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Nancy Grace

Half of FLDS Teens Under 18 Said Pregnant or Mothers

Aired April 28, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: The single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history after a secret and desperate phone call for help. The number of children rescued off an isolated Texas compound on the rise, up even higher over the weekend to 463 children, plus 100 women, pulled off by the busload from behind the walls of a remote desert compound.
Headlines tonight. Texas authorities reveal stunning news, the number of teen pregnancies behind compound walls actually three in five. That`s right, three in five girls as young as 14 giving birth or pregnant. And tonight: With mass relocation of compound children to foster homes, have some actually been lost, or have they been abducted by FLDS followers? Reams of documents mysteriously titled "The Bishop Records" discovered hidden behind compound walls. What do they reveal? While other jurisdictions turn a blind eye to systematic marriages and childbirth with girls as young as 13, the Lone Star State braces for legal battle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CPS says more than half of the teen girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are pregnant or have already given birth. According to a CPS spokesperson, there are 53 girls that were living on the polygamist ranch from 14 to 17 years old. And of those 53, 31 have had children or are pregnant right now. Meanwhile, an attorney for the FLDS mothers says there are two children whose whereabouts are unknown and their mothers are worried sick, while CPS says all the children have been accounted for and the attorney may not even have the right master placement list for foster care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force here. Everyone has their choice to do exactly what they would like. There is no force. And we want our children and they want us. They are clean and pure, and this is the worst thing that has happened to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: They sat by and prayed while their little girl suffered and died. Though not attached to any specific religion and claiming they have nothing against doctors, they sat by for a solid month while the child wasted away, went into a coma and finally died from a simple and treatable malady, type one diabetes. Extreme child abuse shrouded in religion? 911 calls capture relatives begging, begging for medical help. And why aren`t these parents in jail?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On March 23, 2008, medical and law enforcement personnel were dispatched to the Dale and Malani Newman (ph) residence in the town of Weston as a result of a call from Ariel Gomez (ph), a relative living in California.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister-in-law is -- her daughter is severely, severely sick, and we believe now she is -- she believes her daughter is in a coma. And she`s very religious, so she`s refusing to take her to the hospital. So I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kara was transported to St. Claire`s (ph) Hospital, where attempts to revive her were unsuccessful and she was declared dead.

You have a child that is not eating, is not drinking, really is not moving, is not walking, isn`t able to speak. Based upon my review of the Kara Newman death investigation and the pertinent law, I have issued the charge of second degree reckless homicide against both Malani Newman and Dale Newman. This is a class D felony, punishable by up to 25 years in prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The number of teen pregnancies, girls as young as 14 giving birth and rescued from a polygamous compound located in the Texas desert, skyrocketed to every three in five girls. And have some of these children relocated actually been lost during the rescue, or have they been abducted by FLDS followers who skipped town? Tonight, live to Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The service says nearly 60 percent of teen girls between 14 and 17 on the compound are or have been pregnant. In a statement given today, CPS says of the 53 girls ages 14 to 17, 31 of them are pregnant or have already become mothers. While the allegations of sexual abuse on the compound continue, and the FLDS children are now safely in foster care, authorities reveal more evidence uncovered from the YFZ ranch, including 45 computers and half a dozen laptops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state is saying that children as -- young girls as young as 13 or 14 are selected from -- and forced into marriage. Is that true?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is not true. I had a choice when I was married.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How old were you when you married?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eighteen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We definitely have a choice. Nobody is forced. We are not abused.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And everyone can say the same thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like, are there any young women ages 16 and under who marry out here? And how often does that happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not real common.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How young would you say was the youngest girl that`s been married out here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably 16.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I`ve got an update for all the women out there on that compound, three out of five girls, teens pregnant after these forced, plural marriages.

