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Nancy Grace

Missing Toddler`s Mother Out of Jail on Bail

Aired August 21, 2008 - 20:00   ET


PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for that beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for nine long weeks, last seen with her mother.
Bombshell tonight. Just hours ago, mom, Casey Anthony, walked free from jail after 37 days in isolation behind bars. A California bounty hunter and bail bondsman put up the 50 grand to free Casey Anthony. But now that she`s out of confinement, will mom, Casey, reveal new evidence to help in the search for 3-year-old Caylee? Casey Anthony now under 24-hour protection and strict bail conditions, including an ankle monitoring device.

Just moments before her release, a formal arraignment goes down without Casey Anthony or her attorney, a not guilty plea entered in writing on charges of child neglect and lying to investigators. Meantime, hair and fluid taken from Casey Anthony`s car trunk, plus other evidence, still under lock and key. Will more criminal charges be next? But tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee Anthony?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony has been released on bond. We saw Casey Anthony and her attorney, Jose Baez, walk straight out here from the Orange County jail through a throng of media.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, I told you guys, let her through!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They got in a waiting black SUV. We can tell you there was a little scuffle that ensued between Jose Baez and some of the media as Casey -- as he was walking Casey to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep going! Keep going!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At one point, the umbrella that was shielding them flew up into the air. Casey was unshielded. Apparently, a reporter or a cameraperson tried to get under that umbrella that he was trying to shield himself and Casey with, and that`s when he just lost it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey did not say a single word to the media that we could hear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney did the right thing. He is bound by his ethics to tell her, Keep your mouth shut and don`t talk to anybody except me.


LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, and just hours ago, mom, Casey Anthony, walked free from jail.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony sprung from jail today.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you tell us, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A complete circus outside the Orange County jail.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony was silent as she made her way out of the Orange County jail this morning a day after her bond was posted for $500,000. She was taken directly to her parents` house.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It was kind of like a deer in the headlights kind of, like. She doesn`t say anything. She went home. She hugged her dad, told him she loved him. She came around the van in the garage, hugged her mother. The mother says, Oh, my God, look at you. You know, they shed a tear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She will have on this proximity bracelet, which will keep track of where she is. She`ll have to submit to drug testing. She cannot consume any alcohol or drugs (INAUDIBLE) meeting with her case manager, and no suggestive clothing of any type. Also there is a fee that`s involved here. There`s $5 a day that she has to pay for supervision fees, which adds up to about $35 a week.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you tell us, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing right now! And you heard the attorney.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on! Back up! Let her -- back up. Come on! Give her a break!


LALAMA: Quite the drama today, and let`s get it all in here. Mark Williams, news director, WNDB Newstalk 1150. Can you believe it?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, I`ll tell you what, it was just an absolute media circus today, Pat. After 37 days of being incarcerated in the Orange County jail, Casey Anthony released at 10:28 this morning. And looking at the video that you`ve been showing and you will show, it looked like a WWE slapdown. Casey, accompanied by her attorney, Jose Baez, they walked out. And Kathi Belich from Channel 9, the ABC affiliate here in town and a CNN affiliate, asked the money question: Did you kill Caylee? And of course, silence.

And one of the things that we found out afterwards is the fact that Casey told her attorney, Jose Baez -- but nobody really heard it. It was the fact that, I`m innocent. I want to walk out of this jail with my head high. She got into a black SUV, a Dodge Durango, 30-minute drive to east Orange County. And there was kind of a -- something ensued over there. But before that, a journalist tried to get under their umbrella and Padilla had to yank him out -- not Padilla, Baez had to yank him out because this guy just invaded their space.

Unbelievable. I`ve never seen people like this work, and I`ve been a journalist for 30 years.

LALAMA: Yes. Well, I`m with you on that. And official Nancy Grace producer, you were part of this. You know, did she actually utter the words, I`m innocent? And did she actually say, I want to hold my head up high? I`m just a little bit dubious. What do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, these aren`t words that any of us in the media heard. Apparently, she said these words to Jose Baez, her attorney, while they were still inside the jail, on their way out. He said that they hesitated inside and then they proceeded out. However, I did get some video footage of that. I did not notice any type of hesitation, but I guess you can decide for yourself.

LALAMA: All right. Well, let`s get right to the matter here with Leonard Padilla. You know him well. And I don`t think you`re wearing your cowboy hat tonight. Welcome to the show. Did you just have a meeting with family?

LEONARD: Yes, yes, yes.

LALAMA: All right, well, there`s not a lot -- I`m sure you`re...

