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Nancy Grace
Naomi Campbell Arrested at Heathrow; Brittany Zimmerman Case
Aired April 03, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Pandemonium at Heathrow airport, supermodel Naomi Campbell restrained and hauled away by police at Heathrow International Airport after claims the catwalk queen spit on a cop. That`s right, spit on a cop after a violent altercation, that`s right, in the ultimate show of disrespect on law enforcement. Campbell now looking at jail time on probation rap from her 2006 violent attack on her own maid with a cell phone. Then there was the 2005 beating of an assistant about the face and head with a Blackberry. And oh, yes, the 2005 claim by an actress that Campbell left her bloodied and bruised. Number of undisclosed money settlements in Campbell`s past? Unknown. But one thing`s for sure, supermodel Naomi Campbell tonight in custody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Naomi Campbell -- she has the life of a supermodel, yet she`s the poster child for anger management.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was on this British Airways flight. And this is what we get from passengers. Apparently, she was abusive, aggressive to flight attendants, and the passengers on that flight that say she was handcuffed on the flight. Now, London police officially say that a woman was arrested, but they`re not going to disclose her identity on this one. And you know, she`s been in trouble before. In 2000, she pleaded guilty to an assault charge for beating an assistant, then again pleaded guilty for throwing a cell phone at her maid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, breaking news out of Wisconsin. A gorgeous university coed at the top of her class, heading to medical school, her wedding day set, just found brutally murdered in her off-campus apartment. With little to go on, tonight we analyze the clues left behind in the murder of 21-year-old Brittany Sue Zimmerman (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The death of a 21-year-old University of Wisconsin Madison student is being investigated as a homicide. Police found Brittany Sue Zimmerman dead in her Madison apartment Wednesday afternoon. Cause of death isn`t being revealed. And there are no suspects. It`s also unclear when Zimmerman was last seen alive. She was planning on graduating this fall and attending med school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Residents who live here are not only shocked, they`re scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scared because if it is something really bad, it`s obviously pretty close, so you don`t really want something bad going on where you live.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight: Is supermodel Naomi Campbell in custody for assault on a cop?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like Naomi Campbell`s notorious temper has her in trouble again. CNN has learned the supermodel was taken off a British Airways flight in handcuffs at London`s Heathrow airport. Passengers say there was some kind of a dispute over Campbell`s luggage. Now, the plane hadn`t left the ground and Campbell allegedly became aggressive and abusive with the crew and police, allegedly assaulting one officer, even. You might remember that Campbell had to mop floors at New York`s Sanitary Department as a community service punishment for throwing a mobile phone at her maid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you know, she`s had other run-ins. She`s been charged before, had to do community service in New York for episodes she`s had before, known, of course, for her fiery temper. Again, supermodel Naomi Campbell apparently removed by police for allegedly assaulting a police officer, removed by police from a British Airways plane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is certainly not the first time Naomi Campbell has had, let me just say, a brush with the law. Out to Mike Walker, senior editor with "The National Enquirer." Mike, what happened this time?
MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER": Well, this time, she went to the airport -- and this is, of course, Heathrow`s brand-new pride and joy, terminal six, billion-dollar thing. And of course, you probably heard all kinds of problems with these new automated things, 300 flights canceled. Naomi goes there and she is missing one bag. One bag. She has three bags, she`s missing one. So they said, Look, we`ll find it. We`ll send it on to you.
She starts getting abusive, screaming at people. She`s finally taken into the plane. She got so bad, they took her boarding card away. They said, We`re declaring you not fit to fly. They handcuffed her. They took her off the plane, and that`s when all this hitting policemen and spitting at them began.
She was -- you know, Get your hands off me, don`t touch me, and she started hitting people. Now, in Britain, you know, it`s six months if she gets convicted for the -- on the hitting, four months if it`s on the spitting. But this is just part of a pattern. This is a woman so out of control, I said in my column on the last incident in New York, I said she shouldn`t be allowed back in this country. Remember, she pled guilty...
GRACE: OK, let me get this straight. Let me get it straight. In that jurisdiction, it`s six months for hitting, four months for spitting on a cop?
WALKER: Yes.
GRACE: You know what? Spitting on a cop -- to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Dr. Marshall, that is the ultimate show of disrespect, to spit on a cop.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: And you can infect somebody with something by doing that, too, so it`s degrading in that way. You know, with Naomi Campbell, I think everything is experienced as a severe narcissistic injury, and what I mean by that is when somebody refuses to go along, to make her feel special, to agree, she experiences it as an attack on her self-worth and personhood. When she feels attacked, she attacks back. You add this to the fact that although she`s beautiful, she is aging. She may not be treated as special as she was before.