Let`s go out to CNN correspondent Susan Roesgen standing by. She`s there at the YFZ, Yearning For Zion, ranch. Susan, first of all, what can you tell me about this number? We know that the number of children went up over the weekend. Don`t understand that. Number two, three out of five girls, teenage girls, pregnant on that compound?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right, Nancy. That means, in a criminal case, you could have 31 cases of statutory rape. That`s what it would be in a criminal case, 31 girls raped by relatives. The Child Protective Services agency here in the state of Texas says, yes, they have now decided, because of some shifting numbers and some girls who `fessed up and some lawyers who told correct ages that they didn`t have before, that 25 girls who were in the Coliseum claiming to be over the age of 18 were actually under the age of 18, they all either pregnant or have had children.

Plus, now they say there were six girls taken away from the ranch in the initial raid that also, Nancy, are either pregnant right now or had children. That`s a total of 31 girls pregnant or had children illegally here. Under Texas laws, it would be statutory rape.

GRACE: To Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, when you ask these women, all they talk about is how sacred their shared husbands and their marriages are. No mention that at about 13, you`re forced into a polygamous marriage and you give birth by 14.

MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Yes, it really bolsters the state case. You remember, from the beginning of this, the state said they had to remove all 400-something kids from this ranch because there was a problem. There was systematic grooming of teenage girls to become these child brides and bear the kids of these dirty old men on this compound. What we are learning today is a little bit more about the state`s case, like we`ve been talking about, 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17, 31 of those were either pregnant or have already had a kid. It shows a lot about what`s going on on this compound.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by at the compound. Susan, how is it that the authorities didn`t already know this, we`re just learning about this many little girls being pregnant? How did they not know? Can`t they look at the girls and tell?

ROESGEN: Well, Nancy, they said that in some cases, that`s what they did. They looked at the girls and said, There`s no way you`re 18. You`re obviously under 17. That was one reason. Another reason, they said, was that some of the girls` attorneys came forward over the weekend and said, My client is not over the age of 18, she`s actually 15, 14, 16.

And the third reason, Nancy, was that some of the girls themselves `fessed up to it and admitted that they were juveniles, perhaps, Nancy, because only the juvenile women -- only the juvenile girls, rather, only the girls who had had children, were allowed to stay with their children in the shelter. So maybe these girls decided, Hey, if we don`t `fess up and say that we`re mothers of these children, we`ll be back at the ranch behind me instead of with our kids in the shelter.

GRACE: Incredible. Three out of five girls there Pregnant, already starting at age 14.

Let`s go to the lines. Anthony in Ohio. Hi, Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, friend. How are you.

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look great. And I wanted to tell you I love the twins. But my question for you this evening regarding this is I`m wondering how does the latch (ph) law come into play here in Utah, Texas and Colorado?

GRACE: I`m sorry, couldn`t hear you. The what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latch law.

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Michael Board. Are you familiar with the latch law?

BOARD: I`m not familiar with the latch law, but if he`s talking about kids who are here in Texas being latched onto parents maybe in Utah or Arizona, yes, that`s a definite problem. You know, some of the parents of these kids very definitely, they could be in Utah and Arizona. If they find out if the kids in here Texas were underage when they were statutorily raped by these dirty old men, yes, definitely, Texas will bring charges against the men, no matter where they are in this country.

GRACE: Excellent question, thank you, from Ohio.

I want you to take a listen to what some of the women on this compound have to say. All along, they have been denying to the media and everyone else that there are any underage marriages going on. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They took my little 7-year-old girl. They lied to us. CPS lied. And she told me a few days ago, she said, Mother, all they do is lie. They`re just telling us lies and lies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What lies?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, They tell us one thing and they do another thing. They say we`re going to be together and they don`t let us be together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do 14, 15 and 16-year-old girls get married here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking about our children now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand, but does that happen here? Are 16- year-old girls married to older men here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We -- this is about our children. This is about our children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you share a husband with many other wives?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I care not to answer that at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is sacred to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that to mean you do share a husband with other wives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It may or may not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is life like here? I don`t think people can comprehend...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know the definition of Zion?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heaven on earth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe you life in heaven on earth?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. This is what I do. It is heaven on earth to me. I am not abused. I am not brainwashed. I am a living person. I have a hard time making CPS realize this. I am a human being with a heart. I am not abused. I have only been loved, worked with. My husband has been the most patient man in the world with me, loving me and helping me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. That`s from ABC`s "Good Morning America." That was the first time some of the women from that polygamist compound raided were speaking -- emotional, but if you take a look, they act like they`re crying, but there aren`t any real tears. And they continue to dodge allegations about underage girls forced to marry older men.

