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Nancy Grace

Heath Ledger Autopsy Results Inconclusive

Aired January 23, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, developments by the hour in the death of Hollywood superstar Heath Ledger. A housekeeper finds Ledger unclothed, unresponsive, face down in bed there inside his exclusive Soho apartment. Reports emerge Ledger in full cardiac arrest when paramedics arrive.
Tonight, autopsy inconclusive. The drugs, over-the-counter, plus a total of six other prescriptions, reportedly including sleeping pills, Ambien, anti-anxiety meds, Xanax, Valium, all near the star`s body. Additional sensitive toxicology testing ordered by the ME. While Ledger`s family insisting the death was accidental, questions tonight swirling. How was Ledger alive and well at noon and dead in his bed just three hours later? At this hour, Ledger`s daughter, 2-year-old little Matilda, and her mother, Michelle Williams, set to touch down and head to their Brooklyn home.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiners said today there was no criminality. Of course, we have to wait for the toxicology report. That could be as long as 10 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a press conference earlier today, where they stated that a $20 bill was found near Heath Ledger`s body. The CBS affiliate in New York City is reporting that there was residue on that $20 bill and that packets of an unknown substance, an unknown drug, were also found. We also can tell you, by the way, there were several kinds of drugs in the room that were prescribed to Heath Ledger, including Xanax, Valium, Ambien and several medications prescribed in Europe.


GRACE: And tonight: A gorgeous young Marine vanishes into thin air, Camp Lejeune, eight months pregnant when she goes missing. The burned remains of 20-year-old Maria Lauterbach and her unborn child found in the back yard of suspect Marine Corporal Cesar Laurean.

Tonight: A grand jury meeting behind closed doors to hear evidence against the fugitive Marine, Cesar Laurean, as the FBI`s manhunt zeros in when a witness spots Laurean at a liquor store in Guadalajara, Laurean traveling undetected over 1,000 miles from North Carolina to Guadalajara. And tonight: The military conducts an unprecedented second autopsy. Why? To reconstruct Lauterbach`s skull and to test lung tissue from her unborn child to determine was that child alive when Lauterbach was bludgeoned to death.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We now know what the FBI had suspected for more than a week, Marine Corporal Cesar Laurean is in Mexico. A source tells CNN Laurean boarded a bus January 11 in Raleigh, North Carolina, then headed for Houston. From there, he took a bus to Mexico for about $170. He arrived in Guadalajara Sunday.

Before he crossed the border, this same source tells CNN, Laurean mailed three letters to his wife, Christina. Our source says the first mailed letter was sent after Laurean dropped his truck at a motel. In each of the new letters, Laurean told his wife he loves her and cares deeply about their daughter, just 18 months. We`ve also learned a shoe found at Laurean`s house, where authorities believe Lauterbach was killed, is being tested at the state crime lab. Investigators believe a substance on the shoe may be blood.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First tonight: The mystery mounts in the sudden death of Hollywood superstar 28-year-old Heath Ledger.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heath Ledger was only 28, his Hollywood star on the rise and so much to live for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, Heath`s family, confirm the very tragic, untimely and accidental passing of our dearly loved son, brother, and doting father of Matilda.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latest on the death of Heath Ledger. New York police have just confirmed they`re testing a $20 bill found rolled up in his apartment. They wouldn`t confirm if a substance was on it, but they did say they decided to test it because of the way it was folded or rolled. They also said no illegal drugs were found in the apartment. Investigators also said Ledger was found face down in bed in a so-called normal position. He was not at the foot of the bed, as earlier indicated. They also couldn`t confirm if he suffered pneumonia. Earlier today, a spokeswoman for the New York medical examiner said the initial autopsy came back inconclusive. It would take another 10 days to narrow down exactly what killed him.


GRACE: Why was a bill rolled up there in Ledger`s apartment? Were there actually packets of drugs around Ledger? Many of the initial reports now have been contradicted. But what do we know?

Richard Roth joining us, CNN senior correspondent, live at the Soho apartment where Ledger`s body was found. Welcome, Richard. What are today`s developments?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest development tonight, Nancy, is that the New York City Police department is saying that there was no drug residue found on that rolled-up, folded-up $20 bill, despite some widespread assertions yesterday, or suspicions, New York City deputy police commissioner Paul Browne telling CNN there was no drug residue, no illegal drugs, according to police officials with access to the investigation, found at all in the apartment.

