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Nancy Grace

One in Custody, One Sought in UNC Student Murder

Aired March 12, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Fast-breaking developments tonight in the case of beautiful 22-year-old student body president UNC Chapel Hill, last seen 1:30 AM doing homework, 5:00 AM shots fired, 22-year-old Eve Carson found dead in an intersection near campus.
Tonight: A Crimestoppers tip comes in late night. At 5:00 AM, a bust goes down, 21-year-old Demario James Atwater tonight in custody facing charges of capital murder. And in a stunning development, police reveal they are, in fact, on the heels of a second suspect, the driver caught on grainy surveillance video at the wheel of Eve Carson`s Toyota.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A big break in the murder investigation of University of North Carolina student Eve Carson. Police have charged this man with first degree murder. He is 21-year-old Demario James Atwater. Police took him into custody overnight in Durham. Here you can see him in his first court appearance. A warrant has also been issued for a second suspect in the case. Police are looking for 17-year-old Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr. Police think he`s the man in this ATM car video.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Moments ago, a SWAT team in Durham stormed a home where it`s believed Lovett holed up.


GRACE: And breaking news tonight. New York state governor Eliot Spitzer, AKA "client number nine," gives up the governor`s mansion after the IRS stings the tough guy/crime fighter, Governor Spitzer, in high- priced prostitution ring, the Emperors VIP Club. Tonight: We learn Spitzer a long-time regular to the tune of an $80,000 hooker tab that we know of, meeting hookers from D.C. to Florida, New York, all the way to Dallas, Texas. Tonight, why no arrest? Is a sweetheart deal secret in the works for Spitzer to avoid jail time?


GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: In the past few days, I`ve begun to atone for my private failings with my wife, Silda, my children, and my entire family. The remorse I feel will always be with me. Words cannot describe how grateful I am for the love and compassion they have shown me.

From those to whom much is given, much is expected. I have been given much, the love of my family, the faith and trust of the people of New York and the chance to lead the state. I`m deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me. To every New Yorker and to all those who believed in what I tried to stand for, I sincerely apologize.

Over the course of my public life, I have insisted, I believe correctly, that people, regardless of their position or power, take responsibility for their conduct. I can and will ask no less of myself. For this reason, I am resigning from the office of governor.


GRACE: I guess you are. New York, D.C., Florida, Texas? This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. One arrest in the murder of 22-year-old beauty Eve Carson, UNC body president. One down, one to go, armed and dangerous.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Early this morning, Chapel Hill Police Department received information that the individual appearing in the convenience store photograph that we released earlier was possibly at a residence in Durham. At approximately 5:00 AM, Demario James Atwater, 21 years old, was taken into police custody after he was observed exiting the residence. Warrants have been served on Atwater charging him with first degree murder in the death of Eve Carson.

The Chapel Hill Police Department has also obtained warrants for Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr., 17 years old, believed to be the driver pictured in the first ATM photograph. Lovett has also been charged with first degree murder in the death of Eve Carson. He remains at large and we need your help locating this individual. Lovett is described as a black male, five-foot-seven, 150 pounds. Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr., should be considered armed and dangerous.


GRACE: One down, one to go. Let`s go straight out to CNN affiliate reporter at News 14 Carolina Shelvia Dancy. Shelvia, what happened?

SHELVIA DANCY, NEWS 14 CAROLINA: Well, just right out here, this is where Chapel Hill police came out and gave us their biggest break to date in this case so far. They made that arrest this morning of 21-year-old Demario James Atwater. He is charged with first degree murder. And that arrest came around 5:00 o`clock this morning, which if you`ll note, is exactly about a week to the day that Eve Carson died. Police are speculating that she was shot sometime around 5:00 o`clock Wednesday this time last week. It`s kind of a strange coincidence that everything went down this morning at about that same time. And as you mentioned in your opening, right now, police are on the hunt for a second guy, 17-year-old Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr. They`re looking for him right now.

GRACE: Tell me, Shelvia, how did police find him?

DANCY: The ATM surveillance photos, they started releasing those over the weekend. Hundreds of tips poured in, more than 200 by the time Monday rolled around. Very clear photos, in fact, of these guys` faces. We were all actually quite wondering how were they able to walk around without somebody noticing, without somebody picking up the phone and making that call. Apparently, a Crimestoppers tip -- someone did that last night, and that led to this morning`s bust.

