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Nancy Grace
3-Month-Old Infant Killed, Dumped on Road
Aired January 30, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Galveston, Texas, a tiny 3-month-old boy wearing nothing but a "blues clues (ph)" diaper found lying by the side of an isolated boulevard, a carseat not far from the baby`s body. A 3-month- old baby? They`re this big. Was the little baby thrown out of a car? Tonight, police on the lookout for 21-year-old Travis Mullis, the baby`s own father. And somebody tell me, why is Mom still at the police station?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His name is Travis Mullis. We`re calling him a person of interest. He`s the last person that was seen with the child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man in Galveston, Texas, spotted what he thought was a doll on the side of the road. When he got closer, he realized it was a baby`s body lying face down in the grass. The child`s carseat was about 30 feet away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never seen nothing like this before. Oh, my God, it`s a baby! God! Oh (DELETED)!
911 OPERATOR: It`s OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody hit it on the head! I`ve never seen nothing like this before. Oh, it`s horrible! God, it`s horrible!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cause of death was severe trauma to the head. The death occurred prior to the baby being tossed on the grassy area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, breaking developments in the search for missing Stacy Peterson, the 23-year-old mom vanishing from upscale Chicago suburbs, death threats surface against suspect/husband Drew Peterson. Once again, Peterson discovers the evidence, the threats allegedly made after Peterson`s caught bragging about so-called secret admirers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drew Peterson is getting death threats, and his attorney feels Peterson`s life is in danger. Peterson`s attorney, Joel Brodsky, says Drew Peterson could be targeted by a deranged person. Peterson the only suspect in his fourth wife, Stacy`s, disappearance remains unmoved as threats on his life continue to come in. Peterson says he also gets love letters from admirers, but love is the furthest thing from the many writers who wish Peterson nothing but death!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: A baby boy found on the side of an isolated road, the 911 call just released as we go to air.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Galveston 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh! Oh, God! I`m up here driving with my wife, and I found a baby. I think it`s a baby! (INAUDIBLE) we`re up here on -- we`re on Cherry Hill (INAUDIBLE) Oh, I can`t believe this!
911 OPERATOR: OK, you`re on Cherry Hill? You`re -- where at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me get my breath here!
911 OPERATOR: Is the baby walking around or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, the baby looks dead. I`m walking uphill, and I can see a baby`s feet down here, and it`s got a blue diaper on. I ain`t never seen nothing like this before! Oh, it`s horrible! God, it`s horrible! Oh, God!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is the father of the baby? Police with an all points bulletin for 21-year-old Travis Mullis tonight. You can hear the anguish in the man`s voice calling 911. He and his wife were out spotting wildlife. They were looking to spot coyotes, birds, other animals natural to that habitat. Instead, they saw what they thought was a baby doll on the side of the road, only to discover this was a real baby thrown out of the car like trash. Was the baby actually hurled from a car in an infant seat? A baby car seat found about 30 feet away from the body of this little baby boy. At this age, 3 months old -- my twins will turn 3 months on the 4th, February the 4th -- they`re about this long. The little baby looked like a baby doll on the side of the road!
Out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, what`s the latest?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Nancy, every time you hear that tape, that 911 call, it just breaks your heart. It`s really difficult to keep listening to that because you have to imagine what is going through these people`s mind when they found this. It just rips your heart out when you think about this.
Like we had been talking about today, the autopsy results are in on this 3-month-old infant boy, and what they`re saying is that the child was killed before it was tossed on the side of the road like a piece of trash. What we don`t know is, you know, did the driver -- was the driver able to toss the child still in the carseat out the window? We don`t know that. Or, you know, did he stop and get out of the car, take the child out of the carseat and toss him on the side of the road?
GRACE: Joining us also tonight, in addition to Michael Board, is Harvey Rice, reporter with "The Houston Chronicle." Harvey, thank you for being with us. When exactly was the baby found, who found him and where?
HARVEY RICE, "HOUSTON CHRONICLE": He was found about 9:00 AM on Tuesday morning by a couple from Galveston. And you heard the tape. They were looking for wildlife and driving on top of a paved berm that`s right next to the seawall boulevard there.
By the way, I have to make a correction. You know, I talked to two police officers and to the coroner`s office, and it seems like they`re contradicting a wire report out that says that the baby was thrown from the car. I talked (INAUDIBLE) they`re all telling me that, in fact, they don`t know whether the baby was tossed from the car or not. They don`t know if the baby was dead in the car or outside the car or what happened. That`s what they`re (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Well, in any event, Harvey Rice, both of those scenarios can be true, that the child was dead in the car and was then thrown out of the car. Apparently, Harvey -- with me is Harvey Rice from "The Houston Chronicle." Apparently, Harvey, the police officer says he could tell immediately that the child had been -- had a blow to the head before being thrown out of the car.