LEONARD: And as far as with my hat, it got soaked. I did some interviews outside today in that rain, and it got soaked. So I`m without my hat.

LALAMA: Well, this is a bigger storm than Fay, I think, Leonard. So what happened in that meeting with the family? What it was, 7:00 o`clock tonight did you meet with them?

LEONARD: Yes, just very, very briefly, outlining some security situations that Rob wanted to discuss. And then we hurried on over here.

LALAMA: Well, you know what? We`re going to actually introduce Rob, Rob Dick. And seen you around the last few days. You are a licensed private investigator. You`re providing security for Casey. I know you work with Leonard. Welcome to the show. Give us an idea of what life is going to be like in that house with Casey Anthony.

ROBERT DICK, PROVIDING SECURITY FOR ANTHONY FAMILY: Well, the main focus is just keeping the house and the family safe. There`s just been too many credible threats against the family, Casey, as well as us. And we just don`t want anything to happen to anybody right now.

LALAMA: Are you going to be armed?

DICK: Yes.

LALAMA: And that`s allowed, per the agreement of her confinement at home, so to speak? You`re allowed to have a gun?

DICK: Well, outside the confinement area.

LALAMA: OK. I know her father is a former police officer. Does he have a gun? Is he allowed to have it in the house?

DICK: Well, per the rules of confinement, there can`t be any firearms directly inside the house.

LALAMA: OK. All right. You know what I want to ask? To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." You know, if they`re talking about threats and the safety of Casey, and you know, the chaos that`s wreaked upon the family, wouldn`t it have been a lot better to find a quiet safe house that perhaps they could have secretly whisked her off to, instead of putting her in the middle of this big, dramatic scene?

JOHN LUCICH, AUTHOR, "CYBER LIES": Absolutely. I agree with you, you know, but security starts right when that person walked out the door, and that was a pathetic, pathetic display of security. When that point man separated from Baez -- I`ll tell you, Baez ought to be one aggravated guy tonight, and I`d find a new security team because they just let that -- that whole thing fall apart, came right in to Casey, asked her a whole bunch of questions. That should never have happened right there.

But I agree with you. They need to bring this person someplace where`s it not always going to be flooded by media. But on the other side, the media can actually help by surrounding the house. It`s going to be ensured that there are more people watching this house, that Casey`s not going to slip out.

LALAMA: Leonard, did your team blow it today on the security?

LEONARD: No, no. Absolutely not. The point man was -- the two men leading down to the van were Jose, the attorney`s, people. They said, You guys take over at the door of the van. Until we get there, we`ve got our own people. They were not our people. We were stationed at the van. That`s where we were to take over, not prior to that.

LALAMA: Robert...

LEONARD: And so...

LALAMA: Go ahead -- well, let me ask Robert this. Robert, do you feel that you should have been involved in that scene from the jail to the car?

DICK: Yes, I do. And I had no idea they were actually coming out the door. That was not how it was supposed to go. But apparently, upon release, they were basically released and just kind of pushed out the door. Nobody knew that. And like I said, they were in -- get into the car, and then we were going to go from there.

LALAMA: Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney, is this the way for it to be done? Did Baez do it the right way today?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think so. I think it should have been handled and maybe with Orange County sheriff`s office. And they should have planned something a little bit better, so that they would have gone out of door that maybe all of the media wasn`t at.

And it is -- it is an absolute crazy circus, and he and everybody else put this girl at risk. She had no idea what was coming at her. I mean, she knew that this case was getting media attention, but she had no idea what was coming.

LALAMA: Richard...

SUSKAUER: And obviously, she was a deer in the headlights.

LALAMA: Richard Herman, also a defense attorney, you know, I`m thinking, Gee whiz, this is supposed to be the environment that shakes the truth loose? Forgive me for being a little skeptical. What do you think?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, Pat, law enforcement knew the crowds were outside. They saw them gathering out there hours before they let her go. Michelle is absolutely right. They should have taken her out a back door, out of a side door...

LALAMA: But that`s not the sheriff`s job. That`s up to -- I know -- I mean, I know California`s a different place. But I know that every time there`s a high-profile case and there`s all the media, what the defense attorney does is calls the sheriff and says, Help me find a way to make this less public. And I don`t think Mr. Baez bothered with that.

HERMAN: It wasn`t Baez`s responsibility.

LALAMA: It`s not?

HERMAN: They saw what was going on there. They should have made arrangements. They should never have let her walk into that crowd. They put her life in danger by doing that today.