But as you mentioned, prescription drug medication, sleep medication, and other media reporting possibly some anti-anxiety medication, not confirmed by CNN at all. The apartment not filled with drugs strewn about, bottled, capped pills, according to police commissioner Kelly earlier in the day. Nothing really out of the ordinary, no sign of any suicide, and from the city medical examiner`s office an inconclusive autopsy report. Toxicology studies will have to go on for 10 days to two weeks -- Nancy.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. Mike Brooks, I know that they are reporting that no drug residue was found on a rolled-up bill. But tell me, Mike Brooks, you`re a former fed with the FBI, why else do you roll up a bill like this, like a straw?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s a good question, Nancy, you know, and if he had to use that for some kind of drug use, snorting cocaine, other drugs, then there would have been some residue. But you know, we also heard Commissioner Ray Kelly today say that there wasn`t any illegal drugs in the apartment. And my sources last night, after we got done with the show, were telling me that it looked like just an ordinary death investigation. There was nothing extraordinary. Everything was in the bottles...

GRACE: Ordinary. Ordinary. So Mike Brooks, when you find an unreceptive -- an unresponsive body...

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: ... face down in the bed, you call Mary-Kate Olsen?

BROOKS: No. That`s -- you know, I don`t know where...


BROOKS: ... people learned, you know, to call 911. You know, my -- the little kids who live next door know how to call 911, and these women didn`t. There was a delay in response. Whether or not it would have made any difference, Nancy, we don`t know. But still, it would have given him a little bit of a chance.

GRACE: Wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Let`s get back to Richard Roth, joining us there in Soho. Richard, around noon, I think around 12:30, the housekeeper came in. She had a key of her own. She let herself in. She apparently could hear Ledger inside his bedroom, door closed, snoring. He was alive and well. At 3:00 o`clock he`s dead. Give me the timeline as you know it, Richard.

ROTH: A police official with access to the investigation says around noon, the housekeeper, Teresa Solomon, went into Ledger`s room to change a lightbulb. Then shortly -- about less than two hours later, this masseuse, Diana Wolozin, entered. She had an appointment. But she went in and Ledger was unresponsive. She even set up a massage table, but then checked on him. He was unresponsive. Then, as you mentioned, she calls Mary-Kate Olsen, a young actress, because Olsen and Ledger were friends. And then additional security people known to Olsen were called over.

Then eventually, 15 minutes later, according to police officials, from the time that he was discovered unresponsive, after the Olsen phone call, were the 911 call and the police responded. The masseuse tried to perform CPR on Ledger in the bed. Yesterday, we said he was found at the foot of the bed, on the floor. Now they`re confirming he was in the bed, face down, unclothed. All witnesses, the housekeeper, the masseuse, the Olsen security people, were described as cooperative by the police.

GRACE: You know, I want to go out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and expert in this field of toxicology and pathology, joining us from Michigan. Dr. Morrone, the time that was wasted, the time that was wasted, coming in, not one but two phone calls to Mary-Kate Olsen, one of the Olsen twins -- who, don`t get me wrong, I hold them in high esteem. But why do you call somebody that could be absolutely no help? I mean, have you seen this before in celebrity deaths? I mean, look at Anna Nicole Smith, for Pete`s sake!

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: What you see is people look around and say, Is there something incriminating? Do we need to clean this up? Or there`s confusion and panic and they don`t know what to do because of the celebrity status.

GRACE: Out to Kareen Wynter, CNN correspondent. Kareen, shed some light on today`s developments.

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, people were really waiting to find out what the cause of death was. And you know, first of all, I want to clarify the $20 bill. It was inconclusive whether or not it was linked to any drugs, any residue. But the bottom line I want to really hammer home is, you know, we`re not going to find out perhaps the cause of death, Nancy, for the next couple of weeks. They`re going to be doing testing on tissue samples. They`re going to see what kind of chemical substance, for instance, may have been in Ledger`s body.

But it`s hard to listen to this. And you know, I think we`re looking into it too much. My goodness, this is a celebrity. And in our world, sure, we would have picked up the phone, called 911, moved heaven and earth to get some sort of help to the scene. But these celebrities, they teach those around them, they instruct them, to be very guarded. They`re private. They don`t want their lives, you know, showcased or broadcast. And that`s perhaps what this masseuse was doing, panicked in the state that she was in by not immediately calling 911.