Back out to the lines. Eileen in North Carolina. Hi, Eileen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just live for pictures of your babies.

GRACE: Oh, I`m going to have some new ones for you. John David`s actually trying to stand up. He`s not even crawling yet, but he`s trying to stand up. I`ll get those for you. Thank you. What`s your question, dear?.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, some of these little 13, 14- year-old little girls that are forced to have babies by these dirty old men, what would be some of the long-term effects on them? Will they have post-traumatic stress, or do they stand a chance of ever having -- getting over this and having a normal life?

GRACE: Let`s go straight out to the specialist. Joining us tonight, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. Bethany, these women, like the one we just heard that was talking about her shared husband, sometimes with up to 22 wives, they`re sharing one husband -- they say they`re not brainwashed. But Bethany, when you`re brainwashed, do you know you`re brainwashed?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, you know what? In order to know that you`re not being protected and you`re not having a sense of privacy, you have had to have first had a experience of protection and privacy, which they have not had.

But I have bad news for your caller, and that is the 4, 5 and 6-year- olds who may have been molested, because I have heard reports of that -- they`re going to have profound learning disorders, psychiatric issues, and there`s going to be profound medical issues for them. 13, 14, 15-year- olds, yes, will have post-traumatic stress disorder with psychiatric issues, but it`ll be more feelings of pervasive guilt, that the world is a bad place, that they cannot trust anybody.

I`m also concerned these woman are taking -- the moms are taking no responsibility for the fact that their children have been taken from them. They`re completely externalizing the blame, placing the blame on the state. I have a word for the moms. You and only you are responsible for getting your children back by accepting responsibility, complying and removing sex offenders from your midst. It`s not the state`s problem, it`s your problem to show a burden of proof that you know how to be a protective mother.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, Joe Lawless. Out of New York, Doug Burns, both veteran trial lawyers. Gentlemen, brainwashing? BS because these women, Joe Lawless, know enough, when CPS -- Child Protective Service -- workers question them -- they know not to give a last name, not to give a DOB -- date of birth -- not to give any details that would identify the children or point to plural marriage. When you`re crazy, you don`t have the ability to lie at that level.

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`re not talking craziness, Nancy. You`re almost talking kind of a -- a hypnotic state...

GRACE: Stockholm syndrome? Good luck!

LAWLESS: Well, I don`t know. I mean, you look at them, they sound sincere. They seem to know what they`re doing. I don`t think you can say they`re brainwashed, but I don`t know if you can say they`re responsible for their actions, at this point.

GRACE: Doug Burns, you know, they have set themselves apart from our society, but theoretically, they will be tried under our society`s laws. And brainwashing may be a defense. Insanity may be a defense. Neither one`s going to work with these women or the men.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think you make a good point. What happens is, is that you can claim religion and religious beliefs all day long, but there comes a point in time, and I think your thesis is, when it runs so far afoul of societal notions. But back to what Joseph was saying. I mean, these women are very robotic. I`m not a psychiatrist, but I`ll tell you what. Their behavior`s bizarre, and I think you may be right that it`s really not going to help.

GRACE: Well, I`ve seen a lot of bizarre behavior in court, but it never amounted to much of a defense.