RICE: Well, I can only tell, I`ve talked to Jorge Trevino, who`s being quoted in that, and I`ve also talked to a detective, Jeremy Schwartz (ph). I`ve talked to the investigator from the coroner`s office, John Horns (ph). And every single one of them are telling me that they don`t know. I mean, it is plausible, certainly (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK. Well, just can you give me the answers...
RICE: ... they don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... to these three questions? OK, you know what? Let me go to Michael Board. Michael, number one, when exactly was the baby found?
BOARD: About 9:00 o`clock yesterday morning.
GRACE: Yesterday morning. Number two, who found the baby?
BOARD: It was a couple of people who were out walking in that area, looking for wildlife. And they came across what they thought was -- like you heard on the tape. They thought it might have been a baby wrapped up in diaper. And then they called police.
GRACE: OK. Where?
BOARD: It was on the side of the road. It was actually in the grass.
GRACE: Where, where, where, where, where! Where!~ In Galveston, outside of Galveston, by the water, in the woods! Where!
BOARD: It`s in a fairly rural area where they were out there -- it`s on a -- by a seawall. It`s an area where, you know, you could go out and see wildlife in that area. This isn`t an urban area. This is far away from the city.
GRACE: OK. That answers a lot, Michael, because it seems to me that whoever discarded this tiny infant as if he were trash went to an isolated area where he wouldn`t be found. In fact, this couple was actually looking for coyotes.
Take a listen to the just-released 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Galveston, 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh! Oh, God! I`m up here driving with my wife, and I found a baby. I think it`s a baby. We`re up here on -- we`re on Cherry Hill (INAUDIBLE) Oh, I can`t believe this!
911 OPERATOR: OK, you`re on Cherry Hill? Where at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, let me get my breath here!
911 OPERATOR: Is the baby walking around or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, the baby looks dead. I`m walking up to it. I can see a baby`s feet down here and it`s got a blue diaper on. I ain`t never seen nothing like this before! Oh, it`s horrible! God, it`s horrible! Oh, God!
I can`t believe this, somebody would do something like this! Who...
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God! It`s a baby.
911 OPERATOR: Can you get next to the baby, or is it down there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to it now. (INAUDIBLE) up here because I have never seen nothing like this before. Oh, my God! It`s a baby! God! Oh!
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody hit it on the head! I can tell the skull (INAUDIBLE) Why in the world would somebody do this?
911 OPERATOR: Headquarters station two needs a route (ph) to Cherry Hill (INAUDIBLE) Cherry Hill (INAUDIBLE) on a possible DOA.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Lieutenant Jorge Trevino with the Galveston Police Department. He`s the public information officer. Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about how the little baby died?
LT. JORGE TREVINO, GALVESTON POLICE DEPT.: The coroner has ruled the death a homicide and the cause of death as severe head trauma.
GRACE: Now, what were the circumstances leading up to the little baby being discarded this way?
TREVINO: Well, we`re not really sure about the circumstances. We know that the baby was last seen with the biological father and that was around 5:30, 6:00 o`clock in the morning, and was reported -- was found by this couple at around 9:00 AM.
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you some pointed questions, Lieutenant Trevino. Number one, are you still looking for the father?
TREVINO: Yes.
GRACE: Where`s the mother?
TREVINO: The mother I would assume is at home. We interviewed her...
GRACE: It was my understanding...
TREVINO: ... and she was released.
GRACE: ... she was still under police questioning.
TREVINO: I don`t know. She was interviewed once. I don`t know if she was interview -- I don`t know if a follow-up interview was done or necessary.
GRACE: OK. According to our sources, she`s still under police questioning. Any idea where the father is?
TREVINO: No, none whatsoever.
GRACE: OK. Who was the child last seen with?
TREVINO: With the biological father.
GRACE: Where were they going?
TREVINO: The reports we`re getting, or what the mother told us, is that the father was going to go get a car worked on.
GRACE: Get the car worked on. And what time did he leave the home?
TREVINO: At 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning.
GRACE: 5:30 to 6:00 in the morning to get the car worked on. All right. If he was going to go get the car worked on, why in just a couple of hours did she start calling local hospitals, looking for her baby?
TREVINO: I don`t know if it was a couple of hours later. It might have been a little bit later than that. I don`t have the exact timeline.
GRACE: According to our sources, it was exactly three hours later. Now, why would she start looking at hospitals for the baby unless she knew there was something wrong with the baby, the baby had been harmed when the dad left the home with the baby?
TREVINO: She was very concerned, and we don`t know exactly why she started calling hospitals.
GRACE: Has she given a statement? It was told to use she said she was calling hospital because she didn`t think her husband had enough supplies to take care of, feed the baby for that many hours.
