Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Peterson Loses Bid to Regain Items Seized by Police

Aired December 17, 2007 - 20:00   ET


MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Tonight: He says he`s America`s number one hated person and says the investigation into the disappearance of his fourth wife is a witch hunt, Drew Peterson named a prime suspect in the disappearance of 23-year-old Stacy Peterson. And today, the judge rules that investigators can hold onto seized evidence from the Peterson home, including two family cars and 11 guns. Attorneys say he wants a special prosecutor to investigate leaks from (SIC) the media from a special grand jury.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The husband of Stacy Peterson in court this morning. Drew Peterson`s lawyer says prosecutors are relying on innuendo to explain Stacy`s disappearance, but those prosecutors insist it`s simply too early to give Peterson back his guns two vehicles and a computer. They say the probe is ongoing. The Chicago-area ex-cop is a suspect but has not been charged with anything. His wife has been missing since October 28.


BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight: A judge tells suspect Drew Peterson no. Investigators will be allowed to keep the items seized from the Peterson home, including 11 guns.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former cop Drew Peterson will have to wait a bit longer before he can get his guns back. An Illinois judge denied his request for items seized during the search for his missing wife, including 11 guns and two cars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re a little bit disappointed in the judge`s ruling that he didn`t release these items to us today. He did continue it for monitoring for approximately 30 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve requested a special prosecutor. Why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of the -- what are undeniable leaks of secret grand jury proceedings that are making their way into the press. The bank records are obviously, I believe, a grand jury leak, in my opinion, but I don`t -- I know the bank didn`t release the contents of those records. I heard somebody yesterday speculate that it was hush money, when it absolutely was not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this the report about the 200 grand in "The Enquirer" that was given to Steve?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t read "The Enquirer," but it`s -- it was reported in other media.


BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Well, the saga continues -- talks of hush money, talks of -- he can`t get his evidence back. He needs his guns back. What -- there`s just a lot still going on in this case with missing Stacy Peterson.

For the latest, let`s go out to Chicago, Mary Frances Bragiel, reporter for WBBM Newsradio 780. Thanks for being with us, Mary.


BROOKS: So what`s the latest?

BRAGIEL: Basically, I spoke to Drew today. He`s not happy by the fact of the judge`s ruling here, saying that he needs his computers back because of his children, age 2 and 4, that are living with him. And he said he can`t afford spending $350 a week to rent a car, so he needs his car back. He didn`t mention the guns to me, even though he was a gun collector, but he`s not happy with the whole situation, once again calling it a witch hunt.

BROOKS: Now, you know, he said it`s a witch hunt, but you know, he didn`t mention -- did he mention the guns not at all?

BRAGIEL: Not at all. He mentioned -- he was disappointed at the fact that he didn`t get the computers back and he didn`t get his cars back.

BROOKS: Now, you know, they`re talking about this hush money. What is -- what is Brodsky talking about?

BRAGIEL: That`s just Brodsky talking, that`s all it is. I mean, according to, you know, the published reports, there is $250,000 that was transferred to Drew`s son, Steve, who is also a police officer with another department. He`s the one who just went before a special grand jury for a second time last week. And in a published report, Drew denies it, and he also denied it to me on the phone today, as well. But then later on, when you read the article, he talks about how his children will be taken care of in the event that something should happen -- you know, in the event that he is arrested.

BROOKS: How`s Drew`s psyche right now? How`s his attitude? Is he -- how`s he doing?

BRAGIEL: You know, he`s fine. You know, he laughs a lot, his usual - - because, you know, when he tells -- says whenever he gets nervous, he laughs a lot. He appears to still remain in a good mood, even with the holidays around, and still maintains the fact that Stacy left him for another man.

BROOKS: Interesting. Right now joining us by phone is Chicago`s Kathy Chaney, reporter for "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, they`re still apparently also searching the Chicago sanitary and ship canal. Are they -- were the back searching that today?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": I believe so, but again, nothing fruitful is coming out of that. They`re still removing some things, but each thing that they remove, they say they will review it, just in case there`s something there that may be tied to it.

BROOKS: Now -- now doesn`t this -- this ship canal have a history of stolen cars, stolen trucks? And even going back 25 years or so, there was a case where there was a car with even a body found in the trunk, involving a law enforcement officer?

CHANEY: Yes. I mean, there`s just tons of I would just say junk down there, large items, like you said, cars, trucks, just everything down there.