Joining me right now, Bruce Colbert. He`s a representative of Kidz Harbor, housing 33 of the FLDS relocated children. Mr. Colbert, thank you for being with us. I understand that there`s an actual -- we have obtained a list of guidelines about how to handle the children from the ranch, including deep distrust of all outsiders and government. They`ve only had non-pasteurized milk up until this time. Even the children at this young age, especially the young boys, making derogatory remarks to staff members of color. They have been taught a lot on that ranch, haven`t they, Mr. Colbert.

BRUCE COLBERT, KIDZ HARBOR, HOUSING 33 FLDS CHILDREN: Well, I can honestly tell you that the two days or three days, two-and-a-half days that the children have been in our facility, we haven`t experienced any of that. And these children seem to be very well behaved. (INAUDIBLE) adjustment time, but we`re enjoying having them in our facility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My oldest girl saw these other girls going down, and so she came to me and says, They`re going to take me. Mother, they`re going to take me. Don`t let them take me. I don`t want to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need our children. And they said, If you don`t make your choice right now, then you`re not going to have a choice. And I said, Wait a minute. Tell me what`s going on. And they told me that if I didn`t do what they said, that I`d be arrested. And I took longer than they wanted me to talk to them, so they start -- OK, you don`t have a choice now, you`re just going on this bus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It has now been revealed that three out of five teen girls behind those compound walls are pregnant, starting at ages 14. And now we learn some of the children are allegedly missing. Has there just been a miscount? Has the state of Texas actually lost them, or have members of the FLDS come and taken the children?

Out to Susan Roesgen. What do we know about the missing -- the alleged missing children?

ROESGEN: Well, we know that one lawyer represents two mothers, Nancy. One is the mother of an 11-year-old boy. The mother does not know which of the 16 group homes this child has been sent to. The other mother, Nancy, had seven children, six of them sent to four different shelters, but the youngest, a 2-and-a-half-year-old girl, the mother doesn`t know where that child is.

Now, the state hates that word "missing." The state does not want to use the word "missing." The state says every child that left the San Angelo Coliseum has been accounted for and is in one of these shelters. The trouble is, the names are basically the same on a lot of the kids. The list of all the kids is changing. And Nancy, even the state admits that there are some children that the parents may not know which shelter they`ve gone to.

GRACE: To Michael Board with WOAI Newsradio. Michael, what kind of security is there at all of these various relocation areas for the children? How do we know FLDSers aren`t coming and taking the children?

BOARD: Well, I can speak for the shelters that are here in the San Antonio area. Yes, there is armed security in the shelters here in the San Antonio area. And we -- you can only guess that there`s similar security at other shelters. These shelters usually deal with kids that are taken in situations like this. They have security out there. Not likely that someone would be able to get in, get a kid and get out without anybody noticing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the next thing we know is, to me it seemed like hundreds of trucks and cars came and surrounded the schoolhouse. And these armed policemen, they had taken the girls, got them on the bus, pulled them away from their mothers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Flora Jessop, former polygamist and child bride. She is now the director of Child Protection Project. Flora, thank you for being with us. This shocking number, three out of five girls pregnant or already given birth -- are you surprised?

FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS CHILD BRIDE: Oh, Nancy, not at all. I would actually be surprised if the numbers don`t continue to go up as to the numbers of young girls that have been forced into sexual relations -- "heavenly relations," I guess, is what it`s called on the compound -- with these much older men. One of the things that I`ve noticed is with the parade of the young men that have been on the compound, and where are the old guys that these young girls were forced into marrying? You don`t see any of these old men coming forward and doing interviews and beginning their DNA testing. And what happened to all these guys?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: This ring belongs to me. I take care of the little girls in here. And you can see, their beds are empty. This is where we hang our dresses. This is another bedroom. Some of the older girls live in this bedroom. This is their closet where we hang their dresses and keep their books. They have vitamins.

Come see our backyard. We`re out in our backyard. We have grass. They come out and play on the grass. This shelf right here is for our shoes. It`s generally full or children`s shoes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Amidst new reports that certain children are actually missing, children taken from the compound, now they`re relocated in Texas foster homes. We also learned that three out of five teen girls pregnant behind these compound walls.

