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Nancy Grace
College Student Arrested After Cops Find Dead Newborn in Dorm Room
Aired October 26, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a Louisville college coed and star golfer hides her pregnancy from family and friends and then secretly gives birth to a baby girl, the infant`s birthplace the toilet of her college dorm bathroom. That`s where police say the 19-year-old leaves the baby to drown, then hides it not once but twice. And we learn the young girl`s mom even plays in a major golf tournament just weeks before the secret birth. Tonight, the young coed walks free on $50,000 bond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nineteen-year-old Kathryn McCoy, a student at Bellarmine University from Indianapolis, is now behind bars. The sophomore gave birth by herself in her bathroom to a baby girl early Wednesday morning, then let the baby fall into the toilet, according to the police report, causing the infant`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was charged today with murder, tampering with physical evidence and concealing the birth of an infant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: And tonight: Music mega-star Britney Spears heads back to court in a custody showdown over her two toddler boys. Spears loses custody, loses visitation, then makes good on court-ordered conditions. Will music superstar Britney Spears regain custody of her two little boys?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surrounded by paparazzi and news cameras, music star Britney Spears arrives for yet another court hearing and the battle over her two toddler boys, Spears and her ex, Kevin Federline, fighting over custody of their sons, 2-year-old Sean Preston and 1-year-old Jayden James, spears recently losing custody and visitation rights after failing to comply with court-ordered conditions. The judge has since reinstated Spears`s monitored visits, but now she`s expected to fight for shared custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight, a young college coed accused of drowning her secret baby girl, the birthplace her dorm room`s toilet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nineteen-year-old Kathryn McCoy, known as Katie around campus, hadn`t told anyone about her pregnancy, not even her roommate. And after the baby was born, not only did she try and hide it from police, but denied ever giving birth. Police say after the baby was born, McCoy wrapped the infant`s body in a garbage bag. It wasn`t long before the baby was found and a call went out to 911. McCoy tried again to hide the baby, this time in her room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we know there was no anatomical causes that would show that the baby was not living at the time. So I`m not sure of the exact cause of death, but we do know that the baby was alive during birth. I believe the report will come back -- you`ll have to check with the medical examiner`s office there, but I believe the term they use would be possibly consistent with drowning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. First tonight: A woman that seemed like she had it all, a college student, 19 years old, gives birth to a baby in her toilet. The baby apparently drowns. Then she tries to hide the body not once but twice. Her roommate calls police. It`s just an unbelievable story.
But first, let`s go out to Jim Williams, reporter for 84 WHAS Newsradio, with the latest. Jim, bring us up to date and tell us exactly what happened.
JIM WILLIAMS, 84 WHAS NEWSRADIO: Good evening, Mike. The latest that we have is that, of course, Katie McCoy got out of jail earlier this evening, just a few hours ago, $50,000 bond was posted, that after the arraignment this morning. And what we learned on Wednesday was that she had given birth overnight and that this infant had died a short time later, within about 35 minutes or so of the birth. Katie herself was taken away in an ambulance to be cared for. But of course, the charges came back on Thursday and it was announced to us by the police.
BROOKS: What exactly is she charged with, Jim?
WILLIAMS: She`s charged with murder, also tampering with physical evidence and concealing the birth of a child.
BROOKS: That is -- that is just unbelievable. Did anybody even know that she was pregnant?
WILLIAMS: From what we understand, they didn`t. As you said in your open, she seems to have hidden the fact that she was pregnant from friends, family, everyone on campus, including her roommate.
BROOKS: But how did she do it?
WILLIAMS: Well, as we understand from the folks at Bellarmine, Katie is about 5-feet-11 and an athlete, of course...
BROOKS: Wow.
WILLIAMS: ... on the college golf team. So young woman of a taller stature have an easier time, frankly, covering these sorts of things. And also, as you mentioned, she continued the athletic career. She was in at least one tournament just weeks ago.
BROOKS: How did she do in that tournament?
WILLIAMS: That I don`t know. We didn`t have our sports people, unfortunately, check out the results of that one. But we understand she was one of the mainstays of the Bellarmine team.
BROOKS: Unbelievable to me!
Joining us is a very special guest. From Louisville, Kentucky, we have Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson. He`s with the Louisville Metro police, and he`s commander of the homicide unit. Jim, thanks -- or Lieutenant, thanks for being with us.
LT. BARRY WILKERSON, LOUISVILLE METRO POLICE: Thank you, Mike.
BROOKS: Tell me exactly who called 911, and try to put together a timeline of exactly what happened, if you will.