LALAMA: Really? That`s very interesting.


LALAMA: Mark Williams, what are some of the terms under which she must abide?

WILLIAMS: Well, there`s a couple of terms, Pat. And the first thing is there`s a 10-page document that she had to sign. This afternoon, she got a visit from a case manager. But in that document, it says you cannot have weapons, you cannot drink alcohol. You can hold a job. You can go certain places, like to a job or to a hospital or to a dentist or whatever, but you`ve got to tell your case manager ahead of time. No suggestive clothing. You could be up for a urine analysis in a heartbeat. And if you abscond or break any of the rules in this 10-page document, you could be back in the Orange County jail in a heartbeat.

LALAMA: Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer, I understand she can go to church and she can look for a job. Any likelihood?

LANCE: I was saying that you guys should roll on it but...

LALAMA: OK. I don`t know what that was, but let`s -- let`s move on to a caller. How about Alice in Kentucky. Hello, Alice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Pat. Good evening.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not heard anything about whether they have, like, personal vacation property or even a storage unit somewhere.

LALAMA: A storage unit. OK, Natisha, are you with us?


LALAMA: OK, does the family have vacation property or a storage unit, that you know of?

LANCE: I`m having a hard time hearing you, Pat.

LALAMA: You poor girl. Look at that weather. All right, I`ll give you a break here. Mark Williams, have you heard anything about vacation property or storage?

WILLIAMS: I have not heard anything about vacation property or storage units or anything of that nature. That is a great question, and I think police have probably looked at that, but they have not released that information as of yet, Pat.

LALAMA: It sure is. Leonard Padilla, give us -- you know, there`s all this stuff going back and forth about whether she`s on GPS or whether it`s just an ankle -- would you settle this matter for us? What exactly is she wearing?

LEONARD: She`s wearing a bracelet that if she moves 150 feet away from the telephone, it`ll -- it`ll break the connection. Law enforcement will probably be there in three minutes. There`s no GPS. So she has to stay confined.

And I like the fact that there`s a ton of media out there because, let me tell you, there`s not going to be crawling out a window or any of that stuff. And as far as our security, they`ve got the security knowing that there`s a ton of media out there and everybody`s got a camera. I like that.

LALAMA: Well, I don`t know if the family`s happy about that because...

LEONARD: I can`t help it. They`re better being safe and unhappy than happy and unsafe.

LALAMA: Well, I heard that the mother, Cynthia, threatened to turn the hose on the reporters today. I can`t confirm it, I`ve just heard it.

LEONARD: Look, you didn`t know my mother. Let me tell you.


LALAMA: I know my mother, though.

LEONARD: Cindy`s a pussycat compared to my mom.

LALAMA: Well, I hope it works out in your favor.

LEONARD: It will. It`ll work out. Everything`s going along fine. And here -- let`s not -- don`t criticize Baez and don`t criticize the sheriff`s people at the jail.

LALAMA: I can`t help it because I`ve got believe, if you`re really concerned about finding Caylee and helping this woman find a nice, sensitive calm environment, this is not the way to do it.

But Robert Dick, let me ask you this. One of the things I read I found interesting was, if for some reason she`s able to break free of this monitoring device, you don`t get to just go get her. There has to be a warrant issued.

DICK: Wrong.

LALAMA: Is that true?

DICK: No. No.

LALAMA: It`s not true?

DICK: She can be surrendered on the terms and conditions of the bail bond.

LALAMA: All right, so let me ask you this. If she`s able to get by or get out of this, you personally, can you go get her, or does somebody have to call the cops? How does that work?

DICK: Well, she will be taken into custody by someone that can take her into custody, licensed by the state of Florida.

LALAMA: All right. But that...

DICK: We have that in place.

LALAMA: So that would not be you, then.

DICK: No, that`s part of my team. We have that in place.

LALAMA: OK. Interesting. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author, "Deal Breakers." Boy I don`t know. It seems to me that she`s going to a crazy place. I`m not accusing the family of being crazy, I`m just saying that the environment is so dramatic and so stressful and so chaotic, how can this possibly help in finding Caylee or surrendering the truth somewhere?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I don`t think that it`s going to surrender the truth. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that pathological lying, where there`s no real, true long-term incentive -- and there is a short-term incentive to get herself off the hook. But in the long run, there`s no incentive to lie like this. It`s really associated with anti-social personality disorder, the features of which are recklessness, failure to plan ahead, irritability, aggression, social irresponsibility, like failure to get a job or maintain financial obligations, and also reckless disregard for the safety of others.