GRACE: Oh, Bethany! Bethany! Don`t start with the aging! Didn`t you watch the Super Bowl? One of the number one commercials on the entire Super Bowl game was Naomi Campbell dancing with lizards, all right?
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: OK...
GRACE: If she can dance with lizards and be the number one commercial, believe me, her age is not the problem. I don`t know how you drag age into this whole thing, aging beauty.
Back to Mike Walker with "The National Enquirer." You were talking about the actual incident at Heathrow airport.
WALKER: Yes.
GRACE: And Mike, as you know from being a reporter and traveling, anything you do, if you do it in an airport, it`s a heightened severity. Go through the facts with me one more time. What do we believe happened?
WALKER: She went into the airport. One of her bags they told her was missing. Two of the bags went on the plane. She went nuts...
GRACE: Wait! Wait!
WALKER: ... over the missing bag.
GRACE: She had three carry-ons? That`s absolutely unacceptable! They throw me down on the ground and throw my computer laptop back if I have more than two. OK, go ahead.
WALKER: There`s no question when she`s abusive, she still gets away with this stuff. So she got as far as actually screaming and yelling and abusing staff. She actually got on still to the plane, but when she got onto the plane, she apparently was so bad that they just said, You are not fit to fly, took her boarding pass. They called police to escort her off the plane because no way she was going off with airport staff. And when they started grabbing her, she started screaming, Don`t touch me, don`t lay your hands on me. Then she started spitting. Then she started punching and assaulting the officers. She was finally taken out of the airport.
GRACE: To Tom O`Neil, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly," let`s go through her abusive criminal history. What has she got on her record?
TOM O`NEIL, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": I count five assaults that we know of. There is another case of an assistant who pressed charges legally. I don`t know -- on the civil side. I don`t know if there were criminal charges. But this dates back 10 years. You can go back to the first case in Toronto where she was filming a movie. She attacked her assistant with a cell phone.
GRACE: That`s right, 1998.
O`NEIL: Yes. She attempted, according to the assistant, to push this assistant out of a moving cab in Toronto. Naomi denied everything. But then this is where she got off and this is why she continues to do this behavior. She just had to apologize. That was the only legal repercussion she had to agree to then.
GRACE: Well, you know, another thing, it`s Canada, all right?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: And I think they truly believe that apologies are sincere. Here in America, we`re much more rude. And I`m proud of it because an apology alone is not OK for breaking the law. I bet you are sorry after you`re getting fingerprinted. What was after 1998?
O`NEIL: There`s a case in 2004, I believe, or 2003, where she attacked an assistant with a Blackberry, in this case. And then there`s the case in 2005 that you referred to earlier, of where she was in a bar in Rome and got into a fight with an Italian actress that was so terrible, at the end of it, the actress was reported to be covered in blood.
And then there`s the notorious case in 2006, which is really the most outrageous of all. She was picking out some bluejeans one day for "The Oprah Winfrey Show." She accused the maid of stealing them. The attack she did with a jewel-encrusted cell phone...
(LAUGHTER)
O`NEIL: A diva. Isn`t that hilarious? It left this maid with -- needing four stitches in the back of the head. And then when she was charged with this, she didn`t even show up for the court date. She was arrested a month later in London and finally hauled before the judge.
GRACE: And there was a 2006 arrest in London on suspicious -- on suspicion of an assault.
Out to the lines. Cindy in Illinois. Hi, Cindy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I watch your show every night and I love it!
GRACE: Thank you. What do you think about Miss Naomi Campbell?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m wondering if she`s been diagnosed with some kind of illness or does she have some kind of personality disorder?
GRACE: Well, I know she`s gone to anger management. In fact, we were just showing you her walking along on some community service she got for her last incident that we know of, and anger management classes. What exactly are those classes, Bethany Marshall? Look, we`re all angry. Everybody`s angry about something. But that doesn`t mean you spit on a cop and have to be hauled away in handcuffs, I don`t think.
MARSHALL: Well, to the caller`s question, I mean, she could have bipolar illness, and with such a severe incapacitated...
GRACE: Bethany, wait!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Once again, Bethany Marshall, do you have any shred of evidence to suggest she has a mental defect, that she is bipolar, manic- depressive, or are you just dragging that out of the air, just grabbing it for some type of defense?