TREVINO: That`s correct.
GRACE: Oh, so you do know? Why -- what -- OK. What did she say as to why she was calling the hospitals.
TREVINO: She was concerned -- an interview was conducted. And I`m not privy to the entire contents of the interview.
GRACE: Right. What did she say?
TREVINO: But she did become concerned because he had not taken any formula with him.
GRACE: And she thought that calling the hospitals, Caryn Stark, was the thing to do because the father didn`t have formula? Does that make sense to you, Caryn?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: No, it doesn`t make a lot of sense, unless they were really fighting beforehand, Nancy, or something was going on that she...
GRACE: That doesn`t matter, to my mind.
STARK: ... understood that something was happening and that she was afraid that he took out his anger on the baby. That`s what I would hypothesize.
GRACE: Let`s go straight back out to Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, what more can you tell us about the location of the mother and the father right now?
BOARD: Well, they were living in a trailer home outside of Houston, a town called Alvin, Texas. It`s outside of Houston. They were actually living with another man outside in this trailer, so there were four of them living in this one trailer home out there. Apparently, this friend of the family knew that they were down on their luck, didn`t have a whole lot of money, and said, yes, you can come by and live with us for a while. So there are four of them living in the trailer...
GRACE: What I`m asking is, Where`s the mom right now?
BOARD: You know, we believe that she is back home. You know, she did talk with police today and (INAUDIBLE) do interviews, and they haven`t charged her with anything. So you know, that sort of tells you that they don`t believe that she was a part of this.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. William Morrone joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan. Dr. Morrone, if the child is thrown out of the car, how can you tell by autopsy, did he die of blunt force trauma to the head before he was thrown out of the car or because he was thrown out of the car?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER: What you want to match up is data from autopsy and crime scene or death scene photography and investigation. And if there`s no sign of violence on the crime scene, then some of the presuppositions that you make is that trauma was done before the child was transported. But the translation of "damage to the head" has to be evident at the death scene, or it`s assumed to be prior to the death scene.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Nancy in Oregon. Hi, Nancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: How are you, dear? What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, well, congratulations on your babies first.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With all the information that is out there for parents who can`t handle something like this, why would they never pick up on it?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers on that one. Susan Moss, family attorney and child advocate, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta, Alan Ripka out of New York. Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Who is this guy, daddy dearest without the hangers? That`s exactly the question that should be asked. There`s no reason in this day and time if parents can`t handle the child that they can`t go and ask for help. And what I want the police to do is to question this timeline. It doesn`t seem to make sense that they would take a 3-month-old baby out at 5:30 or 6:00 AM to go work on a car. That makes no sense. And that`s what the police, hopefully, are doing right now.
GRACE: You know, Renee, why would you take a baby out to work on a car, period? I mean, my twins are almost the same exact age and -- they can`t even lift their head up. Why do you take them out?
MOSS: Nancy, I`m not so sure that they`re satisfied with the mother`s story at all. So I`m sure, if they let her go home, which I`m not sure they did, they are watching her because, first of all, what she said is very suspicious, that she would start calling the hospital if she`s looking for her husband and the child. Would you call a hospital if your husband was gone for three hours with the baby? No, you`d start looking for him. You`d call friends. You`d want to know. And Nancy...
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much. If those babies leave the apartment, I`m leaving with them, number one.
ROCKWELL: But Nancy...
GRACE: But number two, no, I wouldn`t start calling the hospitals.
ROCKWELL: Well, second thing, Nancy, why are we so sure that the husband has not met some ill fate? He, too, could be a victim. This could be just a carjacking gone bad.
GRACE: You know what? That doesn`t even make sense. A carjacking, you throw -- beat the baby in the head and throw it out the window and keep the man? Right.
ROCKWELL: No, Nancy. You don`t know where the man is. I`m just saying is a little too early. We know one thing, that the...
GRACE: No, I don`t know where he is, but I know it`s not a carjacking where they throw the -- beat the baby to death, throw it out the window and keep the man. No, Renee!
ROCKWELL: Nancy, you still don`t know where the man is. We know one thing, that the baby`s dead...
GRACE: Yes, I agree with that. That`s why we`re telling the story, because I want to know where Mullis is. I want to find Mullis. I want to bring Mullis back to the police station and answer some questions. Here`s his picture. The tip line, 409-765-3662.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looked like a doll at first. I got out of the car and looked and said, What the heck? And I walk up, and it just -- it was a baby. It was a little baby. It was horrible. I went to pieces. I just could not believe it. It`s horrible. I didn`t know how to handle myself. I cried. It hit me like a ton of rocks. I`ve never seen anything like this before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 3-month-old baby boy found tossed to the side of the road, 30 feet away, his carseat. The autopsy now says the baby was murdered before it was thrown out of the car. A couple out spotting coyotes found the baby and immediately called 911. Right now, the father cannot be found.
