Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
No Charges Against Mother Who Gave Birth to Meth Baby
Aired June 18, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: She races to the hospital to give birth to a bouncing baby girl, but ends up handcuffed and printed. That`s right, the 26-year-old mom arrested at the hospital. Why? Her newborn baby high on meth, methamphetamine coursing through the baby`s system. And tonight, it`s announced no charges. Meth mom walks free. We want answers!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother has been arrested after her newborn baby girl tests positive for meth, but the DA says she probably won`t face charges. Twenty-six-year-old Sandra Wetzel (ph) was taken into custody by authorities after giving birth to the newborn on Saturday at a Nebraska hospital. The DA`s office says Wetzel was detained due to multiple outstanding warrants against her for writing bad checks and failure to appear for genetic testing. Child protective services has taken custody of the newborn pending juvenile court proceedings, while Wetzel remains at Hall County jail preparing to face charges unrelated to the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Methamphetamine (INAUDIBLE) can cause a sudden rise in the blood pressure of the brain, and that can cause a stroke in an unborn child resulting in convulsions, muscle tone problems, tremors and sometimes even paralysis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight: A North Carolina woman comes home from out of town to discover her husband murdered in the family`s home, the victim`s family devastated. That is, until they discover this is her fifth husband and they all died under suspicious circumstances. That`s right, she`s got a string of dead husbands from Georgia to North Carolina, Florida, Ohio. Granny sure gets around. Bad luck or black widow?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 76-year-old woman has five dead husbands. Now police are investigating an alleged black widow, authorities charging 76- year-old Betty Newmar (ph) with solicitation of murder in the death of her fourth husband, Harold Gentry. Gentry mysteriously died after being shot. Authorities now believe Newmar may have hired a hit man. The death of Newmar`s four other known husbands also being investigated for possibly even more suspicious foul play.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: She races to the hospital to give birth to a bouncing baby girl but ends up in handcuffs, fingerprinted. Why? The newborn baby was high on meth. But tonight, it`s announced no charges. Meth mom walks free? We want answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Nebraska mother whose newborn tested positive for meth is unlikely to face child neglect charges, according to the district attorney. Sandra Wetzel gave birth Saturday to a newborn baby girl but was later arrested for other charges unrelated to the baby. According to records, Wetzel has four separate arrest warrants in three different counties. The DA`s office says Nebraska law does not allow them to charge a mother for child neglect for doing drugs while being pregnant. CPS has taken custody of the child, wile it appears Wetzel will be able to avoid any jail time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what a meth baby looks like -- premature, hooked on meth and suffering the pangs of withdrawal. They don`t want to eat or sleep, and the simplest things cause great pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would cry when she would have her diaper changed because it was so tender and sore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This baby`s bottom is burned. When her mother inhaled meth, so did she. Now every time the baby goes to the bathroom, the acids from the meth in her system burn her own skin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her buttocks actually is bleeding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Can you imagine a baby high on methamphetamine, one of the most dangerous, the most deadly drugs on the street right now? We`re going to be showing you photos of what happens to meth addicts as they take methamphetamines. Take a look at this! And this is what this baby has been subjected to?
Out to Eben Brown, investigative reporter. What`s the latest?
EBEN BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, the latest is this mother, Sandra Wetzel, is not going to be charged for anything related to her baby being addicted to meth because in the state of Nebraska, if you inhale any type of drugs while you`re pregnant, you`re not endangering a child who`s born.
GRACE: But what`s so interesting is in that same jurisdiction, there is a law for double homicide when you murder a mother that is pregnant. The unborn fetus counts as a homicide victim.
BROWN: In this case, though, the child -- or the unborn fetus wasn`t killed, but was just born addicted to a drug, an illegal drug. But the law doesn`t provide any type of criminal charges for this situation.
GRACE: So the baby`s got to be dead. And listen, the jurisdictions that have similar laws -- in no way does that impact a woman`s right in this country to have an abortion. You can still have an abortion, if that`s what you choose. The issue is, if you decide to go forward with having the baby, to have it born high on methamphetamines -- absolutely unacceptable!