GRACE: What about the reward, Shelvia? Will that person who called in that anonymous tip to Crimestoppers last night -- will they get the reward? Do we even know who they are, or was it anonymous?

DANCY: That`s an unknown at this point. We don`t know who they are. We don`t know if they`ll get that $25,000 reward. But police, the investigators, have been announcing for several days that there is that $25,000 reward, hoping that would be an incentive for someone to turn these people in.

GRACE: Shelvia -- Shelvia Dancy with us from News 14 Carolina -- Shelvia, break it down. Who reportedly did what in the scheme that ended up in the death of Eve?

DANCY: That`s some information that investigators are holding close to their chest right now. We`re trying to figure out, was the guy they arrested this morning, Atwater -- was he the shooter? Was Lovett the shooter? We specifically asked Police Chief Curran (ph) that question this morning, this afternoon, and that`s something he`s not telling us at this point.

GRACE: To Gurnal Scott joining us, reporter with WPTF radio. Gurnal, welcome back. Do we know if Atwater is talking?

GURNAL SCOTT, WPTF RADIO: We do not know if Atwater is saying much at this point. We know he is in custody and we know he has had his first court appearance. In fact, the only thing that he acknowledged in that court appearance is that he understands the charges against him and that, in fact, that could be up to and including the death penalty.

GRACE: Gurnal, do we know what he was doing in the home? I understand the home belonged to his grandparents?

SCOTT: I do not know what he was doing in the home at this point. We do know, as you may have heard Shelvia mention there just a second ago, that he was observed coming out of the home by Durham police, who assisted Chapel Hill police and conducted the raid in Durham. The SWAT team went in as he came out and brought him out. As for the owner of the home, that information is not available right at this moment.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at those photos again, Liz, if you`d put that up. Shelvia, who is driving the vehicle?

DANCY: Police are telling us they believe that the 17-year-old is the one driving the vehicle, Lawrence Alvin Lovett, the one who`s on the run right now. They believe in that ATM bank photo that shows someone`s face very clearly wearing that Houston Astros hat -- they believe that`s Lovett. And he`s the guy who`s on the run right now.

GRACE: You know what? To Caryn Stark, psychologist. That`s pretty darn bold. You shoot somebody down and then you go up to the ATM? Every moron in the country knows there`s a -- you can see the camera at the ATM. It is a deterrent. They want you to see the camera, get right in front of the camera. And four times, they tried to use her ATM.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, when you take a look at this, you have to say either this person is very stupid or they just doesn`t care. And I think...

GRACE: Or arrogant.

STARK: Yes. I don`t know that he really cares or believed something would happen to him. But then again, maybe he didn`t know there was a camera and he`s one of those few people who don`t.

GRACE: Well, obviously, he`s not blind. The camera is right there over the ATM machine. I think just an extreme case of arrogance. And look at all these photos, for Pete`s sake!

Out to the lines. Joyce in Florida. Hi, Joyce.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you. I wish you were my attorney.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. If Demario, this criminal, made a plea deal with the prosecution to turn in his buddy, Lawrence there, would they notify the victim`s family to go along with this?

GRACE: They don`t have to, but I would imagine, Joyce, in this situation, they would. Let me go ahead and break some news to you right now, Joyce in Florida. The Supreme Court -- for many, many years, the ruling in this country was 16 and under off limits for death penalty. It is now under 18. Lawrence Alvin Lovett, driving the vehicle, is 17 years old. Right now, we`ve got charges -- correct me if I`m wrong, Gurnal -- Gurnal Scott with WPTF radio. Right now, they are charged with murder one, right? Demario?

SCOTT: That is correct. Demario...

GRACE: Demario Atwater.

SCOTT: Demario Atwater is charged with first degree murder, as is Lawrence Alvin Lovett. He is not in custody, as we have established. They are still out looking for him. But they have charged him, or they will charge him, with first degree murder, as well.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Chris in North Carolina. Hi, Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. Thank you so much. My daughter is a student at UNC, and I`m just so glad they`re on spring break right now. But several questions. I`m going to go with a comment she made to me today. She`s a psychology major. And we were talking about what causes somebody to do this. And she`s, like, Mom, I think they`re born with a chemical imbalance and they`re -- from day one, there`s no redemption for these people. Your psychology people, what do they say?