Out to Charles in Ohio. Hi, Charles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. How`re you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, we were wondering -- my wife had a fantastic question. What if it is possible that he put the carseat on the top of the car and was driving down the road and it just happened to bounced off while he was going down the road, and that`s why she was calling the hospitals?
GRACE: OK. Why would they leave the baby there, Charles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) leave their coffee cups and everything on the hood of the car...
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no. Why would he leave the baby on the side of the road?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I`m just saying if he put it on the roof of the car and forgot it was there, got in the car and drove away and it just happened to bounce off while he was going down the road.
GRACE: Well, don`t you think he`d go back to get his baby, Charles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if he was afraid and it was already found?
GRACE: OK. Wouldn`t you go back to get your baby and try to save its life?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, yes, but -- we`re not saying we`re talking about somebody who was rational. It`s just a possibility. My wife thought of it, and I think, Hey, what if he...
GRACE: Oh, you know what? I`m ready for you. According to the autopsy, the baby was murdered before it left the car. And I think, Charles, that the reason they`re saying that is the injuries to the head are consistent with blows to the head, as opposed to falling onto the pavement. Medical examiners can actually look, Dr. Morrone, and determine if, for instance, a bat or a weapon or a hammer or a clawfoot was used on the head. Yes, no.
MORRONE: Yes, and it`s really important that research has shown a child needs to fall from 10 to 12 feet for significant head trauma. Three, four feet off of a car or being dropped, it doesn`t work that way.
GRACE: To Liz in Florida. Hi, Liz.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve been wanting to talk to you for a long time.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I was just wondering, did they check anybody at the trailer and find out if anything happened at the trailer?
GRACE: What about it, Michael Board? Do we know? Has the trailer been processed as a possible crime scene?
BOARD: Yes, the police have been out there at the trailer. They talked with the other people at the trailer park. They said that there was an argument the night before. But the next morning when he left, they didn`t think it was anything serious. That`s why she let him leave with the kid.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Is your wife near the baby?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh (INAUDIBLE) I`ll let you talk to my wife!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It looks like it`s, like, maybe 4 months, maybe 6 months.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Police looking tonight for Travis "T.J." Mullis, 5-10, 150 pounds, dyed blond hair, wears glasses, driving a silver four-door Hyundai.
Straight out to the lines. Stacy in California. Hi, Stacy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, congratulations on your two twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re beautiful. My question is, you know, the 911 callers, they also have now become victims of this crime. Do they have some type of on-site grief counselors for them? Because the man -- you know, he sounds very upset.
GRACE: You mean counseling for the man that found the child or the 911 dispatchers?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, the man -- the people who actually found the child.
GRACE: No. No grief counseling for the witnesses until you get to the trial level usually. They may be able to get some counseling through the police department.
To Donna in New York. Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. Congratulations about your kids.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your babies. This is very upsetting. There`s a whole bunch of us that sit in a little bar in South Troy every night and watch you. This is unbelievable! That baby looks like a little tiny cookie cutter laying there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drew Peterson insists he had nothing to do with his wife Stacy`s disappearance. Some reports say he wants to go on the primetime game show, "Moment of Truth." That`s where contestants take a lie detector test in front of a live audience. The reports of the latest twist in the bizarre circus that has surrounded Peterson ever since his wife vanished in October.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drew Peterson claims he`s gotten his fair share of love notes from lady admirers. But now he`s receiving vicious death threats. One handwritten letter addressed simply "To Drew" full of scathing attacks, upset Peterson`s bragging about getting women`s phone numbers and warning Peterson he`ll soon get a taste of his own medicine. Peterson`s attorney says that the author may try and kill his client but still maintains Drew Peterson is not afraid.
Drew Peterson remains the only suspect in his wife`s disappearance. But that doesn`t stop some women from wanting to date him. Not every one is so enamored though. Peterson claiming he`s receiving death threats. One letter even threatening castration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Drew Peterson at center stage yet again. Discovering the evidence. Every time a letter or any evidence is found, he discovers it.
Out to Mary Frances Bragiel with WBBM Newsradio 780. Drew Peterson gets a death threat. His wife is very likely dead. Explain.
MARY FRANCES BRAGIEL, REPORTER, NEWSRADIO 780: Not according -- Nancy, not according to Drew Peterson, his wife is not dead.
GRACE: Yes, right.
BRAGIEL: According to Drew Peterson, his wife has run off with another man. And that is why this whole "Moment of Truth" game show that has come out and claimed that they want Drew to come on and take a lie detector test. I spoke to him yesterday on the phone and it`s the first he`d heard about it. He thinks it`s a great idea because, you know, his wife has run off with another man. He`s got nothing to hide.