BROOKS: Now, what led them to this canal initially?

CHANEY: According to sources and published reports, the night that Stacy went missing, October 28, Cassandra, her stepsister, called Drew around 11:00 o`clock, I guess trying to figure out where Stacy was. She didn`t show up for the appointment to help rehab a house earlier that day. She said Drew sounded out of breath. She asked him where was he. He said he was at home, but she said that he wasn`t because she was sitting outside the home. And the cell phone tower ping showed that Drew was in that area around the canal when he was on the phone with Cassandra at that time.

BROOKS: OK, so wait a minute, now. The cell phone pings -- and our viewers know -- I talk about this all the time. With the records, you can tell -- they can go back -- law enforcement can go back and look at these cell phone records and find out which cell tower, from tower to tower to tower, he -- somebody is near. So what you`re saying is, there was a ping coming from this particular area, when he said that he was at home?

CHANEY: Correct. That is what sources have told the media, yes.

BROOKS: Interesting. You know, and it`s -- I find it interesting because back -- back a few weeks ago, we had a friend of Drew Peterson on, Ric Mims, who said that he used to be a supporter of him until he talked to him, to Drew, and the whole timeline didn`t add up. So maybe we can now start to find some of these gaps in the timeline.

Joining us also by phone from Bolingbrook, Illinois, a very, very special guest, Steve Carcerano. He`s a -- he`s a good friend of Drew Peterson. Steve, thanks for being with us.


BROOKS: Now, you just heard what Kathy Chaney was saying, about the ping. He was speaking to Cassandra. He said he was at home. Then they think -- we`re hearing from sources they think that he may have been in the area of this canal. What is Drew telling you about this?

CARCERANO: Drew says that he totally denies that, of course. You know, I asked him earlier today, and he said he was in his -- he was in (INAUDIBLE) when he got that phone call. So again, you know, this is sources that are releasing this information, and everything seems to be coming up false. So you know, I would like to finally find something that hits, but everything that`s coming out, all these allegations that have been recently have all been false.

BROOKS: Interesting. Now, you are still a supporter of Drew right now, at this point, correct?

CARCERANO: Yes, sir.

BROOKS: Because, you know, we had Ric Mims on, and he was apparently initially a supporter, but kind of -- after he didn`t agree and that he heard the timeline, he kind of said, Well, you know, I can`t really back you anymore. But you`re still backing Drew Peterson, and you think that what he`s saying is true.


BROOKS: How -- how long have you known -- how long have you known Drew?

CARCERANO: (INAUDIBLE) Drew since 1999, when he moved in two doors down from me with Kathleen Savio.

BROOKS: Interesting. Now, he -- two doors down with Kathleen Savio. Now, Kathleen Savio, again, as everyone knows, is his wife number three, whose body was exhumed back on November 13. Now, her death was originally ruled an accidental drowning, but they exhumed the body of Kathleen Savio to, again, reexamine the body, perform another autopsy. In fact, there was the court-ordered autopsy and then an independent autopsy was done. What are you hearing, if anything, about this, Steve?

CARCERANO: I haven`t heard anything in regards to the second autopsy that was done by the county. I have heard other people come forward, other than just Dr. Baden. Obviously, he did the third autopsy, which was independent. But Howard Oliver on your show, he said after the first -- reading the first autopsy, that he would view this as an accidental drowning, and he said that there`s no reason to believe that this is a homicide. So it`s kind of interesting that we`re getting conflicting results.

BROOKS: Yes, we are getting conflicting results. Now, Steve, you`re a person who was with Drew back in 2004. Take us back to 2004, the day that Kathleen Savio`s body was found in this tub. You were there. Take us through that and tell us what happened.

CARCERANO: He saw me in the street. I was coming home from work that evening. And he asked me to go to the house in the next 15 minutes because he had a locksmith coming over there. He was trying to drop off the kids for the past day-and-a-half. And he already contacted Mary, which was her best friend, to go over there.

So I pulled up in my driveway. I went and got Mary, and me and Mary walked over to the house, and Drew and the locksmith were at the front of the house. And when the locksmith unlocked the door, Mary and I walked up the stairs, and that`s when we went into the bedroom. She went to the right by the bed, I went in the closet, and then I went into the bathroom. And that`s when I walked to the back of the bathroom and noticed -- again, I`m going to say a balloon-type object or an exercise ball. And when I looked down, it was Kathy.

BROOKS: Now, I know it`s painful because you knew her and -- but what...