I just want to make sure that, you know, we don`t look into that too much, that, you know, she didn`t know what she was doing, even though we would have probably reacted differently.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Edward in Texas. Hi, Edward. Edward, are you with me? I can hear you, but you can`t hear me. Let`s go on to April in Ohio. Hi, April.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wanting to know how long he -- do they know how long he was dead before the housekeeper and the masseuse had actually found him?

GRACE: Richard Roth, what do we know?

ROTH: Well, the timeline, according to officials, I believe they found, after 3:00 o`clock, when all these personnel came into the apartment, they said he was unresponsive. They put it as a 15-minute gap, I believe, from the time the phone calls to Mary-Kate Olsen were made and then to 911, summoning emergency rescue people, who also tried to revive him and couldn`t do it. And that was at about 3:30 New York time in the afternoon.

So you have about, I think, an hour-long period of commotion, chaos and concern, from the masseuse trying to revive him and then finding him not responsive in the bed to finally saying that they could not revive him with qualified New York City medical personnel on the scene.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of Atlanta, Renee Rockwell. Out of New York, defense attorney Doug Burns. To Renee, even if there had been some residue on the bill, that really would have meant nothing. I learned this in one of the first cases, dope cases I tried with a drug dog, who ran into an apartment and immediately hit on about -- I think it was about $80,000 worth of dollar bills in the closet. And the drug dog hit on them. Well, I immediately started talking about that and questioning about that. The cop witness later pulled me aside and said, You know, a lot of dollar bills, maybe one in your wallet, may have drug residue on it. So that really means nothing.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. No, a dog can certainly hit on any currency that`s running around Atlanta, at least. But Nancy, why would this dollar bill be rolled up in that straw-like fashion, if it, in fact, was? It just tells me not the dollar bill but the fact that a friend was called before 911 was called -- that`s suspicious to me.

GRACE: To Doug Burns. Doug, the reality is we don`t have any suggestion at this juncture that there was an intentional suicide. The family`s insisting this is an accident. When it comes down to, for instance, life insurance policies, what difference would it make to the daughter, 2-year-old Matilda?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, that`s an excellent point, of course. If there`s an establishment that it`s a suicide, very often, the coverage is declined and there`s no payment. And that`s a very important point. And by the way, it would seem to me that the family may want to do their own autopsy, as well. You may see that, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Betsy in Indiana. Hi, Betsy.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was going to say that you don`t have -- the drugs that they found in his system, I take them, and I`m on a sleep-app (ph) machine right now because you skip breaths when you`re on those medications. They have to take blood tests so often to see what level of the drug is in your system. And he could have went to sleep and never woke up because I do the same thing. I sleep, and when I wake up, I still have the evidence around me.

GRACE: You know, Betsy, that is an excellent point. I`ve been doing a lot of research, especially on the pill Ambien. And I want to go out to Carlos Diaz with "Extra." There was apparently Ambien, over-the-counter sleep medication, anti-anxiety medication. If he had taken pills prescribed to him legitimately, it could have had this result.

CARLOS DIAZ, "EXTRA": Yes. I mean, I`m not a doctor, I`m an entertainment reporter. But I mean, of course, if these pills are taken, you know, in some kind of cocktail form.

But real quick -- and I know you don`t want to get off topic -- let`s just chill out real quick on this whole -- you know, we`re saying he called Mary-Kate -- or the masseuse called Mary-Kate Olsen, and that`s suspicious. Let`s relax here. She called Mary-Kate Olsen, and what she said to Mary- Kate Olsen was, He`s unconscious, what should I do? She didn`t say, He`s dead, what should I do? Then the masseuse called Mary-Kate back moments later and said, I think he`s dead, I`m calling 911. So this is not -- let`s just chill out...

GRACE: No, Carlos.


DIAZ: ... right back into the whole Anna Nicole...

GRACE: No, no, no, no, no. No. He`s dead. Let`s don`t relax. If his...


GRACE: I will finish! If his life could have been saved and he lost his life during the interim -- we don`t know the timeline yet -- then I find that to be a very vital fact. When somebody is found unresponsive, face down in their bed, you don`t waste time...

DIAZ: But if you`re saying it`s a conspiracy theory...

GRACE: No, nobody said anything about a conspiracy but you!

DIAZ: No, people are saying, I find this to be very odd -- I mean...

GRACE: No! Who said that?