This is a profound disorder of attachment. People with anti-social personality do not attach or bond to others, to their children, to society, to their family. So if there`s no capacity to bond, how is spending time in the bosom of her family going to motivate her to tell the truth? It`s essentially -- the whole theory is wrong. If she`s there just because she wants to be with her family, they want to be with her and have a safe place, that`s fine. And she has her constitutional rights. But it`s not going to motivate her to tell the truth.

LALAMA: Richard Herman, do you think that this is going to help her in any way?

HERMAN: Nancy -- Pat, this is not -- the purpose of letting her out is not so she can be in a safe, comfortable environment and come clean on where the child is.

LALAMA: But that`s what everybody says it`s all about...

HERMAN: Well, no...

LALAMA: ... getting her out, because in this environment, she`ll be more inclined to tell the truth after a manicure.

HERMAN: She`s charged with a third degree felony and two misdemeanors. It would have been a $15,000 bond in any other case in the state of Florida. Half a million dollars, ankle bracelet -- it`s absolutely ridiculous! She`s not going to talk to anybody!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Law enforcement authorities are the investigative agency, and they`re doing everything in their power to find that little girl. And I would just hope that no one would interfere with that law enforcement investigation.




LEONARD: A month in jail is like two years on an island. It`s horrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So when she gets out, what happens?

LEONARD: She goes home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she eats hamburgers and French fries, she loosens up?

LEONARD: Takes a hot shower, does her hair, paints her nails, starts to feel like a human again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is absolutely nothing that suggests that giving somebody a hamburger and a hot shower can make them tell the truth, especially when they have such a long history of not telling the truth.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. If you haven`t heard it, I can`t imagine that you haven`t, Casey Anthony free now, at home with her family.

Leonard Padilla, if she were to, let`s just say sitting at the dinner table one night, say, You know, Leonard, yes, I did it and I can take you to where -- you know, some evidence, what would you have to do at that point?

LEONARD: I`d make a call to her attorney. The second call would be to the sheriff`s office, and we`d go to the evidence.

LALAMA: It`s not privileged information if it`s to you, correct?

LEONARD: To me, it`s not privileged. If it`s to her mother, it`s not privileged. It`s not even privileged if it goes to her attorney and I`m present.

LALAMA: Gosh. Very interesting. Robert...

LEONARD: Your husband`s an attorney. He can tell you that.

LALAMA: He`s not my husband. But anyway, Robert...

LEONARD: Well, you`re...

LALAMA: Robert dick, who`s paying you? You got to eat. You`re not doing this out of the kindness of your heart, are you?

DICK: We are. We`ve all volunteered our time to make this a complete secure setting.

LALAMA: So you are doing this because you are dedicated to the cause.

DICK: Yes. I mean, we think that it`s a bad situation. It needs to be resolved. It needs to be ended as soon as possible and as safely as possible.

LALAMA: We`ve got so many viewers eager to ask questions, so let me try to get to some of them. Sandra in Texas. Hello, Sandra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. Thank you for taking my call.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I wanted to say that I do believe that there`s some premeditation involved because of the fact that Caylee just happened to have disappeared the moment the grandparents left town. She allegedly posed as Zenaida Gonzalez. There`s your cover-up. And you know,motive could be when her friends first visited in jail, she had made the remarks that that`s all her parents cared about, was finding Caylee, indicating that there might be some jealousy involved.

LALAMA: Very interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I -- I firmly believe prosecutors could go forward with that, but I know they don`t want to risk double jeopardy right now. Now that she`s out, if she doesn`t give any information leading them to the whereabouts of this precious little girl, will prosecutors go ahead and charge her with murder? And how long will they wait until they do so?

LALAMA: Wow. Well, that was a complex question. John Lucich, I`m going to let you take that one.

LUCICH: Well, that`s a lot to answer about. Look, they`re going to take it one step at a time. They are not going to go forward with a murder charge until they know they have this locked up. That would be the worst thing that they could do. They`re going to move forward with the criminal side of this, what they have her charged with. I think with all the things that are going on with this case and with all the things that she`s been involved in and all the lies, she`s going to get some jail time on here, and that`s going to confine her again and give them the time that they need to complete this investigation and put her behind bars, if she`s done an additional crime, if they could show that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A proximity monitor. It lets us know when she`s in the home or not. The final part of the release process, she`s given all the information on home confinement, show her how to hook the receiver. And also, the ankle bracelet is attached to her ankle.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... everything you`re telling them is a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: If I knew where Caylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Padilla thinks she needs a friend. He`s convinced he can get the 22-year-old to tell him where she left little Caylee.