Out to the lines. Tommi Jean in Tennessee. Hi, Tommi Jean.

TOMMI JEAN, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hello there, Nancy. Glad you took my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling dear. What`s your question?

TOMMI JEAN: I want to know if these children are having these babies naturally or by Caesarean, or -- and do they have any anesthetic and how about the mothers? Do they have facilities?

Congratulations on your twins.

GRACE: Tommi Jean, thank you very much for your congratulations. I appreciate that.

I want to go out to Michael Board. What do we know about the conditions of the births?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Yes. There is a clinic on the Yearning for Zion ranch. There was a doctor that does work, not only for this cult, but also for the cults that are in the Utah, Arizona border, and possibly a cult actually similar to this one up in the Colorado area.

He is one doctor and yes, he has been questioned by Texas authorities to his role in all of this. It brings up the serious legal question: if he is performing births of underage teenage girls and he`s not telling anybody, yes, under Texas law, he would be liable. It is a doctor`s code he is supposed to come forward and say that this is happening. He has not come forward so it`s interesting. We are waiting to see what will happen. He has been interviewed.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Joe Lawless, Doug Burns.

Doug Burns, is there a chance he would lose his medical license?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely. You talk about two different fronts. First of all would be the licensing situation, which is under either the Hippocratic Oath or medical licensing procedures that he fouled up by participating to, in a criminal context, could be aiding and abetting in a crime clearly, or covering up knowledge of a crime.

GRACE: Agree, Lawless?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I think the doctor`s in big trouble if he`s knowingly engaging in that kind of stuff.

GRACE: So you two are not advocating freedom of religion for the doctor? I`m stunned.

LAWLESS: Not in this case. Not in this case.

GRACE: So he is different from all of the cult members?

LAWLESS: I think so, sure. He`s -- first of all, it`s not his religion.

GRACE: OK. But they`re all doing the same thing. They are all standing by and allowing the systematic marriage, euphemistically putting it, of the 13, 14-year-old girls that then are forced to give birth. And nobody`s doing anything about it except for now finally in the state of Texas.

Out to the lines. Ann in New Jersey. Hi, Ann.

ANN, NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. God bless your show.

GRACE: Thank you very much. What do you think about this whole polygamous ranch?

ANN: Let me tell you, honestly, financially speaking approximately how much money has been saved by not paying the FLDS moms since the children are now in foster care?

GRACE: Oh, I wonder about that.

Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent, is actually joining us from Yearning for Zion ranch.

Apparently, I know there are some jobs behind the ranch walls. They leave the ranch for work, they had jobs on the ranch, but many of the mothers are accepting welfare. The whole plural marriage thing doesn`t hold up with welfare, Susan. How much money are they taking?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it could be millions and millions of dollars if you add up all of Warren Jeffs`s empire, Nancy, because man may have seven wives, and he would support the first but the other six would go out and file for welfare.

Yes, there are construction jobs that keeps this place alive, but there are also a lot of people filing for welfare. I want to throw out another number, though, Nancy, they are estimating now that the cost, just so far, in this case, it`s still just really a custody case, not a criminal case yet, the costs so far to the local counties, $900,000.

GRACE: And you know what, I think that amount needs to be levied against the FLDS.

Out to Stephen Singular, the author of "When Men Become Gods," it`s all about Warren Jeffs whose cult a fear and the women who fought back.

Stephen Singular, as zany and bizarre and, in my mind, illegal, as this cult`s activities are, and it`s a huge compound. Everybody knows it`s there. They`re hiding in plain sight. What control does Warren Jeffs, who`s far away from them, have over them?