MARSHALL: I`m saying if she were my patient, I would want to hold this in mind. Also, she was sitting in one of those first class airport lounges. How much had she had to drink? And in anger management classes, what they teach the person to do is to step back and think, instead of just reacting...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... joining us right now is Dr. David Bergman. He is the medical director at Bay Recovery Centers, an anger management specialist. David, thank you for being with us. Weigh in, please.
DR. DAVID BERGMAN, ANGER MANAGEMENT SPECIALIST: Yes. My pleasure to be with you, too. Usually, with people like Naomi who have these anger problems, there are three elements that are usually present, and a couple of them have been mentioned. One is a problem in their personality, either anti-social personalities or narcissistic, as Bethany had said. Another problem, although I`ve never heard this associated with Naomi Campbell, is substance abuse, either drinking or other drugs, particularly the stimulants like crystal methamphetamine.
GRACE: Diet pills?
BERGMAN: Diet pills, as well. Right. And the third issue is the impulse control problem itself, the quick trigger to erupt in anger over issues that would seem as, you know, relative minor slights or not the kinds of things that should trigger this catastrophic angry response.
And what the anger management programs do is they approach any or all of these three problem areas that exist. So you know, for the impulse control problems, as Bethany said, you want to put some kind of a break or a buffer between the trigger to the anger and the person lashing out. So it`s the proverbial, you know, teach the person to count to 10, or have the person take deep...
GRACE: An incredible story, apparently, Dr.Bergman, her anger management classes she was ordered to take by the court didn`t work. Tonight Supermodel Naomi Campbell in custody, being detained after an angry outburst in which she allegedly spit on a cop.
Out to Michael Yost host of E! Radio on XM and Sirius. Michael Yost, what more can you tell us?
MICHAEL YOST, E! RADIO: You know, what I can tell you is that Naomi Campbell, going back all the way to when she started modeling, she had beefs with Tyra Banks. She -- they always had a feud. And that was a rumor back then. But you know, a lot of people have come out close to them and said she started the modeling business and had a beef with Tyra Banks. So she started like this.
And I think it`s just sad when she gets away with, I mean, basically, all this, and nobody does anything. The reason why she keeps doing it, because they just slap her on the wrist and then she moves on. Until somebody steps up and actually does something about it, she`s going to keep doing this. And what`s sad about -- another sad thing is we talk about Britney Spears all the time, but she doesn`t hurt anybody. Tyra Banks has actually -- I mean, Naomi Campbell`s going after people, throwing Blackberries at people. People need to take some action on her.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sheila in New York. Hi, Sheila.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show, and your babies are just beautiful!
GRACE: Oh, I`ve got some new photos for you tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, wonderful!
GRACE: John David sat up for the first time today. But that`s another story. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, Nancy, is I`m so sick and tired of people making excuses for these kind of people. Is this cop able to sue her and really make a mark and do some damage to her?
GRACE: Oh, interesting. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Joe Episcopo, veteran trial lawyer in the Tampa, Florida, jurisdiction, and Michael Mazzariello, veteran trial lawyer and host of "Closing Arguments" radio show in New York.
Out to you, Joe Episcopo. What about a lawsuit, a civil lawsuit by this cop on Campbell? Hit her where it hurts, in the wallet?
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s how all the other cases got resolved. This is how you eliminate the victim in these kinds of criminal cases. You pay them off. It`s a simple way to get rid of it. That`s why she`s been able to do it. This isn`t all that big a deal. This is...
GRACE: Whoa!
EPISCOPO: These are misdemeanors.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa!
EPISCOPO: Nancy, listen...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait a minute! Out to you, Eleanor Dixon. You know, you go to court -- I was in court every day for over 10 years. Who shows up? After they work the night shift, who comes to testify? A cop. Who do you ask for help? A cop. Who do you call when you hear somebody at your window? A cop. Who do you call when somebody breaks into your car? A cop. Cops do not deserve this treatment! So if Joe Episcopo says it`s relatively minor offense, I disagree, Eleanor.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I completely disagree. And it could be a felony here if it was in the United States because not only are you assaulting a police officer, you`re obstructing, as well, because you`re resisting arrest. So these could be felonies, and it`s not just a minor incident.
GRACE: Michael?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with her 100 percent. Here it would be resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, assault. And Nancy, kisses and hugs to the twins.
GRACE: Thank you, but this is not the time for any sucking up.