Now his attorney tells me that there`s no way Drew is going to go on a game show and take a lie detector test because he would never allow Drew to take a lie detector from the beginning of this case.
GRACE: To Joel Brodsky, speaking of.
JOEL BRODSKY, DREW PETERSON`S ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: This is the defense attorney for Drew Peterson. Why won`t your guy take a lie detector?
BRODSKY: My -- in this context and the context that they want to submit this lie detector test in that venue is no more accurate than flipping a coin. It has no accuracy, no validity. It`s a 50/50 shot. It doesn`t matter.
GRACE: OK.
BRODSKY: .if you`re telling the truth or not. So why is.
GRACE: OK. I got it. I got the answer.
BRODSKY: Yes.
GRACE: You don`t think that, under these circumstances, it`s valid. OK. Mr. Brodsky, why don`t you take one at the police station?
BRODSKY: Well, it`s the same thing. I mean what we`re talking about is hooking somebody up to a machine and ask, did you do it, did you not do it.
GRACE: OK. Why don`t you get a private lie detector test, a polygraph test? Have you thought of that?
BRODSKY: Well, it certainly crossed our mind. But once again.
GRACE: Why not do it?
BRODSKY: Because there`s no -- once again, the only way that there`s any validity to a lie detector test is if there -- if it`s a small part of a full, wide-ranging interrogation, traditional interrogation on which a lie detector is a small part. And we`re not going to submit him to that type of thing.
GRACE: Well, there`s certainly have been a lie -- well, if he`s innocent, why don`t you -- you said he`s got nothing to hide. You keep saying probably he`s not afraid, he knows karate. It tells a lot like Barney Fife, remember him? Hands are a lethal weapon. If he`s not afraid, strap him up to a lie detector.
BRODSKY: Well, as I said, if it`s just a matter of random chance of what it was going to show.
GRACE: I`m sorry I couldn`t hear you, repeat.
BRODSKY: If it`s just a matter of random chance, if it`s just a random chance, if there`s going to show up a lie or truth, then there`s no validity to it. I mean it`s meaningless.
GRACE: So you think that lie detector tests are random and don`t work?
BRODSKY: You know look at Oliver James.
GRACE: OK.
BRODSKY: .this spy on the CIA. He passed them all the time and he was the most dangerous spy in the United States history.
GRACE: Mr. Brodsky, are you telling me that you`ve never had a client that took a lie detector test?
BRODSKY: One time, about 20 years ago and I`ve never done it since.
GRACE: Did he -- I assume he failed?
BRODSKY: No, actually they passed and they were later convicted. There you go.
GRACE: And explain to me with that type of an outcome, that doesn`t even make sense that you wouldn`t have your clients take them.
BRODSKY: Well, that just goes to show how flawed they are.
GRACE: OK. You`re talking in circles.
BRODSKY: I don`t think so. They don`t.
GRACE: Yes, you are.
BRODSKY: There`s no validity to it. If in that case, they passed and they were later convicted.
GRACE: You have an excuse every time somebody wants your client to take a lie detector.
You know what? Let`s get back to the death threats.
BRODSKY: OK. Sure.
GRACE: Who found, who discovered the death threats?
BRODSKY: Well, they`re mailed -- well, one of them was mailed to me. I -- and most of them were to Drew`s home.
GRACE: Where were they from?
BRODSKY: Well, all but one was anonymous. One.
GRACE: Well, they`ve got to have a postmark.
BRODSKY: Right. They`re usually from the Chicago area, the suburbs, Chicago itself.
GRACE: Have you handed them over to police?
BRODSKY: Well, we handed the one that was directed towards me and I received in my office. I did hand over to the authorities. As far as Drew goes, we handed, I believe, one over early, and then Drew had some instances where he called the Bolingbrook Police for help when there were fistfights and stopped in front of his house, and they got no response. So Drew doesn`t feel that the Bolingbrook Police have any response.
GRACE: So the answer is no, you haven`t handed them over to the police.
BRODSKY: But I have preserved them. I have them preserved. Each one is preserved and (INAUDIBLE) in its envelope.
GRACE: Well, you`ve already lost your chain of custody right there if you want to prove anything.
BRODSKY: No. No. I preserved them in an envelope as this.
GRACE: So Drew gave them to you?
BRODSKY: Yes.
GRACE: OK. So you haven`t had them tested for fingerprints, fibers, for DNA, nothing.
BRODSKY: No.
GRACE: You`ve got death threats that you`re worried about it, but not worried enough to take them to police?