DIAZ: People on your show moments ago. What I`m saying is...

GRACE: Oh, well, Carlos, I don`t know what planet you came from, but when you -- if I find you face down in the studio, trust me, friend, I`m calling 911. I`m not calling the Olsen twins, OK? And I think you`d be happy with that.

DIAZ: I understand that. But look at the actions of the masseuse before that. She went into the room and set up the massage table, thinking he was asleep the entire time. She rolled him over and tried to wake him up, and called Mary-Kate Olsen and said, He`s not responding. Moments later, she called 911. Seven minutes later, 911 was there in the apartment, performing CPR on him. So before we get into this big thing of, you know, it was all this time period between the call...

GRACE: I believe that Richard Roth established exactly what the timeline was. So your point is?

DIAZ: My point is, we shouldn`t jump to conclusions and think there`s some kind of -- you know, there`s some kind of conspiracy when you`re talking about...

GRACE: What conspiracy? You really think we`re suggesting the Olsen twins are in on a conspiracy to kill Heath Ledger?

DIAZ: No. What I`m saying is before we say that stars react differently. You know, it was a situation where the masseuse called Mary- Kate Olsen because, you know, he was, you know, unconscious -- because -- she didn`t say, Oh, he`s dead, you know? When she said, I think he`s dead, she called 911 immediately.

GRACE: OK, thanks, Carlos. Out to the lines. Colton in Canada. Hi, Colton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just wondering if and when they`re going to have, like, a funeral for him.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. Richard, what do we know about the funeral?

ROTH: Well, we know that the city medical examiner office in New York has said it was turning over the body of Heath Ledger to the well-known funeral home, the Frank Campbell (ph) funeral home on Madison Avenue on New York`s Upper East Side. And the funeral home said it will be conducting a funeral service. It had been in contact with the family. Obviously, the date and time of this ceremony, which will be quite a scene, is totally not clear yet with that delay on waiting for toxicology reports and the concerns of the family.

President Bush had an anti-drug ceremony planned today, by the way, at the White House, which was postponed because of the Ledger mystery death.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, Heath`s family, confirm the very tragic, untimely and accidental passing of our dearly loved son, brother, and doting father of Matilda. Heath has touched so many people on so many different levels during his short life, but few had the pleasure of truly knowing him. He was a down-to-earth, generous, kindhearted, life-loving, unselfish individual, extremely inspirational to many. Please now respect our family`s need to grieve and come to terms with our loss privately. Thank you.


GRACE: The mystery still surrounding the death of superstar Heath Ledger. Right now, autopsy inconclusive. And very often, the way a suicide is determined -- was there a note? Was it an intentional taking of multiple drugs? Had a will been recently done? Behavioral evidence can suggest a suicide. Right now, we don`t see that.

I want to go back out to the lines. Anne-Marie in Texas. Hi, Anne- Marie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your beautiful babies.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Now, if we find that prescription drugs become the cause for Heath`s death, could Heath`s doctors be prosecuted over -- for overprescribing drugs to the actor?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Renee Rockwell and Doug Burns. Renee, any possibility?

ROCKWELL: Oh, absolutely. You can -- they`re doing that right now with the steroid cases down in Georgia and the wrestler, Nancy.

GRACE: Doug?

BURNS: Yes, I think people have to keep in mind, Nancy, you can use prescriptions legally or you can abuse them illegally. And if a physician, as Renee points out, prescribes a ridiculously high amount, as we did see in the wrestling case, you could certainly see that. It`s a very good question.

GRACE: To Kareen Wynter. Have any charges been handed in in the Anna Nicole Smith case?

WYNTER: Any charges? Not yet. We`re actually waiting to see -- you know, that went through the DA`s office, and at that point, Nancy, there were some speculation that there were, you know, doctors out there who may have been, you know, funneling drugs to her, but nothing new to report.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In an interview, Ledger spoke eerily about death and Matilda.

HEATH LEDGER, ACTOR: I feel good about dying now because I feel like I`m alive in her, you know? But at the same hand, you don`t want to die because you want to be around for the rest of her life.


GRACE: We have just learned that 2-year-old Matilda, the daughter of Heath Ledger, and her mother, Michelle Williams, have just touched down in the New York area, heading to their Brooklyn home. She was in Sweden filming, now home at the news of the death of Heath Ledger.

Back out to the lines. April in Indiana. Hi, April.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s good to have you back.