GRACE: You know what? I don`t buy it, Caryn. I don`t think it`s as simple as being born with a mutant gene. Very quickly.

STARK: Well, usually, there`s a combination, Nancy. You`re born with something, and then you`re in a background where that starts to come up.

GRACE: To Jane in Ohio. Hi, Jane.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is there any relation between these two people? Did he know her in any way, or did she know him?

GRACE: What about it, Shelvia Dancy? Do we know of any connection, or was this random?

DANCY: From the beginning, Chapel Hill police have been saying this crime looked random. They couldn`t make any connection between the guy arrested today and the guy they`re looking for. And so far, (INAUDIBLE) evidence still points to the fact that this is a random crime.

GRACE: A random crime, which will probably make it even more difficult. Let`s go to Mike Brooks. You know Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, former fed with the FBI. You know, I`ve seen a lot of prosecutions. Sometimes, it`s even more difficult to accept -- I mean, it was for me as a crime victim -- that something is random.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, Nancy, right in the beginning, they thought that there might have been some connection between this and the murder in Auburn 500 miles away. But it appears like both were totally random acts of violence. And with this girl here, you know, this afternoon, when they had the stand-off at the house where they thought Lawrence Alvin Lovett was located, they threw a couple flash-bangs in. They made entry. The SWAT team made entry. They didn`t find him.

But I just want to let our viewers to know, as we look at his picture, he is considered armed and extremely dangerous. If anyone happens to see him, dial 911. Do not take any actions yourself.

GRACE: You know, you just throw around these terms, Brooks. When you say "flash-bang," explain.

BROOKS: A "flash-bang" is a loud noise and a bright light to disorient someone inside. SWAT teams use them on a regular basis. I`ve used them on a regular basis. You use them inside to disorient the person you`re going after, should he or she be inside that residence.

GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, hold on just a moment. Are you telling me you agree with Chris in North Carolina that people are just born that way? I don`t buy that for a minute!

STARK: Well, I think they have the propensity to being that way, Nancy. I think there`s a chemical imbalance, and it has to be combined with a certain amount of background, a background where there`s dysfunction or something goes wrong.

GRACE: Do you realize what you`re saying? You`re saying, basically, they can`t help themselves because they were born that way. I disagree!

Out to the lines. Martiana in North Carolina. Hi, Martiana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show! Your children are beautiful!

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you. Wait until you see the most recent photos. I`ve taken so many photos, every digicamera I have is full. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I was wondering, have they made any funeral arrangements? And will there be a public viewing?

GRACE: To Gurnal Scott with WPTF radio. What do we know?

SCOTT: Well, funeral arrangements -- well, there was a funeral last Sunday in Athens, Georgia, for Eve Carson. But next week at the basketball arena, the Dean Smith Center on Chapel Hill`s campus, there will be another memorial service. You`ve seen the pictures of the candlelight vigil last week that was attended by 5,000 students in the middle of mid-terms. There will be a memorial at the Dean Smith Center, several thousand seats sure to be filled as they remember Eve Carson.

GRACE: One for all, and all for one. It`s not just the motto of the Three Musketeers. It is a principle, a venerable principle in criminal law. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Lisa Pinto, New York, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Alan Ripka, New York. Out to you, Lisa Pinto.


GRACE: If one is in the act, the other is responsible as just a wing man. Explain.

PINTO: Well, it`s called accessorial liability. If you and I set out to rob a bank, Nancy, I drive the car, you hold up the teller, we`re both good as guilty because we entered into a plan to do this together. And it doesn`t matter that I didn`t hold the gun, I was part of the plan. I was driving the car which was an instrumentality of the crime. So I`m just as guilty.

GRACE: Renee, I guess you disagree.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. And let me tell you one other thing. You don`t have to agree that anything further than the bank robbery takes place. Let`s say that there`s no plan to kill the teller, and the guy out in the getaway car is just waiting, and the guy comes out to the getaway car and says, Oh, by the way, I killed the teller. Guess what? The driver is guilty for that, too, Nancy.

