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Nancy Grace

D.C. Madam`s Suicide Notes Released

Aired May 05, 2008 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. As we go to air, cause of death determined? Florida police announce the so-called "D.C. madam" of a high-end prostitution ring whose clients included senators, a former deputy secretary of state under Bush, think tank military strategists, corporate CEOs, military officers, lobbyists, International Monetary Fund members, the World Bank members, dead by suicide?
While Palfrey threatening to come forward and name names of D.C. power brokers in order to get a lighter deal for herself in court. Was foul play involved in the death of the highly publicized "D.C. madam"? Now we learn not one but two women, both prostitutes in this very same investigation, are claimed to have committed suicide by hanging, both of the hookers sitting on a bombshell of evidence against countless D.C. insiders? Now, that`s some coincidence!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police in Florida are investigating the apparent suicide of Deborah Jeane Palfrey, otherwise known as the "D.C. madam." Palfrey was convicted last month of running a prostitution ring that catered to Washington`s political elite. She had been facing up to 55 years in prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suicide notes just released in the death of "D.C. madam" Deborah Palfrey. One note, addressed to her mother, said she didn`t want to come out of jail broke and lonely. Another, to her sister, said there was no way out. Meanwhile, rumors surface Palfrey could have been murdered to keep her from identifying more prominent clients of her escort service.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had a bunch of phone numbers. And then people had -- people deciphered those phone numbers. They went and they did reverse checks to see who owned those phone numbers. Did names come up? Hundreds, thousands of names came up.

DEBORAH JEANE PALFREY, "D.C. MADAM": I`m facing perhaps the remainder of my life in a federal penitentiary. This is not a misdemeanor crime, by any stretch of the imagination. There`s no $1,000 fine, year`s probation, slap on the wrist and wink from the judge as I exit the courtroom. I am looking at 55 years in a federal penitentiary. And at my age, that is virtually a life sentence.


GRACE: And tonight: The single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history, 464 children, 100 women rescued from an isolated Texas compound. Headlines tonight. We all knew about the alleged systematic marriages and childbirth forced on girls as young as 13. Tonight, finally released, the so-called "bishop`s papers." They are reams of handwritten documents found hidden away in a secret safe in a limestone temple deep within the FLDS compound, an investigative jackpot, records documenting up to 21 wives per husband, teenage girls married off, and the ages of many young wives left blank.

A full-scale investigation into alleged rampant physical sex abuse of little boys on that compound ongoing. And tonight, 41 children documented with broken bones. State`s exhibit number one, an underage FLDS girl who gives birth just days ago. She is in custody tonight. Three in five girls as young as 14 pregnant -- three in five! The Lone Star State heads to legal battle.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Private "bishop`s records" released. Documents revealing the ages of the women and children on the compound show that young wives ages 16 and 17 are married to much older men, some in their 40s and even their 60s. These records seized during the raid on the polygamist compound were used by CPS to show a pattern of abuse on the YFZ ranch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The allegation is this has been an area, a ranch, a compound, if you will, where underage girls have had sex with much older men. There are a lot of child brides. Do you see that going on here at all?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not. That is not the fact. No facts to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The list completed by the heads of households show the wives and children for each husband, many with their ages listed next to them, including one 67-year-old man who has 21 wives and 36 children.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, just released, handwritten notes discovered in the sudden death of the "D.C. madam," convicted of running a high-end prostitution ring catering to powerful Washington government officials, even people from as far away as NASA. Was it suicide or cold-blooded murder staged as suicide?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deborah Palfrey was convicted of running a high- end prostitution ring servicing some of Washington`s political elite, and she was headed to prison. But did she really commit suicide to avoid spending time behind bars, or was her death something much more sinister? Pretty simple theory that some are throwing around: Deborah Palfrey may have had the names of D.C.`s elites, politicians, maybe still had the power to take them down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials ruled today "D.C. madam" Deborah Palfrey`s death was suicide by hanging. Palfrey death last week sparked rumors someone killed her to keep her from identifying more prominent clients of her escort service. Prosecutors say she ran the service for more than 10 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spoke to her. A friend of mine, Jim Grady (ph), and I had lunch with her. We asked her and her mother to join us for lunch. We met at a sushi restaurant over on Connecticut Avenue. Her mother couldn`t come. She wasn`t feeling well. So Jeane came herself. And she was very upbeat. That was the last time I saw her.