CARCERANO: Absolutely.

BROOKS: ... what condition -- I know -- you know, I`m an -- I was an investigator for a long time. What kind of condition did you see her in?

CARCERANO: I see that her skin discoloring. It was like a bluish purple color. Her hair was, you know, drawn over her face and it was wet. And you know, out of, you know, respect, you know, right away, I yelled for Mary. Mary came in the bathroom, and then when she started yelling after seeing her, that`s when Drew came flying up the stairs.

But out of respect, because, you know, Kathy is a woman and that`s Drew`s, you know...


CARCERANO: ... ex-wife at the time, and Mary, you know, it`s not something I wanted to stare at for a long period of time.

BROOKS: Right. Right.

CARCERANO: So something that I never thought that I would see.

BROOKS: No. And it`s something that I hope no one ever has to see. Having been on many homicide scenes myself...


BROOKS: ... and death scenes myself, it`s just -- it`s something you don`t want to see. Now, take us back also to the relationship with Kathleen and Drew. Were you around them quite a bit?

CARCERANO: Yes. We lived two doors down. Again, her best friend, which was my direct neighbor, we`re very close. We`re like family to them. And we saw them all the time. And you know, as far as we could tell -- I mean, as far as I could tell, they were happy up until the point when Kathy got the letter, anonymous letter in the mail, and that`s what disclosed that there was Stacy in the picture at that point.

BROOKS: Now, the -- tell me about -- tell us about the anonymous letter.

CARCERANO: There was a letter stuck in the mailbox. It was typewritten. It was many pages. And it was someone revealing the fact that Drew had a girlfriend, which was Stacy at the time. And then when that came out, that was, you know, obviously, a big thing in their relationship. And from there, proceeded to go downhill very quickly.

BROOKS: Interesting. Now, you know, we hear about 18 calls for police serve at the house, with the, you know, domestic violence allegations, all these kind of things. Were you were there when any -- any domestic violence took place or there was any heated argument?

CARCERANO: Yes. There was two different altercations that I witnessed that the police showed up for. But other than those two, I did not know anything about any abusive relationship or him hitting her or anything like that. I believe 9 out of the 18 were also visitation-type calls, where he would drop off the kids five minutes late, and she would call the police and then they would come over and file a report. So, you know, that was, I believe, half of those.

BROOKS: Interesting. Now -- now, the two that you were witness -- that you say you witnessed, tell us about those.

CARCERANO: We were trying to -- it was myself and a neighbor. We were moving Drew`s stuff out of the house because he was moving into the house down the street, in which he lives now. And at that point, Kathy was kind of chasing him around the garage. It sounds funny, but it`s true. And she was hitting him with an electrical cord, an extension cord. And then, you know, she slapped him in the face right in front of me and the other neighbor. And when I said, Kathy, why are you doing that? And Drew said, Did you see that? Did you see that? And then she spit in his face. And you know, he was very calm and just said, Did you see that? And that was it, and we kept going about the business and getting the stuff out. That was the one altercation. The other one...

BROOKS: Now, when was that? What timeframe was that we`re talking about now?

CARCERANO: That`s -- it`s documented on the police report. I don`t know the exact month or anything. But that was the day that we were moving his stuff out of the house.


CARCERANO: And then the police were called and there was a report filed.

BROOKS: Yes. Sometimes, I can tell you, I`ve been on calls where they called -- I used to get a call when I was a patrol officer that said would be "assist with clothing (ph)." And sometimes they got very violent. So tell me about the other incident.

CARCERANO: The other incident, I was in my driveway in our family car. I was waiting for my wife and kids to come out. We were going to a family function. And I noticed Drew and Stacy pulled up in the driveway, and they were dropping off the kids. And I saw Kathy come running out of the front door of the house, and she lunged through the passenger window with her right fist. And that`s where Stacy was sitting. And at that (INAUDIBLE) I jumped out of my truck, went towards them. Kathy ran back in the house, and Drew said, Did you see that? I said, yes, what`s going on? And he called the police. And at that time, the garage door opened up. Kathy came running out of the garage again. Drew`s back was towards the house. And she got in the truck and she tried to back down the driveway with Stacy and the kids in the car. And...


BROOKS: So Kathleen jumped into the truck and backed down the driveway?