WILKERSON: It appears that one of the roommates of Ms. McCoy called in to 911 dispatch. Again, she located what appeared to be an infant in one of the trash rooms in the area. There was some confusion after police arrived where that infant may be due to the fact that it was not located there when they arrived.
BROOKS: Where was it located? Where was the body when they arrived?
WILKERSON: Approximately about half an hour later, through investigations, we determined that the baby was in Ms. McCoy`s dormitory room.
BROOKS: So you get on scene -- were you on scene yourself, Lieutenant?
WILKERSON: Yes, sir, I was.
BROOKS: So you get on scene. What did she tell you when you first got there?
WILKERSON: She originally denied even having the child.
BROOKS: Whoa, whoa, whoa~! She denied having the child?
WILKERSON: Yes, sir.
BROOKS: What did she say?
WILKERSON: Basically, she couldn`t understand why we were there. It was just a situation -- she couldn`t understand -- she didn`t know anything about an infant or a baby being born, but then later on did actually show us where the body was.
BROOKS: She did. Did she admit that she did have the baby and the baby drowned?
WILKERSON: Yes. I can`t go into a whole lot of specifics of what she said...
BROOKS: Right. Sure.
WILKERSON: ... but she did admit to having the child in the dorm room.
BROOKS: Unbelievable! Now, what did the roommate say when she called 911?
WILKERSON: Basically, she described that she had seen a child in the trash room. Ms. McCoy had asked for a garbage bag and...
BROOKS: She asked for a garbage bag?
WILKERSON: That`s correct. And obviously, at that point, it did raise some suspicions as to what was going on.
BROOKS: Yes, you think? I mean, did the roommate even know that she was pregnant?
WILKERSON: No. Again, just like Jim said, it was a situation where she concealed it very well. And at the same time, I believe they might have had some suspicions of what was going on but never actually brought it up in conversation.
BROOKS: That to me is incredible. Now, going back to Jim Williams, reporter for 84 WHAS Newsradio -- Jim, tell me a little bit about this college.
WILLIAMS: Well, Mike, Bellarmine is a smaller school. It`s not like the University of Louisville or University of Kentucky. It`s a private Catholic school. It`s -- on that level, it`s not what you would expect, say, at Georgetown or Notre Dame, not as much a church school, as far as priests, nuns, et cetera, being such an integral part of the faculty. As we understand it from some alumni that it is in Catholic tradition but not, as some folks would say, hard core in its Catholic stance. But it does have that attachment.
And so it`s a smaller school. They don`t have, say, football, but they do have basketball, golf, as Katie played, and various other sports. It`s a well-known institute around our community.
BROOKS: And I heard that it`s a fairly expensive school, and you can`t be a dummy to get in this school. You have to be fairly intelligent.
WILLIAMS: High academic standards, yes, sir.
BROOKS: Oh, that`s unbelievable! I want to go back to Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson with the Louisville Metro police, and he`s commander of the homicide unit. Lieutenant, can you describe the scene to us when you got there?
WILKERSON: Again, there was some confusion trying to locate the infant. Again, through our investigation, it was determined that the baby was in the room. Upon finding the baby -- typical dorm room -- we located the baby inside of a plastic bag which was stuck inside of one of her personal duffel bags.
BROOKS: OK, you get on the scene. Walk me through exactly what happened and what was said. And you know, you say she denied this. And didn`t she say something about, You better get a search warrant?
WILKERSON: That`s correct. And again, due to the exigent circumstance of attempting to find this child, hopefully still alive, I explained to her that we needed to search for this child only. That was our main concern. I wasn`t looking for any other evidence of any other type. My main concern there was that of the child.
BROOKS: And you know, I`m glad she`s a political science major, and not a law major, that`s for sure.
Let`s go out to the phones. Alesha from Tennessee, thanks for joining us. You have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering if the students that she went to school with, could they tell that she was pregnant?
BROOKS: Jim Williams, could they tell she was pregnant?
WILLIAMS: As we understand it, Mike, they couldn`t. As Lieutenant Wilkerson said, there were some rumblings around campus and some rumors, but she didn`t really reveal this, you know, full on to anyone, as far as we know.
BROOKS: Now, Lieutenant, what exactly are the charges that she`s being charged with? And she was released tonight on $50,000 bond.
WILKERSON: That`s correct. Still the same charges of murder, tampering with physical evidence and concealing the birth of an infant.
BROOKS: Very interesting.
Let`s uncage the lawyers. We`ve got three fine ones tonight, Holly Hughes, a former prosecutor from Atlanta, Steve Cron from -- he`s from LA, defense attorney, and Doug Burns, a wonderful attorney from here in New York. Thanks for being with us.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you, Michael.