PALFREY: My case is the only case of its kind ever, ever, we think in the United States, not just in the federal district of the District of Columbia but in the entire United States. Nobody in this country who has run a, quote, unquote, "benign" escort service has ever been charged with racketeering. I mean, racketeering is Tony Soprano territory.


GRACE: The people that knew her the best claim she would never have committed suicide.

Straight out to John Zarrella, CNN correspondent, joining us there in Miami, Florida. John, right off the bat, let me ask you this. Is it true that in the autopsy report, the toxicology results still have not come in?

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, that`s correct. And that could take several weeks before we get the toxicology. The preliminary and the actual autopsy report today coming out, as was mentioned, saying that, in fact, she -- this was a suicide case.

I know, you know, you mention that a lot of people are saying that, in fact, her closest friends said she never would have taken her own life. But yet in the two letters that she left, one to her mother, Blanche (ph), and one to her sister, Bobbie, she expresses the fact that there`s just no way that she can go back to prison -- Nancy.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, with the FBI, as well. No toxicology, but they can decide that this was a suicide?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know, that`s one of the things. They`ve looked at a number of different investigative avenues in this particular case. And you know, first thing I thought when I heard it, I said, Whoa, you know, is this really a suicide? But apparently, after reading the notes, after reading what the police are saying, it seems to me like it is a suicide and there`s nothing sinister. But we do have to wait for the toxicology to come back.

But apparently, they have enough evidence right now and from the crime scene, investigating it thoroughly, and (INAUDIBLE) into those avenues, like I said. They believe that it is, in fact, a suicide.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Lacie in Texas. Hi, Lacie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for watching and for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering, has anyone spoken with her mother? I mean, she found her daughter like that. Is she going to be doing an interview? Do we know how she`s feeling?

GRACE: Out to Neal Augenstein with WTOP. What do we know about the mother`s state of mind now? Is the mother on board with the finding of suicide?

NEAL AUGENSTEIN, WTOP: Well, the mother is devastated. That`s according to someone who`s talked with Blanche Palfrey since Deborah Jeane Palfrey committed suicide. She does believe that it was suicide. She is devastated. There`s no reason to believe, at least according to those who were the closest to the Palfreys, that it was anything other than suicide.

This was a woman who was committed to doing things her own way. Deborah Jeane Palfrey obviously was convinced of her innocence, and then when she was convicted and was facing several years behind bars at least, she decided to do things her own way and kill herself.

GRACE: I want to go back to John Zarrella, CNN correspondent, joining us there in Florida. John Zarrella, have we heard from the mother? Is she on board with the suicide theory?

ZARRELLA: Well, only, again, going back to what we have already heard, that, yes, in fact, she does believe, as well, that it`s suicide. But we have not heard directly from her mother yet at all.

GRACE: Also with us tonight is a special guest, Reverend Jim Harnage. He had a relationship with Palfrey, a long e-mail relationship. He believes the death may not be suicide. Reverend, why do you say that?

REV. JIM HARNAGE, HAD EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE WITH PALFREY: Back in July of 2007, I reached out to Miss Deborah in the situation that she was involved in. At the time, my family, my wife and I, were going through something, some life decisions concerning our daughter and -- with the entertainment industry. And we were engrossed in making decisions about whether to accept some things, reject some things. And we ultimately accepted our daughter and some things that we were dealing with.

And when I saw the issue on television, I felt pressed in my heart to give her a -- an e-mail and I reached out to her through e-mail, spoke to her about some things we were dealing with, and encouraged her as best I could to stand strong and do what she felt like that she need to do.