LEONARD: After you`ve been in here for 30 days, somebody comes and gets you out, you`re going to say, That`s my friend.



CASEY ANTHONY: There`s nothing to find out. There`s absolutely nothing to find out. That`s even what I told the detectives.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. I want to ask our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, if there was anything that was done in the home -- and I`m talking criminal, we don`t know for sure but -- or at all -- isn`t it a little precarious that she`s back in that house and would know where there would be any potential evidence -- again, if she`s involved, and but we don`t know that?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Yes. That`s exactly what I was thinking. There are only two locations that law enforcement have been looking at very closely, the Anthony vehicle and the home. And you know, we of course would like to think that we left no stone unturned, and that home was turned inside out to find any potential evidence. But now she`s there, and you know, it`s quite possible if something did happen, she knows where it might be, she could destroy it or get rid of it, something of that sort. It`s a concern for law enforcement.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is our goal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nothing to indicate that she`s not alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not the arrest or pursuit in the arrest or the prosecution cases.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: They`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do?

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF CAYLEE: I told everyone where I used to take her. What can I say? You believe your child. You put faith in everything.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You still believe she`s alive?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE: Oh, absolutely. I think that we`re getting closer and closer to finding her.

G. ANTHONY: We`re not going to give up until the time that she`s home with us.

CINDY: She could in our neighborhood. She could in another country. She could be two miles away. She could be, you know, in another state. No one knows.

CASEY: You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.


PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace.

In case you missed it, Casey Anthony is at home, hooked up to an electronic monitoring device, and being protected by Leonard Padilla and Robert Dick. You know who they are by now.

Now let me ask you, John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," you know, the state or I should say the authorities put out a statement today saying, you know, it doesn`t matter to us whether she`s at home or in jail, but I`ve got believe that at home is not to their advantage -- to any prosecutorial advantage.

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": I don`t believe it`s to their advantage at all. I think that the pressure would have continued to build.

You know, it is an exercise into futility to believe for one second that this woman is going to talk to these guys at all, because first of all, the lawyer said he can`t. And let`s just say at the dinner table, no one answer a question, and she says, here`s what I did. I didn`t mean it to happen, but this is where Casey is. OK?

That can be used against her. And if all of a sudden, God forbid, and I hope this little girl`s alive from the bottom of my heart, but let`s say this girl perished and they find this -- the body based on what Casey said, that could be used against her.

That attorney is not going to let that happen. And she`s better off in jail for security purposes and for being able to solve this quickly.

LALAMA: Nancy Grace producer Natisha Lance, are you able to hear me now?


LALAMA: OK, here`s my question. We haven`t mentioned that there was an arraignment today. She didn`t have to be there but it just solidified her not-guilty plea in the matters at hand.

Could you please repeat for us what those charges are that she faces?

LANCE: She faces a felony charge -- a child neglect -- and she also faces a charge of making false statements to police officers.


LANCE: Now at the arraignment, they did tell us that her pretrial will be on November 5th and her trial date will be November 17th.

LALAMA: All right. Now I have a question for Michelle -- Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney.

There are some who imply that that was a mistake on the part of the state to do these charges now that now she`s lawyered up, she`s shut up, and that they`re not going to get anything out of her because of these charges.

Do you agree with that?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- think I do agree with that except they -- if they wanted to hold her, they -- the whole point was that they were trying to put pressure on her. And they thought, you know, we`re not -- they don`t have anymore to charge her with and they thought that she would cooperate and give information.

But they have enough to charge her with just a third degree felony and a misdemeanor, so that`s what they`re going with and I think -- I mean, I agree, I think it`s a very bad thing for the state that she`s out because there`s just no way she`s going to talk.

LALAMA: Richard Herman, would you be -- if you were her attorney, sitting around, going, oh, this is a good deal, boy, because she`s not talking and I`ve got -- I`m right next to her and now they`re really going to have to prove something.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, Pat, I`d stand up in court and say I`m ready for trial right now. That`s right. I`m ready for trial. I believe there`s no DNA evidence that`s dispositive or they would have charged her with murder.

In the state of Florida, in order to get a conviction for child neglect, they must prove that the mother intentionally neglected the physical or mental health of the child and they cannot prove that without the child or an eyewitness, which they don`t have.

It`s proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It`s all speculation without that. I`m telling you she`s going to walk right now if they don`t charge her with something else. Those misdemeanors are not going to keep her in prison.

LALAMA: Let`s hear from the viewers. Jerry in Florida.