BROOKS: OK, Doug. What`s the defense? Or is there one?
BURNS: First of all, it`s a tough case. Michael, I don`t know if you know, but according to the bureau, the FBI, five infants less than 1 year old are killed every week in this country. Now, that`s not relevant in court, but I`m giving you that as background. So this is not all that unusual. I think the defense, obviously, has to be some type of temporary insanity. I mean, this is a woman...
BROOKS: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Temporary insanity? OK. Help me understand, Doug.
BURNS: Sure.
BROOKS: How can it be temporary insanity if she was in the bathroom for almost an hour...
BURNS: Right.
BROOKS: ... then she asked her roommate for a plastic bag. Then she takes the body, puts it into the plastic bag, takes it down the hall to a trash room, leaves it there. Then the roommate goes, Wait a minute, what was in that bag? She goes down and finds it, and then she calls 911. She runs back down the hall, gets the bag, brings it back and puts it in a gym bag.
BURNS: Right. There`s no question that a lot of the subsequent activities, particularly in concealing, and so forth, make the case a lot more problematic. I have to be honest with you, Michael. I was a prosecutor nine years.
BROOKS: Right.
BURNS: But the reality of it is, is that, you know, you have to make it as though -- it`s not necessarily just that one hour. In the overall scheme of things, she just could not handle the situation and just lost it. This is a National Honor Society student...
BROOKS: Oh, you just don`t lose it. I mean, I don`t buy this whole thing, Doug, just kind of -- just kind of losing it.
Now, Holly Hughes, is she eligible for the death penalty?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Yes, she is. She`s being charged with murder. Kentucky is a death penalty state, so that`s what she will be facing if the district attorney decides to ask for it. She`s eligible. We don`t know if they`re seeking it yet.
BROOKS: Now, you know, Steve Cron, defense attorney, will she be able to plea down or do you think they`re going to go ahead with the homicide charge?
STEVEN CRONE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I have some thoughts, and I`m not saying that I necessarily want to be in this position to argue it...
(LAUGHTER)
BROOKS: I bet!
CRON: But the question is, why -- how did the baby die? Now, if she was sitting on the toilet and the baby came out and the baby drowned -- and I think there`s indications that baby did drown -- and she could -- and it`s a stretch, but she could say, I didn`t intend the baby to die. The baby fell into the water. I didn`t know what to do. I panicked. I passed out. The baby drowned. I picked the baby up. The baby was dead. And then I freaked out. I didn`t know what to do. So I decided I had to hide the baby. But the baby was cold. It wasn`t breathing. I didn`t intent to kill the baby.
BROOKS: Right.
CRON: It was a gross accident.
BROOKS: Well, didn`t intend to kill the baby, that`s a stretch. I want to go back out...
CRON: I agree.
BROOKS: I want to go back out to Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson. Lieutenant, has the autopsy been done? And who did the autopsy?
WILKERSON: Yes, the autopsy was completed by our medical examiner`s office. A preliminary report did come out that did state that the child was living at the time of birth.
BROOKS: So -- oh! Oh! That`s just -- that`s just -- that just makes me ill!
Let`s go back out to the phones. Jackie from Canada, thanks for joining us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Mike. How`re you doing?
BROOKS: Good, thank you. And you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, pretty good.
BROOKS: Good. You had a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I can`t believe the selfishness and ignorance of the girls. I wondered what education is given, if any, to colleges or universities regarding safe haven laws.
BROOKS: You know, that`s a great question. And joining us by phone is a very, very special guest, Debi Faris. She`s founder and director of Garden of Angels. Debi, thank you for being with us.
DEBI FARIS, FOUNDER/DIRECTOR, GARDEN OF ANGELS: Thank you, Mike.
BROOKS: You`re a very, very special person. I just want to tell you that.
FARIS: Oh. Well, I`m not really, but I just want to say thank you very much for bringing light to the subject.
BROOKS: And this is -- this is you here with one of the babies that you helped save. It`s just the job you do.
Now, getting back to the caller`s question about safe havens. You know, is this a safe haven state? And is there enough education given to people, expectant mothers, about safe havens?
FARIS: Yes, Kentucky is a safe haven state, and so are 48 other states around the United States. The only two that aren`t are Alaska and Nebraska, and they are in the process of getting those -- the safe haven law in process.
The education part of it, Mike, honestly, we need to do more. We need to allow our young people to be part of the solution. And that`s what it is all about, is reaching those mothers before they give birth and giving them a place to -- or a person to go to that they can trust and talk to about this, about this unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.