GRACE: Reverend Harnage, why do you believe this may not be suicide?

HARNAGE: Miss Nancy, she sent me back an e-mail. And this is what I came out of the chair (ph) about. The e-mail -- and I`ll just read it quickly here -- says, "Jim, what an absolutely lovely letter. It is greatly appreciated. Now, in my opinion, you are the archtypical (SIC) Christian. I believe there`s something in the Bible which speaks specifically to the identification of the truly righteous. For example, how most would be surprised to discover who these persons/souls really are in this world. Something is well about (ph) on if you ultimately inherit the kingdom of God as I recall. And I do believe these chosen few sure as heck aren`t the persons/entities you have spoken of here. Sincerely, Jeane Palfrey." And then went on to say that she was no longer accepting donations and was asking her attorney again to take down the Web site.

There are some things in that e-mail that contradict some things that were said on your show. One of your guests, Mr. Joe Episcopo, with all due respect, of course, and as a defense attorney, he had made the comment that he seemed to feel like her sole reason for committing suicide was that she didn`t believe in heaven, she didn`t believe in hell, and that she was just totally materialistic and her life was in everything material.

That is when I remembered my e-mail, came out of the chair and said, I`ve got to speak to this issue, at least on behalf of her mother. Can`t do anything for the dead, but I think that we`re as much responsible as -- in preserving the dignity of death as we are in preserving the sanctity of life. And so I felt like that I was obligated to speak out on -- on her behalf for her mother`s peace and hope.

GRACE: I`ve got in my hands here a copy of the actual writings that were found in her room. Interestingly, these writings were dated 4-25-08. The alleged suicide was May 1, many days later.

Out to the lines. We`re taking your calls live. To Patty in California. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, friend. Love you!

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, Patty?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- well, I just want to say my twins are 27, and they`re still my babies.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t tell them I told you that. But couldn`t a forensic handwriting analysis kind of bring that to the front, if she really wrote that and had the mindset, and all that?

GRACE: With me right now is a very special guest, David Leibman. He is a handwriting analysis expert. David, thank you for being with us. I`ve done many, many handwriting exemplars in court to prove, for instance, bank robbery notes, various, various writings. How do you do it? How sure can they be, David?

DAVID LEIBMAN, HANDWRITING ANALYSIS EXPERT: You can be very sure, depending on the number of exemplars that are examined in a case and the quality of the samples of handwriting that are looked at. The more writing, the more sure one can be.

GRACE: To Neal Augenstein with WTOP. Neal, what can you tell me about Brandy Britton, another hooker within this same high-end prostitution ring, who also knew a lot of names, could really spill the beans on Washington insiders all the way from NASA to deputy undersecretaries of state under Bush? She also hung herself in the space of about a year? Two women in the same prostitution ring that knew all this information, they both commit suicide by hanging? I believe she killed herself back in February of `07.

AUGENSTEIN: Well, Brandy Britton did work briefly for Deborah Jeane Palfrey. And actually, Palfrey didn`t realize it until after -- you know, after the case was well under way. She didn`t -- she didn`t recall Brandy Britton.

I hate to break it to those of you who think that Palfrey knew a lot of names. I communicated with her by e-mail. I communicated with her by phone. We spoke every day during the trial. Jeane Palfrey had no more names to give. If she had any names to give, don`t you think that she would have communicated that with her very able defense attorneys, and don`t you think they would have figured a way to get that into her trial so she wouldn`t be convicted in the first place? Deborah Jeane Palfrey had nothing left to give.

GRACE: Except, except testimony. If there had ever been cases against all of these johns, she would have been state`s witness number one. Agree or disagree, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: Well, yes, I think so, Nancy. But -- you know, but from what we`re hearing from Neal and everything else that we`ve heard from other people who were close to her, now, this looks like it was suicide. And the handwriting -- you know, looking at the handwriting, her -- people closest to her, her relatives, will know whether or not these notes are authentic. And from what I`m seeing right now from the exemplars you were showing, it does look like her handwriting.