GRACE: You`re absolutely right, as far as I read the criminal law. Alan Ripka, does the guy who`s not the shooter, if only one is responsible for the shooting, have a leg to stand on?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not, Nancy. He does not because of what my colleagues just explained. However, I want to remind you that right now, we have no evidence, unless this guy confessed, that either one of these people murdered anybody.

GRACE: You know, let`s go back to Gurnal Scott, WPTF radio. What do we have?

BROOKS: I`m sorry?

GRACE: What evidence do we have, other than them driving her car very soon after the shooting death, them using her ATM? That`s pretty substantial.

SCOTT: That is pretty substantial. What we haven`t heard is the recovery of a gun. We haven`t heard anything about that. That evidence we haven`t heard about yet. So we know there was a gun involved in this crime, but we haven`t heard police or anyone say anything about even recovering that.

GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper. You all know Dr. Perper from the Anna Nicole Smith case. He`s the chief medical examiner there in Miami. He`s the author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us. Dr. Perper, if you could explain to the viewers how a bullet is matched up to a particular gun.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MIAMI MEDICAL EXAMINER: When the bullet is coming out of the barrel of a gun, the irregularity of metal inside the barrel which scratch the bullet and create a specific pattern which is specific and characteristic and individual for that particular gun. So if they have the gun and they have the bullet which is found in the victim`s body, they can compare it under a comparison microscope.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have come together during this difficult time to comfort each other and to help heal our community. But we also still must offer comfort to a family in mourning, to Eve`s family.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Big news coming out of Chapel Hill, North Carolina, today. We want to tell you that the police are still currently looking for a second suspect in the killing of Eve Carson. You see whom police believe to be that second suspect, Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr. He is believed to be the driver of her SUV. This was taken at an ATM machine as they were trying to withdraw funds from Eve Carson`s account. He has already been charged with first degree murder.


GRACE: The person you see driving the car, Lawrence Alvin Lovett, Jr., is still at large. Police on a manhunt for him right now. Demario James Atwater, aged 21, in custody tonight. If you take a look at that photo, that grainy surveillance video, you see Lovett driving and you see a figure, a shrouded figure in the back seat. Obviously, that is Demario James Atwater, according to police.

Out to the lines. Let go to Janet in New York. Hi, Janet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to first thank you for sharing your beautiful children with the whole nation. We all wait for those pictures. Thank you.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, does anyone know if there`s a relationship between these two guys? Are they gang members? Are they siblings? Are they friends? And secondly, it may be prejudicial, but does anyone know if the first suspect in custody has any record at all?

GRACE: To Shelvia Dancy with News 14 Carolina. What do we know about their relationship and their criminal history?

DANCY: Well, pretty much all day long, the investigators have been tight-lipped about this case. At the very end of the day, they started giving us some names. Exactly how these men know each other -- they`re not telling us whether they`re family members, whether they`re just friends. Anything of that nature, they`re not telling us at this point. We do know that Atwater has had some previous run-ins with the law. He`s had some convictions for drug possession, breaking and entering, felony possession - - or possession of a gun by a convicted felon, things of that sort. So he is no stranger to law enforcement around here.

GRACE: Out to Hunter Glass, private consultant with RDS Investigations joining us from Fayetteville, North Carolina. Hunter, it`s a pleasure to have you on tonight. What can police do now? They got an anonymous tip that handed over Demario James Atwater. What can they do now to apprehend Lovett?

HUNTER GLASS, FORMER GANG INVESTIGATOR, FAYETTEVILLE POLICE: Well, I think they keep the same pressure on. Obviously, they are connected. Atwater has a long history. He is known by the gang units in Durham. So more than likely, Lovett is right there with him. I would imagine that hat would be a description of that right there. So if they can locate that group, then at least they can start to narrow the field down.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chapel Hill Police Department received information that the individual appearing in the convenience store photograph that we released earlier was possibly at a residence in Durham. At approximately 5:00 AM, Demario James Atwater, 21 years old, was taken into police custody after he was observed exiting the residence. Warrants have been served on Atwater charging him with first degree murder in the death of Eve Carson.


GRACE: A gorgeous young girl, student body president there at UNC Chapel Hill. Now the perpetrators police are looking for. Atwater, prior criminal history, conviction for possession of a firearm, suspended sentence, convicted of felony breaking and entering, straight probation. Lovett convicted misdemeanor breaking and entering, suspended sentence.