GRACE: Good to be back, friend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a comment...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... about the $20 bill that was rolled up. I`m a nurse. And we see a lot -- patients will do that and snort their prescription medications.

GRACE: Oh, really?


GRACE: You mean grind up the prescription medication and snort it?


GRACE: Interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It gives them a quicker high.

GRACE: And to Dr. Morrone. I wonder if possibly tests for prescription drugs were not run on the dollar bill.

MORRONE: They`ll send it to a lab that`ll do mass spectroscopy, and it`ll be prescription and illegal drugs, anything that comes up.

GRACE: OK, with the mass spec. You`re right. To Mike Brooks, Carlos Diaz is pooh-poohing the whole delay discussion. What do you think?

BROOKS: Well, you know, OK, we`re not talking about conspiracy here, Nancy. There`s nothing suspicious about it. It`s not suspicious, it`s stupid, 26 minutes in delaying in calling 911. And after she called 911, the ambulance was there in seven minutes. It`s not suspicious, it`s downright stupid!



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody knows really how movie star Heath Ledger died. The New York medical examiner says initial autopsy results so far are inconclusive. The Australian-born actor`s body was found in his apartment yesterday afternoon. He`s 28 years old. The medical examiner will perform more toxicology tests, says that could take a while. In fact, those results might not be available for a couple weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s another issue as to whether or not there are any illegal drugs found. That`s not the case. There were no illegal drugs found. There were prescription bottles. All of the pills were in the bottle. There were some reports that they were strewn. That`s not the case. The bottles were capped or sealed.


GRACE: Breaking news. Michelle Williams now on her way home. She has just touched down in the New York area. With her Ledger`s 2-year-old daughter, Matilda. The two traveling from Sweden. She was filming there. Coming home upon the news of the death of Heath Ledger.

Down to Dr. Harris Stratyner, addiction specialist.

Sir, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Here we`ve got a mixture, a cocktail of sorts of various prescription and over-the-counter drugs, sleeping medications including Ambien, anxiety drugs. How do those commingle?

STRATYNER: Well, certainly there`s a synergistic effect whenever you take multiple drugs. We heard that there`s - tons of dioxins, Xanax, things of that nature, and along with Ambien and possibly also anti- depressant medication. And you`ve got to be very careful, and a licensed psychiatrist or psycho-pharmacologist would have informed Mr. Ledger that there are certain ways to take those medications. However, we don`t know, Nancy, if he may have seen multiple doctors. We heard that he got some prescriptions from Europe.

We also need to focus on the facts. Certainly, you know, if I`m ever faced down I want you by my side. I don`t see it as a conspiracy theory. But people panic and people in the entertainment world have to watch out for their image. But you certainly -- seconds tick away, and you`ve got to really quickly get to someone. Also, there was -- I thought I heard a report that he might have had pneumonia. So all of these things can result in a cardiac and lung problems and suppression, and it`s just a real tragic thing.

And we have to think of his family now, how his daughter, when she`s growing up, will be dealing with this, how the woman that he broke up with will be dealing with it, his family back in Australia, his fans, and we need to really try to understand the process that`s going to take place now in terms of grief and understanding that regardless of how he died we`ve got to be sensitive and aware as a nation.

GRACE: Well put, Dr. Stratyner.

I want to go out to Carlos Diaz with "Extra."

Carlos, in a recent interview, he actually addressed his use of Ambien, a very common sleep aid.

CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, EXTRA: Yes, you know, he talked about his role in the new "Dark Knight" movie, the new "Batman" movie.


DIAZ: .where he plays the Joker, and he really threw himself into this role, and he says that because he threw himself so much into this role and he described the role as a psychopathic mass murdering schizophrenic clown, since he threw himself so much into this role he wasn`t sleeping at night. He said he was getting one two, hours of sleep a night and he confirmed that he took one Ambien, didn`t have any effect on him, so he took two Ambien, woke up an hour later.

So obviously, two Ambien weren`t helping him. And you have to wonder where it goes from there.

GRACE: To Dr. William July, personality psychologist and author of "Behavior of Interest."

Dr. July, thank you for being with us. I`m just wondering how all the jetsetting -- and it was for work, from Australia to London, back to the U.S., working really long hours, being in a plane with the recirculation of air and then taking these various drugs, how would that affect a normal 28- year-old with a normal metabolism?