BROOKS: Right. And I think that`s the whole thing, is trust. And you know, we just saw these pictures going through, you here with one baby. Liz, can we go to the one with all the children around her? Now, these are all children that you apparently -- these are all children that were abandoned?
FARIS: These children are the children that have been safely surrendered. Our law for the state of California came in effect in 2001. We know that in the state of California alone, there are approximately 200 babies that have been safely surrendered because of this life-saving law. So you know, these laws do save lives. And that`s the whole thing. We need to keep the education about these laws out there.
BROOKS: And I think just the whole -- the whole Garden of Angels concept is to me is just amazing, and you`re doing amazing work out there. And the alternative is that other picture you showed, with all the small, little tombstones. Now, that`s a cemetery that you keep in mind yourself?
FARIS: Yes, it is. But it`s with a lot of other people who have come together that feel the same way that I do, that all people, all human beings deserve to have dignity and love and respect. And that`s what we do for these children who have been found thrown away or left unclaimed at the coroner`s office. We have approximately 80 babies that are buried in the Garden of Angels. And you know, we do anything that we can. It`s our passion to save the lives of these children, our passion to reach these mothers beforehand.
BROOKS: Well, you look at this picture, Debi, and you know, I wish there was a -- I wish there was a Debi Faris in every state in this country that cared so much about these children as you do.
FARIS: You know, Mike, there are. There are.
BROOKS: You know, we don`t hear about it too often. We hear about some of these mothers, you know, the killer moms. You know, we`ve had -- over the years, we`ve been hearing so many of them -- you know, Teri Rhodes, Melissa Drexler, Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson, who -- they basically pled guilty after their newborn son was found wrapped in plastic in a motel trash bin. Teri Rhodes gave birth in a campus apartment bathroom similar to this, and then she allegedly suffocated the newborn, and she was charged with homicide.
The stories go on and on. We heard Doug`s little statistic about -- from the FBI. It just -- to me, it`s just disgusting but very, very sad that they couldn`t get the help that they really needed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILKERSON: Apparently, she had attempted to conceal this birth by placing it in the trash room, which is located down the hallway from her room. Upon her knowing that the police had been called, she again attempted to conceal the birth of this child by placing it in the bag and then one of her personal gym bags in her dorm room.
She was charged today with murder, tampering with physical evidence and concealing the birth of an infant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. That was Lieutenant Wilkerson from Louisville Metro police, commander of the homicide unit there, at the press conference. A 19-year-old student at a small Catholic college in Louisville, Kentucky, seemingly had everything going for her. She goes into the bathroom for almost an hour, gives birth to a baby girl in her dorm room toilet, puts it in a plastic bag, throws it out like the garbage, then goes it retrieves it and tries to hide it in a gym bag. It`s unbelievable to me!
I want to go back out to Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson with the Louisville Metro police. Lieutenant, do we know who the father of this baby is?
WILKERSON: We have some idea. Again, she did have a boyfriend. We`re researching more into that at this time.
BROOKS: Did he know that she was pregnant with his baby?
WILKERSON: We haven`t had a chance to interview Ms. McCoy yet to even get that far into this investigation.
BROOKS: Let`s take a listen to this about reaction around campus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED: How can a person get to that point where they feel they have no other way out? Not so much that it happened here that`s the problem, it`s more the fact that it just happened in general.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made an unfortunate mistake and she made an unfortunate decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I want to go back out -- I want to go out to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." She`s out in LA. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Glass.
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Great to be here, Mike.
BROOKS: Lillian, help me understand and help the viewers understand the mindset of someone like this who tries to conceal a pregnancy.
GLASS: Yes. What`s so amazing is that she had no support system. She didn`t have a roommate she could talk to. She didn`t have friends, a counselor. She also may have gone through denial. Oftentimes, when people are in a situation where they`re frightened, they just ignore it. They just -- No, this isn`t really happening. They deny it. And that accounts for her going and playing golf last week. So we`re really...
BROOKS: But why do they deny it?
GLASS: They deny it because they don`t want it to happen. Maybe it will go away -- in their mind. It`s not happening. It`s frightening. And that`s one of their psychological ways of coping. It`s a coping mechanism. But what`s so sad, what`s even sadder than the situation, is that she had nobody to talk to. Her parents weren`t there for her. In fact, they weren`t even at the arraignment. And that speaks volumes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you hiding the fact that you are pregnant?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have a choice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can leave your newborn infant 72 hours old or younger with an employee of any hospital emergency room or fire department -- safe, legal, confidential, no questions asked.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. That`s a public service announcement from a group called Garden of Angels. We`re very lucky to have Debi Faris with us tonight, who is the founder and director of Garden of Angels.