We are taking your calls live. Out to Christina in Kentucky. Hi, Christina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If this isn`t considered child abuse, then what would it be considered?
GRACE: Let`s go to the expert. Joining us tonight is the county attorney there in Hall County, Mark Young. And listen, we may be all angry that there are not going to be charges against this woman. But the district attorney, as most of us call them, is bound by the law. He`s got to follow the law.
I`m going to go out to Mark Young, joining us from Grand Island Nebraska. Mr. Young, thank you for being with us.
MARK YOUNG, COUNTY ATTORNEY, HALL COUNTY, NE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me.
GRACE: I`ve got to tell you something, Mr. Young. And I know you know the case better than all of us put together. But when I found out the pain and suffering that little baby is going through, my blood is boiling. Try to explain to me why there are not charges -- not child endangerment, not child neglect, child abuse, not even possession of drugs -- against the mother? Nothing?
YOUNG: Nothing.
GRACE: Why?
YOUNG: Under Nebraska law -- well, under Nebraska law -- and this seems to be pretty consistent across the U.S. The only state I could find that appeared to be where you could charge a criminal charge was South Carolina. At least 10 other states have rejected attempts at charging the mom with child abuse for abusing the unborn fetus. In fact, I`d say about 15 years ago, a prosecutor in the county just south of Grand Island attempted to file charges and couldn`t even get it bound over for trial in a district court.
GRACE: Well, our research shows, Mr. Young, that there are 24 states that allow prosecution when moms use drugs or alcohol during their pregnancy. Now, that doesn`t necessarily mean that it is for child neglect or child abuse. It can be, for instance, possession of drugs, like when you find somebody and they`ve got a hit of crack on them. That is simple possession of cocaine. When a mother gives birth to a baby and the baby has illegal drugs in their system, that is de facto proof in several jurisdictions of possession of drugs. How about a drug possession charge in this case?
YOUNG: Well, under Nebraska law -- and I think we`re something of an isolated instance of this. But under Nebraska law, our supreme court has said that use of a drug is not the same thing as possessing a drug, and that using a drug isn`t a crime and can`t be equated with possessing the drug.
GRACE: So if you`ve got it coursing through your veins and you`ve ingested it, that`s not the same thing as possessing it. Interesting. And Mark Young, believe me, Mr. Young, I don`t want to shoot the messenger. I just don`t like the message that in your jurisdiction, Nebraska, this woman can be high on meth and her baby is suffering. Did you hear what the reporter said about what this child is suffering just to go to the bathroom, how it screams and cries?
YOUNG: Nancy, it`s, sadly enough, not a surprise to me. We have over the years dealt with a number of cases where moms have used drugs during their pregnancy, and in the juvenile court system, we`ve had to deal with the consequence of that. It`s one of the huge, oftentimes unseen and untalked about consequences of drug use in the U.S. We have children in the system who are badly disabled because of their moms` drug use. We have children who sometimes are really never able to be rehabilitated from their moms` choices made during the pregnancy.
GRACE: Well, an interesting came up in Wisconsin dealing with Deborah Zimmerman, who went into a bar and stated that she wanted to drink her baby to death and continued to drink, I believe it was white Russians, until she passed out. She was actually prosecuted. And as a result of that case, two separate laws were passed because of her actions. Not only that, in Arkansas, there is now Garrett`s (ph) law, which was passed in 2005. That law says that bodily fluids can be used against a mom when prosecuting her for possession or use of drugs.
Everybody, we are talking tonight about a Nebraska case, a brand-new baby girl, bouncing baby girl, high on methamphetamine. Look what meth does. It`s one of the most dangerous drugs on the street today. We are taking your calls live. And joining us tonight is the district attorney, who says his hands are tied, Nebraska doesn`t give him a law under which he can prosecute.