And you know, and again, it was dated the 25th. But a lot of times people, as part of the suicide ritual, will go ahead and write a note in advance, and then they decide -- they get to get to the point where they`re hopeless and helpless, and that`s when they actually go ahead and commit the act.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Bob in North Carolina. Hi, Bob.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, my question is, I mean, could these two notes have been written under duress? I mean, if someone told me they`re going to murder my mother and my sister if I don`t sit down and write a heartfelt suicide letter, wouldn`t I write it? Isn`t that pretty simple to -- you know, to acquire these two letters?

GRACE: Bob, that theory is floating around. I want to go to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. What do you make of it, Patricia?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, hanging is an unusual means of suicide for women. Only about 20 percent of suicides that -- women committing it will hang themselves. So it`s really way beyond the odds that two of these women would do it. She was also talking about maybe going to Germany and buying a house there. She was thinking about the future, not suicide. Not clear, Nancy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spoke to her. A friend of mine, Jim Grady, and I had lunch with her. We asked her and her mother to join us for lunch. We met at a sushi restaurant over on Connecticut Avenue. Her mother couldn`t come. She wasn`t feeling well. So Jeane came herself. And she was very upbeat. That was the last time I saw her. And the next thing I knew, that this horrible thing had happened.



PALFREY: I`m facing perhaps the remainder of my life in a federal penitentiary. This is not a misdemeanor crime, by any stretch of the imagination. There`s no $1,000 fine, year`s probation, slap on the wrist and wink from the judge as I exit the courtroom. I am looking at 55 years in a federal penitentiary. And at my age, that is virtually a life sentence. Realistically, we estimate between 8 and 15 years. I am also looking at the complete forfeiture of my entire life`s savings and work.


GRACE: But the reality is, she was only going to do about four-and-a- half years behind prison walls. But now the official cause of death is suicide, when she was sitting on a powder keg of information about high- powered johns that used her prostitution ring?

To Dr. Joshua Perper, a renowned medical examiner joining us. Dr. Perper, I recall distinctly that you would not release a cause of death on Anna Nicole Smith until you had finally gotten back the toxicology reports because that played a very important role in your decision. How can they release a cause of death if they don`t have toxicology? What if her veins are coursing with some type of narcotic?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Because the case of Anna Nicole Smith was a totally different case. In this case, the fact that toxicology was not done is not significant because many people who commit suicide commit what I call "insurance suicide." So they may try to slash their wrists and take all kind of drugs in order to kill themself. Sometimes in the emergency room, they repair the wrist and the person dies of an overdose. So even if the toxicology is going to be proven positive for drugs, I think that the overwhelming reasonable decision in view of the circumstances is suicide.

GRACE: With us, Dr. Joshua Perper. We are taking your calls live.

Some good news before we come back with this story. A little San Diego boy who received a much-needed kidney transplant after featuring his story right here not only doing great but celebrating a big birthday, number 4. Xavier throws the first pitch for the San Diego Padres for Donate Life Day. What an arm! Happy birthday, Xavier.



PALFREY: I think all escort services are benign. These are all usually operated by women, to a large extent. There is no violence. There`s very little, if any, drug activity. There`s very little, if any, fraud. It`s basically just a bunch of benign women who wish to make a living. This is not racketeering, by any means. This is running a business.


GRACE: I wonder why the prosecutors never brought charges against any of the high-powered D.C. insiders that were her prostitution clients.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Gina in California. Hi, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank God you`re a wonderful mother.

GRACE: Thank you very much. That`s the best compliment I could get in a lifetime. Thank you. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why did she get 55 years? She didn`t really do anything...

GRACE: Hold on, Gina. Elizabeth, don`t let her go. Gina, she did not get 55 years. That was the max that she could have gotten. She got about four years, which makes it very difficult for me to believe she`d kill herself over four years in the pen, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I agree with you totally. And I wondered why all the hierarchy (ph) Johns didn`t get any time in jail.

