oh, my son -- oh, thank you. Fine. He`s at the Pentagon. He`s a major in the Marine Corps working in Marine Corps intelligence. So thank you for asking.

GRACE: Now, let`s get down to it. Dahmer, your client, just a quick question before I get into the Adam Walsh issue. How did it feel sitting next to a guy that not only killed his victims, but he ate them for dinner?

BOYLE: Well, it really didn`t affect me very much. I mean, he was a client. He wasn`t my child. I had to treat him like I would treat anybody, no different than a doctor in an operating room would have to take out his burst appendix. It`s the nature of the business. I prosecuted a serial killer. So it meant nothing to me other than making sure that I did what the justice system required.

GRACE: Gerry, question.

BOYLE: Sure.

GRACE: You extensively interviewed Dahmer before he got the death penalty behind bars from another inmate. Any connection, do you think it`s possible he was connected to Adam`s disappearance?

BOYLE: I would like nothing more than to help Mr. Walsh have closure. Believe me. I think he`s a great man. He`s a great American. But I`m not going to give him any false hope that there`s merit to the claim without having some knowledge as how to piece it together.

Annie Schwartz really answered the question. He was so forthcoming to the police; he was forthcoming to eight psychiatrists. No one that I know of, including myself, has any information about...

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. There`s an obvious reason for that, Gerry Boyle.

BOYLE: What is it?

GRACE: In Wisconsin, it didn`t matter what he said, because he can`t get the death penalty. But in Florida, they would not be that worried about giving him the death penalty.

BOYLE: Let me say something real fast, if you don`t interrupt me. He wanted to die. He thought Ohio had the death penalty. I had to tell him they did not. As far as I`m concerned, he was very disappointed to hear that. He wanted to die. He didn`t have the gumption to kill himself.

When I told him, he asked me about Ohio. He`ll go back there and be executed. I told him that that execution could not take place because they`ve changed the rules.

But you asked Annie Schwartz about forensic evidence. There wasn`t forensic evidence on about half of those killings. He got rid of all the evidence. There was no forensic evidence. And yet he confessed to murders that they didn`t even know about.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m mad. This is how you act when you are out of control. I don`t want to ever see my mother have to go through this again. Never, Jeffrey! Jeffrey, I hate you (bleep)! I hate you! This is out of control! (INAUDIBLE)


GRACE: The sister of one of the many victims who died at the hands of Jeffrey Dahmer. Dahmer sitting in court like he didn`t have a care in the world.

Out to Neil Purtell, he`s a retired FBI agent that worked with the Milwaukee P.D. on the Dahmer case. Neil, it`s a real pleasure to have you with us. Did you question Dahmer about Adam Walsh? If so, what did he say?

NEIL PURTELL, FORMER FBI AGENT: Nancy, I started interviewing Dahmer after he was sentenced and was at Columbia correctional, which is a high- security prison in Wisconsin. He was in a transition period. He was no longer sort of a celebrity in the county jail. He was now adjusting to penitentiary life.

And my mission was to help review many, many out-of-state, out-of- country leads that were coming in to the FBI.

GRACE: What did he say about Adam?

PURTELL: Well, when I specifically asked him about Adam the first time, I remember him telling me, "Neil, honest to God, I didn`t do it. I didn`t kill Adam." I asked him, "Jeffrey, let`s leave God out of this." And that sort of piqued my interest, because I considered him to be a suspect from day one. He was there. He had opportunity. And he had already killed. The second time I asked him...

GRACE: Neil, OK. Could you give it to me in a nutshell?

PURTELL: Yes. He said two occasions, one...

GRACE: Hold on. I`ve run out of time, Neil. But I know that he denied it to you. Oh, how I`d like to discuss it further, and we will. A possible Dahmer-Adam Walsh connection. To all of my guests, thank you. To you, thank you for being with us. And until tomorrow night, good night, friend.