Out to the lines. Shiba in Illinois. Hi, Shiba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks for talking to me, Nancy. My question is, what is going to happen to these children when they`re 16, 17 years old? Will they have developed a gene by that time, like alcoholism? And Nebraska law, that should be shut down and (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Well, Shiba, all I can say is if that is the law, then the law is an ass. And believe me, it`s not the first time it`s been an ass, and it needs to be changed. And it can be changed.
Back out to the lines. Marcus in Florida. Hi, Marcus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, even though it`s unfortunate that the state of Nebraska is unable to press criminal charges, is it enough for, like, the child protective services to go into family court and have her parental rights terminated?
GRACE: Yes. We did a ton of research and have determined that there are multiple states that call this, use of drugs during pregnancy, child abuse. What about it, Mark Young? Any possibility with child endangerment when it comes to child protective services, a civil law?
YOUNG: Yes. We will be -- we have filed a petition on behalf of this little girl, and we`ll be proceeding through the juvenile court system to protect her rights and her health in the civil context. And we do that on all these cases when we get evidence of drug use during the pregnancy.
GRACE: So you`re doing everything you can under the current law.
YOUNG: Yes. We feel like it. The irony here is, is that if this had occurred even three days after birth, if we could figure out who exposed the child to meth at that point, we have successfully prosecuted those cases here in Hall County in the past.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Leigh Vinocur, emergency room physician joining us out of Washington, D.C. Dr. Vinocur, thank you for being with us.
DR. LEIGH VINOCUR, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: My pleasure.
GRACE: Explain to me what a dose of methamphetamine would do to a newborn baby girl.
VINOCUR: Well, it causes a lot of birth defects. There can be cleft palate. There can be heart defects, prematurity -- I believe this child was born premature -- and all the problems associated with prematurity. And the kids go into withdrawal. I mean, so when they`re first born, they have all the horrible symptoms of withdrawal that the addicts have. So it is serious, it`s true. But these people need help, too, so sometimes the criminal justice system -- they need more than that. They need to be in rehab, so...
GRACE: You know, I`m all for rehab. I`m all for helping them. But they voluntarily are doing this. And yes, I know it`s an addiction. But this child has had methamphetamine thrust on her against her will.
VINOCUR: Absolutely.
GRACE: And don`t get me wrong, Dr. Vinocur. I don`t want women prosecuted for having a glass of wine during pregnancy. That`s not where I`m headed. I in no way want to impact Roe v. Wade. No, not interesting. Don`t want to touch it.
VINOCUR: No, I agree.
GRACE: But what I don`t want is what this baby is suffering right now in an intensive care unit.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Tell you what , Nancy, this is -- methamphetamine is the scourge of the community. You know, it used to be just in rural areas where you would find meth, but now you find it in the inner city. And it goes across all socioeconomic backgrounds. It`s just -- it`s just a dangerous, dangerous drug. And I tell you what, this woman -- if this isn`t child endangerment, I don`t know what is.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, child advocate, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Joe Lawless, veteran trial lawyer and author out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction. Sue Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If this woman was in jail, it would be absolutely the best thing for her! That is the kindest way we could help her. She`s not going to be in jail. She`s going to get out of the current rap she`s currently in, and this baby has to suffer the consequences. We don`t even know the long-term health consequences that this baby is going to suffer. And we have no tools to stop late-term pregnant women from taking meth or other dangerous drugs.
GRACE: What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m going to agree with Susan. But here`s what you have to consider, Nancy. Had they left that baby with that mother for one day and had she breast fed that baby, then they could have prosecuted her because she would have passed that breast milk to the baby and the baby would have been -- continued to have been exposed to the drug.
GRACE: Renee, you`re supposed to be taking the side of the defense.
ROCKWELL: All I`m saying is, Nancy...
GRACE: You crazily talked common sense for just one moment.
(LAUGHTER)
ROCKWELL: There is a way, Nancy, to prosecute this woman. But Nancy, it`s nobody`s fault, but people need to pick up the phone and call their legislature.
GRACE: Joe Lawless, weigh in.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think Renee`s right. This is a tremendous opportunity to get the law changed. But the bottom line is, as far as Ms. Wetzel is concerned, she didn`t commit a crime. Right or wrong, the problem lies with the Nebraska legislature...