GRACE: Not even a slap on the wrist, Gina! But you can count on this, Gina in California. If there had been a trial of any of the johns, she would have been a witness. But guess what? Two of the hookers are dead by suicide by hanging.

When we get back, the single biggest child protective bust in U.S. history. Tonight, finally released the so-called "bishop`s papers," reams of documents found hidden there on the FLDS compound.



UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The "Bishop`s Records" released, the secret documents were used by CPS in custody hearings to demonstrate a pattern of abuse on the polygamous compound. The papers listed names of men, their wives, their children and for many, the ages of each of them. Although some of the ages have been omitted, a cluster of young women 16 and 17 are listed as wives of men in their 40s and 50s.

The documents show families included dozens of wives and children, including one that lists 21 wives between the ages of 24 and 79, married to one 67-year-old man.



F. JESSOP: 16.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Am I going to get in trouble?

F. JESSOP: No, you are not going to get in trouble. Oh well, if you get caught by your dad you will. But we`ll just have to make sure you don`t get caught.


GRACE: The so-called "Bishop`s Paper" finally released. They are reams of documents found hidden in the secret safe in a limestone temple behind the compound walls. And they say -- we`ve got them right here in my hand -- and they seem to outline the families living behind that compound and how many wives each man had, some up to 21 wives. The ages of many of the young wives left blank, didn`t want to fill that in. We see the age 16 on many of them, the cutoff date under a Texas jurisdiction.

Is it the truth? Is it an investigative jackpot?

Out to Susan Roesgen joining us.

Susan, what do you make of the just-released "Bishop`s Paper"? I predict it`ll be state exhibit number two.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Boy, I think so, too, Nancy. I`ve got the same stack of papers that you do and going through this, I found not only the one guy, and boy did he live the life, Nancy, the 67-year-old guy who had 21 wives, one who is 43 years younger than he is, and some 36 children.

But also, Nancy, I found five cases in which the wives were actually listed on these papers as being only 16 years old. Under Texas law, they could be victims of statutory rape if their mothers as well as wives. So there`s a lot in here to go through.

GRACE: And interesting too, Michael Board, with WOAI Newsradio, Michael, those are the ones that they thought to write down and remember. This compound was founded by Warren Jeffs who`s now sitting behind penitentiary bars for underage sex, conspiracy to have underage sex and arranging these forced marriages. You think they tried to cover their tracks a little bit this time. Even so you`ve got ages left blank, 16- year-olds giving birth?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Well, Nancy, just think of it this way. Say you were a man who`s in his 50s or 60s and say you were married to a teen, that`s maybe 13, 14, or 15. Would you put that down on a piece of paper that was kept inside of the temple, the main headquarters for this group? I don`t know if I`d want that sort of damning evidence sitting around where someone could get, in the future, their hands on it like we see here.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines, Roberta in New York. Hi, Roberta.

ROBERTA, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, and I want to say God bless you and your family.

GRACE: Thank you.

ROBERTA: My question is, with all this information about the polygamists and the undocumented papers, why isn`t that the Welfare Department that gave out the food stamps or the assistance didn`t pick up on this? They`re children, they were 13 and 14 or whatever, was getting assistance from the state when they were having babies at such a young age.

GRACE: How did that happen, Michael Board? They, obviously, were getting welfare checks from the government and they -- it was a practice called bleeding the beast. They hated the U.S. government, but they had this scheme. All of these wives and none with a single husband in the home, so they all got welfare and food stamps.

BOARD: Well, that`s right and you have to remember, these couples, these families are not going down to the county courthouse and filling out the right paperwork and getting married. This is all done in their secret little temple in a strange little cult that they are all a part of.

They don`t have paperwork saying they are the wife of so and so, so when and if they do apply to the state, the state just sees them as a single, unwed mother with kids. Obviously, they`re going to get some sort of help from the state.