Back to you, Episcopo. You want to re-rethink that answer that this is a minor offense? Plus, it`s in an airport, Joe.
EPISCOPO: Listen, Nancy, I`ll tell you what. I`ll give you $25,000, you let me spit in your face. Think about that.
GRACE: No thanks.
EPISCOPO: There`s a lot of people that would think nothing of it...
GRACE: No! No, no.
EPISCOPO: ... to let you spit in their face.
GRACE: No. No. But why are you saying this is a minor incident...
(CROSSTALK)
EPISCOPO: It`s a battery. He`s been trained. Many, many more worse things happen to police than this.
GRACE: Well, I`m not saying worse things don`t happen, but I`m saying that this is so disrespectful, and in many cultures, this is about the worst insult you can make on another person. Am I wrong, Eleanor?
DIXON: You`re not wrong at all, Nancy, and I can`t believe this defense attorney has the nerve to say this is a minor incident. She should not...
GRACE: Spitting on cop, uh-uh.
DIXON: Yes, she`s shown her colors. And we know...
GRACE: Especially...
MAZZARIELLO: It happened at an airport.
GRACE: Especially, Pat Brown, as Michael Mazzariello is pointing out, in an airport, there is much more heightened security for obvious reasons.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right. I agree with that, Nancy. But I`m going to sort of play defense attorney myself tonight because I think one of the reasons we see this kind of rage in some people is because of our poor customer service -- the indifference, the condescension...
GRACE: Oh! I cannot believe you are actually trying to blame the airport.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You are projecting, Miss! You are projecting your own anger!
BROWN: I`ve been through that...
GRACE: Can`t hear you!
BROWN: ... myself, exactly, so I can...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Uh-uh! Not listening!
BROWN: I can understand where she`s coming from. I do not think she`s right, I can understand where she`s coming from.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, she was abusive, aggressive to flight attendants. And the passengers on that flight say that she was handcuffed on the flight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would say you`re not going do believe this, but actually, you might. Supermodel Naomi Campbell has been removed from a plane at Heathrow airport, a British Airways flight. So there are Sky News Television reports saying that she was arrested there at Heathrow`s terminal five for allegedly assaulting a police officer. So what we`re hearing from the Metropolitan Police there is that, yes, a 37-year-old woman was arrested there at Heathrow. She was handcuffed and removed from her British Airways flight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, if this had happened stateside in some jurisdictions, she could actually be looking at seven years behind bars for assault on a cop. Yes, it would probably be pled down. Naomi Campbell, with all that money, health, good looks, a felony record pending because of spitting on a cop and causing a ruckus, fighting cops at Heathrow International Airport.
Out to the lines. Sharon in Pennsylvania. Hi, Sharon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I just had a question.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come she hasn`t served any jail time up until, like, this point? Is she going to be getting jail time? You know, all this time, she`s got away with it. I mean...
GRACE: Excellent question. To Mike Walker with "The National Enquirer" and author of "Get Real: The Untold Story." Mike, is she finally going to do jail time?
WALKER: I don`t think so. I don`t think so.
GRACE: Ever the optimist, Mike Walker.
WALKER: Celebrities get off all the time. They get off all the time. People kiss up to them. They suck up to them. They let them off. You just heard this defense attorney...
GRACE: Is it worse in Great Britain?
WALKER: ... say, Oh, it was just...
GRACE: Do they suck up to...
WALKER: ... a minor thing to spit at a cop, you know?
GRACE: Do they suck up to celebs more in Great Britain than they do in America?
WALKER: They do it there, too, yes. And she will get off. I mean, she`s done horrible things. She was arrested for being outside her boyfriend`s house, screaming at him in the middle of the night and resisting arrest again. And the cops just said, Well, we`re not going to arrest you. Good-bye. Go home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You might remember that Campbell had to mop floors at New York`s Sanitary Department as a community service punishment for throwing a mobile phone at her maid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Supermodel Naomi Campbell in custody tonight after spitting on a cop and starting a fight, taken away in handcuffs from Heathrow airport.
Out to the lines. Doris in Delaware. Hi, Doris.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy! How are you, honey?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I want to tell you your babies are beautiful, and so are you! The reason I`m calling is because, you know, it really upsets me how this woman can keep getting away with this and getting away wit this. And you know, what really upsets me, too, is the media. They only say -- you know, when she goes on and everything and she does all these bad things, people are like, basically, loving her more.