BRODSKY: Well -- you`re saying that the Bolingbrook Police are going to do something about it and we don`t believe that they are because.
GRACE: Well, why don`t you take them to the state`s attorney? Are they in on it too?
BRODSKY: Well, the state`s attorney certainly isn`t on anything. But they have no jurisdiction. They`ll just tell you to go to the local police.
GRACE: No, that`s not true. That`s not true.
BRODSKY: Well, that is true.
GRACE: If your local police department is not doing their job, you go to the local D.A. And then you go over their head to the state`s attorney`s office. Have you done any of that?
BRODSKY: The locals -- well, I certainly told the prosecutors about it. But you have to have a police report or they can`t act on it. And you can`t give.
GRACE: Did he file a police report?
BRODSKY: The Bolingbrook Police will not respond to his calls.
GRACE: Did he file -- did he call them, 911 or the local number for the police and tell them he had gotten a death threat?
BRODSKY: Not since the first one because he didn`t.
GRACE: So the answer is no.
BRODSKY: No, not lately, because they did not respond to his calls for help.
GRACE: OK. Let me get this straight. You say your guy, your client, Drew Peterson.
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: .who`s wife is now missing, he keeps telling his kids she`s on vacation according to our sources.
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: He gets death threats, according to you and him, but you haven`t given them all to the police, you haven`t had any testing on them, and you haven`t filed a police report?
BRODSKY: Well, we did call -- he did call the police when there were incidents at his house during that -- like for example, when there was a fistfight and they were.
GRACE: No, I`m talking about the death threats, Mr. Brodsky.
BRODSKY: Well, then they didn`t respond to that, he saw no further reason to call the police. They won`t respond to people standing in front of his house hitting on a pi¤ata with his face on it with a baseball bat, then why are they going to respond to the death threats?
GRACE: OK. Out to the lines, Denise in South Carolina. Hi, Denise.
DENISE, FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
DENISE: My question is, well, I was just listening, but I was wondering, like, if Drew Peterson did go on that show, can anything that he says be used against him? And can he legally do that?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Allen Ripka, what would prevent prosecutors from using anything he said on a game show or talk show in evidence?
ALLEN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nothing would prevent them from using it. They`ll use every statement he made on every show, every talk show, newscast, radio show they could to show any inconsistency, in fact, if there was one.
GRACE: What about, Allen Ripka, if he actually took a lie detector on this game show? Would that come in?
RIPKA: That`s interesting, Nancy. You know, obviously, lie detector tests are inadmissible in the court of law because they have proven not to be.
GRACE: Well, hold on. Wait a minute, Allen. Can we see, Allen?
Allen, if both parties stipulate to its admittance upfront before it`s taken, they do, in fact, come into evidence.
RIPKA: Under those circumstances, that`s the single exception when they do come in to evidence.
GRACE: Yes.
RIPKA: But most good attorneys would not do that, Nancy.
GRACE: I very often agreed to a polygraph.
RIPKA: Well, when you`re the prosecutor or when you`re the defense attorney?
GRACE: I`ve never been a defense attorney. Thank God.
RIPKA: OK, Nancy. Well, defense attorneys.
GRACE: But yes, I`ve agreed to them many times.
RIPKA: Well, as a defense attorney, you wouldn`t agree because you know it`s.
GRACE: I wonder why.
RIPKA: Because you know if it`s inaccurate, why would you take a chance of knowing the results?
GRACE: Because you know your client is going to fail, Allen. Go ahead. Spit it out. That`s what the bad taste in your mouth, isn`t it?
RIPKA: Nancy, how many guys have been in jail that they`ve been proven as innocent? Not all people who take lie detector tests and fail are in fact guilty. It`s a proven fact.
GRACE: OK. OK. All right.
Pat Brown, weigh in.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": I think polygraphs aren`t too bad. If you do them right, what`s going to happen is if you`re innocent and you`re answering a simple question, then you`ll pass. If you`re guilty, and answering a simple question, you could pass if you`re a total psychopath and convince yourself that what you`re saying is right.
But even so, most psychopaths will know the truth and screw it up and fail. And that`s why Drew Peterson probably doesn`t want to take it.
GRACE: Quickly, APB, All Points Bulletin on special moms and dads. If you know a parent who`s an inspiration to others, get your camcorder, go to CNN.com/Nancygrace, click on "i-Report" and enter them in the "Extraordinary Parent Contest."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEVE DAHL, HOST, STEVE DAHL MORNING SHOW: You want to do a dating game tomorrow? I`ll do a dating game with you.
BRODSKY: Drew, it`s up to you man.
DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOM STACY: I don`t know. Ask the lawyer.
BRODSKY: Yes, why not.
DAHL: All right. Let`s do it tomorrow at 8:00. What do you say?