JERRY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hey, thank you for taking my call.


JERRY: I have a comment and a question.


JERRY: The comment is, there seems to be more concern about Casey than there is Caylee.

LALAMA: Good point.

JERRY: My question is, why doesn`t the mother and the father post her bail? Now if the father`s retired, the mother works and they have a very nice home. She has a brother. I`m sure $50,000 for your child is nothing.


JERRY: And I`m very curious why Padilla, all of a sudden, is there. Does $250,000 reward posted.

LALAMA: He claims -- he claims he`s not interested in that money and we`ll get to him on that other matter, but Bethany, you know, let`s analyze ourselves on this.

Does it seem like, you know, the whole media thing and Casey, Casey, Casey, that we are forgetting about Caylee, and if show, what is the psychology of us as a society?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think that the psychology is that, although we know that most children under the age of 5 who are the victims of homicide, are murdered by the mother or the father, we have a hard time believing that a parent could do such a heinous thing. We just can`t believe it.

I think the concern is for little Caylee. But we know that, in order to get to the child, we have to go through the mother, in part. I mean, of course, there are all kinds of investigative techniques that can help us to go around Casey but she is a key in this case.

And one of your callers talked about premeditation and I want to make the point that a lot of investigative techniques have already been used. They`re not waiting for her to be at home with her parents in order for her to tell the truth. They`re going to look at the credit cards that were allegedly stolen.

Did she buy club wear with the credit cards?

LALAMA: Yes. Interesting.

MARSHALL: Or did she buy sippy cups? Who provided the primary care for the child in the home? When the child cried, who comforted her? Was she gearing up for an idealized life outside of the home? Were -- who cooked the meals for this child?

There`s all kinds of things that can be gleaned without Casey telling the truth.

LALAMA: Very interesting.

And Leonard Padilla, just to answer the gentleman`s second -- or his question, you know, the families must have some money to put up bond for their child. I think they didn`t have the money, isn`t that true?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, BAILED CASEY OUT OF JAIL: No, no. My understanding from the local bail agents that they -- they contacted many bail agents. But you have to understand that in Florida the average bond is about $8,000.

So when they looked at a $500,000, which to us in California is not a biggie, to them it was just out of reach and the surety companies that are headquartered here in Florida, they don`t want to take a risk like that. Unless they`ve got, like, probably double the surety -- $1 million in equity and $50,000 solid money for the premium.

The folks didn`t -- according to them and according to the bail agents that I talked to locally, they didn`t have it.


PADILLA: And they couldn`t put it together and they couldn`t get permission for the surety.

But let me go back to the car. OK? The car was sitting in a parking lot. A tow service came by and towed it.

Normally when a tow service comes by and hooks up a car to tow to the storage yard, they oftentimes open the door so they can tie the steering wheel down. They also are in close proximity to the rear end of the car and the front end of the car depending on which way they tow.

They take it to the yard. They inventory the items in the car and often time when the owner comes to pick it up, they drive it to the front gate. They don`t let the owner go over there stumbling around in a gravel yard.

LALAMA: So what`s your point, Leonard?

PADILLA: Hey, the point is, where`s the statements about what the people at the tow yard said about odors and things of that nature?

LALAMA: Well, what you`re saying no one`s talking about that? Well, I don`t get your point.

PADILLA: Well, have the cops talked to the people at storage yard? Did you smell something?

LALAMA: I`m sure, I`m sure.

PADILLA: Were you in the car?

LALAMA: I`m sure they have, Leonard.

PADILLA: You`re sure of a lot of things.

LALAMA: Yes, I am. And let me ask you.

PADILLA: Yes, how sure you are?

LALAMA: Yes, I`m pretty sure they did.


LALAMA: Robert Dick, let me ask you something. Are going to be in the house? Where are you going to be in the course of all of this?


LALAMA: And let me ask you another question, are you also actively involved in finding Caylee? Is that part of your deal with this family? And what are you doing?

DICK: Well, we`d be glad to but some things we can`t get in the middle of any of the investigation part. We have to let law enforcement do their job.

Right now our main concern is the safety and let the tips start flowing.

LALAMA: But you know what, Leonard, you told me a few days ago you believed there are things she`s not -- that she -- things she knows that she hasn`t revealed.

Do you still believe that?

PADILLA: Absolutely.

LALAMA: And do you plan to try to get that out of her, or is the lawyer told you not to?

PADILLA: The lawyer don`t want us talking, questioning her. Hey, leave it alone. Let`s wait a week and see what happens.