CARCERANO: Yes. Yes. And at that point, Drew took her out of the vehicle, placed her down into the grass and then put her -- put his knee on her and then lifted her arm up behind her back and cocked her wrist back. And it was subduing her. And she was yelling and screaming, Steve, get him off me. Steve, get him off me. And again, he was not, you know, using excessive force. He was keeping her subdued...

BROOKS: Right.

CARCERANO: ... like a police officer would. (INAUDIBLE) maybe I would have jumped in, but I want everybody to know that, you know, he was not beating her up or anything, which are some of the stories out there that`s ludicrous. And then my wife came over there. And Kathy was yelling (INAUDIBLE) to go inside (INAUDIBLE) her friend, which was in the house.

BROOKS: Right.

CARCERANO: It was a male. And I told my wife, as well as Drew said, Don`t go in there, because then it would have really gotten crazy, so...

BROOKS: Steve, we`re going to -- we`re going to -- we want to hear more about this because you`re filling in a lot of gaps on a story that we`ve heard about before.

But to tonight`s "Case Alert." A brand-new billboard goes up in the search for two missing Chicago sisters. Three-year-old and ten-year-old Diamond and Tionda Bradley vanished back in 2001. A mystery note left behind at their home claims they were headed to a nearby playground, but the girls were never seen again, the billboard asking for tips from anyone with information on the Bradley sisters, a $30,000 reward. Call the Chicago police at 312-746-9690.

And on a much lighter note, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. And coming soon, video of Nancy with the twins will make its debut on the baby blog. That`s all at And exciting news. Nancy`s back on Headline News on January 7 at 8:00 PM Eastern. So mark it down on your calendar.


BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. And that`s the big question, where is Stacy Peterson? We were just hearing from a friend of Drew`s, Steve Carcerano, a close friend of Drew who was kind of filling us in on the timeline of a number of stories that we heard before and filling in some gaps that we`d had never heard, before dealing with wife number three and the relationship that he had with wife number three, Kathleen Savio.

A lot of people want to weigh in and have some great questions. Let`s go right out to the phones. Jill from Alabama, thanks for joining us.


BROOKS: Good, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good, sir. You`re doing a great job covering this story.

BROOKS: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question I have is the individual or the family member who helped move the blue barrel, have they gotten any more information from that individual? Because it seems like that person might hold the key to a lot of information.

BROOKS: I want to go back out to Chicago. Joining us, Mary Frances Bragiel, reporter for WBBM Newsradio 780. Mary Frances, have we heard any more about this blue barrel, any more about this person?

BRAGIEL: Well, at this point, you know, Illinois State Police again are saying nothing to the media about it. Most of it`s coming out through leaks and sources. So they`ve already interviewed him at least once, and I imagine that they`ll continue to interview him, you know, and that`s why they`re focused -- again, in addition to the cell phone situation, they`re focused over in the ship canal and the blue container as a result of a lot of this person`s testimony.

BROOKS: There`s a lot of legal questions that we`ve been talking about tonight, besides hearing from Steve. Let`s go unleash the attorneys. Joining us from New York, Randy Carmel (ph), family attorney and child advocate. From Atlanta, Renee Rockwell. And from Chicago, Steve Greenberg.

Right to Renee. Should he have gotten his guns back? Yes or no.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Maybe not the guns, but Mike, come on, two cars and the computers -- how long do these people need it? We can put somebody on the moon, but all they have to do is copy that hard drive. And give him his car back. I think what`s happening now is law enforcement is going to be in a bad light now because it looks like they`re leaning on him now.

BROOKS: It`s not -- it`s not law enforcement, it`s the -- it`s the -- it`s the judge that says, You`re not getting it back.

ROCKWELL: I know, but the judge is saying that because the state won`t return it. The state could make a copy of it, Mike. And give the cars back. He`s renting a car, Mike. He`s got to get his kids back and back and forth. If everybody`s in such danger...

BROOKS: Renee, I was with the FBI`s evidence response team for a number of years. I`d want to keep that car, if I was an investigator, because there could be trace evidence. And right now, we don`t know where Stacy is. But we`ll get more arguments between us.

But to tonight`s "Case Alert." A Philadelphia news anchor who made headlines last spring for some racy bikini photos facing felony charges of assaulting a police officer, Alicia Lane (ph) taken into custody in the wee hours Sunday morning in Manhattan. According to police, Lane punched a female officer in the face, who then had to be treated at a hospital. The Emmy-Award-winning anchor pleaded not guilty and is due back in court in April.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I stand here today, I do not believe that Sergeant Peterson could receive a fair trial anywhere in the United States. The prejudicial reports are of such great extent, and repeated almost on a daily basis, that he could not receive a fair trial anywhere in the United States.


BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. There`s a lot of legal issues. I want to go right back out to our attorneys. From New York, Randy Carmel, family attorney and child advocate, Renee Rockwell from Atlanta and Steven Greenberg, defense attorney from Chicago. Steven, he says he cannot receive a fair trial anywhere. And there`s talk of a grand jury -- grand jury leaks, and he wants a special prosecutor. Is this reasonable?

STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is reasonable. None of this information should be coming out in the public. Whatever`s told to the grand jury, under our law here in Illinois, is supposed to be kept secret. This man is vilified and public enemy number one, and frankly, it`s a lot of speculation and innuendo, but there`s no evidence. You know, it was a blue barrel. Then it was a blue container. Pretty soon, it`ll be a blue bag. It`s by the canal, then it`s on an airplane. There`s no evidence. I haven`t heard one shred of evidence.

BROOKS: But they`re searching the canal. You`ve got the FBI, you`ve got other jurisdictions. You`ve got -- everybody`s searching this. They just don`t say, Oh, well, where are we going to go search today? Let`s go look at the canal. Something had to lead them there.

GREENBERG: Something probably did lead them there, but who knows what. Probably some rumor or innuendo. There`s no evidence.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be no resolution. This thing may become what they call either a cold case or -- I mean, as far as Kathy Savio, it already was a closed case. You know, they have reopened it and if they don`t come to any other conclusion, then it just continues as a closed case. As far as Stacy goes, we hope that she shows herself alive at some point in time and if not, we`ll continue searching. And I`m sure everybody else will too.


BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. Many, many legal questions still linger in the disappearance of Stacy Peterson. Where is Stacy Peterson? I want to go back out to Randi Karmel, family law attorney and child advocate.

Randy, we were talking about these 11 items, and these guns that have not been returned, and these grand juries leak that he said, you know, well, there`s all kinds of leaks coming out of this. Did you think and do you know if a special prosecutor -- how that would work?

RANDI KARMEL, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, the district attorney or the prosecutor would appoint a special prosecutor, usually not in that county, to go and run his or her own investigation. Of course, the defense wants that because any time you have a witness testifying more than one time, you have more to cross examine that person on for trial. So of course they would want a new grand jury proceeding. But it would only help the defense, and that`s why they`re asking for it. It would just be something that somebody gets appointed to it. That is all.

BROOKS: Now how long -- you know, this grand jury meets apparently every Wednesday, how long is this going to continue before they say, enough, we either have enough or we don`t have enough?

KARMEL: Until the prosecutor calls for a vote, it could go on and on and on. And at this point, I think we do have evidence, I think there is evidence, it may be circumstantial, but you have him at a canal, the attorney said there`s no evidence, you have him, a cell phone tower record that says he was near the canal at or near the date that Stacy was missing. I think that the more evidence that comes up and the more that they examine the cars and the guns and the knapsack and the computers and witnesses may come forward, the longer this is going to be. There`s no cut-off date, this is an investigation.

BROOKS: Renee Rockwell and Steve Greenberg, defense attorneys, you know, do you think -- Renee, he`s saying, this is a witch hunt. Do you think this is a witch hunt?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, Mike? She`s definitely probably not coming home. Will you at least agree to that? Would you agree to that, she`s probably not coming home?

BROOKS: Who knows? You know, I mean, we heard more details tonight from Steve Carcerano about what actually happened with wife number three, Kathleen Savio, you know, more information comes out every day about this case.

ROCKWELL: It is, and I`m glad to hear it, because it sure is filling in the blanks and he`s not looking like such a bad guy in relationship number three. But here you have a situation where there may not even be homicide, but once the D.A. pulls the trigger on this, once he indicts it, his defense attorney is going to ask for a speedy trial. And you are going to get one bit at that apple. If they find him not guilty because there`s not enough there, then that`s it and it`s over and he goes home and they have to leave him alone.

BROOKS: And then there`s always the possibility, Steve Greenberg, of her just coming, pulling up in front of the house, getting out and said, hey, I went for a powder for a while, I need to get my head together. I mean, you have -- there is a possibility her mother did that.

STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Wouldn`t that be great if that happened? What would he be able to do then? What would happen to poor Drew Peterson in that instance? Right now, as I said, they don`t have enough. They have a cell phone tower ping. Big deal. Technology is not perfect. They have no physical evidence. No one has leaked anything about any physical evidence. They have no statements. And I`m telling you, Mr. Peterson is one smart guy. I doubt if he left any tracks if he did anything. But I would like to see her pull-up in front of the house in a cab one day and say, here I am.

BROOKS: You know, I think everybody would. I would like to go back out, joining us by phone, a special guest from Bolingbrook, Illinois, Stephen Carcerano, a friend of Drew`s.

Steve, everybody wishes that she would just pull right up. What -- you and Drew, you know Drew, what has he said? Would he welcome her back? Because there has been talk, he said, ah, she went off with somebody else. Is there something we don`t know? Is there something that we`re not hearing that Drew knows about some other possible man that she might have gone off with?

STEVE CARCERANO, FRIEND OF DREW PETERSON: She has not told me about any specific man. He`s still sticking to his story that she was leaving him for somebody else. And you know, there`s -- he was at my house about a week-and-a-half ago and he said that to me and my wife. He says, you know, I sure hope that she would just show her face so that we can get done with this circus -- the media circus.

And again, he loves her very much. Does he want her back? She would have some explaining to do, but he does love her very much.

BROOKS: Very interesting that you say that he still says that he loves her very much. I want to go out to Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

Dr. Robi, thanks for being with us. We are getting towards the holiday season now. You`ve heard what Steve just had to say. He does, I still love her, I want her back, there might be some explaining to do. But now you know, we are hearing that the kids don`t even mention her. What do you take away from that?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Oh, I mean, the kids are very young, and so they might sense from their father that it`s not a topic that is OK to talk about. They might be afraid of their father. They could be grieving and not have the right words in order to express their grief, which is very typical of younger kids.

And also, I just want to put out there, I don`t doubt that Drew Peterson actually loves his wife or loved his wife, but you can kill someone you love because you`re enraged with them or you`re enraged with the parts of them that are not working for you. So that happens actually quite a lot. You can love and kill somebody.

BROOKS: I want to go back out to Steve Carcerano. Steve, do the children ever talk about her? And has Drew, has he put up any Christmas decorations? How is he handling the whole Christmas thing with the kids?

CARCERANO: Well, I`ve been in his house, like I said, and the 2- and 4-year-old, they don`t really say much about Stacy, they`re just running around playing. The two older ones, 13 and 14, Chris and Tommy, they were -- about two weeks ago I was at his house and we were watching the -- I can`t remember what program it was, but it had Stacy`s two sisters on there and they were talking about two different times, one that he supposedly pushed her down the stairs and another one he pushed her against the wall.

Both kids jumped off the couch and said, dad, that`s not true, we`ve never seen that happen. And he said, kids I just can`t win. So that type of stuff gets him mad because they are false accusations as far as he is concerned. And the kids were right there, I have seen the 13- and 14-year- old say that right in front of me, so.

BROOKS: Interesting, and 13- and 14-year-olds are very astute. And they know a lot more than we give them credit for many times. Right now I want to bring in from New York Dr. Lawrence Kobilinski, renowned forensic scientist and pathologist.

Dr. Kobilinski, they`re draining this canal again. They`re draining it now, they have been out there for a couple of weeks now, looking for evidence, looking for a car. Now, also, they will not return the two vehicles and the weapons. Do you think as -- do you think that they need to hang on to this evidence?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKI, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think as you pointed out, Mike, when you`re look for trace evidence and at the same time you don`t have a victim and you don`t have a crime scene, you`ve got to look at everything and leave no stone unturned. I think until they are finished with this investigation, until they know more or less, you know, what happened, they`re not going to turn this stuff over until a judge tells them to turn it over. We don`t know where Stacy is, but we sure know where Kathleen Savio is.

BROOKS: Well, again, correct me if I`m wrong, even if he wanted the cars back, I know when I -- I have processed many cars. They`re looking for fingerprints. They`re looking for either someone they don`t know, a fingerprint that -- just a strange fingerprint that you SuperGlu and sometimes a car aren`t in any condition to drive even after that.

KOBILINSKI: Well, I think you`re right. But they`re looking for more than fingerprints, they`re looking for DNA, they`re looking for any trace evidence, but more importantly, it has got to be evidence that indicates a crime of violence took place. Finding a hair rather than a clump of hairs would be meaningless. You find a clump of hairs, you could argue that it was pulled out. You find a speck of blood, it`s meaningless, but you find blood spatter, and that could add up to an understanding of what happened. So they`re looking for more than just trace evidence. They`re trying to determine if violence took place in that vehicle.