Back out to Hunter Glass, private consultant there at RDS Investigations in Fayetteville, North Carolina. You mention a possible gang member. You know, I got a flood of e-mails the night we mentioned gangs on air because someone simply called in and asked about it. What do you know, Hunter?

GLASS: Well, I mean, I was contacted immediately by a lot of people in reference to the ballcap he was wearing. And the area of Durham in that area is kind of heavy with what we call Bloods. You have Bloods. You have Crips. You have a lot of gangs in. And so the hat he was wearing, the Houston Astro hat, has a red five-pointed star on it, which is a common sign symbol of the Blood nation and is very commonly worn by gang members or members associating with those gangs.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He built his career on bringing down powerful people who had run afoul of the law. Today New York`s governor Eliot Spitzer`s political career is in ruins just days after he was linked to a prostitution ring.

GOV. ELIOT SPITZER (D), NEW YORK: I look at my time as governor with a sense of what might have been. There is much more to be done, and I cannot allow my private failings to disrupt the people`s work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With his wife Silda by his side, New York Governor Eliot Spitzer, the man once known as Mr. Clean, addressed his fall from grace. Spitzer did not specifically addressed accusations he spent thousands of dollars on a high-end prostitution ring for several months.

SPITZER: I go forward with the belief as others have said, that as human beings, our greatest glory consists not in never falling but in rising every time we fall. As I leave public life I will first do what I need to do to help and heal myself and my family.


GRACE: You can just leave myself out of that speech. You`ve already thought of myself for about 10 years according to sources, with trysts, with hookers as far away as Florida, Dallas, Texas, New York, Washington, D.C. Where hasn`t this man been with a hooker?

Let`s go straight out to the reporters in this case.

To Richard Roth, CNN correspondent live in the Flatiron district, New York. Richard, what`s the latest? I heard a lot of me, me, me, me, me, in the resignation speech today. When is me going to jail?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s not clear because the U.S. attorney who would be handling this matter, at least part of it, Michael Garcia said no deal has been struck in exchange for Spitzer stepping down to avoid prosecution, a rare statement issued by the prosecutor`s office saying that. Now there still reportedly could be negotiations about some type of deal, but nothing said now. The governor has stepped down.

I`m standing, Nancy, in front of the building where the woman who is believed to have taken the Amtrack train down to the Mayflower for a tryst with Spitzer now lives. And there`s a massive media here. "The New York Times" interviewed her over the phone, published a story where she`s quoted as saying, she hopes she`s not thought of as a monster. She`s Ashley Alexandra Dupre. And in the phone interview with "Times" says, quote, "this has been a very difficult time, it`s complicated."

GRACE: Ashley Alexandra Dupre. Is that a real name?

ROTH: A real name originally Ashley Youmans. She left a broken home at the age of 17, went to New York to become a rhythm and blues singer, but she said she abused drugs, had a hard struggle, had -- her photos are up on a MySpace page. She did testify in court against the people who were arrested, charged with running a prostitution ring, the Emperors Club, last week in New York City. And she`s now believed to be hiding upstairs in her apartment.

GRACE: Richard Roth, the way you just delivered that, what else did she tell you that she`s working her way through college? That she didn`t want to do it, she`s really a good girl?

ROTH: Well, according to the "Times," a man, her boyfriend left her after telling her that he had fathered two other children with someone else. Elsewhere in this "New York Times" interview she -- her mother is quoted as being shell-shocked when her daughter informed her she was working as an escort. The mother said, though, she`s in effect a tough girl. But she is 22. She could handle a man like the governor but she is 22, not 32 or 42, quote, "She`s obviously involved in something much larger than her."

GRACE: According to "The New York Times," this is a picture of Kristen. Kristen is not the only women listed there with the Emperors VIP Club. There is a list of women from which Spitzer had his pick, Helena, Drew, Raquel, Chrissy, Felana, Samantha, Madison, Trina, Sophie, Emily, Michelle, Dorine, Astrid, Aveline, Alyssa, Sophia, gee, they left out Sienna, according to "The Post," she was on the front page this morning, another -- let me just say acquaintance of Eliot Spitzer.

Let`s go unleash the lawyers again. Lisa Pinto, Renee Rockwell, Allen Ripka.