I want to go out right now to Pat Brown. She`s a criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport." Pat, this was a 19-year-old college student, had everything going for her. Does she fit the profile of a stone, cold killer?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, actually, she could. Mike, one of the hard things about this is because she`s so young, we tend to want to just forgive her. Like some of the students said, she made a mistake. She just can`t be this horrible a person.
But here`s the problem. Most people who make a mistake get pregnant, first of all, they have a choice to get pregnant, they -- by committing a sexual act without any birth control. Secondly, they can get an abortion. Now, admittedly, she is going to a Catholic school, so I`m guessing she`s Catholic. And they can -- you know, then they can go on and get the baby up for adoption. They can do a lot of things.
Now, some people say, Oh, she was very scared, so she hid it all and she had no support system. Why didn`t she have a support system? Maybe it was because she herself wasn`t too easy to support.
BROOKS: Well, Pat, let me ask you this. I`m a Roman Catholic myself. Do you think that the fact that she goes to a Catholic college had anything to do with why she wanted to hide this?
BROWN: Well, it could certainly be something like that. But you know, even without safe haven, a normal person cannot kill babies. So you have to have a psychopathic bent and say, I just don`t want this thing, it`s in my way and I don`t really have any empathy, so I`m just going to get rid of it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nineteen-year-old Kathryn McCoy, known as Katie around campus, hadn`t told anyone about her pregnancy, not even her roommate. And after the baby was born, not only did she try and hide it from police, but denied ever giving birth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. McCoy had locked herself in a bathroom for approximately an hour, hour-and-a-half, delivered this baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When police arrived, McCoy denied she had given birth when they questioned her, preventing EMS from helping the child, but police say they don`t know if the baby could have been saved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the police and EMS personnel located the child, the child was actually wrapped inside of a bag and stuck inside of a gym bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. A newborn baby stuffed in a gym bag. The thought of it is, to me, is just repulsive. There`s a lot of people that want to weigh in. Let`s go out to our viewers.
Melanie from Alabama, thanks for joining us, you have a question.
CALLER: Yes, I do. If they don`t go for the death penalty on this, would they go for life in prison? Or how many years would this coed get? And would she ever be eligible for parole?
BROOKS: Holly Hughes, prosecutor out of Atlanta, what do you think?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Honestly, I don`t think they`re going to seek the death penalty in this case. She`s a young girl. I`ve got to say though, I agree with Pat Brown earlier. We don`t know why she didn`t have a support system, Mike. She brought this on herself. She is intelligent, and she had other choices she could have made. I don`t believe they`re going to seek death, but she should get a life sentence. I`m not familiar enough with Kentucky`s law to know whether that makes her eligible for parole or not, but I don`t think they`re going to seek death on her. She`s too pitiful.
BROOKS: Very interesting.
I want to go back out to Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson with the Louisville Metro Police, commander of homicide unit, Lieutenant, if EMS and you folks had gotten there in time, could this baby have been saved?
LT. BARRY WILKERSON, LOUISVILLE METRO POLICE: Mike, you`re kind of venturing out of my professional field a little bit, but, obviously, it sure would have been nice to locate the child sooner and at least had the possibility to, you know, make sure it had medical attention.
BROOKS: I want to go out to our doctor, our resident doctor, Dr. Jake Deutsch. He`s doctor of emergency medicine, Hackensack University Medical Center, Doctor, thanks for being with us.
DR. JAKE DEUTSCH, DOCTOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE: Thank you.
BROOKS: Doc, you with us? Good. We just heard the lieutenant say that she was in this bathroom, she`s in this dorm room in the bathroom there for an hour to an hour-and-a-half. She gave birth, apparently drowned. What did this newborn, this infant that apparently was almost full, full term, what did the baby go through?
DEUTSCH: Well, it sounds like a relatively normal birth if it took about an hour`s time. It`s hard to say exactly what the circumstances were that led to the death, but I`m assuming that the baby drowned. Certainly, the medical examiner needs to do an autopsy and look for signs of water and injury to the lungs.
But I think they also want to really look at whether there was air and signs of actual life after the delivery. That would be evident in an autopsy, as well, to justify whether this baby was, in fact, alive at the time of the delivery. It`s a very delicate time frame for the baby, and, you know, to survive such circumstances is just unbelievable.
BROOKS: Does a newborn like this, did this baby girl suffer? And do infants like this feel pain?
DEUTSCH: Absolutely. I mean, there`s been studies that show that, you know, there`s pain intrauterine. And, certainly, the ability to cry is Mother Nature`s way of letting us know that a baby is unhappy. So I can only imagine that there was suffering. And if this baby was put in a plastic bag and very well could have been alive, it`s just unconscionable to think about.