BROOKS: More on the Stacy Peterson case when we come back. But first, check out the latest message from Nancy about the twins. And coming soon, video of Nancy with the twins will be up on the Baby Blog. That`s at And remember, Nancy makes her much-anticipated return here on HEADLINE NEWS, January 7th, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, mark it down on your calendars and be with us.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Salaam alaykum, peace be with you from Anaconda (ph), Iraq. I`m trooper Bruce Wozniak (ph). I`m a trooper, Wisconsin Calvary, and a trooper in the state patrol. To my co-workers and my family in Wisconsin, happy holidays.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Will County judge rules Drew Peterson can have his iPods and some CDs back, two vehicles and 11 guns seized from Drew`s home however will stay with Illinois State Police. But the judge promised to periodically review the issue. Drew`s attorney, Joel Brodsky, calls the ruling disappointing but reasonable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why he would be needing that stuff at this point, and especially if he`s still a suspect in a possible homicide, you definitely wouldn`t want a person under that situation having guns.


BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. Well, the judge ruled today that Drew Peterson cannot have his two vehicles back, cannot have back his 11 guns. But there`s going to be another hearing on January 25th about getting his property back. I want to go right out to the phones. People have been holding for us.

Linda from Pennsylvania, thanks for sticking with us.

CALLER: Hi, Mike. Thanks for taking my call.

BROOKS: Thank you.

CALLER: I have three things I would like to ask. If they don`t find Stacy`s body, will he be entitled to an insurance policy?

BROOKS: That`s a great question. Randi Karmel, family law attorney and child advocate.

KARMEL: You would have to see whether she has an insurance policy first. And I think somebody would have to rule it a death at some point if there is a policy and you would need to see the terms of that policy. Do we know whether she has a policy?

BROOKS: We don`t know. That`s the question. And Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, is there a certain time that is kind of, as they say, OK? Well, she has never come back, they haven`t done anything with Drew. Again, no charges have been filed. But is there a time frame when they just go, OK, well, yes, we can say she`s gone?

ROCKWELL: Right. It would depend on the state. But what you have to look at is first what he`s going to is he would have to file a suggestion of death and then the insurance company is totally separate from any criminal court. They could go into court and say, we`re not paying you because you may have done that. That would not exclude a second beneficiary or it going to her estate and going to her children.

So I don`t see an insurance company wiggling out of this just because they`re going to suggest that Drew did this.

BROOKS: Steve Greenberg, defense attorney, what is the time frame in the state of Illinois? You practice in Chicago.

GREENBERG: Right. In Illinois, after seven years there is a presumption that somebody is in fact deceased. However you can go in ahead of time and ask a judge to make a factual determination. That`s what they just did, I don`t know if you recall, Steve Fossett, the balloonist who disappeared. That`s what they just did with him. And it has only been a few months. So you can do it sooner but the burden would be on Drew Peterson to prove something happened. And then the insurance company could still contest it.

BROOKS: Very interesting. That seven years is a long time unless something happens otherwise. I want to go back out, joining us by phone, Kathy Chaney, reporter from The Chicago Defender.

We have heard about and we have heard Drew Peterson talk about the media circus around the house. I was hearing that it kind of died down a little bit. Has it kind of cranked back up again or what is the scene out at his house right now, Kathy?

KATHY CHANEY, THE CHICAGO DEFENDER: There are camera crews out there because, you know, he has been going back to court back and forth now, so the interest has picked up a little bit. So we`re out there, we`re out there.

BROOKS: I want to go back out to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

Dr. Robi, you heard what Steve Carcerano said, that Drew Peterson, he kind of laughs when he`s nervous. I have heard that before. Do people really laugh when they`re nervous?

LUDWIG: Sure, I mean, there are all different kinds of nervous ticks, but the problem with Drew Peterson is it`s not just the nervous laugh that casts him in a bad light. He seems to be a legend in his own mind. He appears to like the cameras, he almost seems to have patterned himself after Scott Peterson, remember him? The other spousal killer. He even named his daughter Laci Peterson, after the whole Laci Peterson debacle and situation. So there`s something about this man that appears to like being in the limelight. He likes the attention and he has a long history of having negative relationships with women. He has a dead wife that was presumed a murder, so it doesn`t look good. It`s not just the laughter.