Lisa Pinto, Richard Roth, CNN correspondent is correct. There may not be a deal but my question is, when is somebody going to jail? The last time I looked at the system you don`t have to have a sweetheart deal to get booked.

PINTO: Thank you for saying that, Nancy. The most sanctimonious prosecutor that I knew who threatened to crush anybody who crossed him and he`s afraid to go to jail. Well, right now what I think he`s doing is probably -- he`s giving a proffer to the U.S. attorney`s office. He`s probably going to plea to a 371. He`s going to plea as.

GRACE: I wish you wouldn`t talk that way. Go ahead.

PINTO: Oh, sorry. Well, what he`s going to do is basically -- they`re basically saying you have to cooperate. You have to testify in open court and tell us all about this organization. You have to fess up to all that money you shuffled around, you know, the thousands here and the thousands there, to this shell corporation, this squat -- you knew that money was being laundered. You knew that money was going for prostitution. You have to admit that. You took your name off the wire. You played funny with the money.

GRACE: Well, long story short, to you, Renee Rockwell, it seems as if the feds really didn`t catch on to it until Spitzer started to try and cover up some of the structuring, structuring a legal term of art, to break down big transfers of money into smaller amounts so it doesn`t alert anyone. When he tried to cover his tracks, I believe that`s when a red flag went up, Renee.

ROCKWELL: That`s what my understanding is and that`s what kind of clicked everybody off at the bank and they called the dogs in. But, Nancy, really this is no more than a prostitution case. And when everybody starts getting prosecuted for prostitution, then you should be satisfied.

GRACE: I`ll never be satisfied, Renee, as long as anybody is violating the law.

ROCKWELL: But we`re talking about (INAUDIBLE) prosecution, Nancy.

GRACE: But long story short, again -- I don`t care if he`s the president. I don`t care if he`s the governor. I don`t care if he`s a John out on the street.

And Allen Ripka, we`re looking at a lot more than just a hooker charge here. I mean, did you see that complaint, Ripka?

RIPKA: Well, we sure are. We`re certainly looking at money laundering. We`re looking at using funds, potentially campaign contributions, potentially tax dollars. And he also has other troubles as a lawyer. He has disciplinary issues including ethics and he can lose his license.

GRACE: What do you have to do in New York to lose your license?

RIPKA: Well, a felony is generally automatic. If he pleas to a misdemeanor or something less then he`ll go through some committee fitness hearings and they`ll make a determination if that`s the right sanction.

GRACE: I know I really agree with Renee in one sense. This is a hooker charge, it`s prostitution. Them throwing in the man act and money laundering, technically, yes, Lisa Pinto, they can prove it but I don`t --

PINTO: Nancy, this is the man who staked his reputation on cleaning up Wall Street.

GRACE: I don`t care. He should not be treated anymore different. He should -- the arrest should go down now like for everybody. But he also shouldn`t be prosecuted more extensively than anyone else should.

PINTO: It`s the extensive nature of the transactions. So many times he made sure that the money was hidden. He -- took his name of the wire, he put the money in different kinds of wires. He used his knowledge of the financial system to try.

GRACE: Right.

PINTO: .and avert federal law. This man deserves to be punished to a greater...

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest and an exclusive "PRIMETIME" appearance, Kathleen Mullin. Attorney Mullin represents one of the escorts named in this affidavit.

Kathleen, thank you for being with us. Which one of the people is it?

KATHLEEN MULLIN, REPRESENTS ONE OF THE ESCORTS NAMED IN AFFIDAVIT, MULLINLAWFIRM.COM: Thank you, Nancy. I am not at liberty to tell you, as fond as I am of you, of the exact identity of my client, but she is one of the names that you put up on your screen. Tonight she is a named escort from the public 55-page complaint.

GRACE: Kathleen, is she -- does she believe she`s going to have to testify?

MULLIN: You know, Nancy, I have to say that I don`t believe that she`s going to have to testify. And I tell you very candidly she has no information directly related to any contact that she -- she never had any contact with client number nine.

GRACE: So your client is one of the hookers?

MULLIN: I think we prefer the term escort, but, yes, she`s sort.

GRACE: Escort?

MULLIN: Escort.

GRACE: You know what? I respect that because you said it with a straight face. So you don`t believe she`s going to be a witness. Why?