PETERSON: Sure. Tomorrow at 8:00.
DAHL: Yes.
BRODSKY: It`ll be interesting. Who picks the date though?
DAHL: Drew.
BRODSKY: OK.
DAHL: I`ll line up the bachelorettes, and then Drew gets to pick from the three girls.
PETERSON: OK. Sounds good. Only three?
DAHL: But I think we`re probably going to send a chaperone on the date just to be on the safe side.
PETERSON: Oh come on.
DAHL: I`m kidding. I`m kidding.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: His wife missing now for months, and Drew Peterson is setting himself up to be a on a dating game.
Back out to his lawyer, a veteran trial lawyer in the Chicago area, Joel Brodsky. Why would your client be entering a dating game?
BRODSKY: Well, that wasn`t serious. That was -- if you know Steve Dahl`s show, it`s a long-standing comedy show here in Chicago. Steve`s been on for 30 years. This was -- you`re just playing a small part of a 15, 20 minute interview.
GRACE: Right. Why would he agree to enter in - to a dating contest?
BRODSKY: It was a bit that was a comedy bit. It was never serious attempt to get the date.
GRACE: That was a comedy bit? He`s doing a comedy bit while his wife is missing?
BRODSKY: Well, if Drew`s wife is, you know, you use the word missing. For Drew his wife ran away with another man. So for Drew to say that his life is on hold.
GRACE: How do you know she`s not dead?
BRODSKY: Well, it certainly wasn`t Drew that killed her. She ran off with another man and that man did something to her.
GRACE: In fact, you were very convinced when the first of the remains of a female body.
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: .turned up last Friday night that that`s not where she was buried?
BRODSKY: Well, that`s not what I said. I said that wasn`t Stacy and that was a very simple explanation.
GRACE: How did you know it wasn`t Stacy?
BRODSKY: Because forensics. You know, Stacy disappeared October.
GRACE: Forensics?
BRODSKY: Yes. Stacy disappeared October 28th. We had a very mild November and December in Chicago. If there was a body lying in an open field for three months, that body is going to be skeletonized. It`s.
GRACE: You don`t know that.
BRODSKY: Absolutely. The body.
GRACE: You knew that wasn`t Stacy.
BRODSKY: Absolutely.
GRACE: .because you know where her remains are.
BRODSKY: No. No, that is because.
GRACE: Why?
BRODSKY: .I know that a -- the body was identified as that of a white woman, when they said they had an intact foot and leg. And there`s no way that a body laying for three months in an open field is going to.
GRACE: According to you.
BRODSKY: You can ask any forensic pathologist.
GRACE: Let`s go to Dr. William Morrone. Is there.
DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: How are you doing?
GRACE: Is there any way that she could be identified as Stacy Peterson?
MORRONE: November, December, January may have been mild. But what tears the body down to bones is insect recycling, and they`re gone. They`re not there. The body would remain in tact through the winter. And it`s been cold enough to preserve it with the mildest of decomposition.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Brodsky, when you go to trial make sure you have an expert before you give your scientific opinion on body remains.
BRODSKY: Dr. Sarah Wecht agrees with me so I.
GRACE: Oh you have consulted with a medical examiner?
BRODSKY: Dr. Sarah Wecht, yes.
GRACE: Why did you consult with a medical examiner?
BRODSKY: Well, just for the reason that you did because I knew that people would be going and talking to other consultant so I want to make sure I had mine.
GRACE: If you`re client is innocent, why are you busy consulting with a medical examiner?
BRODSKY: To make sure that I was going to be able to respond to the question that I knew you`re going to ask.
GRACE: Right.
To Alena in California. Hi, Alena.
ALENA, FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi. My question is, probably last week when I heard you talking to this attorney for Drew Peterson last week. And he was making jokes, in fact, it was so funny that he knew phrase, fact, that that woman that was in that barrel was not Stacy. Now my question is, with Drew Peterson having so much money and having contacts because he was an officer and stuff, could that have been set up to throw everybody off?
GRACE: You mean finding the body?
ALENA: Yes because the woman -- who was the woman that they found. There`s no -- it could have been a Jane Doe, and it was all set up.
GRACE: It is a Jane Doe. But I -- I don`t see Peterson who is under -- being watched by so many eyes right now, going to the effort and the risk of setting up another body being found. I remember that body was torn up into pieces, had been cut into pieces. That takes a lot of effort. The only other way he could be involved in that is to have someone else do it for him. Once you bring somebody else in on a conspiracy, it`s over, because they`ll blab.
To Deana in Oklahoma. Hi, Deana.
DEANA, FROM OKLAHOMA: Hi. My question for you, Nancy, is, in the beginning whenever Drew Peterson came out, he was wearing a bandana around his face. Did they ever check to see if he has scratches or anything underneath there? That maybe he had an altercation with Stacy?