BROOKS: Lieutenant Wilkerson, did EMS try to revive the baby?
WILKERSON: At that point, they determined the baby was deceased upon their first contact.
BROOKS: Now, we know the medical examiner has said that apparently the cause of death was drowning. Did they give any other details at all about the baby?
WILKERSON: No, sir. Again, it`s still a preliminary report. More will be coming out in their final report later in the year.
BROOKS: Did she try to clean up the crime scene, if you will?
WILKERSON: Yes, somewhat, to a certain extent. There was still some evidence left behind that we collected. But somewhat, it did appear that something was cleaned up.
BROOKS: Now, did the roommate hear anything going on in the bathroom for the hour, hour-and-a-half?
WILKERSON: She did hear the shower running. Again, she just said she was having cramps. Again, that did obviously raise some suspicions for her, but nothing that she heard out of the ordinary.
BROOKS: Unbelievable.
I want to go back out to Jim Williams, reporter for 84 WHAS News Radio, Jim, what`s the feeling around camps and around the community about this?
JIM WILLIAMS, WHAS NEWS RADIO: Mike, you had a little bit of the reaction of students on campus. Some are shocked. Some are outraged, as we heard from your callers, as well. And that`s what the callers to our talk shows are saying, also. But there are folks that have compassion. It`s a wide range of emotions across our community.
BROOKS: What`s the school saying? Have they had any reaction from the school?
WILLIAMS: The only response from the school and President Joseph McGowan that we`ve seen so far was a letter he sent to the university community asking the students, faculty, staff, everyone at Bellarmine to keep Kathryn, Katie, in their prayers, as well as the late infant. He also did point out that the university`s policy, when there`s a criminal case involving a student, is to suspend the student from school until the case makes its way through the courts. After that, the student comes before a court of conduct hearing on campus.
BROOKS: Well, didn`t she just recently withdrawal, maybe today?
WILLIAMS: I think that`s entirely likely, yes.
BROOKS: I want to go back out to Doug Burns, defense attorney. OK, Doug, you`ve heard everything about how this baby suffered, how this baby died. Homicide or do you think they`ll plea down? You know, and we heard Holly say that most likely will not get the death penalty. What do you think?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think you`re exactly right. I think, first of all, the doctor made a very good point, which is you have to first look and see whether the baby was alive at that point. I know that everybody is repulsed and so on, but legally that`s an important fact.
Nonetheless, jurors have visceral reactions, and I think there is sympathy around this woman. So if I had to predict -- and I`ve seen a lot of cases like this -- I think that, when the dust from the sympathy settles, there will be a plea bargain down, just as you said, Michael.
BROOKS: I`ll tell you what, you know, you almost feel sorry -- I feel almost sorry for this girl. Yes, she killed this baby. There are so many people out there that want babies, and that`s why Guardian of Angels, we have organizations like that.
Let`s go out to the lines. Christina from West Virginia, you have a question.
CALLER: Yes, I was wondering -- everybody is talking about people on campus. What about her family? Where are they? And do they know anything about it?
BROOKS: Jim Williams?
WILLIAMS: Mike, we haven`t heard from the family. And as she was bonded out of jail earlier this evening, it was said by her lawyer that neither she nor her parents are going to be talking about this any time soon. So the caller asked a good question and one that we in the media and really everyone would like to get an answer to.
BROOKS: Lieutenant Barry Wilkerson, have you interviewed her parents at all in reference to this?
WILKERSON: We`ve spoken through to their attorney to the parents. They did display some I guess -- I guess the fact that they felt sorry that we had to actually endure this investigation.
BROOKS: Now, the parents have an attorney, or is this is through her defense attorney?
WILKERSON: Through her defense attorney. We`re dealing with her parents, also.
BROOKS: Good God.
Lillian Glass, Dr. Lillian Glass, OK, help me understand. It`s hard to understand how someone could just do this, and just leave the baby in the toilet to drown.
DR. LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s so true. And I so agree with Pat Brown, what she said about the fact, why didn`t she reach out to other people? What was it about her? Was there something about this woman that didn`t allow her to bond with other people?
But what happens is, in a case like this, is she has completely denied the existence of this baby. And, so, in essence, when the baby is delivered, she has detached from it, and so she objectifies it, that it`s not really a baby, it`s a thing. And that enables her to do what she did, this horrific act.
So you realize that she`s so disturbed and so mentally incompetent, but, yet, again, there`s a whole different story here that you have to look at, in terms of why, as Pat Brown said, hasn`t she bonded with somebody else? Why didn`t she talk to other people about her problem?