STEPHEN SINGULAR, AUTHOR OF "WHEN MEN BECOME GODS": Well, I think he had a lot of control, even after being arrested in August, 2006. He was picked outside Las Vegas, and then he went to jail in a place called purgatory in Utah where he awaited trial. And it was known that his brothers would go in. They took orders from him and other people would go in and get the orders. He -- they would go back, tell the people to stay in Colorado City or Hilldale, Utah or to go on down to Texas.

That`s how they all got there. He was sending down the chosen few people to go down, because ironically they thought it was much safer down there than it was in Colorado City and Hilldale, Utah. The law enforcement had started to move in on them there in the past few years. They were investigating. They were bringing criminal indictments. Jeffs had gone underground. So he said, let`s find a place where we`ll be safe, Yearning for Zion ranch, Heaven on Earth. So this is quite ironic.

Also, Nancy, you`d alluded earlier to some racial comments, perhaps. There`s a strong racial component in this as well. Jeffs referred to black people as filthy and immortal people. He was terrified of black culture, of black music, so it would be very ironic if, in fact, the call that started all this came from an African-American woman, if we learned that that`s true.

GRACE: You know, it`s just abhorrent to me if these reports are true, this cultural awareness guide for the children, how to handle them since they`ve been relocated. The children this young have been poisoned, poisoned with racial hatred.

Stephen, why? Why would they do that?

SINGULAR: Well, they simply believe that they are God`s chosen people and they are white. Jeffs went out of his way to, you know, keep the women fully clothed so their skin would not get any darker. There are stories that he actually chose people to breed so that they would -- you know, the whitest among them would breed or harkening all the way back to the Nazis.

So it`s just -- it`s something that`s been taught in their culture. It`s why they got so isolated. They don`t want to be part of modern culture or modern other aspects of our culture and I think it is poisonous.

GRACE: You know, Stephen Singular with us.

Stephen, how is it that they are allowed to exist and break laws, laws about violent crime on little girls as young as 13. They exist and nobody does anything about it.

SINGULAR: Well, as most people know by now, there was a famous raid in 1953 in Arizona.

GRACE: Right.

SINGULAR: And it ended badly. And law enforcement, politicians just backed off of this, they say that it`s too hot for us to handle. A lot of credit goes out to generations of women, women like Flora Jessop whom you have on, women like Laura Chapman, who`s a main figure in my book.

Laura went to the governor of Utah 10 years ago and pounded on the door and says this isn`t about polygamy, this isn`t about religion, this is about crimes against minors, against girls, rape, incest, et cetera. The governor basically didn`t do anything. They kept pounding, they kept forcing, and it`s these women who have brought law enforcement into this and driven it all of this forward. And they deserve a lot of credit for what they have done.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI.

Mike, I`m -- concerned about the security for these children. They are already -- they have gone through so much. Now they are -- they don`t understand why they are being torn away from their mothers. Now we have to worry that some of them are missing?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, we don`t know exactly how many fathers we have. We have all these women that we see but you never see any of the men. You know, who do these kids belong to?

This is a genetic nightmare for this whole case, especially for investigators. They won`t be able to start putting -- connecting the dots, hopefully, Nancy, criminally, when they get the DNA results back in about a month, because there can be men that are -- not living there, they could be living in Colorado, in Utah. You know, and we`re talking statutory rape, we`re talking bigamy, possibly incest.

You look at Warren Jeffs, their exalted leader, Nancy. He was convicted in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl to have sex with her older cousin. That`s incest.

GRACE: Everybody, we are switching gears and when we come back, they sat by and prayed while their little girl suffered and died from a treatable form of diabetes. As we go to air, why aren`t the parents behind bars?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: At least three agonizing weeks go by for 11- year-old Kara Neumann, all ending in her death. The little girl suffering from diabetes. Her parents refusing to take her to the doctor for care. Instead, the Neumann praying for their daughter to get better. But as Kara began to show signs of deterioration by not being able to walk, eat or drink, that`s when prosecution say, any normal parent would seek medical attention. But the Neumann`s did not and tonight that`s why they`re facing not only the loss of a child, but second-degree reckless homicide charges.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: They sat by while their daughter wasted away, went into a coma, and finally died. The 10-year-old little girl was suffering from type 1 diabetes. When asked later, the father said if facing the same situation with another of their children, he would do the same thing again.