GRACE: Joining us tonight, Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessop. Carolyn, the former wife of YFZ leader, Merrill Jessop, and author of "Escape." Flora is a former polygamist and child bride. She is the executive director of child protection projects.

Ladies, thank you for being with us. First to you, Carolyn, we`re talking about the "Bishop`s Papers" that were just released. Do you have an idea who the bishop may be?

CAROLYN JESSOP, AUTHOR OF "ESCAPE", FORMER WIFE OF YFZ LEADER MERRILL JESSOP: I imagine it would be Merrill, because he`s been in charge of that compound for about around the last four years. So that would make him bishop. He only moved up to first counselor after Wendell was kicked out, the man with the 20 something wives.

GRACE: And to Flora Jessop, I noticed in these "Bishop Papers" that were found hidden away in a secret safe, a lot of the ages on the young girls are blank. What do you make of it, Flora?

F. JESSOP: Oh that`s normal that they leave stuff blank like that. One of the things I found very telling about the "Bishop`s Papers," though, was that there was none of Merrill`s family was listed, none of Warren`s family was listed, and yet there was a large majority of Warren`s wives around that compound and numerous other families that we`ve seen and known to be on that compound were not in those papers.

So that is not a complete list of the people that were on that compound as well.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) Carolyn, if a list including 21 wives for guy is not complete, I wonder how many more examples of that there may be.

Carolyn, how much can we rely on all of this evidence?

C. JESSOP: Well, I think it`s some good evidence, but I think the really incriminating evidence is missing, just like what Flora brought out. It`s the first thing I noticed is that Merrill`s family was not on that list. And there were other substantial families not on the list.

The other thing is the list is outdated. Some of the children that were listed on the list as living in Colorado City, they`re in state custody. So there`s more children down there that -- on that list just saying that they don`t live there.

GRACE: So basically, there is no record whatsoever to identify dates of birth on many of these women and these children. We don`t know who`s biological dad and mom belong to which kid.

Out to the lines, Shirley in Pennsylvania. Hi, Shirley.

SHIRLEY, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I don`t know you but -- personally, but I love you and I am so happy to see your children on.

My question is to you, with all this documentation and everything since there is no birth certificates, et cetera, how are they going to put the children -- how are they going to know which underage girl has -- is the one that was pregnant and the child belonged to? How do they knew who`s married to who? Because they lied with their names and everybody won`t give their last names.

GRACE: And on top of that, Shirley in Pennsylvania, we have now learned that when all the children were in the coliseum before they were sent out to foster care homes, they all had bracelets identifying them by group. And the ladies, the women with them would actually scrub off the names, change the bracelets from child to child and change their clothes to make it even more difficult for Child Protective Services to make any sense of it.

Out to Susan Roesgen, what`s the likelihood this is going to be sorted out?

ROESGEN: Well, Nancy, it will all depend on the DNA tests, the DNA testing on all 463 children who were in the coliseum and their mothers who were there, and some 90 or so men and women outside of the coliseum who also got tested. We`re going to have to really wait and see what the DNA results show as to who belongs to whom.

GRACE: Well, joining us right now is Shelly Greco. She is joining us from Dallas, Texas. She is a lawyer representing two of the FLDS children. And let me remind you, I know a lot of you don`t like lawyers, I understand that. But many of these lawyers are representing these children for free, trying to help them.

With me, Shelly Greco, Dallas, Texas, a veteran trial lawyer.

Shelly, how many FLDS children do you represent? I understand that it`s two. And where are they located?

SHELLY GRECO, ATTY. REPRESENTING TWO FLDS CHILDREN: Yes, Nancy, I represent two children. Both of them are currently in CPS custody outside of Houston.

GRACE: Shelly, have they been able to -- has the state been able to identify your kids` biological mom and dad yet?