GRACE: To Kathy Cheney, joining us from the "Chicago Defender," at the very beginning, Kathy, was he examined?
KATHY CHENEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: I don`t believe he was examined. But all of the media clearly saw his face and we didn`t notice anything like that a unusual mark or any scratches or anything like that.
GRACE: So you know the answer for a different reason. Well put.
Kathy, what are police and the community making of the so-called death threats? After Peterson brags about secret admirers, he gets these letters.
CHENEY: As you pretty much stated out earlier, again, all of these death threat messages, the reported sightings of Stacy that had ended up in his box, he`s been the one that`s been finding them. So no one`s really leaving any type of, you know, credible notion even into it because he`s finding it all.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Allen Ripka.
Renee, if this does ever go to trial, and it is believed that he had something to do with these death threats, how bad will that look in front of a jury?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I don`t think it`s just getting so circus like and the most ridiculous thing I have heard so far is this lie detector game. That, too, could come in if he ever has a trial.
GRACE: Yes. You know, would you agree, Susan Moss, that he needs to put on a muzzle and stay off radio shows, off TV shows, out of the limelight, and try to help find his wife?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY AND CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. This guy claims to have -- to receive more letters than Santa Claus and just as fictitious. He`s got to get out of the public light, he`s got to stay quiet. And I think it`s worst thing that he could do is to go on this show because I do think that that lie detector would come in. If he took the stand, I think it could be used as an impeachment.
GRACE: I really want him to go on the show, Joel Brodsky. I really do. Why does he keep calling in the radio shows? What possesses him? What is his need to be on the radio and draw attention to himself and his love life?
BRODSKY: Well, he called in just one radio show. And this.
GRACE: Why?
BRODSKY: Well, this particular radio host had been doing one-hour Drew Peterson bits and writing songs about it for the last three months. And it was just getting out of hand. So Drew thought that by calling in and kind of engaging him he may be able to take the air off.
GRACE: I`d love to ask him a few questions. If he is so willing to endure the spotlight of the media, I would love to ask him some questions.
BRODSKY: I`m sure you would. But you`re not going to do it as part of a comedy show so it`s a little bit different.
GRACE: Yes, it`s a little bit different when you have to answer hard questions.
BRODSKY: Absolutely.
GRACE: Caryn Stark, why would he be continuing to talk about his love life?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he`s a narcissist, Nancy. And behind every narcissist is somebody who is extremely insecure. And so he talks a little too much and I believe that that`s a sign that he doesn`t have much of a love life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Why won`t your guy take a lie detector?
BRODSKY: My -- in this context and the context that they want to submit this lie detector test in that venue is no more accurate than flipping a coin. It has no accuracy, no validity. It`s a 50/50 shot. It doesn`t matter.
GRACE: OK.
BRODSKY: .if you`re telling the truth or not. So why is.
GRACE: OK. I got it. I got the answer.
BRODSKY: Yes.
GRACE: You don`t think that, under these circumstances, it`s valid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, won`t send the death threats to police, won`t make a crime report, won`t have the death threats fingerprinted, traced, nothing. How can they be taken seriously?
Out to Mandy in Indiana. Hi, Mandy.
MANDY, FROM INDIANA: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
MANDY: My questions is, if the lawyer knows if Drew killed his wife, is he required by law to tell or is it like a doctor/patient thing where he can keep it secret because it`s his client?
GRACE: Absolutely like a doctor/patient privilege. You were right, Mandy in Indiana.
Mae in Illinois. Hi, Mae.
MAE, FROM ILLINOIS: Hi. Hi, Nancy. Congratulations.
GRACE: OK. What`s your question? Thank you.
MAE: And we love your show. OK. The question is, my husband and I were wondering if, possibly he could have had her cremated so there`d be nothing left to show and so forth?
GRACE: I think at this point anything is a possibility.
To Dr. Morrone, that would get rid of any and all evidence, right?
MORRONE: Yes, but it wouldn`t be professional cremation. It`d be something that`s done on the side. And it`s really hard. People don`t know how to do it the right way.
GRACE: So when done by a so-called amateur, DNA is left behind?
MORRONE: Oftentimes because it`s the body cavities -- are protected, the stomach, the lungs, the genitals, the intestines, they`re there.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, reporting out of Michigan, a forensic pathologist, an expert in his field.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Daniel J. Shaw, 23, West Seneca, New York, killed in Iraq. Shaw honored by more than 1,000 students and faculty at the high school he attended. A kind man with a big smile, dressed as Santa for holidays, survived by parents, Ronald and Brenda, brother Ronald, sister Angela, Grandma Patricia.
Daniel Shaw, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, especially to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