They also go on to state that illness in an individual is due to sin. So I guess the 10-year-old little girl was a real sinner because they let her sit by and die. Why aren`t these parents behind bars?

To Dan O`Donnell with Newsradio 620 WTMJ.

Dan, charges came down. What are they and why are these two not behind bars?

DAN O`DONNELL, REPORTER, NEWSRADIO 620 WTMJ: Both Dale and Leilani Neumann, Kara`s parents, have been charged with second-degree reckless homicide, which in Wisconsin, is a class D felony, meaning it`s punishable by 25 years in prison and a maximum of $100,000.

There was some question as to whether there would be any arrests on this case or criminal charges because the Neumanns apparently did believe that they were acting in the best interests of their child, and in fact, that night, on Easter Sunday, when Kara died, Dale Neumann was interviewed by police who said, "You`re not under arrest, don`t worry, you`re not going to be placed under arrest."

And so far they have not. Now they will be in court on Wednesday where bail could be set. They could be taken into custody and those charges will be formally handed down.

GRACE: Now you stated that the maximum is 25. What is the minimum?

O`DONNELL: Well, the minimum is, because of truth in sentencing, somewhere near what that would be. But there is no minimum that they would face. And of course, they have to be convicted of this first. And this obviously raises a very interesting first amendment issue, where the parents` freedom under the first amendment to practice religion as they see fit, in essence, conflicts with the criminal code here in Wisconsin.

GRACE: Well, actually, according to this U.S. Supreme Court decision I`ve got in my hands here, U.S. versus Funkhauser.

O`DONNELL: Right.

GRACE: .it`s really not a mystery. The freedom of religion amendment to our constitution does not apply to cases where children actually die due to the exercise of that religion. And frankly, in this particular religion, Dan O`Donnell, they do not associate themselves with any, let me say, organized religion. They state they have nothing against doctors.

So where does this fit into their religion? They had HMO cards, they had insurance papers, they had a syringe with some type of medicine in it. So if they have insurance, and they gave insurance to their employees in their coffee shop, then why didn`t they take the kid to the doctor?

O`DONNELL: Well, that`s the question that everybody wants to know, and in fact, according to the criminal complaint, which I have here in my hand, there is an e-mail from Dale Neumann, that says, quote, "We need agreement in prayer over our youngest daughter who`s very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength." It`s then signed, "Blessing and faith, Dale and Leilani Neumann." That signed the night before young Kara died.

I don`t know why it was OK to have HMO cards, but not take Kara to a doctor and that`s something that prosecutors going to have to find out.

GRACE: To the Dr. Zhongxue Hua, with the New Jersey medical examiner`s office.

Dr. Hua, thank you for being with us. What is the process of dying through type 1 diabetes? I understand it is extremely painful.

DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION CO., N.J. MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. (INAUDIBLE) sort of (INAUDIBLE) what we call a medical emergency symptom is called diabetic ketoacidosis, which mainly because of the disease in your pancreas which cannot produce insulin. It causes lots of different symptoms. The most significant symptom is you have -- you have lots of problems in terms of breathing properly, you`re putting through yourself into coma because of electrolytes imbalance. It`s a very painful process.

GRACE: Dr. Hua is joining us from our New York set.

I want to go to a special guest now, Brian Gordon, this is little Kara`s step grandfather.

Mr. Gordon, thank you for being with us.

BRIAN GORDON, STEP-GRANDFATHER OF GIRL WHO DIED FROM UNTREATED DIABETES: Thank you.

GRACE: Mr. Gordon, what do you make of the charges that were just handed down?

GORDON: First of all, I need to set the record straight.

GRACE: OK.