GRACE: You know what disturbs me the most, Doris, is that she would have the gall, the arrogance, the feeling of entitlement, that she could not only attack her own assistants repeatedly, but actually attack an officer of the law.
Back out to Tom O`Neil. Mike Walker says no jail time. What do you think?
O`NEIL: Well, this time it might be different because, you know, she`s British-born, remember, and they`re a little sick of her over there. When she had the assault charges here in 2006 against the maid, that was a felony charge. It was second-degree assault felony, minimum one year in jail. What did she end up getting instead when it was all traded down? Five days mopping floors at the New York Department of Sanitation and two days of anger management.
GRACE: OK, so you, Walker, may be right.
Out to Chris in Virginia. Hi, Chris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you this evening?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I`m a law enforcement officer out here. And first I`d just like to say that spitting on me as a person is one thing, but to do it while I`m in uniform is completely different. My question is, at what point is society going to recognize that these are actually people and not some type of god that need to be, I guess, bowed to whenever they do something wrong?
GRACE: You know, Chris in Virginia -- very quickly to Michael Yost. It`s an attack on the uniform, the way he said that. Do you predict jail time, Michael?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 911 call asking police to check on the welfare of a person led investigators to 21-year-old Brittany Zimmerman`s house on West Doty Street. Inside they found the UW student dead. Investigation quickly changed from a suspicious death.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFIER: We are officially investigating a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police aren`t releasing how she died and don`t have any idea who killed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At the top of her class, headed to medical school, her wedding date set, Brittany Sue Zimmerman found dead in her off-campus apartment.
I want to go out to Tony Galli with WKOW.
Tony, what happened?
TONY GALLI, REPORTER, WKOW: Nancy, at this point, we know that Brittany Zimmerman was going through her regular routine. She had a test on campus on Wednesday morning. She returned to her apartment. This was broad daylight but by 1:00 in the afternoon, that 911 call was placed. Published reports indicate that her boyfriend returned to their apartment, found her body, reported that to police and since then, there`s been a massive effort to canvas the neighborhood not only immediately around her campus area apartment but fanning out beyond that.
Police are looking at other crimes, smaller crimes that occurred on that area to see if there are connections. They`re questioning street people here in Madison, Wisconsin. They`re questioning other people. They`re trying to put a dragnet as far out as they can but no suspects, no one that they have announced is in custody at this point.
GRACE: Do we know the last time she was seen alive?
GALLI: We believe that was on campus. She had a relatively major test that she was taking in the morning prior to the homicide and she, according to published reports, had spoken with a family member or family members, so this pins down her activities in those couple of hours before the discovery of her body and this would have been mid morning to early afternoon. But that`s how she`s traced at this point.
GRACE: Very quickly, Tony Galli with WKOW, what time was the body found?
GALLI: The body was found about 1:00 in the afternoon. Why this is perhaps even more chilling for this community, Nancy, is the fact that two months ago, a 31-year-old Madison man, a young professional, a college graduate, who lived about a mile away from Brittany Zimmermann was found dead in his home on an unseasonably warm day as it was Wednesday here in Madison, Wisconsin. He was found around 1:00 in the afternoon.
Again, like our current victim, really no known enemies, living a relatively normal, problem-free life and ends up dead. Police have made no official link between these events but they can see their similarities.
GRACE: Let`s see the map again, Elizabeth. You`ve got the murder that Tony was just describing, Tony Galli. The 2:00 p.m. murder of a male found within one mile of Zimmermann. Also, we know that there was an attempted break and entering just before the murder in the days leading up to the murder.
Out to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted." What more can you tell us, Michelle?
MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: I can also tell you, Nancy, that I asked police earlier today there was also another college student, last summer, last June, specifically, Kelly Nolan, I`m sure you remember, you covered the case.
GRACE: Yes.
SIGONA: She actually went missing from the same town and her body was found about less than 15 minutes away from where both of these murders have happened.
Now, now having said that, Nancy, all three of these murders have not been linked, but of course, investigators are looking at some possible similarities, especially between the Joel Marino case that was just mentioned back in the end of January and this current case involving Brittany.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Rose in Pennsylvania. Hi, Rose.
ROSE, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I just want to tell you how much I love you, I miss you on the Court Channel. Your children are gorgeous. I admire you so much.
GRACE: Thank you.
ROSE: And I just wanted to ask if the boyfriend was a suspect.