GRACE: Hey, change the law?
LAWLESS: ... not the prosecutor.
GRACE: Joe Lawless, you know what? I appreciate that sentiment and I agree. But I`m worried about this baby and this mother and her other two children at home. What`s going to become of them while we`re trying to get the legislature to get off their thumbs?
LAWLESS: Well, I think the county attorney is going to do the right thing. And they`re going to try to interfere -- or to take away her custody rights until they get a handle on this. It`s going to happen civilly. It`s just not going to happen criminally. She won`t see this kid for a long time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These children are being raised in homes that are absolutely filthy. There`s rotting food everywhere. There`s animal and human feces everywhere. It`s just deplorable conditions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Parents are walking away from their children. They walk away from their spouses. They walk away from their home. They walk away from their jobs. They walk away from their life as they knew it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what a meth baby looks like -- premature, hooked on meth and suffering the pangs of withdrawal. They don`t want to eat or sleep, and the simplest things cause great pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would cry when she would have her diaper changed because it was so tender and sore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This baby`s bottom is burned. When her mother inhaled meth, so did she. Now every time the baby goes to the bathroom, the acids from the meth in her system burn her own skin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her buttocks actually is bleeding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s what the little Nebraska baby is suffering because she was born high on methamphetamines, one of the most dangerous and addictive drugs on the street today. And tonight, we learn no charges whatsoever against the mother -- not possession of drugs, not child endangerment, not child neglect.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Nicole in California. Hi, Nicole.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, because of this baby being born, obviously, it brings light to the Nebraska people that there needs to be a law enforced and put out there for them to prosecute mothers who have children that are born on any kind of drug.
GRACE: I agree. Mark Young, what is the reality? You and I know about the case. You`ve probably seen, as have I, many, many cases similar to this before. But what will it take -- I mean, the legislature is made mostly of defense attorneys and insurance salesmen. How likely is a bunch of defense attorneys going to change the law, creating another criminal statute for their clients?
YOUNG: Well, I think we`re a little lucky in Nebraska because while there are some defense lawyers in the unicameral, there are primarily non- attorneys. And this is, I suspect, a subject that will be revisited during the next legislative session. Nebraska is a state that has, in general, worked hard to protect children and unborn children, and I think this will highlight that.
GRACE: And there is a way, Mark Young -- Mark Young, the elected district attorney in that jurisdiction -- to enact such a statute that does not impact a mother`s right to choose.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist. These people act like nothing`s happening, like there`s not a life inside of them.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s what`s so insidious about it, Nancy. It`s as though they`re brain dead, they had a lobotomy. All they can think about is when they`re going to have their next fix. That`s the problem with this particular addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t get anything done without it. I couldn`t get off the couch unless I had some meth. And so it quickly became -- I needed it for energy and I needed it for motivation. And it took me quite some time and quite a little effort to get off of it, more than one treatment, in fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see it over and over and over again, and I`m sick of it. I`m angry. I`m tired of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meth use is spiking across the country, and children are suffering.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s going to raise these children? Who`s going to care for these children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s the most addictive drug I have ever seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight: A baby girl born high on meth. Absolutely zero charges will be filed against the mother.
Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Jim Bevell, CEO of Treatment Solutions Networks. He`s an interventionist. Jim, what is an addiction to methamphetamine like?
JIM BEVELL, INTERVENTIONIST: Well, Nancy, an addiction to methamphetamine, while it does have some differences, it`s really no different than an addiction to any other drug. One of the points that I`d like to make here -- we`re back where we were in the `80s and the `90s with the crack babies. Now it`s methamphetamine. Same syndrome, different drug, you know? And we`ve been here before with fetal alcohol syndrome.
So I don`t think that the drug of choice at this point is as important as what`s driving this behavior, and one of your guests touched on that. They said that it seems like they`ve had a lobotomy. And in many ways, that`s exactly what`s happening with an addict. What happens with an addict is their impulse control in the frontal lobe is cut off.