GORDON: I need to set it clearly straight. First of all, there was no languish (INAUDIBLE) Kara Neumann for several weeks like everybody in the news media reports it to be. This was a very sudden and very quick situation that happened just in the last couple three or four, few days of her life. It was not something that was on for weeks and weeks and weeks.

GRACE: That`s not what her children told the police, Mr. Gordon. Her children told police, in front of her parents, OK? These are Kara`s brothers and sisters, that she had been sick for weeks. When the parents tried to say something different, the children kept step forward and went no. She`s been sick for a long time.

GORDON: Well, I can assure you, I spoke with Kara myself six days before she passed away and she was in the coffee shop at Weston, having a great time, enjoying herself, laughing and doing things that 11-year-old children do. She was not in any sign of illness at that point and that was just six days before she passed away.

Now there`s a lot of things that can be said and will be said in the media. And I can understand that. But we live in a country that somebody is supposed to be innocent before proven guilty and I can tell you, clearly and succinctly, that I stand with my daughter and I stand with my son-in- law, and I believe these charges are absolutely baseless.

You have to realize, and you being somebody of a legal mind would appreciate, that in order for it to rise to the level of a criminal situation or a criminal charge, there has to be proven clearly and succinctly there was criminal intent. And even the chief of police of Weston in your own show last month made it very clear that this did not rise to the level of criminal intent. There was no intent to harm Kara. And those were his words, not mine.

Now I understand that there`s things that have to take place, I understand there`s things that need to go on forward, but we are a family that has believed in God. I myself was born and raised in a home where we didn`t believe in doctors, either. And I never saw a doctor until I was the age of 18 when I joined the Navy.

So I stand with my daughter. I stand with my son. There was no abuse. There was no kind of neglect. There was no reckless endangerment for these children. The other three children are just as healthy as any other child in America. And these people love their children, they love their family and they`re devoted. And I guarantee you, they will be exonerated.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: I want to go straight out to a special guest joining us tonight, Shawn Peters, author of "When Prayer Fails."

Shawn Peters, I understand the Wisconsin statute, but a charge has been handed down. Why aren`t the parents behind bars?

SHAWN PETERS, UNIV. OF WIS. SCHOLAR, AUTHOR OF "WHEN PRAYER FAILS": Well, that`s an excellent question. I think if you the district attorney she might say that they don`t represent a flight risk, that they don`t represent a danger to their children or their surviving children because they are..

GRACE: See, that`s where I disagree, Shawn, because when asked, the father said he`d do the same thing all over again.

PETERS: Right. Right. And -- yes, you`d have to ask the district attorney. It`s not clear to me. I think come Wednesday when they actually are brought in for an arraignment.

GRACE: Yes.

PETERS: .I think that that might actually change. So they might be out on the street now but I sort of doubt that they will be on Tuesday or Wednesday. I think that they`ll have to post some bail at least.

GRACE: Now the mother who refused to take the child to the doctor says that she was a member of Women of Favor, a faith -- based group out of Arkansas. They claim they have nothing to do with this group. Women of Favor claimed they have nothing to do with the woman whose daughter died.

We`ll keep you updated. This is headed to court. And also, the mom also stated a funeral home wasn`t necessary, her daughter was going to rise from the dead. Unless she`s Lazarus, that`s not likely to happen.

Let`s stop and remember, Army Captain Torre Mallard, 27, Anniston, Alabama, killed, Iraq. From an army family and a West Point grad. Went on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. A scholar, a man of faith, loved computer science, football, boxing, baseball, dreamed of the FBI and teaching back at West Point. His family fulfilling his dream of sending care packages to soldiers in Iraq. Leaves behind parents Mose and Robin, brother Terrence, widow Benita and sons Torre Jr. and Joshua.

Torre Mallard, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Robin, Dave and Frankie. Now there`s a good looking bunch. And a special thank you to Matthew, Lynn and Monica Akin from Los Altos, California for these Winnie the Pooh t-shirts for the twins.

Matthew, thank you.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END