DR. WILLIAM JULY, PERSONALITY PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OR "BEHAVIOR OF INTEREST": Nancy, it`s great to be back with you, first of all.

GRACE: Thank you.

JULY: Stress, a heightened sense of awareness, this heightened -- when your personality is under a lot of pressure, you get into almost this fight or flight mentality that we`ve talked about before. And when you`re in that, when your adrenaline is high like that, mixing with all -- I`m not a medical doctor, but when you start mixing drugs with this heightened sense of awareness, always being this psychologically heightened sense, you`re in a situation in which your normal good judgment is broken down.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Bruce in New Jersey. Hi, Bruce.

BRUCE, FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi. How are you this evening?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

BRUCE: Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

BRUCE: Nancy, I`m wondering if his family, given that they don`t have citizenship in this country, is legally able to claim his body and if they can`t who can. And as for Heath Ledger himself, I`m wondering if he had dual citizenship between here and his native Australia.

GRACE: Richard Roth, what do we know about the family claiming his body and anything you could shed light upon regarding citizenship?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not too clear on that. He was an Australian citizen, 28 years old. I`m not sure whether he was indeed a dual citizenship. And we`d have to discuss also the nature of the current relationship between him and Michelle Williams and, of course, whether there was a will and just what is indeed going to happen. I think it`s going to be part at the moment of this short-term mystery surrounding this actor.

GRACE: To Christina in Missouri. Hi, Christina.


GRACE: I`m good, dear.

CHRISTINA: My question is with actors and actresses playing such emotional roles and they play back-to-back characters what kind of effect will it have mentally on someone like him? And then also, are there like therapists available for them when they`re done with the movie, when they`re transitioning from different personalities and things like that?

GRACE: Dr. July, what about it?

JULY: It`s a great question. When actors -- we hear about actors throwing themselves into these roles, and they become these -- they take on these personas. And they really do need people to sort of help them come back out of those modes. Again, now we`ve mixed that with the stress that he`s been under. We mix that with the possibility that he`s been ill. We mix that with the drugs that he`s been taking.

GRACE: Right.

JULY: And now you`ve got a very dangerous mixture.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns.

Renee, you were there during many of the trials that I would try. In between trials I`d be -- a lot of times hardly even speak. I would be so exhausted and so into the trial. Outside of that you`re like a shell. And I wonder what it would be like for him taking on role after role after role.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, you have to do that if you want to do well, right?


ROCKWELL: Whether you`re practicing law, prosecuting defendants, or even acting. And of course that would be Dr. July`s specialty. But it has to be something that besides the fatigue because it`s such hard work getting into those modes.

GRACE: Exactly. Exactly.

And to you, Doug Burns, the issue brought up by the caller regarding someone without U.S. citizenship claiming the body.


GRACE: I mean, I don`t see any problem with him entering the U.S. to claim a body.

BURNS: No, not at all. While it was very technical the question, the fact is they would arrange for visas very quickly and allow them to do that. I also did want to just say what a great analogy you drew because when you do a trial it`s like a project, like a movie, and boy, when you`re done you are absolutely shot.

GRACE: And of course the first people there on the scene were the housekeeper, who had come in according to an appointment and a masseuse who had also come in according to appointment. Nearly a 26-minute delay before 911.

Everyone, shifting gears, APB, all points bulletin for special moms and dads. If you know a parent who`s an inspiration to others, get your camcorder, go to, click on "i-Report," and enter that deserving parent into the "Extraordinary Parent" contest.

When we come back, a secret grand jury meeting to hear evidence on fugitive Marine Cesar Laurean. The manhunt in high gear south of the border near Guadalajara, Mexico.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search continues for the Marine accused of murder. We have new photos. They gave us a better look at Laurean`s tattoos. You can check them out right here. The FBI says there`s a phoenix rising from ashes on his left arm. And it`s a pretty large tattoo as well. Also what appears to be a skull over another image. That is on his right arm. So you might be able to identify him that way.


GRACE: The latest developments in the death of Maria Lauterbach, the 20-year-old Marine found in the backyard of a co-Marine. Her unborn child tonight the center of a controversy. An unprecedented second autopsy conducted by the military. Why? To reconstruct Lauterbach`s skull. And second, to determine if the unborn child had breathed. It is taking on extreme significance.