GRACE: Everybody, when we come back: She`s got a string of dead husbands from Georgia, North Carolina, Florida, to Ohio. They all died under suspicious circumstances. Granny sure gets around. Bad luck or black widow?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 76-year-old woman is under arrest for solicitation of murder. Police saying she hired someone to shoot her husband while she was away for the weekend.
Now cops discover she has not one, not two, not three, not four, but at least five husbands who have died, husbands dying from an allegedly self-inflicted gunshot wound, a shooting and sepsis.
Now that 76-year-old Betty Neumar is charged in the 1986 death of husband number four, Harold Gentry. Investigators are looking at the other deaths seeking clues. Police even seizing the fifth husband`s ashes and testing them to see if he was poisoned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t think his death was suspicious at first. You know, then, when all this other stuff came up, it makes you start thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No one was ever charged with the crime, the case had grown cold, until the sheriff decided to reopen the investigation, trying to figure out who killed Thomas Gentry.
After 22 years, Al Gentry didn`t think anyone would be charged in connection with his brother`s death, Harold Gentry. He was shot to death in July of 1986 at their house just outside Norwood. Now Neumar is accused of hiring someone to kill him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Man, this granny sure gets around from Ohio to Florida to Georgia to North Carolina. She`s got a string of dead husbands. Why didn`t anybody ever notice?
Let`s go straight out to Jay Almond with the "Stanley-Press News." What happened, Jay?
JAY ALMOND, NEWS EDITOR, STANLEY-PRESS NEWS: Well, the information I have is based on an investigation that the Stanley County Sheriff`s Office is running and information there is that the D.A.`s office and the Stanley County sheriff have gathered evidence from witnesses saying that Betty Neumar solicited to commit murder to her husband, Harold.
Thomas Harold Gentry was shot to death in Norwood home near the back door inside the home. He was found by friends or family members -- I believe friendly members sent there by his employers. He didn`t report to work. They -- you know, could you go find him? They get out there.
And discover him there dead, and then the investigation there ensues, but did not lead to anything enough to press charges against anyone.
GRACE: Jay Almond is joining us from the "Stanley-Press News" in Ever Marlow, North Carolina.
Jay, what can you tell me about this woman? What is her background?
ALMOND: She`s a 76-year-old widow. I believe her name was Betty Sills or perhaps Phils -- I`ve not seen that in writing -- before she was married. And she`s been married four other times. She initially was inviting to family members, but then sort of became more of a wedge in the family and has gone from there, got colder and -- with previous family members.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is John K. Neumar, he is the son of John Neumar Senior. And he suspects Betty Neumar of murder of his father.
Now, in that particular case, the Neumar case, she has not been named a suspect as of this juncture.
Mr. Neumar, thank you for being with us.
JOHN K. NEUMAR, SON OF JOHN NEUMAR, SUSPECTS WOMAN IN HIS DAD`S DEATH: Thank you. I`m glad you have me tonight.
GRACE: Mr. Neumar, how long have you suspected her being guilty of murder?
NEUMAR: Well, you know, actually murder almost never crossed my mind until the Gentry case came up. In fact, we did not know she was married all this time. We just thought that she was married one time and she was a widow lady who married my father.
Well, it wasn`t long after my father married her that he started being sick and everything. And he was never sick a day in his life. And I was figured something was wrong because he put -- such a wedge became between our families that shouldn`t have existed. We were so close.
And the longer she was married to him, the less we had to do with him and the more time it seemed like he was sick but she wouldn`t let us know about it. In fact, when he did die, I read about it in the newspaper and didn`t even know he was dead.
And when I went to the funeral home she already had him cremated.
GRACE: Had him cremated?
NEUMAR: Correct.
GRACE: Mr. Neumar, what was the cause of death of your father?
NEUMAR: Well, it`s a complicated thing and I`m not very good with these technical terms and all. But from what the doctors say it was some type of stomach and bowel and, you know, intestine problem and everything, which I`ve been told later by some people that the symptoms that he had could be caused by arsenic poisoning.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner and forensic pathologist. Let`s just get down to the brass tacks, Dr. Oliver.