Here`s the deal, somebody said, who`s important in this thing?

LALAMA: Caylee.

PADILLA: The little girl. The little girl is important. OK? The reward is $225,000. For the next week, I am not actively going to look for who`s got the little girl. Put her at a drugstore, one of the 24-hour drugstores, at a fire station, somewhere. Go away for two days. Call back and get your reward.


PADILLA: She got out. She hugged her dad. Told him she loved him. She came around the van in the garage, hug her mother. They shed a tear. And I suggested, hey, get her down the hallway, give her a shower. She said, yes, I could use one.





UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey, did you kill Caylee?

CINDY: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. People, get out.


CASEY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go away. Go away.


CINDY: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die. Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby.

CASEY: Oh, my god. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What can you tell us, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing right now. You heard the attorneys. Come on, back up. Let her.

PADILLA: Back up. Come on, give her a break.


LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace and there it was, the big day of drama.

And if I understood, Leonard, correctly a few minutes ago, you were trying to make the point that the chain of custody with the car is all messed up and compromised.

Richard Herman, as a defense attorney, would you challenge that, the business with the car and the dogs and all of this?

HERMAN: Pat, you know that we`d challenge that. Absolutely.

LALAMA: Yes, I know, I had to ask, right?

HERMAN: Yes. And you know the house, too. I mean the house -- the crime scene`s been corrupted anyway. They`ve had media walk through there. They`d had a million people walking in that house since she came home today.

So please, you challenge a chain of custody, absolutely, on that car.

LALAMA: John Lucich, what about that? I mean is everything compromised now?

LUCICH: No, absolutely not. In fact, the chain of custody does not include the towing company, OK? When cops take that into the possession and they sign those documents, that`s when the chain of custody begins. It`s not when everybody touches the car beforehand.

Hey, can a crime scene be corrupted? Absolutely. But it has nothing to do with the chain of custody, whatsoever. And these guys are not going to have an issue with that.

LALAMA: Mark Williams, what`s the latest on the investigation and the search for Caylee?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, as we`ve documented in the past, Pat, the search -- the on ground search has not been going on for the past couple of days just due to the fact that we`ve had Tropical Storm Fay, really, hang over the area for a while.

However, they are back in their offices working the phone, working the 1300 tips they`ve received over the past month or so, Pat.

LALAMA: Laurence Kobilinsky, I`m watching that downpour down there in Florida and I can`t help but think, you know, if there were something to salvage, evidence wise, you know, it may be washed away. That`s a possibility, right?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Absolutely. I think if there`s any kind of evidence or anything biological out there -- we`re talking about temperature, humidity, bacteria, fungi -- all of these environmental factors can compromise any evidence.

And anything out there -- remember, she`s been missing quite a long time at this point. So a lot -- there`s a lot of questions about whether anything can be salvaged if it`s out there in the field.

LALAMA: You know, Leonard Padilla, you have professed your belief that, you know, that Caylee is alive and that there`s the truth -- well, it will come out and, you know, all of this will be resolved and that perhaps Casey just made some silly mistake and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

But this is a woman who cannot stop lying. This is a woman who said she spoke to her daughter for one minute, not all that long ago. But there`s absolutely no record of that.

Where is your faith? From where -- from where does your faith, you know, reveal itself?

PADILLA: I`m not as sick as some of these other people that want to find her dead.

LALAMA: Well, I don`t know if that`s the case. I think.

PADILLA: Of course it is.

LALAMA: Leonard, people.

PADILLA: Why don`t take me positive? Have any other going out.

LALAMA: People are legitimately suspicious about a woman who will take a lie to the tenth degree.

PADILLA: Oh come one. There`s always.

LALAMA: Come on.

PADILLA: You know the easiest way to solve a case sometimes is not to be suspicious of the obvious. I mean, my god, if the cops had evidence, they`d have booked her on a murder or a manslaughter charge.

LALAMA: Bethany.

PADILLA: They haven`t done that.

LALAMA: Bethany Marshall, thank God for you, because I know I`m not crazy about this. Here is a woman who is a -- she`s got a cop and a nurse for parents and she`s a high school dropout.

How does that happen? She`s no real steady employment. How does that happen? Who`s paying her bills? Are you telling me her parents didn`t know how screwed up her life was? She claims the father of the child never knew that she was pregnant.

Oh real nice. Perhaps that family had -- you know they had a right to know that child existed. She claims the father died in a car crash and nobody knows where to find the rest the family. She`s lied to authorities. She`s taken them to the ends of hell saying I work her and then turned around and going no, I really don`t.