GRECO: Yes, they should have, Nancy. Both of my mothers have birth certificates and driver`s licenses, both of them have birth certificates for their children. The 14-month-old little girl was born at Shannon Medical Center there outside of Eldorado. So there is evidence she should be able to identify with regard to the children I represent.




UNIDENTIFIED FLDS MEMBER: This is my mother`s room. We have three of her daughters sleeping here with her. And they have -- every one of them. We`ve got a 15-year-old girl, a 10-year-old girl and an 8-year-old girl. And she come home and sleep in the room. Every child is gone.

F. JESSOP: You never have to have sex with your dad again because that`s not right. And you`re going to be safe.


F. JESSOP: I`m not going to trick you, baby. Promise, I`m not going to trick you, I`m going to protect you. You remember how you told me that your dad hurt your mom, too, sometimes?



GRACE: Just released the so-called "Bishop`s Papers" found in a secret safe in a limestone temple there on the FLDS compound. It outlines family trees, I guess you could call it. One guy had quite a tree, up to 21 wives. That`s the tip of the iceberg.

Out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. Joining us tonight, two veteran trial lawyers out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, Joe Lawless, at the New York jurisdiction, Pamela Hayes.

To you, Pam Hayes, these "Bishop`s Papers," will they ever see the inside of a courtroom? Can they be admitted?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would hope so, Nancy. I mean they are really the smoking gun. They are the beginning of what can be the biggest case of child slavery and child sex slavery and I think they will do everything possible to make sure that they are admitted under a possible evidence rule.

GRACE: I think you`re right, Pam Hayes. What about it, Joe Lawless? How can they get into evidence? There are a lot of problems with them evidentiary wise. I`m not saying they`re not accurate, I`m saying you got to go through a lot of hoops, so you got to jump a lot of hurdles to get evidence like this into court. How can we do it?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, this whole case is going to be investigated quagmire. First of all, you`re going to have to show who wrote it. You`re going to have to show when it was written. You`re going to have to show who it reflects. So what I think they`re going to have to do is get a name they know, get a person they know, and start back tracking it that way.

Otherwise you`re going to have a difficult time authenticating it in terms of the rules of evidence. But this is going to take an awfully long time to untangle just because of the way people are obfuscating it and hiding things. You`re going to have to start with the kids, you`re going to have to start with the women who are willing to cooperate, and start eliminating that way before you can actually get to the real -- core of this. And it`s just going to be a massive case.

GRACE: So bottom line, you got to authenticate it and right now we can`t even get DOBs on a lot of these children.


GRACE: And I want to keep the lawyers up just for a moment, Liz.

To Joe Lawless, Pam Hayes, this weekend, I went to a little neighborhood function and right in the middle of trying to have a dip and a chip, some guy comes up to me, a grown man, and confronts me about the state of Texas taking away these young children. Well, I knew it was then time for me to leave. It was all over for me. I`ve been there 10 minutes.

But Pam Hayes, Joe Lawless -- first to you Pam Hayes, the reality is when you find allegations of sex abuse on children in a home or any abuse on a child, you take all the children out. They are out. They are out that night if CPS can get it together and get them out. That`s why this is happening in my mind, Pam Hayes.

HAYES: Nancy, you`re absolutely right. You know, those -- this thing is done in the best interest of children. We are looking at them as being victims. If they let them stay, it will continue. If you just take your time about it and leave them in that cauldron of horror, it`s going to be a problem. You have to do it and you have to do it immediately.

I don`t think anybody is going to show that the state of Texas did the wrong thing.

GRACE: I don`t think so either.

And Joe Lawless, I don`t think so the idea of a baby being taken away from its mother. Nobody likes that, but when there is alleged child abuse going on, at least the state of Texas, unlike some other states, has the backbone to do something.

Got to ask you a question, Joe Lawless. In these "Bishop`s Papers," which I`ve got right here with me just released, it implicates people from other ranches and other places. For instance, Arizona. If authorities under cover underage marriage that happened in those other states, is that PC, probable cause, to raid those compounds?