If all we have are ashes, and I don`t mean from a household fire, I mean from a cremation, those type of ashes, what, if anything, forensically can we determine?
DR. HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY M.E. FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good evening.
GRACE: Hi, Dr. Oliver.
OLIVER: Hi.
GRACE: What can you do with ashes, Dr. Oliver?
OLIVER: About the only thing you`re going to be able to detect at this time would be heavy metals such as arsenic or mercury or lead. Other avenues that you tend to follow, for instance, with sepsis and so forth, won`t exist anymore. Those clues will be gone. But heavy metals will persist even in ashes at this time.
GRACE: Even arsenic. Did I hear that correctly?
OLIVER: Yes, that`s correct.
GRACE: Now, arsenic, is that a heavy metal?
OLIVER: Yes, it is.
GRACE: Explain.
OLIVER: On a periodic chart, on a chemical chart, there are certain elements that are -- in a first certain classifications called heavy metals and arsenic is one of them. It`s used primarily these days as an insecticide to spray fruit trees and that sort of thing.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Eileen in North Carolina. Hi, Eileen.
EILEEN, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my calls.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
EILEEN: Hey, I wanted to know if there was any similarities in the cause of all these deaths and what about life insurance in all these.
GRACE: Oh, yes, there was life insurance in the Gentry case. She was the beneficiary. She sold the home. She sold all the possessions and the state of their marriage was to the juncture where he was living in an RV in the backyard and she was living in the home.
So she was the beneficiary of that.
The similarities, well put, Eileen in North Carolina, you`re thinking similar transactions. Three of them husbands died of gunshot wounds. One died of apparent sepsis or some type of stomach ailment and one, as of this juncture, we don`t know the cause of death.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Joe Lawless.
Joe Lawless, looks to me like this district attorney may have some similar transactions, in other words, bringing in other cases to prove the case in chief.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, it sounds to me, Nancy, like it`s pretty attenuated. They`re going to have to prove a causative link between those three before that ever gets in front of a jury.
But more importantly n the absence of any solid forensic evidence, they`re not going to have eyewitnesses, they`re not going to have fact witnesses. I don`t know if a court`s going to let it in. I sure as hell wouldn`t if I were the judge.
GRACE: To Jay Almond with the "Stanley-Press News," speaking of no witnesses, weren`t there witnesses that state she propositioned people to kill her husband?
ALMOND: That`s what the D.A.`s office has got a warrant that`s stating that there are witnesses who will testify that what they did witness was her attempting to solicit that murder.
GRACE: And what was the payoff? What was she going to give them? How much money?
ALMOND: I`m not sure of an exact sum of money. But I believe there was a vehicle, a car or truck involved as well.
GRACE: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Jay Almond, thank you for reminding me of that.
Renee Rockwell, she`s goings to pay them off with a car, a car?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, that is ridiculous. Now if she said that she was going to give somebody the $20,000 -- but you don`t kill somebody for $20,000 worth of life insurance. I just think that.
GRACE: Oh really? Because I prosecuted and won a case over $10. Now what were you just saying?
ROCKWELL: I`m just saying that if the motive was $20,000, that would not be.
GRACE: Really?
ROCKWELL: . enough money for her to kill somebody. She might have wanted to do get rid of him.
GRACE: But $10 was. $10 was.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, I think that the bigger problem she is going to have is that she`s going to be able to be charged with a criminal solicitation for the murder as opposed to being charged with the murder.
GRACE: Oh, I predict she`s going to be charged with solicitation, conspiracy to commit murder, felony murder and murder one. All for one and one for all. That`s the way the law reads.
We are taking your calls live.
Granny gets around. She leaves a wake of five dead husbands behind her. But right now we stop, as always, to salute our troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLISON SIEGE, SALUTING THE TROOPS: This is Allison Siege(ph), I want to salute my fiancee, especially Sean Rosner, who`s serving in Iraq with the 163rd Field Artillery Regiment.