MULLIN: I think she may be a witness just to the general underlying money laundering complaint which has already passed against the four principals, alleged principals of the ring.

GRACE: Is she going to be prosecuted for prostitution?

MULLIN: I don`t believe so.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll be right back with Kathleen Mullin.

But tonight, across the air waves, get well to Mattie Adams, Preston, Florida. Nearly 89 years old, going strong, fighting back from a heart attack. Get well, Aunt Mattie.



GRACE: Straight back out to Richard Roth, CNN correspondent, standing by the apartment of Ashley Alexandra Dupre. What`s happening?

ROTH: Well, a woman who says she lives on the same floor as Ashley Alexandra Dupre just came out and naturally we quickly surrounded her. She said she was shocked to hear that she was turning tricks. She thought she was a nice girl, has not seen her since this broke. I asked her. "What do you want to know if you see her?" And she said, why? Why, you know, why did this happen?

There`s going to be a lot of media activity here. There`s a lot of hip looking people in this neighborhood with a lot of dogs going in and out. And I don`t think they know what`s about to happen here.

GRACE: Richard, how would you describe the apartment building? Is it nice? Is it expensive? Is it a high-rise? Is it luxurious? What is it?

ROTH: High-rise, expensive. And this woman who said her name was Alina(ph) said it just opened. Young professionals here on the west side of the Chelsea district.

GRACE: I want to go back to Kathleen Mullin representing one of the escorts named in the affidavit against Spitzer.

Kathleen, again, thank you for being with us. Kathleen, I understand that, not your client but another one of her acquaintances, was in the Emperors VIP Club actually met with Spitzer over a year ago. Yes, no?

MULLIN: Yes. That`s -- you know confirms information that I have learned, you know, as I`ve been going along in my representation here. That woman is not a client of mine. I have not had any, you know, confidential conversations with her. But, yes, the timeline dates -- now the timeline appears to be excessive. But, yes, at least a year ago there was another person.

GRACE: Kathleen, when you say excessive, what do you mean?

MULLIN: Well, you know, Nancy, I`m getting information anywhere from two years to eight years, which seems to be prolific, almost bordering on addiction, if you ask me.

GRACE: You know, also following up on that, to Harlan Protass, "Slate" magazine contributor, it is now suggested this has gone back as far as eight to 10 year where the governor would plan a trip out of town and then stay an extra day or two when he would meet hookers.

Now how is it that none of that is on the state dole, Harlan Protass?

HARLAN PROTASS, SLATE MAGAZINE CONTRIBUTOR: That`s an excellent question. If this business travel was for state purpose, it may well be the case that there`s a reasonable justification for him being in those cities. It does not necessarily mean that there`s anything wrong with having a drink or meeting a friend for dinner while on state business there as long as state business is being conducted.

GRACE: But if you extend the trip specifically to have an evening with a hooker you`re spending money specifically to meet up with a prostitute.

PROTASS: Well, you`re making the assumption there that the trip`s purpose was for meeting up with a prostitute.

GRACE: Extending the trip. Extending the trip.

PROTASS: If the trip was extended then you`ve had a question of public corruption here. You might have a case where the government`s office was compromised, where state funds were used for purposes of these liaisons with a prostitute.

GRACE: Harlan, he didn`t have to step down. He did not have to. Why did he?

PROTASS: It`s a good question. I suspect that it was a result of pressure applied from all -- from various sources. Most likely the most important pressure was that in Albany, which politicians, no one standing up and stepping up to support Governor Spitzer.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, Mike, his security team should have been on him like cheap suit. Is it possible that one of them tipped off authorities?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy. I don`t think so. From what I`m hearing from my source that it was not one of his security people of the New York State Police that tipped it off. Now the governor`s detail, they do an advance, they`re there, they have rooms, near by his room. He may say, I`m in the for the night. But I can guarantee you they`re going to be looked into by the FBI public corruption squad to see what exactly they knew if anything.

GRACE: Back to Kathleen Mullin representing one of the escorts named in the affidavit, appearing with us exclusively tonight.

Kathleen, did your client work for the Emperors Club specifically in New York, or was it common to travel to meet clients?

MULLIN: Nancy, you obviously understand the idea that I can`t tell you directly.

GRACE: Right.