Out to Susan Candiotti, CNN national correspondent. What`s the latest, Susan?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest on this military autopsy is that we have learned about preliminary findings. According to the prosecutor, the district attorney in this case, the preliminary findings indicate that that unborn fetus was not alive. However, additional tests are being conducted to determine whether there is any evidence of oxygen in a sample of lung tissue. If they find that to be the case, that could be very important because it would mean that the fetus was alive and that Laurean could face additional murder charges for the death of that unborn child.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, what this says to me is that it sounds as if the child had been expelled from the body. If the child was still in utero, they would not be trying to determine if it had breathed or not.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: That`s exactly right, Nancy. You`ll recall when I first started talking about the scene there at that fire pit and they were talking about apparently a body part of the baby that was outside and burned. You know - - how did it get outside of that body was -- it`s just -- that`s exactly what they`re trying to find out, to see whether or not it was born. It doesn`t look like it was now. But still they`re going to conduct all these tests just to make sure.

GRACE: And back out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, toxicologist and pathologist, why reconstruct the skull?

DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, they want to see if there were multiple images that were from the indentations, what part of the crowbar, the claw or the shaft, and that could add malice to this crime.

GRACE: Well, the reality is, out to the lawyers, Renee and Doug, whether the child was born, constituting a second murder.

BURNS: Right. Right.

GRACE: .or whether there was numerous blows, the reality is if this guy is extradited, Renee, from Mexico, we`re not getting the death penalty. The D.A.`s already entered a deal.

BURNS: Right. Right.

GRACE: So the reality is what difference will it make in court, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you can certainly waive a death penalty, but it would make a big difference if this guy -- sorry, I`m going to have to wrap this. But if this guy killed two people, that`s a big difference, between two and one.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: Well, I agree with that. But the punishment is never going to be more than life without parole.

To Doug Burns.


GRACE: We all recall the case of the Max Factor makeup heir Andrew Luster.

BURNS: Yes, of course.

GRACE: .who was wanted for, I believe, multiple rapes...


GRACE: .using gamma hydroxybutyrate, the GHB date rape drug. He went in to Mexico. He was retrieved by the bounty hunter Dog. We`re all familiar with Dog Chapman.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: Well, Chapman actually faced charges for that.

BURNS: Sure.

GRACE: So what would stop a bounty hunter or someone else going in to Mexico and bringing this guy back so he could face the death penalty?

BURNS: That is a phenomenal question. In the case of DEA agent Kiki Camarena, you may remember, they went in and kidnapped a physician who kept him alive so they could torture him more. And the U.S. Supreme Court said that the jurisdiction was fine. Ironically you could face kidnapping there as Dog Chapman did. But they could go in and kidnap him. Great point.

GRACE: You know, I want to go now to Harris Whitbeck, CNN Mexico City bureau chief, joining us from Guadalajara, Mexico.

Believe it or not, everybody, no offense, Harris, but Harris and his crew actually beat the FBI to vital witnesses placing the fugitive Marine there in a Guadalajaran liquor store.

Harris, what is the latest?

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN MEXICO CITY BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Nancy, we spoke to the family members again, spent a couple of hours with his cousin. He said that they`re beginning to get a little bit nervous because there has been more attention from the press now, a couple of other networks and some newspapers came by to visit them after a report came out on CNN.

However, he did say that no authorities have contacted them yet. And he said he had no idea if they were going to. We spoke to a local reporter here in Guadalajara who normally covers the police beat. He -- we asked him to ask his sources in the local police whether there was an investigation going on and whether there was any indication that an investigation would begin, and he told us that apparently the state attorney general`s office got word from the federal attorney general`s office in Mexico City that the United States was asking for cooperation.

He said that they did not ask for -- they did not issue a formal arrest warrant. So he said that basically what they can do is they can not go out and launch an investigation, they cannot go out and proactively look for this guy, but if they happen to come across him, if they happen to pick him up on a speeding ticket, whatever reason that they happen to come across him, then they can let the authorities know that he`s here and he can be detained for some time. But there is no official ongoing investigation going on at this point.

GRACE: Incredible.

To Lori Mack, North Carolina correspondent with Westwood One Metro Networks.

Welcome back, Lori. What can you tell me about this guy`s tattoos?

LORI MACK, N.C. CORRESPONDENT, WESTWOOD ONE METRO NETWORKS: Well, they have tattoos of him. One is -- it shows a phoenix rising out of ashes, and that`s on Laurean`s left upper arm. Also, there`s a skull that is covered -- it`s covered over some other images on his right upper arm. But that`s all the information that I have on the tattoos. And they believe that that can help identify Laurean.