I just want to tell him that I love him very much and I miss him so much, more and more every day. I hope he`s being safe and I hope he knows that I`m praying for him and waiting for his safe return.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators carrying away evidence but hoping to soon walk away with more, some answers.
North Carolina investigators say this 76-year-old grandmother got away with murder for 22 years. She`s been married five times. Her first husband`s death ruled suspicious. The next three, found shot to death.
They believe Betty Neumar murdered her fourth husband. Now Richmond County is investigating the death of her fifth.
John Neumar`s dad John was married to Betty 14 years. They`re seen here in an interview with News 12 in 1997. John died this past October. And at the time his son believed what he was told, it was by natural causes.
Betty`s past is why Richmond County got a search warrant for her house. They got John Neumar`s ashes. Investigators will use the ashes to test for arsenic or other poisons to see if there was foul play.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Five dead husbands. And people are just figuring out something is very wrong?
We are taking your calls. Out to Chris in Minnesota. Hi, Chris.
CHRIS, MINNESOTA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, dear?
CHRIS: I`m wondering, is five just the magic number? Is there no way that they`re keeping track of deaths and widows rather the.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Chris, I agree with you. I`m going to go back to John J. Neumar. This is the son of John Neumar Senior. He suspects Betty Neumar of the murder of his dad. She`s not a suspect in that case.
John, when you first met her, didn`t you tell me you believed at that time she was a widow, a one-time widow that married your father?
NEUMAR: Right. That was correct. We were told that her husband just passed away and my mother had passed away a couple years before that. And we -- you know, we just figured it was a widow and a widower getting married.
GRACE: How did she meet your father?
NEUMAR: A friend of his went up there to where she had a salon to get haircutting. My father, he went to go up there and get his haircut because I think his barber had retired. So he went up there to get his haircut and that`s where he met her.
GRACE: And how long after they met did they marry?
NEUMAR: You know I`m bad with time frame, but I`d say, I think within a year or something like that.
GRACE: Quick courtship.
NEUMAR: Right.
GRACE: Was there any insurance involved? Did she inherit -- was she the beneficiary of the house or anything at the time of his death?
NEUMAR: Well, as far as insurance policies, I did not know what he had. But I know he -- my mother had passed away, and he had inherited 60 something thousand dollars from her mother`s estate. He had a house worth over $100,000 that was paid for. He had (INAUDIBLE) so stock with (INAUDIBLE) that he had so, you know, he was worth a little bit of money.
GRACE: OK.
Joe Lawless, Renee Rockwell says $20,000 is not enough. How about $200,000? Is that starting to warm you up a little bit?
LAWLESS: That`s certainly a motive. But my question is if she killed her husband and had him cremated, why would she keep the ashes if there were something suspicious? Why not just scatter them? Get rid of them. There`s no evidence that.
GRACE: You know what, Joe?
LAWLESS: It`s not consistent.
GRACE: Let me say, Lawless, please. Joe.
LAWLESS: Nancy.
GRACE: When did a killer ever think like you and I think? When were they ever logical and rationale? If they were logical and rational they wouldn`t commit murder.
LAWLESS: What can I say? It`s inconsistent.
GRACE: Nothing.
LAWLESS: It`s inconsistent with guilt.
GRACE: Nothing.
LAWLESS: That was inconsistent with guilt, Nancy. You don`t have any evidence.
GRACE: OK.
LAWLESS: You don`t have any evidence.
GRACE: Other than the.
LAWLESS: All you have is speculation.
GRACE: You said that earlier. You said no evidence, no witnesses. Well, there are two witnesses in the Gentry case that says she offered, solicited -- one was a solicitee and one was a witness -- for them to kill her husband.
LAWLESS: How long ago was.
GRACE: Two witnesses.
LAWLESS: Where were they for 22 years? How long ago did that happen?
GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, Jay Almond, with the "Stanley-Press News," isn`t it true that they actually tried to approach the prosecutor, but nothing was done?
ALMOND: The witnesses may or may not have made some approaches. I understand that some of the family members voiced their suspicions early on. The thing that actually interested me, what you guys were talking about with saving something or having evidence.