MULLIN: .anything my client has said. But my understanding as it has developed over the past week that I`ve been involved with this is that escorts typically working for the club may have had a home base either in New York or Washington or some other location, and also did some traveling on behalf of the club, meeting clients at other destinations. Remember.

GRACE: Why do you call them clients? They`re Johns. They`re criminals.

MULLIN: Well, they`re accused folks at the moment. Everyone is presumed innocent, as you know, including client number nine. But, Nancy, you know, my understanding from the club is that a client like number nine or numbers one through eight could ring up the club and request a certain girl at any spot that the club actually entertained clients. And that could be internationally or nationally. So if the request was for a girl based in New York but for a visit at some other destinations, like, for example, Washington, then that travel would be arranged.

GRACE: And the rest of that sentence that you so correctly quoted, everyone is presumed innocent under the law unless and until that presumption is pierced by the state with evidence to overcome a reasonable doubt.

MULLIN: Indeed.

GRACE: In this case we have Spitzer stepping down because of active (INAUDIBLE) with prostitutes. I would call that all but an admission.

Kathleen Mullin, a veteran trial lawyer here in the New York area, representing one of the hookers on the affidavit, one of the escorts.

MULLIN: Thank you.

GRACE: .as she insists on saying, not your client, but in general, how much do the women make there?

MULLIN: You know, Nancy, the shame of it all from a business perspective with respect to the work of these girls is that on what is purported to be thousands of dollars an hour that is charged to the client, you know and won`t be surprised to find out that the girls make $500, $1,000.

GRACE: You know what? You know what, Kathleen? I hate that.

MULLIN: I know, it`s more than I make an hour, I know.

GRACE: Yes. And with Spitzer, you know, she got paid for four hours and only did two -- according to "The New York post," this is a picture of Kristen. You can take that down quickly, Elizabeth. Thank you.

Let`s go out to the lines. To Kathleen in Florida. Hi.

KATHLEEN, FROM FLORIDA: Hi, how are you, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m fine, dear.

KATHLEEN: I just don`t understand people at work were talking, how does his wife publicly stand by him after all of this comes out? And he`s got three draughts. Doesn`t she owe them something instead of him?

GRACE: Caryn?

STARK: She absolutely owes him a lot. She`s standing beside him right now to help him out and tell the world I`m standing behind him, you should be, too. But her daughters are in trouble as is she.


GRACE: To "HEADLINE PRIME`s" Glenn Beck, hi, friend.

GLENN BECK, HOST, GLENN BECK SHOW: Guys, listen up, if you`re married, got three kids, want to have lots of sex with high-priced hookers, you ought to run for governor of New York.

Spitzer guy, he resigned today. Some are saying part of a sweetheart deal just to keep him out of jail and so he can keep his law practice. That`s great. I personally would like to put him in a very dark hole for a very long time. I`ll have more on that in just a bit.

And then Clinton and Obama hate tax cuts even though they would help the middle class Americans. The fine print next.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Diane in Arizona. Hi, Diane.

DIANE, FROM ARIZONA: Hi, Nancy. Kudos to you, dear heart, and your babies.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

DIANE: Because Spitzer`s been allowed to resign rather than being -- having his butt fired, is that going to allow him to continue receiving his government employee benefits?

GRACE: Joining us tonight, Kathleen Mullin representing one of the escorts named in this affidavit, that first question, Kathleen, and also, why do you believe, since you are inside the case, why do you believe there have been no arrests yet, not of the governor and not of Kristen?

MULLIN: Well, Nancy, as to that question, I mean, obviously, to me and, you know, to most folks watching this thing publicly unfold, it seems like the investigation is ongoing, proceeding forward.

GRACE: OK. And as to her question, the caller`s question, Kathleen?

MULLIN: You know, I don`t know the exact answer.


MULLIN: .to whether or not the governor will be able to get benefits.

GRACE: Kathleen Mullin, a veteran trial lawyer here in the New York area representing one of the escorts named in this affidavit.

Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Jack Sweet, 19, Alexandria Bay, New York, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star and National Defense Service medal. A twinkle in his eye, loved making people laugh, hunting, fishing with dad. Dreamed of a military career. Leaves behind parents Glen and Teresa, stepmom Kenny, brother Christopher, sister Kim.

Jack Sweet, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.