You know, come on. What are we dealing with here?

MARSHALL: It is a complex question. You know it`s easy to blame the mother and father and to try to draw a direct link, but researchers showing that if someone has anti-social or sociopathic personality, that sometimes they have what we call autonomic under arousal, meaning they don`t have as much anxiety as you and I do about getting into trouble.

And how the conscience forms is that when we`re little kids and we do naughty things and our mother gets mad at us, we become anxious that the mother will withdraw her love.

But if you`re born biologically with lower amounts of anxiety, so you`re not anxious about the mother withdrawing her love, what is there to cause the conscience to form? What is there to, then, help you bond to other people and to have a sense of wrongdoing in the world? What is there to form anxiety about where your daughter is when your daughter gets lost?

So the question of how someone gets to be this way, I think we should not rush to blame the parents. I think they`re probably really having a.

LALAMA: Bethany, I`m not.

MARSHALL: . eye-opening.

LALAMA: Hold on. I`m not blaming the parents. I just want to know, you know, the lies. The lies. The lies. There`s something very, very deep seeded.


LALAMA: . in the continuing lies and you can`t deny it.

MARSHALL: Perhaps I`m speaking to myself because I always try to take a look at what happened in the family, but it`s not always so linear and causal.

In terms of the lies, she also may have something of what we call verbal aphasia. Verbal aphasia is when there`s not the deep emotions behind the words. An example would be when the BTK killer said in court, "I comforted my victim before I strangled her," we`re like, huh, what does that mean?

It`s because comfort does not carry the same meaning that it did for him as it does for us. When she sat in the jailhouse phone calls, whoa, whoa, whoa, don`t you think I`m concerned about my daughter, or something like that, the word concern may not have the same emotional depth for her that it does for us.

LALAMA: But well -- well, clearly not, because, John Lucich, when I hear a girlfriend crying, you know, I`m so worried about Casey and she goes, oh, my god, you know, it`s such a waste to call at this house, I understand that people grieve differently.

I know not everybody does it Italian style like I do. But what I`m saying is, I don`t know. How do you discount such a lack of emotion when you`re baby`s gone?

LUCICH: I agree with you. I believe that everybody in America cares more about this missing baby than Casey does.

And, Mr. Padilla, by the way, suspicion solves crimes, not taking a positive attitude.


LALAMA: You know, I`ve got to ask Robert Dick. It`s going to be a long haul for you, protecting this woman under these circumstances.

What happens tomorrow?

DICK: Just keeping the nuts that are out there away from her.

LALAMA: How do you do that? You say you`ve gotten threats. Leonard says he`s gotten threats. She`s getting threats. How the heck do you protect these people?

DICK: One day a time. Make sure nobody gets to them.

LALAMA: Leonard?

PADILLA: You just have to look 180 degrees constantly and make sure that the pizza man is actually delivering a pizza that was ordered by the house and not some cook that wrote, you know, Stacy, murder me.

LALAMA: But you`re going to be in that vicinity near -- in and around that house all the time?

PADILLA: 100 percent of the time.

LALAMA: Richard Herman, defense attorney, what would be your next move as an attorney?

HERMAN: I`m ready for trial. I mean, I think I`d waive discovery. I wouldn`t make any motions. You want to go to trial November 17th, let`s do it. I want to go to trial in this case. I don`t.

LALAMA: Michele -- go ahead.

HERMAN: I`m sorry.

LALAMA: Michelle, Suskauer, go ahead, Michelle.

SUSKAUSER: I`m sorry, Richard, you know, I agree with you on most things, but waiving discovery? Absolutely not. Show me what you got. Sure, we`re going to trial. But the fact of the matter is she has a trial that is not around anymore.

So -- you know the state`s going to be arguing, hey, guess what? That`s neglect. That`s some abuse. So, you know, they`re -- but the whole point is, Pat, is that they wanted to try to put as much pressure as they could on her so that then they could broker a deal.

Show me where the baby is. If there`s a body, God forbid, and we`re going to waive the death penalty. And that`s what the state was hoping for. It`s not going to happen anymore.

LALAMA: And let`s just pray and hope that somehow Caylee is out there and we can bring her back and give this one a rest.

Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Jevon Jordan, 32, from Norfolk, Virginia, killed in Iraq, on a second tour of duty. He was dedicated to country and family. He loved the military and living the American dream. He leaves behind grieving widow Michelle and four children.

Jevon Jordan, a true American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.

Thanks, Nancy.

See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern, and until then, have a great evening.