BROOKS: That`s a good question, and that`s a question that everybody has been asking tonight.
To tonight`s "Case Alert." A Georgia man sentenced to 10 years in prison for consensual sex as a teen walks free! A Georgia Supreme Court overturned the sentence of Genarlow Wilson, ruling it cruel and unusual punishment. Wilson, just 17, when he`s ordered to prison for a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl. Georgia`s attorney general will not appeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENARLOW WILSON, CASE OVERTURNED BY SUPREME COURT: From day one, I said that, you know, not just me, but, you know, all of us, you know, we made decisions that I felt like could have been better, but, you know, I felt like we`ve all learned from the experience, and all we can do is move forward and can`t look back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: When we come back, music megastar Britney Spears back in court in a custody showdown over her two toddler boys.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Los Angeles judge presiding over the legal showdown already costing Britney Spears custody of her two sons says no to videotape depositions. An attorney for Spears` ex, Kevin Federline, requesting the videotapes preserve witness testimony, mainly for their body language. But Spears` attorney successfully argues he believes the tapes would be leaked and end up all over the Internet. Spears, fighting to regain custody, set to prove she has complied with all the court`s requirements and previous orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. Kevin Federline and Britney Spears back in court, the battle royale in L.A. For the latest, let`s go out to Mike Walker, senior editor of the "National Enquirer" from Los Angeles.
Mike, what`s the latest?
MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER": Well, the latest is that the judge did not make a ruling. Kevin`s attorney said on the courthouse steps that they are going to announce what his ruling will be probably on Tuesday.
For the moment, everything is sort of status quo. Britney will be seeing the kids over the weekend. So you remember custody or visitation was once pulled away from her, and then she got it back, and now she does have it back again, but only until the judge says whatever he`s going to say on Tuesday.
BROOKS: Now, what`s the stipulations of the visitation now? I know before somebody had to be there. There was all kinds of stipulations. Are there any on it this time?
WALKER: Well, yes. And, in fact, as you know, Britney wanted her mother to be one of the monitors, and nobody would agree with that. And, of course, the court appointed a parental expert. Well, I guess we all heard that Britney was very sarcastic, according to this parental expert, wouldn`t pay attention to her, wouldn`t listen to her, wouldn`t do the things she wanted her to do.
BROOKS: Imagine that, mother of the year.
WALKER: Yes, exactly. And it goes almost beyond belief, Mike. I mean, if you remember, this whole thing started back on the 24th, just to give you a quick timeline, last month, 24th, "Yep, judge, I`m going to do everything." On the 27th, our paper reported, from eyewitness reports, that Britney was down at Newport Beach at this party for a cosmetics company, not only drunk, but high on cocaine, took pain pills, slurring, et cetera.
By the 27th, of course, by the 1st, the judge, Kevin`s attorneys went to the judge and played a tape that she had made. She called Kevin and said, "I`m high, I`m going to stay high." Now, can you imagine?
BROOKS: Yeah, I can imagine. From everything we`ve heard, I can imagine that.
WALKER: Yes. It`s mind-boggling. And so the rights were taken away from her then, but a few days later, she got them back again. And then, of course, she missed the call for the drug test. You know, she was supposed to stand by on her cell phone. It was a designated cell phone, and they made the call, and, hello, nobody picks up the phone.
Britney, of course, says, oh, well, the signal was bad, although here in L.A., I can almost believe her. But, again, she got it back. She got her visitation rights back. This judge, by the way, if you look on publications, you`ll see, she says, "I hate this judge." This judge has been pretty good to her, I think.
BROOKS: I think that judge has been really good to her. We saw some video earlier from TMZ. This is video from Hollywood.TV. Now, I want to go out to Kelli Zink, host of CelebTV.com.
KELLI ZINK, CELEBTV.COM: Good evening.
BROOKS: How are you doing? Thanks for joining us.
ZINK: What a night.
BROOKS: Now, court just ended, didn`t it?
ZINK: Yes. And during the entire court process, which was about four hours long, Britney was visibly upset almost the entire time. She took three bathroom breaks. Now, over four hours, that doesn`t seem unusual. But nobody else was running to the bathroom, changing their hair, fixing their sunglasses, really bizarre behavior.
BROOKS: Now, I heard that she also came out and dropped the f-bomb.
ZINK: She did. There are reports from people that were in the hallway -- and our cameras were there, too -- that she was using vulgar language to some reporters. And when you`re undergoing this kind of scrutiny, that`s not good behavior when you`re trying to be a good parent. So Britney has just kind of gone off the deep end, once again.