If there is -- you know, if you hypothetically say that there is the guilt in all these cases, then -- wouldn`t that be kind of a serial killer thing? Wouldn`t be that possibly like a trophy?
GRACE: Jay Almond, you`re dead on.
Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, it is not uncommon, in fact, it is common with serial killers that they keep mementos of their victims. It could be theater tickets. It could be a piece of their clothing. It could be a driver`s license. It`s extremely common.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You hit right on it, Nancy, driver`s license with the BTK killer and some other pieces of clothing. Not uncommon at all.
But, Nancy, you know, in this particular case, the death in `52 and `54, they probably --going to be able to do nothing with those. But 1965, they may have to exhume that body.
And I would take a look at the autopsy report, Nancy. Did they do any kind of paraffin test on the hand of this alleged suicide victim? You know, because -- and who was the only person in the room at the time he committed suicide? This woman.
GRACE: And Caryn Stark, it is highly unlikely, if you look at it statistically that someone commits suicide with another person in the room.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I can`t remember somebody who`s committed suicide with another person in the room. I think people have alleged that that`s happened. But no, Nancy, that`s not what happens.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Ron in Indiana. Hi, Ron.
RON, INDIANA RESIDENT: Hi Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
RON: Yes, I had a question. Is the reason why she cremated her husband is to get rid of the evidence of a chemical trace?
GRACE: Susan Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That. And hey, Betty, I hear that Drew Peterson is available. You know birds of a feather? That`s absolutely what probably happened. She`s not smart enough to realize that arsenic stays on the ashes because it is a heavy metal and that might be the clue that solves the case.
GRACE: What`s amazing to me is she`s married to one guy 14 years before the death.
Out to David in Canada. Hi, David.
DAVID, CANADIAN RESIDENT: Hi. Nancy, I love your show. How can this woman explain for five deaths and she gets away with it if she`s so good at it? Or she -- how can she explain that these guys died?
GRACE: Well, I don`t think that under the law she`s required to say anything. She may never give an explanation. But what will happen in court, Mike Brooks?
BROOKS: I tell you what, Nancy, it`s going to be a very, very interesting case when it does finally go to court, especially in this case, the 1986 case. They`re going to go back and take look at `65 and then this 2007, she could be looking at possibly three deaths that she is directly involved with.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ever since the case grew cold many years ago, Gentry has asked several sheriffs to reopen the investigation. Sheriff Rick Burress said yes when he was elected last year and now has begun with results.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s always good to solve any homicide. It brings some kind of closure to the family.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Five dead husbands, and finally a prosecution.
Very quickly, back out to Jay Almond with the "Stanley-Press News." What happens now?
ALMOND: Well, Betty is being held in the Stanley County jail, I believe, under $500,000 bond. And it looks like she`s scheduled for court July 14th. That may be a continuance or it may be an appearance.
GRACE: Got you.
Out to the lines. Jada in Kentucky. Hi, Jada.
JADA, KENTUCKY RESIDENT: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
JADA: I have a question. Does she have any biological children of her own with any of these husbands?
GRACE: Good question.
JADA: And if so, have they ever been questioned about any odd behavior?
GRACE: To John Neumar, you seem to know as much as anyone about her background. Did she have children?
NEUMAR: Yes, she has a daughter Kelly with Mr. Gentry and then I did not know about this until I was talking to a news reporter from the Associated Press who said that she had a daughter and a son from another marriage, and supposedly the son is dead, too.
GRACE: Rutro(ph).
Everybody let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer First Class Luis Souffront, 25, Miami, Florida, killed, Iraq, worked along side the Navy SEALs, awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon and two Navy achievement medals. Loved the ocean and spending time with family.
Leaves behind grieving parents, a fiance and cousin Locena(ph).
Luis Souffront, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Georgia, a friend of the show, and top law student Matt.
Also tonight a special good night from five of the superstars here at CNN HEADLINES NEWS, Danya, Becky, Hugh, Shonda, Margarita.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