GRACE: The boyfriend of the suspect has been cleared. I believe he saw her earlier in the day, went about his business. He came home, to my understanding, and found the body. He has been completely cooperative but let me back that up.
What about it, Tony Galli?
GALLI: You`re right on the mark, Nancy. Police officials here in Madison are saying that the boyfriend has cooperated. They`ve suggested that he has an airtight alibi and, again, their information is that, as you stated, he`s the one who came to that apartment and discovered this alarming situation.
GRACE: Right.
GALLI: So he is not being considered a suspect at this time.
GRACE: Out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and forensic pathologist.
DR. WILLIAM H. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: Good evening.
GRACE: Doctor, question.
MORRONE: Yes.
GRACE: There are reports that this was a stabbing wound.
MORRONE: Yes.
GRACE: If this wound is similar to the wound of the 2:00 p.m. attack, where the male was murdered in an apartment, very similar to this murder, can you tell by the wound if the same type of knife was used?
MORRONE: Sharp force trauma from knives is very specific. A knife has a cutting edge and a dull edge that tears, and the length of the blade. Those are the two things you look for in an autopsy in sharp force trauma and on the multiple organ trauma inside to see if that can match and that will be cataloged for the investigation.
GRACE: Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. What`s your profile?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, since the boyfriend has the airtight alibi, which is only way you can exclude him from being a suspect, you end up with two things. One is, somebody came into the home, maybe to rob the place, and we have just one wound and not a sexual assault, I`d say it`s a guy who lost his temper at that moment and it was surprised by the person being there and attacked them. But if you find it`s a sexual homicide, a lot of stab wounds, you`ve got something else and we may have a connection between then the two females, as opposed to the male and the female.
GRACE: Now we know that the knife in the January attach, the 2:00 p.m. murder, as I call it, of the adult male, in that case, the knife was recovered.
To Tony Galli, do we know anything about that murder weapon?
GALLI: Well, that murder weapon was found in the home of the victim. As you mentioned, it was a bloody knife. It has not been revealed to us. Police have not said publicly whether that was the victim`s knife or whether it was brought in by the perpetrator. And in terms of this current murder of the college student, their sources have indicated to us that there`s still not clarity whether this was a knife or another sharp object so when that is clear, we might have.
GRACE: Right.
GALLI: .more knowledge about whether this was an opportunity crime or somehow planned.
GRACE: Now, the murder weapon in the 2:00 p.m. murder was an (INAUDIBLE), not-so brand knife with a four-inch blade that should be fairly easy to compare up with the body.
I want to go back out to the lines, Nicole in Illinois. Hi, Nicole.
NICOLE, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
NICOLE: Just wondering, has the police looked into possible registered sex offenders or anybody on parole in the (INAUDIBLE)?
GRACE: Good question.
Michelle Sigona, what about parolees and sex offenders? Right now we`re not getting the information whether there was a sex attack, or whether there was a burglary or a theft from the home, Michelle.
SIGONA: Right. That`s exactly -- investigators are keeping those kinds of details at this point because we`re so new into this investigation, Nancy, very close to their vest. So if there was a possible sexual attack, I`m sure that is an avenue that they will explore. But at this particular moment, they are not saying whether she was sexually assaulted or not or if there was forced entry.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Joe Episcopo, Michael Mazzariello. To you, Joe Episcopo, would you advise someone if you were their lawyer, their defense lawyer, to turn themselves in?
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it depends on, you know, the circumstances. Obviously, if they`re looking for your client, you do want to turn them in. You want to try to get a bond and use all those things to assist your client. Turning them in can help.
GRACE: Well, what if they don`t know the identity, Joe? Then what does the defense lawyer tell the suspect?
EPISCOPO: Well, obviously you can`t have your client go and confess to the police at your urging. So, no, you don`t have your client turn him or herself in when no one else knows and they`ve just told you in the confidentiality of attorney/client privilege.
GRACE: To you, Eleanor Dixon, right now, this is being investigated as a homicide. It hasn`t been ruled out as random. What do you think?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Sounds like a homicide to me, Nancy, and perhaps, you know, somebody, as you said, an opportunist, perhaps the same person using the weapon of whatever is closest to that person.
GRACE: Michael Mazzariello, agree or disagree?
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, HOST OF "CLOSING ARGUMENTS": I agree 100 percent, and it really would make a difference if there was force entry, Nancy. That would be key to me.
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live at 21-year-old coed found dead in her off-campus apartment, 21-year-old Brittany Sue Zimmermann at the top of her class, headed to med school, her wedding date set.