BROOKS: And again, talking about Scott Peterson versus Drew Peterson, Drew Peterson has not been charged, Scott Peterson is on death row at San Quentin. Back out to the phone, Robin in Texas, thanks for joining us.

CALLER: Yes. Thank you. Tell Nancy we love her show and congratulations.

BROOKS: We will, and join us on January 7th when she comes back.

CALLER: Oh, I will. I just have a couple of questions. Have the Bolingbrook Police Department or the Illinois State Police interviewed any of the officers who took the initial reports on the calls, the 18 calls from Kathleen Savio? Have they spoken to them? And are those people still working for Bolingbrook Police Department?

BROOKS: You know, I would hope as a former cop that they would, but going back out to Mary Frances Bragiel, the reporter for WBBM Newsradio 780, have we heard anything about the investigation with the initial officers who took the reports?

MARY FRANCES BRAGIEL, WBBM REPORTER: At this point, we haven`t heard anything, but I think because the investigators, they`re focused on finding Stacy Peterson and what exactly happened to her. I would imagine as this case progresses a little bit, they will then go back a little bit and figure out what exactly happened with this Kathleen Savio.

BROOKS: I want to go back out to Lawrence Kobilinski, forensic pathologist and scientist here in New York.

Dr. Kobilinski, the weapons. Everybody said, the 11 weapons, give him his weapons back. Now can they do a test fire and keep the rounds, or if they finally did, you know, God forbid they ever do find a body, would they want to do -- would they want to have the weapons there just -- other than going just a test fire?

KOBILINSKI: Sure, Mike, they certainly can do test fires. They can secure the bullets and the cartridge casings and then make a comparison if in fact Stacy had been shot. But it gets a little technical. It depends on the type of ammunition. So they might want to keep those weapons so that when they do test firing they can fire with the same ammunition that was used, if in fact the gun was used to shoot Stacy.

BROOKS: Interesting, that`s very, very interesting, you know, with forensics. And again, as a former investigator, I don`t think that I would want to give the weapon back myself. I want to go back out to Kathy Cheney, reporter at The Chicago Defender.

There has been talk that the FBI is investigating the death of Kathleen Savio, quickly, yes or no, have you heard about this?

CHANEY: Yes, they are looking into documents related to Savio`s death and they`re looking into probing her death. But the spokesperson for the FBI said that they`re not looking into a homicide, they`re not investigating a homicide.


BROOKS: Now over to HEADLINE NEWS` Glenn Beck.

Hey, Glenn, what`s up?

GLENN BECK, HOST, "GLEN BECK": Mike Huckabee and Barack Obama pulling away from the favorites in their respective parties. I`ll tell you why that symbolizes the growing disenfranchisement of ordinary Americans.

Also, an ordinary American who just wants his customers to speak English. He`s being called a hate monger for his troubles. We`ll talk to him about this insanity that is America in 2007.

And more proof that the U.S. prison system is fast becoming a breeding ground for homegrown terrorists, the story of two U.S.-born jihadists who learned their evil behind bars. Don`t miss it. Coming up.

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace. I want to go right back out to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part."

Dr. Robi, people come to you all the time with their problems, for advice. Now there was a reverend, Dr. Neil Schori who we have been hearing about who has been out there, out in the media, and talking to people about what he and Stacy Peterson used to discuss. Help me understand this. Is that ethically wrong?

LUDWIG: My understanding is that if you have a relationship, at least with a patient, even if that patient dies, there is a confidentiality rule that does not die with the patient. Now the only thing that I can guess is that for some reason, this priest or reverend or whatever he is, is frightened and he somehow feels that he`s going to be targeted. That`s the only thing I can think of.

BROOKS: You know, to me it just seems ethically wrong, but if he thinks there had been some crime committed, then I really don`t have a problem with that.

Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Eric Duckworth, just 26, from Plano, Texas. A squad leader training Iraqi police. He was awarded the Army Service Ribbon, and the National Defense Service Medal. A family man with a smile that lit up a room. He loved the Dallas Cowboys and NASCAR. He leaves behind parents, Ila (ph) and Michael (ph), and widow Sonya (ph), and children Madison (ph), Michael (ph), and Kaylin (ph). Eric Duckworth, an American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. But thank you at home for being with us. Remember, visit Nancy`s Baby Blog at See you back here tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern, until then, stay safe.