LAWLESS: It would depend upon when the papers are written. You know as well as I do the evidence can`t be stale. On the other hand, it certainly gives them reasonable suspicion to start investigating those compounds and to pursue it.

But Nancy, there`s a line from a movie, you need a license to drive a car, any schmuck can be a parent. If the state of Texas sees something going on with these children, they absolutely have the obligation to step in and do what they did.

GRACE: And you know what? You just brought up an interesting point.

I want to go to our former FLDSers. With us is Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop.

First of all to you, Flora, the children -- explain to me why a lot of times children don`t even know who their bio mo is? Why are the mom`s duties dispersed among so many women?

F. JESSOP: Well, one of the things that started to begin when Warren built the compound was he said that none of the children were supposed to love anyone more than they loved him. So he started taking the care of the children away from their mothers so that the bond wouldn`t be created between mothers and their children and spreading it out amongst the community.

But this isn`t something that just started happening. This is actually been happening for many, many years.

GRACE: Right.

F. JESSOP: I have seven sisters that were taken away from my mother, a (INAUDIBLE) given to my uncle to raise as his children.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Jack Downey is the president and CEO of the Children`s Shelter.

Jack, it`s great to talk to you tonight. Thank you for being with us.

Jack, what special accommodations are being made for the children that you`ve taken into foster care and how are they doing as of tonight?

JACK DOWNEY, PRES./CEO, THE CHILDREN`S SHELTER: Nancy, the children are doing wonderful. We have learned to talk together and the children are telling us their names. I took my dog Roscoe over Sunday and all the children introduced themselves to Roscoe so he would know who they were.

They had a great time with him. The children are dressing themselves in clothes of their choice and we started a school today and they`re going to school and having a wonderful time.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Pamela in California. Hi, Pamela? Pam?

Oh it`s Kim in Texas. Hi, Kim.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

KIM: My question is that, don`t you think that there is a possibility that any complicated, or maybe even somebody that just doesn`t worship Warren Jeffs could be buried out there? I mean maybe there were complications with pregnancies of two young girls?

GRACE: Interesting question, Kim.

Out to you, Michael Board, with WOAI. What about it?

BOARD: Yes, along these pieces of paper that we found in the "Bishop`s Record" actually had one child listed on there deceased. We don`t know what happened to that kid. Is it buried there on the compound? Was it taken somewhere else to be buried? It brings up a lot of interesting legal questions, because if you transport a kid someplace, man, that`s a sticky situation.

We want to know what happened to that. We know there is at least one. What happened to the rest?

GRACE: To Pamela in California. Hi, Pamela.

PAMELA, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT: I think you`d make a wonderful president.

GRACE: Well, unfortunately, I hate politics, but I do want to hear your question. What is it, dear?

PAMELA: First of all, I have a comment and two questions. My comment is this. First said on "LARRY KING," they had no TV or anything like that, but in the interview they have computers in every room.

GRACE: That`s correct.

PAMELA: My question is, I heard of the bed in the temple, but I also heard that there was a crematorium.

GRACE: Hold on just a minute. Let`s find out about that.

Susan Roesgen, what can you tell us? Was there a crematorium?

ROESGEN: Boy, if there was, Nancy, that`s the first I`ve heard. I haven`t heard of that. We do know that there was a doctor at the ranch, a licensed medical doctor, so perhaps he performed a lot of these baby deliveries and other things, and that`s why we don`t have the records outside of the ranch.

GRACE: We`ll be covering this as well as it develops.

But let`s stop now and remember Army Corporal James Gudridge, 20, Carthage, New York, killed, Iraq. Dreamed of enlisting since a little boy, had a smile that lit up a room, loved the outdoors, fishing, hunting, camping. Leaves behind parents James and Judy, three brothers, one serving in the Marines, and three sisters.

James Gudridge, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, happy birthday to Scottsdale, Arizona friend of the show, MJ Whitmore. Happy birthday, MJ. Happy birthday, friend.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.