Also, Nancy, I wanted to go back to the possibility that the fetus was breathing.


MACK: In North Carolina they do not recognize the death of an unborn child.

GRACE: Right. As a separate case.

MACK: .in a murder case.

GRACE: Yes. We know that.

MACK: So it will be interesting to see what happens if that is the case.

GRACE: Absolutely. The bill, which is a federal bill, the Lacy and Conner Bill, allow it to be considered as two separate homicides. That is not the case in North Carolina, as we have earlier established.

What`s interesting and extremely ironic about the tattoos on Laurean`s body, the skull, of course, but the phoenix rising out of the ashes. That has been around for thousands of years, that legend is a supernatural creature, a bird that once it appears to be dead, once that it`s dead gets a second chance and then lives another 500 years.

The point is Laurean down for the count makes it to Mexico. Will he totally abscond and never face justice on these charges?

I want to go out to the lines. Kay in North Carolina. Hi, Kay.

KAY, FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. You look great and congratulations on your twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

KAY: I have a question going back to how Maria actually ended at Laurean`s home. Did she get a room? She had a restraining order against him. So I can`t see her actually going there. Or was she lured there? (INAUDIBLE) do that?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Susan Candiotti, I know that a shoe was found indicating some type of a struggle. Yes, no, do we know how she got there?

CANDIOTTI: Do we know how the shoe got there?

GRACE: No, how she got there.

CANDIOTTI: Oh, I`m sorry. How she got there. No, we`re still waiting for all those details.


CANDIOTTI: Other than the fact that he says that she was in the house that night, of course.

GRACE: Out to Omar Ashmawy, military legal analyst. What`s stopping the military from going and getting this guy out of Mexico themselves?

OMAR ASHMAWY, MILITARY LEGAL ANALYST: Well, good evening, Nancy. The biggest problem is that the military doesn`t cross international borders very easily and it`s best placed with the FBI that has the resources in place to do that.

GRACE: And also, there was a rumor that a military op to get him back had been considered but was ruled out. What do you think about that?

ASHMAWY: Well, like I said, I mean, the Marines crossing the border into Mexico would cause quite a stir.


GRACE: Out to Susan Candiotti. Susan, when is the grand jury meeting?

CANDIOTTI: In special session starting at 9:00 tomorrow morning Eastern Time. And evidently, the district attorney doesn`t think their work will take very long. He believes -- he must believe that he must have probable cause at this point to bring first-degree murder charges. He won`t say what else. But there could also be the possibility of injury to a pregnant woman in North Carolina. That`s a possibility.

GRACE: Interesting, Susan. A completely different charge than we had expected. Back out.

CANDIOTTI: Right. And the district attorney is already planning a press conference for 11:00 tomorrow morning.


CANDIOTTI: .to announce the decision of the grand jury.

GRACE: You know, you could bring an indictment with one witness. I predict they bring on the detective to summarize all the evidence to that secret grand jury and then an indictment will be handed down tomorrow. If a death penalty is sought, that can be announced much later.

Back out to Omar Ashmawy, military legal analyst, I guess this is the end of any rape case pursued by the military.

ASHMAWY: Not necessarily, actually. I mean, the military is absolutely going to seek jurisdiction for the murder. Interestingly enough, the military does recognize the death of a fetus as murder. So it`s very possible that the Marine Corps may be best -- to actually charge him despite the indictment.

GRACE: I think there`s going to be a jurisdiction problem because I think the murder occurred, the alleged murder, occurred off base. But you may very well be right. Thank you for joining us.

ASHMAWY: Well -- no problem.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Air Force Master Sergeant Thomas Crowell, 36, Neosho, Missouri, killed Iraq, awarded the Purple Heart, bronze star, and Air Force achievement medal, also served Saudi Arabia, Korea, and Somalia. With a smile that lit up the room, he loved traveling, trying new foods, always put others first dedicated to family. Leaving behind parents Peggy and Charles, three brothers, two sisters, grieving widow Carol, 9-year-old son Eric, 2-year-old son Ian.

Thomas Crowell, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but our biggest thank you is to you for inviting all of us into your homes. And a special good night to friends of the show Fenton and Myrle, celebrating their 65th anniversary.

See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then good night, friend.