I want to thank you from the heart for your prayers and your words, your kind words and e-mails for the twins. Here is John David today. There`s Lucy, Elizabeth. Keep looking. This happened today. John David sat up for the very first time and I happen to have my phone camera with me.
We`ll post these and more on the Web tonight. I hope you like them.
And tonight, happy birthday to a New York friend of the show, Kimberly Tan, a Queensboro college student studying to be a nurse. Isn`t she beautiful?
Happy birthday, Kimberly.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sniff dogs sniffed through the area looking for any clues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clearly this is a devastating and tragic situation and honestly, it`s a shock.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Residents who live here are not only shocked, they`re scared.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police found the body of 21-year-old Brittany Sue Zimmermann Wednesday afternoon after receiving a 911 call but authorities aren`t saying who made that call. And how Zimmermann died also isn`t being revealed, but the family says they were told she had chest trauma.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Who murdered a gorgeous Wisconsin coed, 21-year-old Brittany Sue Zimmermann. Tonight we are searching through the clues left behind.
Out to the lines, Xavier in Georgia. Hi, Xavier.
XAVIER, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hey, how you doing, Nancy? I love your show.
GRACE: Bless you. What`s your question, dear?
XAVIER: I want to know, do they know who the person was who called 911?
GRACE: They do, to my understanding, Michelle Sigona, but they`re not giving it up.
SIGONA: That`s exactly right, Nancy. That`s one -- there`s another thing that they`re not releasing at this point but hopefully, within the next couple days we`ll be able to learn more about that.
GRACE: Didn`t the boyfriend, the fiance, didn`t he discover her body?
SIGONA: That`s from -- that is what we have learned through a few sources that yes.
GRACE: Well, if he discovered her body, wouldn`t it make sense that he called 911?
SIGONA: That would make sense but again, that`s not something that police are saying and they`re not even confirming right now, you know, to the public that, yes, he was definitely the one that found her body. This is, again, something that`s coming out of reports and something that`s coming out from family members and other sources.
GRACE: Lacey in Wisconsin, hi, Lacey. I think I`ve got Lacey, are you with me, dear? OK, let`s go to Diane in Virginia. Hi, Diane.
DIANE, VIRGINIA RESIDENT: Hi. Love your show, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Thank you, Diane. What`s your question?
DIANE: OK. What I want to know is the short time difference when she left school and then she came home, it wasn`t that shortly after that she was murdered. Could she has surprised somebody that had maybe broke in to her home and, you know, just kind of walked in on it and was murdered?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Back out to Tony Galli with WKOW, anecdotally, I observed as a prosecutor that when burglars come in, they don`t really intend to do any violent crime. But if they are discovered or surprised, the scene can go south pretty quickly, Tony. Is there any suggestion that there was a forced entry or that this was a burglary gone wrong?
GALLI: We`re not sure of that, Nancy, but people in the legal community and in law enforcement here in Madison that I`ve spoken to have nonetheless indicated that the nature of this traumatic injury to Brittany Zimmermann perhaps over an attempt to burglarize a laptop, or jewelry or cash seems to be somewhat non-consistent, that level of rage wouldn`t necessarily have been involved, that the student might have said, take it and run. So that is puzzling.
GRACE: What about it, Bethany? Do you agree with that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, when there`s literally this type of overkill, multiple stab wounds, you can think of methamphetamine abuse on the part of the perpetrator or you could also think of a paranoid schizophrenic who`s having what we call command hallucinations, it`s rare and it`s debatable but sometimes it does happen.
GRACE: To Daniel Carter -- he is with www.securityoncampus.org. Daniel, what do you make of this and how can college students protect themselves?
DANIEL CARTER, SECURITYONCAMPUS.ORG: Good evening. One of the things I would like to know is, we`ve seen cases on campuses before, that is where someone will fight back against a stranger, assault, a burglary, a robbery, et cetera, and they can`t provoke that kind of rage, so we have seen that in limited cases before.
In terms of what students can do to protect themselves, first of all, be aware of their surroundings, know what`s going on, lock their doors.
GRACE: Yes? Hold on, I think I`ve lost.
CARTER: And.
GRACE: Go ahead, Daniel.
CARTER: (INAUDIBLE), that`s one of the key things. When you`re picking out a college, you can look for the crime trends on our Web site. You can also read the campus newspaper and for students who are going to be living off-campus, most students actually live off-campus and they need to read the local paper and the crime log in the campus and local papers to find out what kind of crime happens in the areas they`re considering living in.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers. Joe Episcopo, Michael Mazzariello, Eleanor Dixon.