BROOKS: Mother of the year, I`ve been calling her that for the last couple of weeks. And she`s a train wreck, but people love watching train wrecks.
I want to go out to Dr. Lillian Glass. Why are people infatuated with this freak show?
GLASS: Because they can`t really believe that this is really happening. I mean, you`re seeing somebody that`s so self-absorbed, you`re seeing somebody that you grew up with that you thought was such a nice, little girl, and then she grew up to this young woman and had children, and then now you see how disturbed she is, how selfish she is, how it`s all about her, how she can`t survive unless there are shutters and people taking photographs of her and lights in front of her. She can`t function. She needs to have that public adulation or, who knows what`s going to happen to her?
BROOKS: This is video from CelebTV.com. You know, you look at Kevin Federline -- and I want to go out to Pat Brown. Is he any better of a parent than she is? You know, before he was there, and everybody was saying, oh, he`s there, he`s a gold digger, he just is there for the money. But you know what? His behavior has been on the straight and narrow, where hers has been all over the place.
BROWN: Well, Mike, I think one of the funniest things when you`re trying to decide child custody is that tends to be that like attracts like. So sometimes you have two people. You say, who should we give the kid to, the burglar father, or the crack addict mother? Oh, no, neither one of them. Let`s give it to the aunt who has five kids and has check fraud charges. Oh, maybe not.
Sometimes the like attracts like. So the problem here is, yes, I think Kevin at this point is a lot better of a choice, because he is certainly not doing all the absolutely lunatic things that Britney is doing. And she`s really exhibiting such narcissism that she doesn`t respect any rule. She`ll break them all.
BROOKS: Now, and I`ll tell you, did we ever think that we`d see Kevin Federline as the responsible parent? I sure didn`t.
Let`s go out to the lines, Katie from Canada. Thanks for joining us. You have a question?
CALLER: Yes, I was wondering why the media was so consumed on following Britney and not Kevin.
BROOKS: Kelli Zink, host of CelebTV.com, what do you think?
ZINK: Britney makes it much more accessible for the media to follow her, because she is going into these public places, where K-Fed today wasn`t photographed at all. He road in his lawyer`s car and snuck in under tunnel, and nobody saw him. Britney, however, pulled right up front and was a huge media spectacle.
BROOKS: Well, I don`t think she`s ever met a camera that she didn`t like. And she, oh, the paparazzi is all over me, but she goes out of her way, I think, for the attention.
Sheba from Illinois, thanks for joining us.
CALLER: Hi, Mike. My question is -- and this is just my intestinal fortitude -- and let me tell you how I get this -- is I am a retired nurse, and I have seen this in my past practice many, many times. She doesn`t want these children. And I think she does this to keep herself in the limelight, and she`s kind of using these children as a battering...
BROOKS: I hear what you`re saying. She`s using these children as a tool. And you know what? I hope that she gets the help that she needs, because she needs some serious help.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROOKS: Tonight, a look back on the stories and the people making the rest of the headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Jim, you said you`d gathered up your precious belongings. What did you gather up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we took family photos. That was the most important thing for us, and other memorabilia. We threw everything into suitcases as fast as we could.
CALLER: It`s OK. I need you to stay calm so you can help me help them, OK?
GRACE: No, it`s not OK. The 11-month-old baby girl was found dead. Her coffin? A cardboard diaper box upstairs in the attic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s apparently in the electronics section. And when this man comes up to her, who we now know as Jaime Calacan, and basically he starts touching her inappropriately. That`s when she reaches up, kicks him in the groin...
DISPATCHER: Jabbing you with what?
CALLER: With her hand.
GRACE: Biting the hand of her 8-year-old little boy to make him give back the cell phone when he`s trying to report her drunk driving?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say he lies about what happened before breaking down and admitting he put the 2-month-old in a microwave for 10 seconds. His attorney says Mauldin has voices talking to him and all kinds of other issues.
GRACE: He`s got issues? I guess he does have issues, and I guess the voices are saying, "You`d better plead insanity, because you don`t have anywhere else to hide."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROOKS: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Steven Elrod, just 20 years old, from Hope Mills, North Carolina, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Army Service Ribbon, and the National Defense Service Medal, remembered for his baby blue eyes. He loved riding, basketball and chocolate. He dreamed of playing basketball at Boise State and a career in marine biology or sports journalism. He leaves behind grieving parents, Karen and Denny, his sister, Kristen, and brothers, Jack, Scott and Daniel. Steven Elrod, an American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests and especially to you at home for being with us tonight. I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, please stay safe.
END