Michael, why do you believe police are refusing to release who called 911? That`s a pretty innocuous fact.
MAZZARIELLO: And you know, Nancy, certain things they`d like to keep secret for the simple fact that if they have a suspect or they think they`re going to apprehend someone, they want to have as least facts out there as possible. This way, when they get a confession or they get a story, they`ll know whether or not that suspect and/or someone is telling the truth. So that`s really why they keep it close to the vest.
GRACE: Joe, agree?
EPISCOPO: Yes, and I also think it`s probably not random. As you know, most homicides, the defendant knows the victim and in this particular case, sometimes when it`s brutal, it shows -- something personal. It indicates here that she had roommates but doesn`t say who they are.
GRACE: Eleanor?
DIXON: I agree with both of them, and I think this is something that could be random because of the nature of those college students perhaps coming home and surprising someone.
GRACE: But multiple stabs, Eleanor?
DIXON: Well, that hasn`t been confirmed, either. They just said chest trauma. So I`m a little curious if that`s blunt force or stab wounds. It could be blunt force trauma.
GRACE: And to Dr. Morrone, the key attributes the medical examiner will be looking for in autopsy.
MORRONE: When he looks, he wants to see whether or not the stab wounds directly related to strangulation, death by bleeding or critical organs were damaged and it`s secondary.
GRACE: You know, a lot of the wounds could be defensive, doctor.
MORRONE: That`s important to see if there`s cast off from the weapon, if there`s defensive wounds, that will all go into the investigation.
GRACE: To Pat Brown, random or premeditated?
BROWN: Well, we don`t know because we don`t know the motive. But I`ll tell you, the sad thing, I agree with Bethany, this could be a methamphetamine type of fellow because you`re talking about college students picking housing and it`s usually cheaper housing and some of the areas they live have a lot of low-lives rolling around them. And it`s very, very scary.
So parents, watch where your children get their houses.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Kelly in Wisconsin. Hi, Kelly.
KELLY, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love. What`s your question?
KELLY: I`m pretty local to this and there have been reports of male loud voice yelling the night before around midnight. Has there been anything founded by that?
GRACE: What about it, Michelle Sigona?
SIGONA: This is actually one of the first times that I`ve heard of this, the male loud voice yelling, but I can tell you that tonight I will put another call in to investigators to find out what they know about that and if they are releasing details on that loud voice.
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GRACE: To HEADLINE PRIME`s Glenn Beck. Hi, friend.
GLENN BECK, HOST, "GLENN BECK SHOW": Well, after dishing it out, a steady diet of no truths, half-truths for the last 20 years, now it`s time for the Clintons to deal with their little rain on their parade.
Bill and Hillary, it`s called karma.
We`ll have more on that in just a bit.
Then a Georgia judge ordered white lawyers out of his courtroom so he could lecture black defendants. If you`re wondering why, I`ll ask him myself, straight ahead.
And then what if your car ran on air? I`ll show you one that does. Why isn`t this leading the news every where? Details on that and more.
GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE on the hunt for parents who inspire and now tonight`s extraordinary parent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This past February, the lives of friends Brandy Arnold and Christie Lauren changed forever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we woke up, the phone was ringing off the hook. It was (INAUDIBLE) Navy calling us to tell us a tornado was headed our way and that we needed to take cover.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The young mothers decided it would be safest to hold together at Brandy`s house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just like (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Clutching their infants, 4-month-old West and 6- year-old Kaylen, Brandy and Christie were (INAUDIBLE) across the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was our porch. We were standing beside our porch and we were dead center of our house here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Among many injuries, baby West suffered skull fractures and a bruised spleen. Brandy, a broken arm and pelvis, baby Kaylen, skull fractures and a broken leg. Christie, cracked ribs, cracked vertebrae and a broken hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By the Grace of God, we`re still here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today, all four are recovering and planning for the future.
We both said they`re going to be boyfriend and girlfriend when they get older. I`m sure that West is really proud (INAUDIBLE). Not sure how is that going to work out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Randy Pickering, 31, Bovi, Minnesota, killed, Iraq. Pickering, who had a degree in can computer programming loved video games and comic books. Survived by sister Sheila, brother Christopher, father Bruce, half-sister Amy.
Randy Pickering, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but our biggest thanks to you for inviting us into your home. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
